Elon Musk Backs Epic in Fight Against Apple Over App Store Fees (twitter.com) 80
Epic, which sued Apple last year and has expressed concerns about the exorbitant fees the iPhone-maker charges on App Store (30% on each transaction on year 1 for apps that are not games and 15% on year 2 and beyond), has found a new backer in the court of public opinion: Elon Musk. In a tweet Friday, Musk likened Apple's App Store charges to "a de facto global tax on the Internet." He added, "Epic is right."
Epic CEO Tim Sweeney added today: The Apple Tax is far more pernicious than many realize. "It only applies to digital goods accessible on iOS," they say -- but in the future all physical goods will have a digital presence, and Apple will tax and gatekeep world commerce. Apple must be stopped.
Friday's remarks follows Musk sniping at Apple during an earnings call earlier this week. From that story: Apple's walled garden is facing scrutiny from lawmakers and other companies, including in an antitrust trial that took place earlier this year after it was sued by Epic Games over App Store fees and policies. "I think we do want to emphasize that our goal is to support the advent of sustainable energy," Musk said in response to a question about letting competitors use its charger network. "It is not to create a walled garden and use that to bludgeon our competitors which is used by some companies." Musk then faked a cough and said, "Apple."
Epic CEO Tim Sweeney added today: The Apple Tax is far more pernicious than many realize. "It only applies to digital goods accessible on iOS," they say -- but in the future all physical goods will have a digital presence, and Apple will tax and gatekeep world commerce. Apple must be stopped.
Friday's remarks follows Musk sniping at Apple during an earnings call earlier this week. From that story: Apple's walled garden is facing scrutiny from lawmakers and other companies, including in an antitrust trial that took place earlier this year after it was sued by Epic Games over App Store fees and policies. "I think we do want to emphasize that our goal is to support the advent of sustainable energy," Musk said in response to a question about letting competitors use its charger network. "It is not to create a walled garden and use that to bludgeon our competitors which is used by some companies." Musk then faked a cough and said, "Apple."
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For the sake of comparison, what is the percentage taken by credit card companies? If they take 10%, then it means Apple is "only" taking 20% for themselves.
Re:Of course Epic is right (Score:4, Informative)
Its generally at or under 3%.
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The credit card companies do not do processing.
That is companies like Chase or FIS or Stripe.
The processor receives the request from a merchant with the CC info and reach out to the association (Visa/MC/AMEX/Discover) and ask for approval.
The processor tells the merchant to either accept or reject the purchase.
If accepted the processor gives some money to the association, some money to the name on the card (Citbank/Bank of America/Wachovia, etc) a
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ACH is not in the loop of a debit card transaction and doesn't share in the interchange fees. At the end of the day the involved banks settle with each other over ACH though, but that's got nothing to do with individual transactions.
The whole point of debit networks is to clear a transaction in seconds, which ACH doesn't do, it takes days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
but apple takes 30% on stuff sold that is not in a (Score:2)
but apple takes 30% on stuff sold that is not in app use and with an car do you really want to pay 30% more for gas / power fill up's?, XM radio and or OnStar like add ones
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So the solution is simple, don't buy an iphone if you don't want to spend 30% more for stuff.
If an app genuinely adds enough value to owning a smartphone, then iPhone users will either switch platforms for it or else pay more for their platform of choice.
If it does not, then how is the developer who wants Apple to reduce their commission structure being any less greedy than Apple for having that commission structure in the first place?
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Well, our hosting provider takes a lot less than 1% and payment processor takes 1.25%.
And we do not need promoition by Apple.
We would be fully happy to pay 2% payment fee or 1.25% payment and 20 eur/month hosting fee to Apple for a solution where the only way that anyone finds our app is by specific link or search for app name. You know like we get with combination of our payment processor, Google search and our hosting provider.
Consoles are also a rip off.
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We would be fully happy to pay 2% payment fee or 1.25% payment and 20 eur/month hosting fee to Apple for a solution where the only way that anyone finds our app is by specific link or search for app name.
That totally discounts the value that Apple has proving users that can easily purchase whatever you are selling in a single click, and find it if they use search in the system or in the App Store... the value of that is far from zero.
I'm not saying it should be 30%, but I am saying it is VASTLY more than a
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If what you say is true, and Apple's 30% tax is VERY reasonable, then people will continue to use it and pay Apple that money for these services.
The reality is, Apple knows what it offers isn't worth 30% and is why they are fighting tooth and nail against allowing other options because if they did allow other options, no one would use it. They have MacOS and the MacOS store to show that they just aren't worth i
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>Then all Apple would have to do is allow side-loading apps, would fix the problem in a heart beat.
>
>If what you say is true, and Apple's 30% tax is VERY reasonable, then people will continue to use it and pay Apple that money for these services.
Indeed. I am sure that some would find it reasonable, given that setting up payment structures is kind of a pain.. But 95% would likely switch.
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Well, we would not care how it is implemented, side loading like Android, just download and install like Windows or whatever, as long we would not have to pay the stupidy high fees.
As for search: We do not pay Google a single cent and yet people can and do seach in Google for our product and find the download link for other platforms. Thus, yes it has value, but given that the competition gives that value for the price of showing ads to the searcher. The App store does it too, it shows also competing apps w
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You do the math.
Re: Of course Epic is right (Score:2)
Profit margin of the App Store is estimated to be around 75%, and it pulls in north of 20 billion a year.
You do the math.
Estimated? By who, exactly?
Citation, please!
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Estimated? By who, exactly?
Whom. It's "by whom"
Honestly, I incorrectly corrected myself. I originally had it as "whom".
But my question still stands there, tapping its proverbial foot...
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There are several estimates and analyses out there from people of varying levels of credibility. It's the nature of a high-revenue item on a publicly traded corporation's bottom line.
It says that Apple contested this particular analysis, though provided no clarification beyond "We spend billions in research" (Which is not relevant, unless we're talking about their ability to engage in hollywood accounting, which every corporation does)
Ultimately, this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
Y
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Here's one. [marketwatch.com]
There are several estimates and analyses out there from people of varying levels of credibility. It's the nature of a high-revenue item on a publicly traded corporation's bottom line.
It says that Apple contested this particular analysis, though provided no clarification beyond "We spend billions in research" (Which is not relevant, unless we're talking about their ability to engage in hollywood accounting, which every corporation does)
Ultimately, this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
You really think it costs that much to operate a digital store? Billions?
No. No it doesn't.
Really? Then just how much does it cost?
Those megalithic Data Centers don't just pop up out of the ground on their own, do they?
That bandwidth isn't free, is it?
And that's just a few of the costs.
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Those megalithic Data Centers don't just pop up out of the ground on their own, do they?
They don't. I'm part of the team that operates 6 of them, so I'm perfectly aware of their costs.
That bandwidth isn't free, is it?
Eh, it's close. Real close.
And that's just a few of the costs.
No, those were a few pieces of spaghetti thrown at the wall by someone who has no idea what they're talking about.
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Yes, and if they cut the commission in half they would still have a (reasonable) 50% margin. Looked at a different way, their costs are only 25% transaction fees, so developers doing their own payment processing should only see a drop in fees of 7-8 percentage points.
Apple was stupid here. They should have realized their margins put them at risk and reduced the commission in small increments over time. Instead, they look greedy.
That said I like my purchases being handled by Apple’s payment network
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I think Apple got a bit ballsy here, and I imagine there were many discussions in board rooms with lawyers discussing how close they were to antitrust legal jeopardy.
They've put a lot of effort into putting things in place that almost force any definition of relevant market to include nobody but them.
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Re: Of course Epic is right (Score:1)
I wonder how much it costs to get an app onto a Tesla car. How much did Disney pay to access that hardware?
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And... who cares? (Score:2)
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-Working as designed.
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Those fees apply to in-app purchases as well. Tesla sells a $10,000 FSD upgrade though their app, as well as other upgrades. To open the Tesla Supercharging network to other users, they will be using the app to pay.
The obvious solution is to give android users a 30% discount.
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Because Musk is a narcist and attention whore.
Look at how he lied about creating PayPal when it was Confinity a year earlier.
Debunking : Elon Musk Part 1 [youtu.be]
=== PayPal Timeline ===
Dec. 1998 Confinity was started by Peter Thiel, Max Levchin, and Luke Nosek. Peter Theil becomes CEO.
Jan. 1999 Musk starts X.com
July 1999 Confinity announces PayPal
Sept. 1999 Confinity ships PayPal. Offers $10 deposit for new users. X.Com copies the idea of gifting $20 to new users.
Mar. 2000 Confinity and X.com merge. New company'
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Re: And... who cares? (Score:2)
Because the worst kept secret on earth is that Apple is making an electric car so anything Elon can do to hurt Apple directly benefits Tesla.
Ding Ding Ding!
We have a winner!!!
Worst kept secret (Score:2)
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I agree they are making an electric car, I disagree it's not a well kept secret though.
Everyone keeps pretending they are making a self driving car which happens to be electric ... when the self driving is just a ruse, sure they are spending some money on that too, but it's just a distraction.
They are going to market an electric car, it won't be self driving (ie. level 4+).
Fuck Elon (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do we have to hear news about Elon's bullshit? Elon does not have a dog in this fight, he opinion is not important here. Elon is clearly in it for himself, in Elon's mind its either him or Apple that will get your dollars and Elon wants those dollars as much as Apple. There is no gift here, its not about you saving money its about who profits from you. Of course Elon wants the profits for himself. Fuck that guy.
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Elon is clearly in it for himself, in Elon's mind its either him or Apple that will get your dollars and Elon wants those dollars as much as Apple.
Congratulations; you've just discovered the benefits of competition!
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Tesla cars are locked down hard. If you try to fix one they remotely disable rapid charging capability. They have their own "app store" for the car, and it's a walled garden that's even more restrictive than Apple's.
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People: I believe the celerity because I like him/her!
Famous tech guru gives an opinion outside his field of expertise.
People: This guy needs to shut up. His opinion doesn't matter!
I see the blatant double-standard in high school where the opinions of popular kids mattered, while those of nerds didn't, is alive and well in the real world.
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Nice strawman.
Plenty of people tell celebrities that express opinions outside their field of expertise to STFU as well. Just starting with the fact any time a celebrity expresses a political opinion, a gazillion people will get all butt hurt that they dare to interfere in politics.
Musk needs to back off twitter. (Score:3)
For his companies actually hire a PR department so we and the press can get a timely consistent straight answer, for any press release questions, especially if the answer requires more detail than what you can put in a Tweet.
Fine he has a side against Wall Gardens, as he seem to be aligned with Epics point of view. However one of Tesla's KEY (I so intended that pun) features is how ones Cell phone quite often the iPhone is the key to their cars. It may not necessarily be useful for Tesla to seem like they are taking an active stance on Apple Legal battle.
While Apple has a good history of being encapsulated with dealing with competing self interests. Who is to say, some Middle Manager on the Apple App store, decides to force the uninstall of the Tesla App from its phones, locking people out of their cars.
Sure you can argue that this is the Flaw in Apple Walled Garden, or a Flaw with Tesla over reliance of technology. But sometime it isn't worth it to get you ding in, and just others fight it out.
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Scary how little thought went into designing for manufacture. You'd think they'd take a tiny bit of time and purpose design the scaffolding and affixed ladders.
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Which means the people working in it are likely that much more valuable.
No fucking way working like that is a profitable risk to take compared to spending a little more designing proper scaffolding, with non overlapping planks, with toe boards, with secured ladders with proper step off.
Terrifying (Score:5, Insightful)
The real terrifying statement is that one from the Epic guy about "in the future all physical goods will have a digital presence."
Please, no.
On the flip side, maybe some of us can take advantage of the demand for "disconnected goods" that will inevitably arise in that kind of world.
Who listens to Musk on this stuff? (Score:3)
Musk has really changed the world when it comes to cars and space travel. He's proven the naysayers wrong in both areas and I would accept that he is an expert in them. But getting into a bun fight with Apple over app store fees doesn't do anything to a) help change the situation (I can see Cook becoming more entrenched in the issue) and b) help his standing overall.
Maybe there are some gamers out there who are pumping their fists thinking that Musk is fighting the good fight but for the rest of us...
Musk is just trying to get/keep his name in the news and meh.
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Musk has really changed the world when it comes to cars and space travel. He's proven the naysayers wrong in both areas and I would accept that he is an expert in them. But getting into a bun fight with Apple over app store fees doesn't do anything to a) help change the situation (I can see Cook becoming more entrenched in the issue) and b) help his standing overall.
Maybe there are some gamers out there who are pumping their fists thinking that Musk is fighting the good fight but for the rest of us...
Musk is just trying to get/keep his name in the news and meh.
From the story, it just sounds like he mentioned Apple in a tongue-in-cheek way when he was talking about his electric charger network.
It doesn't seem like he was seeking attention for some off-hand comment, some in the media are just taking the comment and writing whole stories about it.
If anything, the tech press hanging breathlessly on every word uttered by Elon Musk ultimately has more to do with them and their behavior than it does with him.
What would happen if companies removed their apps? (Score:1)
Would Apple cave?
Would these companies cave?
Would Apple sue that those companies are colluding?
I hope we find out someday. I need a good laugh at the expense of billionaires fighting.
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What would happen? We would all be much better off.
Do you think that soul-sucking garbage is essential?
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He's just salty that he didn't think to take 30% (Score:3)
What is this guy's problem? (Score:1)
Seriously. Does anyone know why Musk has this huge grudge against Apple? Why he's always trying to challenge Tim Cook to a dick measuring contest? Apple isn't even technically a competitor to Tesla (yet?) but he seems to go out of his way to talk shit about Apple at every opportunity. This seems very personal for Musk and it makes me curious who pissed in his cheerios.
About the sixty percent you happily piss away (Score:2)
Those that bitch and moan about Apple getting 30% for hosting, providing tools, a storefront,
and frictionless transactions do not seem to have any problem spending hundreds on gaming assets.
All that money for some low resolution bitmaps, some simple geometry, and animation scripts. Dumb.
In-app spending with Epic and siding with whoever is promoting this just makes you an all day sucker.
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or the in-car Tesla app store
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Consoles are a healthier market and not part of an interconnected web of hardware and services slowly expanding to all consumer electronics, unlike iOS/MacOS and Android/ChromeOS. Android already allows sideloading and user certificates (though very user unfriendly for the moment) and have already committed to streamlining support for third party app stores on Android 12 (mostly to make Apple look bad of course, which Apple does). Valve has a ton of competition.
Apple is busy forming the most all encompassin
Elon to Announce Third Party Apps for Tesla Cars (Score:1)
The fact that Elon supports Epic reveals that Tesla will soon open up Tesla cars to third-party apps. We shall see what % Elon will tax.
Present day cars are constrained by software from the car manufacturers, just like "smart phones" of 2007. Subsequently third party apps were permitted to be installed on these "phones" which greatly expanded the utility of these devices. When Tesla opens up their "smart cars" to third party apps, as the phone manufacturer have done, diverse and rich library of automotive
Systemic rent == tax (Score:2)
Elon’s Tesla Supercharging network taught how sandboxing works, network gaming effects and user access rent as systemic. On Epic’s lawsuit what Apple’s AppStore amounts to - see:
https://shorttakes.substack.co... [substack.com]
There is legitimate access fee. And there is cashflow that surmounts access into systemic rent. Monopoly does not guarantee rent that captures the user, developer, content, context, infrastructure and the industry.
Elon reduces Apple AppStore charges down to their ultimate affect th
Tax on the internet (Score:3)
Musk likened Apple's App Store charges to "a de facto global tax on the Internet."
Sorry, but he's not smart. There are far more, cheaper, and easier ways to access the internet than through an Apple product. That, and apps != the internet. Musk is a charismatic figurehead. He remind me of Trump. Loud, says dumb things occasionally, and is buoyed by his fanboy base. His expertise stop at regurgitating sci-fi themes and giving sexy names to technology invented decades ago.
Then there's this:
https://cleantechnica.com/2020... [cleantechnica.com]
Last year...Tesla CEO Elon Musk and CFO Zachary Kirkhorn opened up about the possibility of monetizing some of the lower hanging fruit in the software world via an app store, “or whatever.”
So charge more for the iOS versions. (Score:1)
Elon would probably badmouth Apple... (Score:2)
Elon would probably badmouth Apple if they cured cancer and solve global warming. Apple is looking at entering the self-driving car market and that has Elon running scared.
MSDN subscriptions (Score:2)
Supercharger Network (Score:1)
So can I take advantage of the Tesla supercharger network to replenish my Chevy Bolt, or is Musk a bloviating hypocrite?
Never mind. I already know the answer.
I like Musk a little less every day. (Score:2)
You want to change the world with electric cars? You're the hero.
You want to take us to Mars? You're my idol.
You want to build flamethrower toys? Errr okay.
You want to make tunnels in Las Vegas? Umm sure, but... I thought you were changing the world...
You want to promote bitcoin? Go piss off. We don't need that kind of bullshit.
You want to promote another rich arsehole who throws a temper tantrum that they are entitled to something someone else has built, simply because they attempted to build it themselves
How is Tesla any different? (Score:2)
I'm really late to this story so this comment will probably not be picked up, but how is what Tesla does any different than Apple? Tesla does not allow any outside developers to produce software. Only Tesla can do that. Tesla charges exorbitant fees to have said software uploaded to your car to enable features.
I realize there is a difference between developing for a phone and for a car, but in principle both companies are doing the same thing: limiting who can produce software and extracting a hefty fee