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Portables (Apple) Apple

Apple Tweaks Its Troubled MacBook Keyboard Design Yet Again, Expands Repair Program (theverge.com) 122

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Apple is announcing an update to its keyboard repair program today. All MacBooks with the so-called "butterfly mechanism" (that's pretty much all modern MacBooks) will now be fully eligible for Apple's Keyboard Service Program. From a report: The expansion means that a few newer models that weren't previously covered will be able to get repairs. Unfortunately, Apple is not extending how long that program lasts -- it's still "4 years after the first retail sale of the unit." Apple is also announcing that it has created yet another iteration of its butterfly keyboard, which will ship on the new MacBook Pros. It also promises that it will speed up keyboard repair times. You will not be able to just take your MacBook in to have its keyboard replaced if you don't trust it, of course; it will need to exhibit issues for Apple to fix it. Apple has been put through the wringer over the reliability of its butterfly keyboards for the past few years, and rightly so. Although the company stressed again in a call today that the "vast majority" of customers don't have a problem, all too many of them have had issues with stuck keys that could cause double letters or no letters at all.
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Apple Tweaks Its Troubled MacBook Keyboard Design Yet Again, Expands Repair Program More

Apple Tweaks Its Troubled MacBook Keyboard Design Yet Again, Expands Repair Program

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  • What about battery bloat? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by yorgasor ( 109984 ) <ron@@@tritechs...net> on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:26PM (#58631046) Homepage

    My team at work has 5 people on it. Three of us got 15" Macbook Pros in 2015/2016 and all three of us have had to send our laptops in for repairs because the batteries expanded and bent the case out of shape. I'm really not a fan of internal batteries where expansion ruins the entire laptop rather than just a simple popping the battery out and replacing it.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      DDDoonnt woory, thhhhe vvvasst maaaajjjjorrty of cuuusstomerrrs dddoont avvvveee thhhhis pppprrobblllemm...

      • Re: What about battery bloat? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Cmdln Daco ( 1183119 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:57PM (#58631284)

        So much for Macs having a strong resale value. Any older Macbook with these keyboards in it is a ticking time bomb. Apple has just defined the shelf life to be four years.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Swelling batteries will happen to all laptops given enough time.

      Although Apple has a serious problem with its batteries that are well within their service life. I have had a 2012 and late 2013 15" MBP that have had their batteries swell and the health of the battery was above 85%. These machines are plugged in most of the day and I rarely used the battery. Meanwhile, my late 2013 13" MBP doesn't have any battery issue. Apple should have indicators in the case that the battery is swelling and reports this i

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Swelling batteries will happen to all laptops given enough time.

        Oh really? Well, maybe in the land of Apple, but I've never had any of my Sony, iBM, Lenovo, HP, nor Toshiba laptops in the past suffer from swelling batteries.

        I think the big problem is that Apple tried to be the "hippest" on the block by slimming down their laptops so thin. To do that, you have to switch to Lithium polymer type batteries that are basically enclosed in a soft pouch. All the laptops I've ever owned used battery packs made of 18650 Li-Ion batteries instead of Li-polymer. 18650's have a prett

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by sabri ( 584428 )

          I've never had any of my Sony, iBM, Lenovo, HP, nor Toshiba laptops in the past suffer from swelling batteries.

          I've had several HP probooks and HP elitebooks suffer from swelling batteries. The only good thing with HP is that there was no metal casing and the batteries expanded downward, allowing for a simple battery replacement instead of ruining the whole laptop.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          That's because most laptops of the past used cylindrical batteries which can withstand the pressure changes from normal use better. Now everyone is switching to prismatic style cells for their thinness so they can fit into these thin machines. Prismatic cells are basically a lithium cell inside a mylar bag. It has absolutely no resistance to the pressure changes of normal use, other than the case of whatever it is inserted into keeping things in check. The cases aren't designed with this in mind, so the pri

      • That's quite possible. So design the fucking things so the battery can be easily replaced by the end-user, and design it so a panel on the bottom deforms when the battery swells without damaging the entire laptop.

        Note that neither of those two things require an actually "removable" battery. One that's under a screwed-on or clipped-on bottom panel would also work fine. If a consumable part like a battery takes > 5 minutes to replace, the product is likely not worth the money.

      • Swelling batteries will happen to all laptops given enough time.

        Bull-fucking-shit.

        • Swelling batteries will happen to all laptops given enough time.

          Bull-fucking-shit.

          Well, the universe is expanding, so, given a few million years...

      • Talked to a person who works at a company with 10,000 Thinkpads. Not one swollen battery.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        I had a 2008 MacBook have the battery swell. I popped the bottom, dropped the battery, put in a new one, and that was that. When my 2015 MacBook Pro battery swelled up, it bent the keyboard. Thankfully I had AppleCare and was within weeks of the warranty expiring, so I pretty much got a new laptop.

        Yes, Apple did make things better, but with the price increases, the drop of features, issues like the video cable, keyboard, as well as the fact that T2 Macs lock out Linux from accessing the built in SSD, my

        • I had a 2008 MacBook have the battery swell. I popped the bottom, dropped the battery, put in a new one, and that was that. When my 2015 MacBook Pro battery swelled up, it bent the keyboard. Thankfully I had AppleCare and was within weeks of the warranty expiring, so I pretty much got a new laptop.

          Yes, Apple did make things better, but with the price increases, the drop of features, issues like the video cable, keyboard, as well as the fact that T2 Macs lock out Linux from accessing the built in SSD, my next "MacBook Pro" will be a 14" Dell Latitude 7480 which will be 2/3 the price, and the same functionality. I like macOS, but I don't trust Apple anymore, and Dell will give me a five year, next day onsite warranty.

          So just install OSX on it and dual boot or in a VM. It's kind of fun playing around with a hackintosh.

      • Swelling batteries will happen to all laptops given enough time.

        Baloney.

        I'd had lots of laptops, some of them in service for 10+ years and none of them has ever had a battery swell. Not one.

        Some were heavily used, some just loafed along, some saw mixed usage, but none of them ever had a battery swell up. I've worn out batteries (Dell, Gateway, Lenovo) and none of them ever swelled.

        Stop spreading misinformation. This is a manufacturer problem, not a battery problem.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by sjames ( 1099 )

        I have a few very old (non Apple) laptops and their batteries are conspicuously not swollen. I also have a number of single LiIon cells that are years old that are not swollen.

        Batteries that repeatedly exceed their design limits swell. Minor swelling becomes a major problem when appropriate accommodations for the condition are not made.

        So, pushing the limits based on begrudging a mm or two. Form over function. A terrible trait in technical gear.

      • "These machines are plugged in most of the day..."

        What I understand is that this is terrible for battery longevity. The battery will continuously charge and discharge between 98 and 100%, which is the worst zone to be in for lithium-ion. Ideally you want to stay out of the top and bottom 20%, and aim for full charge cycles. They should also not be stored full or empty long-term. I forget what the ideal state is for storage, I think 60%. If anyone has a link to the study I'm thinking of, please post.

        If
    • And, sadly, other devices like Smurfaces are slavishly copying Apple's glued-together designs. Smurface is actually worse since the battery is behind the screen. When the battery swells, the entire screen can be pushed out or crack.
    • The 2011 MBP had the dying GPU problem. Is there ANY Macbook product that HASN'T needed a repair program?

  • Apple deal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:33PM (#58631084)
    A $4000 laptop that has no exceptional parts, no exceptional power that you can use for 5 years tops. That almost sounds like the same deal you get with AitPods.

    • I understood the use life of Airpods to be 18 months

    • And no ability to upgrade RAM or SSD, so you have to buy RAM and storage at Apple's inflated prices, then buy another laptop at extortionate price instead of being able to upgrade. Yay for planned obsolescence!
    • The problem is Apple is a software company and their software is the best. You might say it sucks, but Apple has hit the sweet spot for device integration, privacy, usability. I was at a bar the other day, tried to get on the WiFi, and a prompt popped up on my friendâ(TM)s phone asking if they wanted to share the password with my device. That's pretty damn slick. I understand they're gouging is on hardware prices, locking us in to their own ecosystem, but for my day to day use I don't want a discount F
      • The other day I needed Configurator 2. To get it I had to upgrade the OS. Then I had to upgrade XCode and then my iOS. That is crap integration. Now i'll talk about Bluetooth. It works correctly around half the time. I've had it speed up the sound, slow down the sound, just stop requiring me to reboot the laptop before it would connect again. My external monitor, yes it is the el-cheapo LG but the monitor works fine on my thinkpad yet requires 10 attempts every time I plug it into my mac. Often the

      • The problem is Apple is a software company and their software is the best.

        Really? Perhaps you forgot about how Apple repeated failed to develop an OS that would stay up without crashing and was finally forced to bring in one from outside that worked reliably. Apple internal software development capability is pure crap. On the other hand, Apple is the best at spin and astroturfing, no argument there.

      • The problem is Apple is a software company and their software is the best.

        What utter nonsense. Their UI has some severely retarded features that have no reason to exist. Alt-Tab, the DipStick(tm) dock, and some of the text selection behavior is just nonsensial.

        I hate to say it, but Win7 was a pretty solid bit of software. I detest Microsoft but have to give credit where it's due. Some recent Linux variants come close, very close, but not quite.

        My last office was all Mac, all the time. And everyone had problems with the Macbook Pro. It's a dog with a few good features but a dog no

    • Here is the irony: I can buy a Dell laptop, a Latitude with Pro Support Plus. macOS excepted, It actually is a better MacBook Pro than Apple's offerings. More ports, more usable items, better security, and five years of next day onsite support. In ages past, I used to scoff at Dells, but while Apple has been lackluster with boondoggles like video cables, T2 chips blocking Linux from the onboard drive, and the keyboard issues, Dell has been quietly getting better and making something worth using. If not

      • Sound good, except I rather hated magsafe in my 2009 laptop. It would come unplugged just from having it on my lap in bed. USB-C isn't much better, mine are worn out enough that cables slip out on their own. I don't know why they just woulnd't stick with USB-A

  • Damage control rather than responsible initiative (Score:5, Interesting)

    by postbigbang ( 761081 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:40PM (#58631140)

    Instead of getting in front of the problem, once again, Apple lagged and alienated a wide, FORMERLY loyal consumers. Not all of us are made of money, Apple.

    Now that you're realizing that revenues are flattening is NOT the time to screw your clientele. There is a customer service minion that needs to be taken out back, then spanked, and spanked hard.

    You won't fire them because your legal dept doesn't like visible litigation. You won't transfer them because they have juggled so many tasks that people become very difficult to replace, and who wants to live where a janitor has $14K/annum after insane housing costs?

    The pain in the ass keyboard problem bit me. Now I use other stuff, and other operating environments/dynastic stockholder gravy trains.

    Fuck you, Apple. You're just like the rest of them-- soulless.

    • Re:Damage control rather than responsible initiati (Score:4, Interesting)

      by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @12:43PM (#58631186)
      I would love to avoid iOS all together in my business, but unfortunately my partners like app sales so I have no choice but to use a Mac. With Android you can buy a $200 used laptop install Linux and start coding, but nooo not Apple. That would be hurtful to them.
      • Technically, can't you run stolen OS X on commodity hardware? (Not that it would be legal and there are liability risks, of course.)
        • Yes but the versions on OSX are so tightly interlocked. The other day I wanted to use Configurator 2 which is basically am iphone file copy utility. In order to install it I had to upgrade the OS to Mojave, which triggered XCode which needed new IOS on my phone. You run into that on a hackintosh and you could be down for days and I can't afford that.

        • Technically, can't you run stolen OS X on commodity hardware?

          Only if zeroes and ones can, in fact, be stolen... did you mean to say "lost sales?" They can't lose a sale they're not willing to make...

        • If its for a business like he said that is a total non-starter.

      • There are a million+ used laptops on pcliquidators, fleabay, govdeals, etc etc. I found one I liked, and did not look back.

        Yeah, I poured coffee on it. Replacement keyboard cost $44 new and had under 10 screws to replace it. NOT 108 screws with a special tool and screwhead. Not the $400+ Apple wanted, not counting two weeks.

        Lenovo, HP, Acer, Dell..... the choices are many when you can buy three laptops (built with extra memory) for under the price of one keyboard repair. I like Apple's designs, which look p

        • Some supermodels also look pretty on the outside, until you get to their personality, their diet habits, and their raging cocaine habit.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Tim, are you listening? I doubt it. Steve would've dropped the ego, screamed, fired, and lit fires under people until the problem was fixed and the distribution was done, the licks taken, and moved on.

        It takes guts to admit you're wrong, then fix it with a smile, and move on. Mr Cook, you are no Steve Jobs. Shame on you for the hassle you've put people through, and don't start diminishing the number of people that just walked away quiet instead of LOUDLY.

        Instead, buck up, make it right, and maybe you might

  • They had such a great keyboard design (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Such a pity Apple couldn't leave well enough alone their great keyboards which were one of the best in the industry back before they foolishly decided to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Generally I believe the new design was a direct result of obsession with thin and the keyboards were just the next sacrifice for that goal. So maybe doing this on a Macbook or Macbook Air was probably not the end of the world. People would cope on a thin designed notebook you expect compromises. But to make a broken POS keyb

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Nothing new there, keyboards have been sacrificed for years on the alter of "Thin" for laptops of all companies. Even the vaunted Thinkpad line(both manufacturers) suffered the same fate with the demise of the 7 row layout and other "enhancements".

  • Unless Apple comes to their senses and starts making good hardware again, my 2015 MacBook Pro (which I love) will be the last Mac I ever own.

    • Your next Mac "keyboard" will be an iPad...

      • Your next Mac "keyboard" will be an iPad...

        I actually suspect that is basically their plan - the low travel keyboards exist mainly to train people to not see just how sucky typing on an unmoving surface really is. But, if that turns out to be the case, I will be using something else.

  • Probably something that sugary drinks and goopy crumbs will have more trouble adhering to like they were glue.

  • Boeing and Apple have something in common (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @01:48PM (#58631604)
    They're both releasing fixes for a defect they claim really isn't a defect.

  • "You will not be able to just take your MacBook in to have its keyboard replaced if you don't trust it"

    Mine goes crazy typing the letter B. Sometimes... maybe every other day it'll do it for a few hours, then start working again. You can bet it won't do it for the apple tech, and so they won't fix it for me.

    "it's still "4 years after the first retail sale of the unit."

    Great. I keep hoping my keyboard problem will become constant enough so I can schlep it down the Apple store, and have a better than even

  • With all the king's horses and all the king's men Apple can't design a charger, Apple can't design a keyboard. What else can't Apple design?

    • With all the king's horses and all the king's men Apple can't design a charger, Apple can't design a keyboard. What else can't Apple design?

      They can design stuff...just not good stuff.

      I used to like my iPad, it was decent. But last time I bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab A and I prefer it over the iPad. Wonder of wonders, it has a Micro SD Card slot. Why can't an iPad have one? The answer is, according to Apple, "FUCK YOU THAT'S WHY!"

    • The problem is the obsession with thin and light. If they can shave off 0.1mm of thickness by reducing key travel, they'll do it regardless of the possibility of keyboard issues. My wife uses a MacBook Pro, and I have tried to force myself to enjoy typing on it -- not possible. I don't care if the Chinese government is spying on me; I need something like the ThinkPad keyboard...even jiust a little bit of key bounce is a million times better than that zero-travel Mac keyboard.

      What I don't get is that all the

      • The problem is the obsession with thin and light.

        That's a symptom. The root cause is, running out of ideas.

        What I don't get is that all the hipster full-stack web developer types use MacBooks all day long. They're typing incessantly -- how do they not hate it?

        Hah, so "full-stack developer" is newspeak for "javascript monkey?" Obviously, they don't know anything better, and they don't know that they don't know anything better. And they will deny both of those facts to the ends of the earth, for that is the way with such people.

      • The one that I knew personally, kept a legitimate Cherry MX-based keyboard at her desk, and never actually used the Apple keyboard.
        Of course that totally destroys the "thinness, portability, and all-in-one elegance" that they give as the reason for the $1,000 markup...

  • Checked with 3 certified repair shops here. They will perform the warranty repair, but I need to give them the machine for 7-10 working days, minimum. Could be longer. So I'm out my primary work machine for 2+ weeks!

    Turns out they will open it and look, and *only then* order parts. I have offered them money if they will close it up again so I can keep working. Nope. I'm guessing they expect to destroy something when looking inside it.

  • CEO's only care about the next quarter. It takes years to build up trust and a reputation of reliability. But all it takes is one CEO who is only interested in this quarter's stock price to kill it off. Sell cheap crap at an inflated price and people will buy it based on your previous reputation. But once that reputation is lost, it might take decades to get it back. Ask companies like GM. Companies like Apple and Boeing are making that type of mistake right now.

  • I've heard all the ravings about these keyboards, and their issues, but I'm curious: How do these compare to the array of mechanical keyboards available now? "Butterfly mechanism" makes it sound real fancy and brings to mind images of the internals of a Cherry MX switch. I'm not sure if that's reality or an artifact of the distortion field.

    Obviously they don't measure anywhere close in reliability, but how nice are they to type on before they die?

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