Ping Could Be Apple's Social Networking Backdoor? 271
rsmiller510 writes "Could Apple's announcement about Ping, a music-based social network be Apple's social networking trojan horse? Facebook might want to be concerned." Of course it is.
Update: 09/02 19:26 GMT by T : Jamie points out this post on Daring Fireball, according to which Steve Jobs blames the non-integration on "onerous terms" suggested by Facebook.
Ping (Score:5, Funny)
ping www.apple.com
PING e3191.c.akamaiedge.net (184.84.45.15): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 184.84.45.15: icmp_seq=0 ttl=53 time=31.528 ms
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ping command largely unknown ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway "ping" already has some well established (and very specific) meaning in the computer world. I'm surprised Apple would choose that specific word for their newest gimmick. Especially since it is already loaded with such uncool, geeky history.
"Ping" has an established meaning among a very small segment of computer users. A group that is quite capable of recognizing social networking use versus networking diagnostic use. Trademarks are assigned in specific product/service classes and social networking and computer system administration are probably sufficiently distant. For example "facebook" had to be trademarked in multiple service classes: entertainment services, technological services, social services, ... FWIW "ping" is trademarked in various computer networking and service contexts and these marks are unrelated to the unix command.
Among the general population "ping" may be understood to mean getting someone's attention but if asked where the word came from you are probably more likely to get a reference to submarines and sonar than the unix utility. Wiki is merely an example of written by techies for techies, a convenient place to look up technical details. Non-technical use of "ping" does not need a reference page hence the wiki bias. Given the widely accepted definition of getting someone's attention Apple did a pretty good job at naming this feature.
Re:Ping (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, because words can have only one meaning and no more. They especially can't be used for products or company names.
Word, Tux, Oracle, Excel, Sun, Bing, Java, Gnome, Yahoo...
Wow, Apple is sure going to confuse people with this!
Eh... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm just waiting to hear borked adoption rate numbers...it is integrated into iTunes 10, after all. Internet Explorer & Windows, anyone?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I had the same thought.
Another example: that service for syncing an iPhone with your computer. iTunes won't start without that installed and running.
Re: (Score:2)
I had the same thought.
Another example: that service for syncing an iPhone with your computer. iTunes won't start without that installed and running.
Not quite true. The only way I can get iTunes to communicate with my iPod Touch 3gs is to run it once, get an error message saying "an unknown error has occurred," close it, stop the service, restart iTunes, and click past the warning dialog telling me the useless service isn't running. Every time!
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like at least someone has learned through the idiotic privacy practices of Facebook.
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, meant Google.
Geez...Facebook has become like Xerox at this point. ::slaps self::
Re: (Score:2)
Which is exactly my point. Whereas with Facebook it's opt-out, with Ping it's opt-in. Explain to me how remarking about how a company is being smart about user's privacy is the same thing as bashing them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I meant with Facebook's privacy practices. Whenever they introduce a new service that has severe privacy implications, it's always an opt-out service...it gets activated by default.
Re: (Score:2)
Duh, what? You are not automatically opted-in to Facebook. Or do we now force people to get FB accounts as soon as they get Internet service?
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, you have to go into the Ping tab and enable it, then setup your account (which is mainly 3 questions; name, music tastes, and privacy settings). iTunes doen't automatically sign you up.
Apple dug at Google for that yesterday, saying when Apple reports activation numbers for their devices, they don't count simple software updates like "our friends [at Google] do"
adoption: 180 million (Score:2)
Ping can claim 180 million user IDs. Sure most of them are not active. One can say the same about facebook as well. At least the apple one's are unique and probably actually represent more than one person (families usually have just one) where as facebook has multiple ids per person sometimes.
That does not indicate usage but it does indicate that the inertial barrier to entry and required critical mass is already overcome for this to be considered ubiquitously available. Social networks are useless if
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I dislike info sharing as much as the next /.-er, but I really would love a place to have the bands that I like listed to get reccos and updates.
Following independent musicians, gaming personalities, etc....that's pretty much why I use Twitter. I never post on it, but following certain people can be simultaneously entertaining and informative.
Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Looks to be just more bloat on an already bloated piece of software. The least they could do is modularize iTunes so that if I click a box on install I can make it so that the application is just a way to put music onto an iPod. I am sick and tired of the video and TV stuff forcing me to put Quicktime on my machine!
Re: (Score:2)
If you're using Linux, they probably don't care about you. As for being "forced" to install QuickTime, why is Python a dependency for vim-common? Same basic principle, except it appears that the majority of Apple's image rendering is somehow tied to QuickTime libraries. Tried to view a .tiff file the other day and it it opened in QuickTime. Whatever.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, I understand why you have to install the Quicktime framework with iTunes. There is however no compelling reason beyond territorium building to sneak Quicktime player and Safari in there as well.
Re: (Score:2)
I'll just remember to pass WITH_PYTHON=NO next time I need to build the port on a new FreeBSD system. Few times I've needed to install it on a Linux machine, I didn't notice because CentOS/Fedora require Python by default for Yum.
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:5, Funny)
Yep, leave it to Apple to make the simple ping command all bloated and require QuickTime, etc.
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
What the...? I think, and I noodle around a bit and discover that even when I clo
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
It's not a mistake, it's what they base their business on. The iPhone's connected to you music files, your music connected to the iTunes app, the iTunes connected to the iTunes store, now hear the word of the Jobs. It's there to make it difficult for you to, you know, switch. It's not a mistake, but they do treat the Windows platform worse than Adobe treats OS X. iTunes is to Windows what Flash is to OS X: nearly ubiquitous, but entirely shit. Perhaps so that iPod addicts will buy Macs?
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah if they shove any more crap into iTunes, they're going to have to rebrand it as iTunesOS...
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:4, Interesting)
I understand Apple concentrating talent on making it run faster in OS X but they're pissing off Windows users with a poor experience. That's not smart.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because when I look for a portal to Ping [apple.com] it seems they want me to download and install iTunes. Unless they intend to eventually make it accessible through a browser, I could see this being a bit of a problem for more than a few people. Great, you've got my credit card number if I bought something through iTMS but do you really think I'm going to wake up that memory and resource hog on my Windows partition just to get to a social networking site when I can hit Facebook through Linux or (nearly) any mobile device? I might be a small minority but that's not for me. Looks to be just more bloat on an already bloated piece of software. The least they could do is modularize iTunes so that if I click a box on install I can make it so that the application is just a way to put music onto an iPod. I am sick and tired of the video and TV stuff forcing me to put Quicktime on my machine!
You miss the point of this, well the entire article did. Ping is not there primarily to become a Facebook competitor or alternative. It's there to help highlight music sales. It's there to tell you what music your friends like, and what music your favorite artists like. Artists may treat it as a social page only to advertise their products, just as they do now in Facebook.
As far as Apple's goals are concerned, they don't care you using the tool if you are not going to be buying music. Note it does not only require you to have iTunes installed, it also requires you to have an iTunes Store account (even if it has no credit card attached.) It's all about selling.
In a way i sort of wish they extended it's functionality for app developers and book authors too.
Re: (Score:2)
I have another question: what's facebook and itunes? Am I the only one left not using those?
Re: (Score:2)
No, there are at least two of us. Also myspace and twitter.
Re: (Score:2)
You're one hepcat man.
Re: (Score:2)
hm, I am just not excited by these wonderful things to care to find what they are in the first place
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
...do you really think I'm going to wake up that memory and resource hog on my Windows partition just to get to a social networking site when I can hit Facebook through Linux or (nearly) any mobile device? I might be a small minority but that's not for me.
I came to say this as well... The author touches on it, but stops short:
Still, Ping suffers from being locked inside iTunes, although Apple was smart enough to create an access application and put it in the App Store for iPad, iPod Touch, and iPhone users.
In my opinion, Ping suffers from being locked to Apple. It will never have a life outside of making them more money, which means it is genuinely no threat to Facebook. My dad is on Facebook, for example, and will likely never, ever, ever wear a Steve Jobs turtleneck. There are many more like him as well.
I see no threat here, except to Ping towards irrelevance. And with mp3 and streaming still reigning as kings, Facebook going with
Re:Is It Only Through iTMS Application? (Score:5, Funny)
"It's Turtlenecks all the way down"
social shopping yes - social network no (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
you can't even post a link to a live video on YouTube of a song you just bought
If you bought it, it's likely that you needed to. Sending a link to copyrighted material is probably not what Apple wants.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/user/muse [youtube.com]
You know, the official pages for actual bands where they put up videos of their own concerts and songs?
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, they have entire channels on YouTube.
Backdoor my foot (Score:3, Funny)
The KILLER OF EVERYTHING...or not. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I can't say it would kill Facebook, but I could see it hurting whats left of MySpace. Who goes there for anything other than music these days? Still, I wouldn't be too worried. Apple wants you to buy those songs, not listen to them.
Re: (Score:2)
no worry for facebook (Score:3, Interesting)
So Apple will may have a competing service, and many may be happy because their data is more private, but free is more important than private. Look at home many people let google read their emails rather than paying Apple $100 a year.
Apple looks like it is going to use it's iTunes database to monetize users in an effort to offer otherwise free services to users. However, this is no different from the other free services, so that should provide no competitive advantage to either company, except for the fact that people expect to act better than facebook, even though most people whine when they have to pay to be treated better. Everyone wants a free lunch.
iTunes fee based? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is likely that most of the social networking stuff with apple will be tied to me.com or iTunes. Both of these are fee based services
iTunes is not fee based. Everything, including Ping is free until you download something, like a song or a game. Facebook has something to be worried about. Facebook's revenue stream is eyeballs on ads and if people spend more time in Ping, Facebook is losing.
Since Ping is free, the rest of your discussion doesn't make any sense. What Apple is doing is basically creating a social network, for free, to encourage sales of music through the iTunes store. Apple's vision for the longest time has been to continue to come up with more tools that encourage you to buy content. We used to think of the iTunes music store as a vehicle to drive hardware sales. It once was, but it's so big now in terms of volume I don't believe that any more. They are trying to get people to buy content so that they make money, pure and simple.
Ping & Decide! (Score:2)
Its already a name for a common util (Score:2)
which has been around since the 70s and allows you to check if a remote host is alive. Why apple couldn't have picked a different name god knows.
Re: (Score:2)
If Microsoft had called something that isn't ping Ping, it would have been blasphemy. A ton of people would be ranting about it.
Apple gets a pass on that because... I'm not exactly sure why.
Re: (Score:2)
No. A Ping is by nature real-time and direct. A search engine is pretty much the opposite, serving cached data.
Not that Bing is much better; anyone older than generation Y will associate Bing with Bing Crosby. They might have been slightly closer to the truth if they had named it Bogart...
Last.fm anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would I want to use this over Last.fm [www.last.fm] which doesn't lock me into an application, is accessible from my webbrowser and has plugins for about every media player around?
It arguably doesn't provide competition to Facebook aiming at a different audience altogether, but to me, judging from the article, it seems to be swimming in much the same waters as Apple's Ping.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't give a crap... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think that is unfortunate for Apple, and I doubt Apple does either. It always happens with new Apple products that Slashdot lists out the people who won't or can't buy them.
Apple clearly does not care about certain parts of the market.
Someone above called Ping a social shopping network. That is what it is. It is the logical extension of the product 'reviews' already in itunes, half of which are reviews of previous reviews and people trying to engage in arguments. Move all that crap into a social net
I suspect that ping is going to be (Score:5, Interesting)
strictly about music discovery and band discovery.
Steve Jobs is amazingly (obsessively? :-) focused on making up for what the record companies gave up on in the nineties, promotion.
Now that he's in a great position of power in the music industry, look for him to use "ping" to make an end-run around those same record companies which are run by accountants who treat artists and performers worse than livestock.
In return he gets to listen to great bands. (Remember, Apple in the seventies used to host music events.)
And this is why people should hope it succeeds (Score:4, Informative)
Disclaimer: I'm using iTunes 10 right now. Make of that what you will.
There's a lot to hate about Ping, mostly that it's what I like to call a "Potempkin Shopping Village of the Damned." It's there for little more than to allow people to show off their musical tastes and share with their friends. The fact that once you've shared a favorite song with your friends they can listen to a snippet and buy it on the spot <sarcasm class="eyeroll pshaw">is purely coincidental, I'm sure.</sarcasm> It's using the concept of "social networking" in a way that's so utterly cynical it's shocking, and we've got some primo cynics around here.
So yeah, evil evil evil. Insert as many "fanbois" as you think are necessary after that. (If you stick in two or more "gay"s, though, you're projecting.)
But then, as crovira points out, there's that bit where Mr. Jobs mentioned "discovery." That's the tilt. It's also where Ping could redeem itself if the users are judicious in its application. Yes, Lady Gaga and U2 and Yo Yo Ma and Katy Perry and Linkin Park and U2 (apparently, Apple really likes U2) are featured on the front page in their own box. Think of that as the sponsored advetising. The really important box is on every user's profile page, in the top right corner. This is where each user gets to recommend ten songs that exemplify their own musical tastes. Click one of those, a pop-up comes up allowing you to sample the tunes on that album, go to that album's page, buy it, review it, etc. In that space, artists like Voltaire, Abney Park, and Lemon Demon can go toe-to-toe with the likes of Roger Waters and Madonna, and could even win.
CmdrTaco at it again (Score:2)
Ron Miller: Could Apple's announcement about Ping [...] be Apple's social networking trojan horse?
CmdrTaco: Of course it is.
Ah, the great and definitive insights of CmdrTaco ;)
CmdrTaco: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
By the way, it's not. Ping maybe, but Apple's annoucement about Ping, definitely not.
Only in iTunes Store (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Not to worry ... I'm sure iTunes will automatically 'like' songs based on what you listen to on your home machine. You needn't lift a finger to be an active member of ping. Oddly they could be creating a fully automated social networking site - no direct user involvement needed.
160 million users on day one? (Score:4, Insightful)
iTunes might have 160 million users, but that doesn't mean they are ever going to use Ping. According to this logic, Google kicked facebook's ass with Buzz. There's a facebook app on all the iProducts. Every computer that can run iTunes has a browser that can access facebook. I open iTunes to rip a CD or listen to music, not connect with the rest of the world. I use my web browser for that. There's no compelling reason to switch. They'll get a bunch to sign up for Ping to see the "exclusive photos" and never use any other part of it.
"Jack Johnson had displayed from his latest tour and an exclusive video Lady Gaga made for her fans. This kind of direct access to artists is more powerful than Facebook Fan pages" ....unless the artist just posts the pictures and video to facebook. Comparing it to a facebook page run by a fan is just stupid. Bands are free to post whatever they want on facebook under their own page. Apple isn't offering anything new here, "exclusive content" is the AOL path to success.
Many people went to facebook because their friends are on facebook. There is not going to be a mass exodus from facebook to Ping, there isn't any reason to switch.
Microsoft Lawsuit (Score:3, Interesting)
I think Microsoft will sue Apple because of the name.
As they sued Mike Rowe Software for it's name being too similar to theirs.
I wonder.... (Score:5, Insightful)
c:\>ping www.apple.com
Pinging www.apple.com [96.16.93.15] with 32 bytes
Request timed out. No Linux client
Request timed out. No mobile client
Request timed out. No universal browser access
Request timed out. Forced use of 80MB client software
Ping statistics for 96.16.93.15:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% fail)
yeah thats what i thought...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is a very good mobile client, it just runs on iOS devices.
If you want to complain so much, go use Amazon's store. Apple doesn't want your business and is still #1
Your Ping is broken (Score:2)
Request timed out. No mobile client
If you had been paying attention you would know ping also works on iOS devices too.
But what's a hundred million mobile devices more or less?
Off by default (Score:3, Insightful)
At least apple has this part right, for now.
Why do people use facebook? (Score:2)
Because all of their friends/family use it, since all of my friends/family are already on Facebook, what is the incentive for me to switch to a system that none of my friends/family are using. How many people are on multiple social networks? Most early adopters of social networks switched from myspace to facebook due to a multitude of reasons, but the number one was that in their opinion FB was a better product.
Now if Apple can convince the majority of users that they have a better product (in that FB was
Ping is nothing like Facebook (Score:2)
Facebook doesn't need to worry, because Ping is not a general purpose social network. It's not Twitter or FoursSquare or Facebook or Brightkite.
Instead it's a social network focused solely on media, mostly music. It's at the same time more casual but more focused. Someone who really cares about music a lot might find it more useful than most social networking sites, while at the same time still keeping up on Facebook.
it was 1999 (Score:2)
Not really (Score:2)
Any social network that doesn't have ALL the users is not going to be a threat to Facebook. If Ping doesn't run on non-Apple mobile devices, Linux machines, or older hardware then I don't see the threat.
Re:First they laughed at me. (Score:4, Funny)
That's not quite accurate -- you said that Ping would kill Facebook. Without really knowing jack about it.
I still think that's funny and/or you're trolling, although I also think an article about Apple coming in through the backdoor is inherently funny and invites numerous lube jokes.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't burn any step yet.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - Gandhi
However, Slashdot lacks a "fight" moderation choice, so you got modded "Troll" instead.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
please, the worst mistake to make in a market is assuming the next big product is going to kill it off.
It'd be more accurate that saying ping is apple's attempt to compete with facebook, because the details of how ping will actually work matter a lot more than just "We made our own social platform".
Re: (Score:2)
please, the worst mistake to make in a market is assuming the next big product is going to kill it off.
It'd be more accurate that saying ping is apple's attempt to compete with facebook, because the details of how ping will actually work matter a lot more than just "We made our own social platform".
I agree with you with one correction; The worse mistake in marketing in recent times has been assuming that "Apple isn't relevant to anyone except their fanbois"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There are very easy ways to back your iTunes up onto different machines. I know of at least 2 methods. Clearly you haven't been reading the support pages.
Don't pooh pooh Apple's success. If you know something more simple than Apple's interfaces (and Android doesn't look like it) then let us know.
Re: (Score:2)
And simplicity != Great.
A 4 function calculator is great at simplicity, good luck getting through calculus with that though.
Re: (Score:2)
Ned: Phil?
Phil: Ned?
[Punches Ned in the face]
Re: (Score:2)
How is this "Groundhog day" reference relevant? I'm not saying it isn't, but could you explain, I'm feeling a bit under the weather and the brain doesn't perhaps make the connections it should.
Re: (Score:2)
I believe Ned (Ryerson? I think) responds to Phil with "BING!".
Re: (Score:2)
Look at what they did with Nintendo DS. They sneaked up on it through music. People are very emotionally attached to their music, so associating something else with their music would be a good strategy. The start with this social network for music, building a core group of people. Then these people will form a critical mass such that they can bring in non-music things.
Apple has it's strategy right because they are making money from their social network (through music) and can thus outlive the non-profit soc
Re: (Score:2)
Apple has it's strategy right because they are making money from their social network (through music) and can thus outlive the non-profit social networks in existence.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Facebook's made over a billion dollars already this year.
Is that as much as Apple will make this year, no, but in no one's fevered, insane imaginings is it a non-profit social network.
Re: (Score:2)
Apple has it's strategy right because they are making money from their social network (through music) and can thus outlive the non-profit social networks in existence.
Right and wrong. Apple does have the right strategy, but it isn't for why you think. While yes, they will certainly make money from people buying music off others recommendations, the more important thing here is that they don't need to gain any users for this to be successful. This is an upgrade to a current service, despite being something totally new. The user base is there, and the service promises attractive results for the user, so it will likely see widespread adoption, if not widespread active use.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My issue with iTunes are two things:
On the Mac, iTunes works well. Mash play/pause/FF/rewind, it does so when in the background. However, on Windows, the media keys don't work unless iTunes is present in the foreground. Even the Zune player is good in this regard.
My second issue is that iTunes is so critical to the operation of iOS devices. If iTunes becomes unusable, you can't restore your iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch if that dies. Other iPods can be used with third party utilities, or even manually du
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On the Mac, iTunes works well. Mash play/pause/FF/rewind, it does so when in the background. However, on Windows, the media keys don't work unless iTunes is present in the foreground. Even the Zune player is good in this regard.
Easily fixable [everythingitunes.com] with a quick download.
I am currently trying the get a Linux based HTPC/Media box set up. The largest PiTA has been trying to get a decent music player. They all either lack things that I consider basic features, can't handle a decent sized media library, are slow/lag
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Look at what they did with Nintendo DS. They sneaked up on it through music. People are very emotionally attached to their music, so associating something else with their music would be a good strategy. The start with this social network for music, building a core group of people. Then these people will form a critical mass such that they can bring in non-music things.
Apple has it's strategy right because they are making money from their social network (through music) and can thus outlive the non-profit social networks in existence.
Look at what who did with the Nintendo DS?
Nintendo? They sold over 132,000,000 of them. And over 575,000,000 games (despite nearly ubiquitous piracy). At an average price of $35, that equates to over $20,000,000,000 in software revenue, and at an average price of about $150 (a low estimate of the average), you've got another $20,000,000,000 in hardware revenue (yes, they make money on the hardware - they do not sell it at a loss).
Steve Jobs can count the number of apps or downloads all day long, but noth
the 275 million people who do (Score:2)
have iTunes installed don't give a fuck about you or your pity.
These people have probably bought Office for Christ's sake. They obviously don't care about bloatware of wasted CPU cycles.
Now can we stop sticking our noses up Steve Job's butt and get back to real news?
Re: (Score:2)
These people have probably bought Office for Christ's sake. They obviously don't care about bloatware of wasted CPU cycles.
Hmm. In my experience, MS Office is considerably less bloated than OpenOffice. Interesting choice of straw man.
Re: (Score:2)
These people have probably bought Office for Christ's sake. They obviously don't care about bloatware of wasted CPU cycles.
Hey now. Office doesn't consume nearly the memory or CPU on my machine that iTunes does. Only Eclipse with a handful of plug-ins or older versions of Firefox are even really competitive with iTunes in that respect.
Which gets sadder the more I think about it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And 275 billion flies can't be wrong either: eat shit.
Argumentum ad populum should never be taken as a serious argument; the chance of someone being a victim of hype and groupthink is proportional to how strongly he defends his choices.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree. I was hoping they'd announce a total rewrite of iTunes, or maybe an iPlay, that was lightweight and cloud based and instead they announce that they are layering in more useless crap.. bummer. iTunes is the worst part of the iDevice experience.
Re: (Score:2)
iTunes works great on my Mac. It's fast, never crashes and basically just works.
I've not used iTunes on Windows, so perhaps you meant to say:
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Steve Jobs doesn't agree with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4AXaFlIFQA [youtube.com]
not ot or flamebate or troll. (Score:2)
article title clearly mentions backdoor.
ping is clearly intended to be a backdoor beauty.