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Media (Apple) Media Music The Almighty Buck

Creative Gunning For the iPod 696

yashchopra writes "CTZ is running an article where Creative's main goal in 2005 is to take away market shares from Apple's iPod music player, which they believe is very possible. The publication also have some information on the upcoming flash MP3 player standards that we will see this year. "While many companies are looking forward to their flash MP3 players, Creative has other plans. Creative was one of the most popular exhibitors on the show floor with their Zen Micro and Zen Touch players on display. Creative's sole goal this year is to take away some market shares from Apple's iPod. The company believes it to be a possible task, as iPod is limited to iTunes when it comes to purchasing music online and with Creative's products, you will be able to purchase music from major online vendors. The ability to download and listen music from any major online retailer and the price are what Creative is using as their marketing strategies to compete against Apple's iPod. But other than that, Creative's products look very much like the iPod with a few changes."
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Creative Gunning For the iPod

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  • by jlower ( 174474 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @08:58AM (#11384318) Homepage
    The ability to download and listen music from any major online retailer

    Well, all of them except for *the* major online retailer that is.

    I wish them luck. Competition is good.
    • What they need to do is make deals with all the other major providors to provide one unified interface to them all. Imagine that you load up your creative supplied iTunes equivalent, only its built in shop is really a conglomeration of all the iTunes opponents.

      If you could do that, you'd get good prices, a huge selection of music, and all supplied with one program that connects perfectly to your music player.

      Of course politics and other such crap will make such a thing improbable at best. :(
    • by jest3r ( 458429 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:27AM (#11384478)
      funny .. allofmp3.com works fine with my iPod
  • I got a Creative Nomad Xtra for Christmas, and I have been very satisifed with it thus far. I needed to upgrade the firmware to get the most out of my player, but so far I've shown it to my friends and they are most jealous as I paid the better part of $100 less for a 40 gig mp3 player then they paid for their Ipods.
    • by ickoonite ( 639305 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:43AM (#11384588) Homepage
      I needed to upgrade the firmware to get the most out of my player

      Sounds to me like a bit of a euphemism for "The player Creative shipped was a pile of turd and didn't work as advertised, but a 50MB download later and I am now trying to figure my way through the awkward setup procedure. Here's hoping it works!"

      In London, I don't think I've seen a single person with an MP3 player other than an iPod - no kidding - and they're expensive here. I'm sure they exist, but people hide them...like something they're to be ashamed of. So the suggestion that friends are jealous of you sounds a little weak.

      (Disclaimer: I, like all the other non-anal-retentives on here, have an iPod. Oldskool 10Gb.)

      iqu :P
      • I suppose that might be one reason why creative are trying so hard to copy the look of the ipod.
        Then again, the main problem with copying is that it's just flattery, when you copy something you can never be better than the original. The original design features 'originality' and the company (apple) are respected for that, and so when a consumer will look for a player, they know the originality is coming from apple, and the knock off to be coming from creative. It's not a good marketing stance to take on an
    • by Slack3r78 ( 596506 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:05AM (#11384750) Homepage
      You know what's enough to keep me away from any Creative MP3 player? The fact that they come with a whole 90 days of warranty on them. And that I know two different people in the past year who bought 30GB Zens and had the hard drive in them die within 6 months only to have Creative tell them they were out of luck.

      This compared to a full year of AppleCare with less a week's turnaround time if I have problems? I'll pay extra for the piece of mind, thank you. Nevermind that Apple, while not perfect, is a company I'd far prefer to support than Creative.

      If that's left you scratching your head, do some research on Creative's driver support for their hardware, the demise of Aureal (and what happened to Aureal's technology afterward), and the patent blackmailing of iD re: Doom 3 and EAX support. The less money I give Creative, the better I feel.
      • by Leo McGarry ( 843676 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @11:01AM (#11385209)
        Just for the record, the full year of AppleCare comes with the iPod. For a fee --I don't remember how much, but it's less than $100 --you can double that to two years.

        And the treatment you get with AppleCare is amazing. I just got through writing a long comment about my AppleCare experience. The key phrase: "Here's your new one."
    • by fatwreckfan ( 322865 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:41AM (#11385042)
      My first harddrive based player was Zen 2.0 and I thought the same thing. "What a steal! So much cheaper than an iPod, more space, etc." Then I was given an iPod as a gift and the second I had it out of the box I knew why iPod is the premier player on the market. It feels good, it looks good, and it works great. Compared to the iPod the Zen felt like having a brick in my pocket, the interface and software sucked horribly, and I couldn't stand the tiny little screen. The only thing the Zen had that the iPod doesn't that I really liked was the remote with LCD, but even that was halfassed. It would only display the track name...no artist information. And when I'm playing a playlist of a few hundred songs I'd like to be able to see that since I can't remember every track by every band.
  • by Brento ( 26177 ) * <brento@@@brentozar...com> on Monday January 17, 2005 @08:58AM (#11384320) Homepage
    Whenever anybody says their product is really similar to iPod or Tivo except for a few tiny differences, I can guarantee you what the differences are.

    Usability, physical beauty, and simplicity.

    News flash: those little things are the reason people are buying a an iPod, buying a Tivo, etc, and not your product, Creative. My girlfriend didn't want to carry around something that looked like an angry PDA, so I got her an iPod and she's happy, and her friends are buying them now. My parents didn't want a home media center computer in their living room because they can barely handle their current computer, so I got them a Tivo and they're happy, and their friends are buying them now.

    Are there cheaper products out that do the same dang thing? Sure. But they're not as usable, not as attractive, and not as simple. And sorry, Creative, but putting a "Mesmerizing Blue LED Back Light" isn't going to cut it. Those were "Mesmerizing" back in 2002. You're not going to get money out of my pocket by looking like a rice-boy's Civic dashboard.

    And as long as the Zen Micro has a blatant pair of nipples [creative.com] on the touchpad, my girlfriend's not going to use it either.
    • by theWrkncacnter ( 562232 ) * on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:01AM (#11384334)
      Here here, very well put. Don't you love how people are trying to "beat" apple in this market? No one has been trying to beat apple at anything for a long time.
    • Couldn't agree more. Still, I do find it "mesmerizing" that when simplicity seems to be key in multimedia devices for the masses, no-one is able to create an I-pod competitor that is just as simple, only costs less.

      They would of course need to come up with a simple look of their own, in stead of badly emulating the over-styled I-Pod.
    • Well, it's okay for folks to love your iPod and think Apple is great. And yeah, you can mock companies like creative that think they can steal some market share away by selling a product that doesn't rely on a vertically integrated market for sales.

      I'd just like to remind you folks that there was also a time when Apple had the lock on icon-based, desktop-style operating systems for Personal Computers, and their enviable market share was bolstered by vertical integration. Can you blame Creative for seeing
    • Physical beauty? If that's a factor, then the iPod fails miserably. That sickening, ultra-bright white Apple slathers all over their hardware makes my eyes burn.

      OTOH, I like how the Zen Micro offers a variety of colours, including a few I really like (particularly the silver and purple models). I admit I'm not fond of that blue backlight, but I still prefer the Zen Micro over the iPod, visually-speaking.

      Oh, and if your girlfriend doesn't like the "nipples", maybe she should avoid using any keyboard. Every
      • Gah...I really should learn to use the preview button multiple times. Forgot to finish the last line before I hit submit. Anyway, the last line should be:

        Granted, I'm not really interested in either player, as neither of them support Vorbis, but from what I've seen, I'd take the Zen Micro over an iPod any day.
    • I realize your analogy regarding Tivo was more towards interface and features than looks. I don't think anyone cares what their PVR looks like - it's a piece of home stereo equipment.

      That said - yeah, the Zen Micro is downright fugly. iPod is "cute". And I feel sorry for all those people who bought one of those iRiver devices to find few firmware updates and a lame interface, but hey - at least more hard drive space right?

    • by daBass ( 56811 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:28AM (#11384483)
      So your girlfriend is shallow and obsessed with beauty, even for products that are supposed to spend 99% of their time hidden away in your pocket and doing what they are supposed to be doing: playing music. ;-)

      I am not trashing the iPod, it's great, I just bought a mini for my sister, mostly for the same reason as your girlfriend's.

      But that doesn't mean other's aren't very good players as well. Creative's software is as good as iTunes and the players are as easy to use. Two out of three ain't bad. Add to that better battery life (and user replacable for when it does fail completely) and that's the myth of Apple's technical superiority is gone.

      The iPod is all about looks compared to these Creative players and I believe Creative can slice into Apple's marketshare a fair bit. Nobody is saying they will "beat apple" as others seem to interpret the statements.

      Competition is good!
      • by Nexum ( 516661 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:34AM (#11384990)
        Creative's software is not as good as iTunes.

        Does it offer unlimited bitrate ripping of music into AAC, MP3, AIFF, WAV and Apple Lossless?
        Does it offer unbridled speed burning of Audio CDs?
        Does it offer unbridled speed burning of MP3 CDs?
        Does it offer complete integration with the music store?
        Does it offer rendezvous library sharing?
        Does it offer smart playlists?
        Does it offer built in capability to back up your library to DVD or CDR with one click?
        Does it offer an interface as easy to use, and as elegant as iTunes?

        No.
      • by moonbender ( 547943 ) <moonbender@@@gmail...com> on Monday January 17, 2005 @11:16AM (#11385325)
        The battery life of the Zen Micro is actually worse than the iPod mini's. I'm aware that they claim a longer life, but apparently that's not true, at least not to a test (German mobile computing website) Xonio published a week ago:
        http://www.xonio.com/features/feature_12585175.htm l [xonio.com]

        It's in German, but there isn't a whole lot of text anyway, mostly just data. Festplatte translates to hard drive, in case you're wondering. The iPod mini plays for 8:17, the Zen Micro stops at 7:10. The model with the best battery life-time in the iPod mini form factor is the TEAC MP-1000 (17:39), but then it only sports 1.5 GB so it might as well be flash based. The best hard drive based is the iriver iHP-100 at 18:28.

        That said, they don't seem to say anything at all about their testing methods. Granted, it's not that difficult: they probably just took a new-ish player, connected it to AC as long as it wants to be, and then played some music - the same music for all players, obviously, to take into account different power usage at different bit rates and such. But who knows if that's what they did, they don't say. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though, since their previous reviews always seemed to be quite good.

        If anybody has got more battery longevity tests that indicate different results be my guest. I'm on the market for another mp3 player (my old mini-CD based Philips one is just about dead now), and I fell in love with the mini-HD form factor when I saw the first models and now it comes to down to either the iPod mini or the Zen Micro. Currently, I leaning heavily towards the iPod mini - especially due to the fact that it seems to be cheaper in these parts.
    • Newssflash (Score:3, Insightful)

      by brunes69 ( 86786 )
      Seriously - the iPod is an OK device, but it is not *that* much better than your average MP3 player. Not better enought o justify the sales. The iPods aren't flying off the shelves because they are pretty or because they are easy to use. There are thousands of products that meet this criteria that fail every year.

      They are flying off the shelves because of the nifty commercials with shadows dancing to Jet. They are flying off the shelves because U2 says to buy one. They are flying off the shelves because th
      • Re:Newssflash (Score:5, Informative)

        by InadequateCamel ( 515839 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:24AM (#11384914)
        There are a hell of a lot of iPod users/fans here at /., and I doubt most of them have been influenced by the teeny bop stars and U2. (granted, some of it IS rabid Apple-fanboy behaviour, but I digress)

        The iPod is more popular because it was the first out of the gate, had far more storage than the Flash memory offerings, looked/looks better than any other product available today and is far more simple to use than Creative's or anyone else's device. (iTunes is easy, scroll wheel is a godsend) The last one is particularly important, considering that many/most people are barely computer-literate and are rather frightened of technology.

        Marketing and envious, keeping-up-with-the-Jones buying has certainly put the iPod where it is today. But the initial and ongoing popularity is because it is simply the best product available. The Creative product IS good, but the iPod is better.
      • The iPod is not doing so well because of commercials (though of course they do not hurt). Advertising and ease of use built them a base, but is not responsible for the dramatic rise in sales they are seeing.

        The reason why the iPod is really taking off is the network effect - the sheer value of having so many devices around. You have more people around that know how to use them, more people around that reccomend them, and so on - and lastly because there are so many players you have a HUGE accessory mark
  • by andreMA ( 643885 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @08:59AM (#11384325)
    Given that Apple has about 70% of the market for online music sales, aren't the others all "minor" if numerous?
  • by mordors9 ( 665662 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:03AM (#11384339)
    I can start my week without concern now. I have had my death of the ipod (or apple) article so all is right with the world.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:04AM (#11384346)
    iTunes GAINING market share every quarter

    At best they can hope to slow the dominance!

    The biggest most MAJOR retailer of songs is apple with over 70% of the market for sold files.

    I hardly see how they can claim that they support "ANY major vendor" without supporting the DRM protected MPEG 2 AAC file format.

    besides, apples the AUDIO in apple DRM is the most leightweight, and highest quality (48 frequency "bins' instead of 32, more amplitude, more upper frequ3encies) than mp3 and wma.

    Digital Restriction Management sucks, but at least apple's is a little less hostile than microsoft's and Real's. (number of machines, phone-homes, number of allowed lost replacements, etc)

  • ...for me to FIRST POOP on! Eh, so what if they support all those diverse sites - that shouldn't help them get massive instantaneous momentum, just slowly building momentum over time, and nothing Apple can't control with the appropriate adjustments over time (towards more openness and inclusivity, after they have secured a constellation of dominant positions along the core of the market... please Apple, be smart about that this time...)
  • by Xugumad ( 39311 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:07AM (#11384362)
    I'm not sure what non-iTunes stores outside the UK are like (because they won't let me find out), but the ones I've seen in the UK are all rebranded versions of the same backend. Which was awkward to use, glitchy, and more expensive. Their only advantage was they had some tracks iTunes didn't. I'd provide links, but I can only get into the pages using IE for Windows.

    "Will work with anything except the iTunes store" isn't that great a selling point, IMHO...
    • Since the only online retailer I'd use for purchasing music, Bleep, supplies them as unencrypted mp3s created using LAME's --alt-preset-standard setting, I don't care. Those work on iPods just fine.

      Amusingly enough, I tried one on a friend's Creative MuVo last week. It played, but the timestamp was utterly confused by the variable bit-rate.

      So while it is just possible that Creative can find a definition of 'major retailer' that makes their claim accurate, they don't work that well with any I'd frequent.
  • Taking market share from Apple involves one or both of :
    • Selling more MP3 players this year than apple.
    • Getting existing iPod owners to buy a Creative player.

    Frankly, I don't see either happening. If apple sell more ipods than creative, then creative would lose market share. And I can't see that there are many people who would dump their iPod and buy a creative, especially since all their iTunes purchases wont play on it.

    Creatives best shot this year is to produce a flash player that looks and plays

    • If apple sell more ipods than creative, then creative would lose market share.

      Actually that's not true.
      Since Apple has already a huge market share, selling more mp3 players than creative is not enough. If they sell just slighty more ipods than creative, they could very well be losing market share. When you are the market leader, you have to sell MUCH more than your competitors to keep your market share.
    • If apple sell more ipods than creative, then creative would lose market share

      No, not necesarily, since the market is expanding. Creative simply needs to capture more of the emerging portion of the market than Apple does to gain market share. I highly doubt that will happen though, since perhaps the biggest reason the market is expanding this way is interest in Apple iPod products, so most of the emerging part of the market will go to Apple.

    • Re:Good luck. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jridley ( 9305 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:20AM (#11384430)
      If apple sell more ipods than creative, then creative would lose market share

      Uh, no. If A sold 990 units last year and B sold 10, then A has 99% market share and B has 1%. If this year A sells 600 units and B sells 400, A still has sold more than B but A's market share has dropped from 99% to 60% while B's has gone from 1% to 40%.

      If you're talking about total market penetration of players in the field, then at the end of last year, A had 99% in the field. At the end of this year, A has 990+600/2000=79.5% of the number of widgets in the field.

      Either way, A's market share has decreased even though they've still sold more units than B.
  • by NexusTw1n ( 580394 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:09AM (#11384369) Journal
    Creative models seem to have better battery life, either easily replacable with a spare without needing special tools (Zen Xtra) or extra long battery life (Zen Touch).

    The iPod always seems to rely heavily on iTunes, not just the store, but the software itself. For example multiple playlist creation and on fly editing (you can see whay songs are coming up and remove them if you want to) can be done directly on the Zen, I believe the iPod will need synching with iTunes to do the same.

    There is far more freedom to copy songs to and from the Zen, to multiple machines, something that is difficult if not impossible to do on the iPod.

    Noone can deny iPod's market share but the design seemed to stick in 2002/3, the Zen has overtaken Apple with more features, and they easily beat them in price.
    • You talk as if iTunes is a liability, and I actually think it's an asset.

      It makes music management simple. It's fast. It's easy.

      I've never heard anyone rave about Creative's music jukebox management software, but I have heard people rave about Apple's iTunes. People can actually use it's features; every upgrade/version adds more functionality that people actually like:
      Rip with one button
      Streaming libraries to multiple computers
      Smart playlists
      Synch to the iPod with zero interaction
      Party playlist
      Automatical
    • by JesterXXV ( 680142 ) <jtradke.gmail@com> on Monday January 17, 2005 @03:37PM (#11388001)
      I have a Zen Xtra, and it's a piece of crap. I bought it because it was cheaper than an iPod for the storage (30 gigs for $270 about a year ago). Problems include:

      - The headphone jack is screwed up. Occasionally I'll only hear out of one ear (it's not the headphones, I've tried several pairs). The Zen Xtra is notorious for having headphone jack problems.
      - You need to install drivers and a Windows Explorer extension before you can move files to and from the thing. Why can't it just be a plain USB mass storage device? What about plug and play?
      - Controls: That stupid scroll wheel/button is a terribly stupid idea. I've gotten used to it, but it's really clumsy to use.
      - Interface: the lag between pushing a button and its effect is at least half a second, more if a song is playing. It's really irritating to be scrolling through a huge list of artists and stopping when I see the one I want, only to have it keep scrolling another 20 names because it didn't notice that I stopped holding the control down.
      - The battery cover does not attach snugly. There's about a millimeter gap between the cover and the unit that I can push closed, but it just snaps back out. It's been like that since day one.

      I've never used an iPod, so this isn't meant to be a comparison between the two. The Zen Xtra is just plain crap.
  • by iPaqMan ( 230487 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:10AM (#11384372)
    Ford is trying to take market share from GM!!

    Of course Creative wants to take market share from Apple. Why is this news??? Are nerds oblivious to simple economics?

    Man, this must really be a slow news day.
  • by jmcmunn ( 307798 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:10AM (#11384374)
    Either Creative is wrong, or the dumbass that wrote the article is wrong...

    iPod is limited to iTunes when it comes to purchasing music online

    That's total BS, and I hope people don't think that this is true. You can purchase music anywhere online that has the Mp3 or AAC formats. Audible.com is a good example of where to get audio books. And allofmp3.com (although maybe not so much on the up-and-up) is another place to get music online. I'll leave the copy and paste of these sites as an exercise to the reader, since I'm not trying to pimp them or anything.

    But come on folks, you can put almost ANY mp3 on your iPod, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to use only iTunes for your online music. It's also possible to buy music from iTunes and load it on ANY music player. There are programs out there (Hymn) to remove the security from the iTunes music, and them convert to Mp3. Google has your answers.

    This is just a way for Creative to scare people away from the iPod, and it is crap.
    • If Apple doesn't support the DRM of these other music stores, no, you can't play music you bought there. Creative has a point, the choice is very limitted.

      But when is Creative finaly gonna play AAC files so I can buy tunes from the frigging' iTunes store!? :)
      • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:42AM (#11384582) Journal
        But when is Creative finaly gonna play AAC files so I can buy tunes from the frigging' iTunes store!? :)

        I can't answer that question, but there are a few players that will play pure AAC files (Philips make some, I'm sure there are others). I almost bought one that used mini-CDs a few years ago. While they won't play m4p songs from iTMS directly, they will play them with with no loss of quality if you run them through Hymn first.

  • by Green Light ( 32766 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:12AM (#11384378) Journal
    ...as iPod is limited to iTunes when it comes to purchasing music online and with Creative's products, you will be able to purchase music from major online vendors. The ability to download and listen music from any major online retailer and the price are what Creative is using as their marketing strategies to compete against Apple's iPod.
    If they think that people are buying iPods so that they can download music from the ITMS, they still don't get it. People don't buy a music player because of the options that are available to buy music online, they (usually) already have gigabytes of music on their hard disks & want to listen to it on the go.

    Make it look great, make it easy to use, and people will buy it. Simple as that, Creative...
    • >If they think that people are buying iPods so that they can download music from the ITMS, they still don't get it.

      i completely agree with this... why would 99 cent download services be a big consideration when purchasing $99 to $599 music devices? the device better be worth the money on its own merit instead of touting the download service because for many, music device is where they spend most of the money.

      online vendor compatibility is not a concern because catalogs are nearly the same. about the

  • The major question will be whether Creative's UI is as elegant, simple and useful as the iPod's clickwheel. If they can -- or if they can just mimic the clickwheel -- I think they'll be able to do it.
  • Why iPod rules (Score:5, Interesting)

    by harikiri ( 211017 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:16AM (#11384400)
    I've had a few discussions with my friends about the iPod and why it rules (in the wake of the Shuffle announcement). Here is my argument:

    1. It's not about size: Other companies trying to advertise bigger storage will fail, except for geeks with deep pockets and niche requirements.
    2. It's not about features: People do not purchase iPod's because they have every feature under the sun. Instead - Apple is deliberately selective.

    It's about simplicity.

    With regards to the iPod shuffle - yes there are other Flash mp3 players. But for consumers like my mother, who has issues navigating the file system, she doesn't have to (a) rip a cd and then (b) find where her ripped mp3's are to (c) copy them across to her flash player.

    With an iPod, she simply sticks in her device to charge, and music syncs between the iPod and iTunes automatically. If she wants to burn a CD she sticks one into the computer and presses a single button: import. She doesn't need to know anything about which codec to burn a cd with (mp3/aac/wmv), or where on the filesystem they end up, or dragging an dropping. It happens for her automatically.

    Simplicity and doing what it does do well - is where the iPod shines. If companies want to eat at the iPod market share, it's not about bombarding the customer with a shitload of features. Instead, make a music player, make it easy to import music (this includes minimising any DRM), and make the device SIMPLE to use. I want to be able to explain how it works to my mum in 60 seconds, and to have her "get it". If you can do that, then you've got a product which has a chance.

    Software developers and marketers, learn from Apple. Simplicity is king. Don't cause the customer headaches, and they will come back for more.

    • Re:Why iPod rules (Score:3, Insightful)

      by BenjyD ( 316700 )
      Many companies, Creative included, seem to treat the music-syncing software as a necessary evil, rather than an important part of their product.

      Look at Sony's awful NetMD software or Creative's poorly thought out, slow and unstable music organizer for their Muvo line. It's not all that difficult a problem to solve, but Apple seems to be the only one that puts any engineering effort into it.
  • Please (Score:5, Funny)

    by asliarun ( 636603 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:17AM (#11384408)
    Let us not compare Apples [apple.com] to Oranges [creative.com].

    Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
  • People buy apple products for different reasons than price.

    I read several opinion articles about how the ipod mini did'nt compare to some other offerings if you looked at how much storage it had, how many different formats it supported and so on.

    People buy apple products for two primary reasons.

    1. Ease of use

    2. Style

    You want to know why the Ipod, Ipod Mini are successful and probably the Mac Mini as well? Because they are COOL.

    Price concious consumers do NOT factor that in when deciding what to purcha
  • by lga ( 172042 ) * on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:18AM (#11384418) Journal
    If Creative want to take market share from Apple then they need to increase reliability. I got my wife a Zen Touch for christmas, and it went back to the shop just two weeks later because it kept locking up.

    I did everything Creative recommended, the built in scan-disk, formatting the disk, upgrading the firmware but in the end it was still locking up nearly every time the thing was turned on! A quick google search turned up posts on the creative forum that showed that I am not alone in this problem. Even reviews of the player mention that it froze up, but most just gloss over it.

    It is a shame that the player had these problems because my first impression of the Zen Touch was a quality player. It's made from metal, not plastic, has a good screen, fantastic battery life. Altogether better construction and design than the iPod and cheaper too.

    I'm giving them a chance to replace the player when they have stock but I'm not impressed by these problems and my next purchase probably won't be a Creative product.
    • by Leo McGarry ( 843676 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:58AM (#11385176)
      I did everything Creative recommended, the built in scan-disk, formatting the disk, upgrading the firmware

      In my opinion, that's a sign of a major difference between the way Creative thinks of their products and the way Apple thinks of theirs.

      When my old-school 5 GB iPod died last year, I decided, instead of spending $250 to repair it, that I'd spend $50 more and get a new 20 GB model. (Mine was long out of warranty, you see. Always buy AppleCare, y'all!)

      Mine came in the mail --I bought it from the online Apple Store -- and it worked great for a few days, but then it started acting funny. I called Apple, and without even really listening to my problem, the guy says, "I see from your mailing address that you're about 20 minutes from the Apple Store So-n-So. Can you take it in there? I can make you an appointment in half an hour, if that's good for you."

      I said sure, got in my car and drove to the Apple Store. When I got there I went to the "genius bar" and introduced myself, and one of the guys behind it said, "Oh, hi. Here." And he handed me a brand new 20 GB iPod, still in the box.

      I should have just sprinted for the door, of course, but I stood there looking stupid instead. He told me that Apple policy for people with misbehaving iPods that are still covered under warranty is for the customer, if possible, to just take it in to the nearest Apple store and exchange it for a brand new one of comparable size and features, no questions asked. They didn't even have any paperwork. Just "Sorry for the inconvenience. Here's your new one."

      How many computer or consumer-electronics companies do you know whose official, written company policy is "Sorry for the inconvenience, here's your new one?"

      • This, I think, is why Apple is going to stay at the top of the portable music market. They seem to be the only ones that realize that the relationship with the customer needs to continue after the device is purchased. (With their business plan being based on iTMS, it's actually crucial that this relationship continues.)

        My MP3 player, an Archos Gmini 400, died around New Year's. I'm fairly certain it was a hard drive failure, based on the sounds it was making. I sent a message to Archos' customer servic
  • ...they get it on TV.

    "Advantages" and "features" and all the other stuff won't mean a thing unless they get it on TV where people can see it. People got iPod because it has the apple logo on it. That's it! The whole reason. Half the people I know who got one still haven't figured out how to use the thing! A good portion of the rest have since decided they don't like listening to music through ear-phones... they just got it because it looked nice.

    We're geeks here... we like features, flexibility, thin
  • To Mr. Sim (Score:5, Interesting)

    by onpaws ( 685894 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:26AM (#11384466)
    To the CEO of the Creative Corporation, Sim Wong Hoo, and fellow Slashdot readers.

    Mr. Sim Wong Hoo, it is a pleasure to write to you.

    To familiarize the readers, Creative has a long running bout with the reigning king, the Apple iPod [apple.com]. In fact, just last November, you, Mr. Sim, "declared war [asia1.com.sg]" on the iPod. . And Today, you had even more fighting words [channelnewsasia.com] for the newest addition to the iPod platform, the iPod Shuffle [apple.com]:

    Said Mr Sim, "Actually, to me it's a big let-down: we're expecting a good fight but they're coming out with something that's five generations older... So I think the whole industry will just laugh at it, -- it's worse than the cheapest Chinese player. Even the cheap, cheap Chinese brand today has display and has FM. I think it's a non-starter to begin with."

    I am not here to discuss your comment about the Chinese, nor am I here to bash you personally or your company. I am not even here to talk technical specs, because frankly the lack of a male USB port on your Micro Slim is currently the least of your worries right now.

    You are undoubtedly a smart guy, being where you are now. You have sold over 2 million MP3 players last Christmas season, no mean feat at all (vs 4M iPod). There is no doubt that your company Creative is a successful one.

    But let me ask you this: You have declared War, but Do you want to WIN this war? Absolutely demolish all that is iPod and steal all the glory? Well then read on because as it stands, this is a War you will live or die for. If you want to live, please consider my Two Cents:

    1) Tip #1: Think like the underdog. If you want to be a market maker, you need to grow up and act like one. We all learned about "Perfect Competition" in school, how it meant that there was no excess profit and that the only way to get out of that bind was to differentiate yourself. Right now, iPod is winning because it is differentiable from you (brand name, iTunes integration). How are you winning? What is your battle cry?

    For the last two years, Creative has acted just like the "Chinese" me-toos (as you so put down in your latest comment) while Apple has been the market maker through and through. Here are some examples:

    When the first generation Apple iPod was released, you still were selling the MP3 jukebox [ign.com] ($480) that could not fast-forward or rewind (true), that looked like a spaceship (definitely), and still took 20 seconds to transfer a song (USB1.0). Quickly, your team raced to build a better looking version, after the success of the big iPod.

    The success of the iPod touch interface was also "borrowed" on your Zen-Touch line. And finally, after the Apple iPod Mini was announced, you surprisingly announced the new line of Zen Micro's in 10 colors.

    See, I like supporting the "underdog." I like supporting the brightest and most inventive minds. I support Tivoli Audio [tivoliaudio.com], Sirius satellite radio [siriusradio.com], I support many of OS X's small developers' [obdev.at] applications, I support the Treo 600 [treonauts.com], Brian Transeau [bt-network.org]'s music and a million gazillion other small companies out there with insanely great ideas. These are premium but differentiable products that people are willing to spend extra money on.

    Make something special, Be somebody special. We want that for your kids right? So incorporate that into your technological children, the Muvo's and the Zen's. Because Nobody honestly lusts to buy a me-too product.

    2) Tip #2: Make us shit in o

  • by dummkopf ( 538393 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:27AM (#11384473) Homepage
    "as iPod is limited to iTunes when it comes to purchasing music online and with Creative's products, you will be able to purchase music from major online vendors. ". I purchase all my music from www.allofmp3.com [allofmp3.com] and have no problem with iTunes. Just give up and stop writing crap about it....
  • price?? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by OmniVector ( 569062 ) <see my homepage> on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:27AM (#11384474) Homepage
    i think creative is in for a big fucking dose of reality. the ipod did not get where it was due to price, and no other product will touch it USING price. the ipod succeeded because it became an icon, and it is perpetuated now due to that. you're not going to compete against something like this by just offering a cheaper alternative. the only way to win this game now is to offer something cooler, or to offer something with bigger mindshare.

    when i saw steve job's view of the "ipod marketshare" in the MWSF keynote from "before ipod mini" and "after ipod mini" one thing came to mind: everyone in the flash market better get ready to pack up their bags and leave, because apple's taking over in a big way. i don't think anyone else stands a chance anymore because no one can compete with apple's marketing by mindshare or cool-factor.
  • by MagerValp ( 246718 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:28AM (#11384485) Homepage
    Since 99% of all the music in people's mp3 collections is either ripped from CD or downloaded off the net, who cares which store it's connected to? Online music stores are nifty and all, but I seriously doubt that they are driving hardware sales.
    • They may not be what's driving 100% of hardware sales, but I'm sure the percentage is very significant. One of the reasons I bought an iPod (I'm a PC user) is because of the easy to use software and online store. I also like Apple's philosophy behind the whole experience, buying the music and getting it on the device is as easy as a mouse click and putting the hardware in the dock. Of course, I'm not saying others aren't as easy to use, I'm just saying for me the iPod+iTunes gave me the best combination
  • If Creative really want market dominance they have to give the people what they really want (but may not know yet). Easy mobile song sharing.

    Equip the players with Bluetooth and or Infrared so that I can easily copy songs from my mate if I want to.

    Make it possible for users to P2P & browse from one device to another while on a train without even knowing each other. Great way to socialize too!

    "Hey is that you with the new Britney Spears album? Is it any good? Mind if I copy it? Wanna have a drink toge
  • by zwilliams07 ( 840650 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:30AM (#11384491)
    A haze from crack smoking has unexplainably engulfed Creative's HQ during the statement.
  • by darylb ( 10898 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:32AM (#11384514)
    Apple is the established competitor in this market. It's nice to want to beat Apple (as a secret wish), but Creative needs to focus on making a better player. From the start, this means making it painless to use Creative's product instead of Apple's. Creative needs full compatibility -- plug-in accessories for iPod should work with Creative, and CERTAINLY the iTunes AAC format should work. On the former, remember that cars are now shipping with controls and ports for iPods. Creative needs to be able to plug in to anything an iPod can.

    Everyone here talks about the music format (AAC, MP3, Ogg, WMA, etc.), but most people just don't care. Apple does not sell the iPod as an "AAC Player", yet Creative sells an "MP3 Player". These are music players. Quit selling a format. Sell a player.

    Creative needs to make a product that gets the stellar reviews of the iPod. When I was considering alternative players to my iPod, including Creative, I was amazed that Creative's players had a significant number of complaints among all the reviewers at places like Amazon. No one wants a player that sounds iffy. If I buy an iPod, I know it'll work.

    Two final points: Where's FireWire? USB 2.0 High-speed is supposed to be as fast, but many say it just isn't. Also, will Creative offer incentives on their product? Apple's "Jam and Cram" rebate this past fall meant many people picked up 20 GB iPods for $69 (after $200 rebate, received when buying an iPod with a laptop).

    Creative, just focus on what your player does, caring about Apple only as much as you make your product easy to interoperate anywhere an iPod does.
  • How about.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Chicane-UK ( 455253 ) <chicane-ukNO@SPAMntlworld.com> on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:37AM (#11384544) Homepage
    Less talk and more action. When companies TALK about doing something, but actually don't seem to actually be DOING a lot of anything, people lose interest.

    Creative have been at this for long enough, and I don't see why they don't just channel all this hype up into a bloody good product rather than releasing products which try and keep up with what Apple are doing. Nothing of theirs that I have seen so far has been particularly innovative - just one big game of catchup.

    Make the killer product ffs and then wow us with it..
  • Stick with Apple (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:38AM (#11384555)
    Apple is superior to Creative in more than just usability and design - Creative has no qualms about rushing poorly tested products to market.

    I bought a spiffy new flash 128 Mb Creative Muvo that had clearly been rushed to market. When it locked up about three months later, I learned it had not one but TWO crippling bugs.

    1. Unplugging the Muvo's USB connection without doing the "Safely Remove Hardware" thing in Windows can make the Muvo permanently lock up (can't be turned on). I didn't do that (but lots of people do).

    2. Attempting to fill the Muvo's flash to capacity can make it permanently lock up. I did that, as does everybody.

    Creative's warranty is 90 days and I couldn't get my $220 + tax. I keep my worthless Muvo as a reminder - they won't fool me again.

    If you must buy a Creative product, do some research and beware of buying something that's only been on the market for a few months.
  • by standards ( 461431 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @09:42AM (#11384579)
    Apple is positioning itself to take advantage of the (shockingly lousy) flash-based Music Player marketplace. Apple's move gives opportunity to Creative.

    There are two groups of music player vendors: Apple, and Everyone Else. Although Creative designs some very good products, they are part of that Everyone Else group. Creative has the very difficult task of differentiating their products from the hundreds of other competitors to John Q. Public.

    The iPod Shuffle will certainly clear out weaker competitors by competing directly against all of the products in the "Everyone Else" group. This effect on the Flash marketplace will hold even if Apple doesn't top the flash-based market.

    With the resulting shake-up of the overall MP marketplace, Creative will have a great opportunity (and perhaps their only opportunity) to build brand recognition. Creative will have to compete directly against Apple, instead of competeing mostly against the no-names like M-link and SuperMP.

    To take on Apple, Creative will need to beat Apple in all areas at once: smaller packages, lower cost, more features, significantly more capacity, top-notch customer support, excellent software, and excellent ease-of-use.

    Dropping the ball in any one of these areas dooms Creative to a sublimating marketshare.

    Creative can do it - they make very good products - but they'll have to jump in with both feet and take some serious risks before someone else makes it into the pool.

    ---
    Now back to my regular market analysis job.
  • "Me-too but MORE..." (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @10:18AM (#11384861) Homepage
    I can't think of any case offhand where "Me-too only with more" has been a successful marketing strategy. This is lazy marketing...

    Of course, if you ask existing customers who like and use a product X what they ''want,'' those customers, just having faced a difficult struggle choosing from different price points in a product line will say something like "I'd like to get the features of the top model at the price of the entry model." Or if they're more ambitious, "I'd like twice the storage, half the size, and half the price." (About the only thing you won't hear from iPod owners is "And I'd like it to play the music twice as fast!).

    What the strategy never takes into account is that in the time it takes to bring the me-too-but-more product to market, the manufacturer of the product they're gunning for will probably improve their product.

    As for "choice," most computer users I know never change the home page of their browser from the one that's set by the manufacturer. Consumers will happily buy into the all-Apple iPod ecosystem and won't care unless it becomes obvious that the PC download music stores have dropped prices to, say, $0.25 per song, or have a grotesquely larger selection.

    It may be a shame, but all the issues about lock-in, DRM, etc. don't matter to consumers until they personally get bitten, and so far Apple has taken great care not to bite consumers much.

    It also helps that Apple's stuff works. The number of articles I've read about "iPod killers" by PC-centric sources that acknowledge up front that whatever they're testing wouldn't install, or froze, or had DRM authorization problems is astonishing.

    A friend of mine who is just an average PC-centric engineer bought an iPod for his wife. Because it was reputedly a good product and easy to use. His wife, who is mildly computer-phobic, had no problems with it. It just worked. A few weeks later he bought one for himself. He likes it.

    Another friend who bought some fairly pricey high-end gadget from Creative, I think, reminds me of all the personal computer enthusiasts of the late 1970s. It constantly presents him with challenges, which he enjoys surmounting. He is a chorus director who brings his player and powered speakers to rehearsals to play us things. It never works, and there is always some good reason why he can't play that particular thing that particular day.
  • by amichalo ( 132545 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @11:25AM (#11385381)
    After listening to Apple's Q1'05 Earnings call [apple.com] I have to say that I am concerned that the music [musicmatch.com] stores [napster.com] besides [buymusic.com] iTunes [itunes.com] will soon go the way of so many dot-coms. Here's two reasons:
    - Apple stated in the call they have 70% market share in on-line downloads.
    - Apple stated in the call they posted a small profit on the sale of now >230,000,000 songs (admittedly, these were not all in Q1'05).

    If the $0.99/9.99 model is so razor thin that one company with 70% of the market is eaking by, how can six other companies who share the remaining 30% of the market hope to survive?

    Napster seems to be in the lead (don't they have about 10% market share?) but it is primarily due to the subscription model they have, not selling tracks/albums. Sounds like an opportunity for Apple to swoop in and service the sub-market for subscribers to me.

    But back on subject, the Creative statement that they have some type of advantage because their player submits to the DRM of half a dozen music stores that are loosing money just says to me that Creative is tightening their seatbelt on a sinking ship.
  • by fahrvergnugen ( 228539 ) <fahrv@[ ]mail.com ['hot' in gap]> on Monday January 17, 2005 @11:34AM (#11385463) Homepage
    While I agree that competition in the portable mp3 player market is a good thing, I think Creative's a non-starter.

    They win on price, I'll give you that. If you run down the features list of a Nomad vs. an iPod, the Nomad looks good, has a slightly bigger disk, and is $100 cheaper. Sure, it might be the size of a paperback instead of the size of a pack of cigarettes, but good design isn't necessarily worth $100 to most people. As long as you can plug the thing into your computer and get down to the business of cataloging and playing back music, then it should be fine.

    Here's Creative's first Achilles heel. Where iTunes is simple and intuitive, Creative's software is terrible. I say this to you as a fellow user of open source software, where function often takes precedence over form: Their software SUCKS. It is hands-down the one of the worst applications that I have ever used. Where iTunes gets out of the way, Creative's application stands in front of you like a bouncer, arms crossed, giving you that look that says you're not cool enough to come in here. Moving songs and files to and from your Nomad is an unbelievably tedious chore. Eventually, frustrated and tired, I tried to use Windows Media Player to transfer music to my device. That's how bad. Add to that the constant upsell involved in using a new Nomad. Many Nomads come with a lot of encrypted music already on disk, just waiting for you to enter your credit card number and unlock it. Removing these songs to get your disk space back is frustrating, and being asked to shell out more money after you've just spent hundreds is insulting.

    Fortunately, (pimping time) Red Chair Software has come to the rescue in this regard. With their NotMad software, using the Nomad stops sucking. Further, they license per-player, not per-copy, so you can synch multiple PCs against your player on the same license, something Apple can't do.

    This is how incredibly bad Creative's Nomad software is: There's a company doing brisk business selling aftermarket replacements for it. You don't see anyone even trying to do the same for iTunes.

    Fortunately, NotMad is pretty cheap at $30. So now with your Nomad, you're only saving $70 over the iPod.

    Still, that's $70 put to other uses, until the Nomad breaks (and it will). Anecdotal research, while certainly not definitive, seems to show a very high failure rate for Nomads. Certainly my room-mate's broke inside of a year (the headphone jack has become de-soldered from the board). Learn from his mistake, and make sure you buy the extended warranty. That's another $30, bringing your total cost savings down to $40.

    So now your total savings for a Nomad are about $40 over a comparable iPod. For $40, you may as well just get the market leader. Until Creative can improve the reliability of their products, and write a good software package to go with their hardware, they're going to keep losing.

    Frankly, that's fine by me.
  • by Blimey85 ( 609949 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @12:38PM (#11386100)
    My wife wanted an mp3 player for Christmas. She decided that 40 gigs was about the right size. We then went looking at various models and decided on one from Creative. We figured she would give that a go and if she didn't like it, we would drop another $200 for an iPod that was comparable. That's double what this one cost.

    She's had it for about 3 weeks now and loves it. Since she usually goes for the pricey stuff I thought we'd be going back for the iPod but she likes this one well enough to want to keep it. I think the added cost of the iPod was a factor. When one item costs twice as much as another, and doesn't offer twice as much, why buy the more expensive item? We can get two Creatives, one for her and one for me, for the cost of one iPod. I think iPod's are way overpriced, but even if they were on par, I haven't seen what makes them so special.

    The Creative does everything my wife wants it to do... which is basically play music. Nothing more, nothing less. It shows the song info on the screen for each song and the random works fine. What else do you really need from an mp3 player? Sure I guess it might be nice if it could grill me a steak but it was purchased to do only one thing, and to do that one thing well. It does that. What else could/should we be asking of it?

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday January 17, 2005 @12:49PM (#11386232)
    One thing I have yet to see from the MP3 player market is the idea of-coopting the accessories developed around the iPod.

    One thing that certainly does not hurth the sales of the iPod is the vast (and growing) accessory market that makes things like waterproof cases, jackets, armbands, etc. for the iPod. I'm not sure why companies have not thought to release players with an identical form-factor that could make use of these devices - a really advanced goal would be dock compatibiilty so you could use the current iPod remote and things like the tape adaptor that controls the iPod through the tape deck controls!

    Perhaps the risk of lawsuit is too great, but I figured someone would try.
  • by DrRobert ( 179090 ) * <rgbuice@mac. c o m> on Monday January 17, 2005 @12:53PM (#11386275) Homepage
    The ipod works with lots of download sites. I have an ipod, I don't buy from itunes. I download a lot of legal tunes. I have used emusic, disclogic, mindawn, magnatune, digitalsoundboard.net, studiodownloads.net, livephish.com, primuslive, live metallica.com, and some others I am probably forgetting. If none of these places have the music I want, I just order the cd for usually less than $12 new or $8 used. (which usually winds up being cheaper than most of the download sites especially when you include buring and labelling cds) The "doesn't work with any major retailer" complaint seems to mean "doesn't work with windows media drm".

    On the other hand market research seems to indicate that people do not want to own music, they simply want to rent it, by paying a subscription service and using the new windows media drm to allow subsription services to be used on portable players. If this is so, it will give M$ another monopoly and Apple will be screwed. I want to own all my music, the rest is radio. Rental is probably the music industry's dream scheme, they can sell you the same music over and over in perpetuity without having to come up with anything new.

    Another take on this issue is that MP3 players have had the slowest and least market penetration (15% of households - Forbes) of any major consumer electronics product. So maybe this is not the wave of the future... maybe we don't know what's coming at all.

    The ideal situation would be hundreds of these little sites popping up so that no one site has a huge selection, but you can get what you want somewhere with no drm. Lots of competition, good for everybody. Certainly successful bands could all make there own sites (Metallica, Phish, Primus) and screw the record companies now. Even some smaller bands are making a living with their own sites. This would also be the best situation for the ipod. Buy lossless music and then pick your own format, don't let someone pick it for you.
  • by Ride-My-Rocket ( 96935 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @01:08PM (#11386446) Homepage
    I don't understand how Creative can be so critical, given the success Apple's had in dominating the hard-drive portable audio player market. Or has Creative forgotten that iPod now commands a 65% share of that market right now [nytimes.com]? The main reason they released the iPod Shuttle was to grow their share of the overall (hard drive + flash) portable music player market, of which they only have 33% right now. To summarize: they wanted to gain in the lower end of the market, so they had to come up with a winning lower-end product. Eliminate the display to cut costs? Seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.

    Even beyond that, Creative has exactly zero reasons to be critical of Apple's design and marketing, since that's what they excel at. For starters, check out a recent NY Times article on what the iPod Mini offers [nytimes.com], versus other iPod-killer wannabees. Here's what the article says on how Creative's Zen Micro player, Creative's mid-range product, compares to Apple's iPod Mini:

    Pros (Mid-Range)
    * Voice recording capability.

    * FM radio / recorder.
    * Removable lithium-ion battery.
    * More space (5GB vs 4GB for Mini)
    * More colors (10 vs 5 for Mini)
    Cons (Mid-Range)
    * Crappy touch-sensitive vertical strip.

    * Crappy non-audio file mgmt capabilities.
    * Crappy recorded sound quality.
    * A bit heavier (3.8oz vs 3.6oz for Mini)

    The price is the same ($250), but even if the Zen Micro offers more in the way of features, the quality of those features is lacking. At the bottom end of the market, which is more price-sensitive in nature, you have Creative's Nomad MuVo line of products, the most inexpensive of which are:
    * MuVo TX 512MB @ $119.00

    * MuVo NX 256MB @ $89.99
    * MuVo 128MB @ $49.99
    So now along comes Apple's iPod Shuttle, which lacks some of the more salient features of the MuVo, but offers more space for less money per MB.

    Pros (Low-End)
    * Better price-per-MB ratio.

    * Smaller form factor
    * Lighter in weight
    * Supports AAC, Audible v2-4
    * Add'l hardware available (e.g. FM radio)
    * Compatible with iTunes
    * 12-mo limited warranty (vs 3-12 for MuVo's)
    * Extended warranty available ($60)
    Cons (Low-End)
    * No display

    * No way to lock controls
    * Does not support WMA
    * Not compatible with other online music
    stores

    The only place I can see Creative possibly beating out Apple is at the top-end of the market, with their Zen Touch (20/40GB) and Zen Xtra (30/40/60GB) players. Despite being a bit larger and heavier than Apple's iPod, they offer a superior price-per-GB ratio. Then again, if Creative's problems with their mid-range products appear in their high-end products, that may not stop consumers from seriously considering the iPod, even though it's far more expensive per GB.

    Personally, I'd rather buy a player that's well engineered (hardware + software), and built by a company that stands behind its products -- that company being Apple. Apple offers a fairly straightforward set of base models, with a growing lineup of 3rd-party accessories that serve to expand the appeal to their products. Creative, in many of these respects, doesn't meet these high standards.

    Oh, and before you call me an Apple weenie: I don't like Macs, I don't own an iPod, and I own an old-ass Creative Nomad II mp3 player (whose flaws have been evident from the very start). In all likeliness, I'll probably snag either an iPod Mini or Shuttle at some point in the near future; I haven't decided whether giving up the LCD display and capacity is worth the cost savings.
  • My Experience (Score:3, Informative)

    by dmarx ( 528279 ) <dmarxNO@SPAMhushmail.com> on Monday January 17, 2005 @01:24PM (#11386620) Homepage Journal
    My iPod's battery died. Luckily, it was still under warranty, but I was less than impressed with the prospect of having to mail the player back to Apple for a damn battery. So when I got the iPod back, I sold it and bought a Zen. So far, I've been happy with it. It can hold the same amount of music as my iPod for less money, the music sounds the same, I don't use the iTunes store, so that's a non-issue for me, and I don't really like the touch pad anyway. I think the Creative is the better product, and can definitely compete with the iPod.
  • by kf6auf ( 719514 ) on Monday January 17, 2005 @06:32PM (#11389502)

    Playing music is fun with the Creative Zen Touch's easy navigation. Built to hold 10,000(1) songs with an incredible 24 hour(2) battery life at 128kbps MP3 or 32 hour(2) at 48kbps.
    (1) Based on 4 minutes per song at 128kbps MP3 encoding and 64kbps WMA encoding
    (2) 24 hours battery life at 128kbps MP3 or 32 hours at 48kbps MP3

    From Creative's own site [creative.com].

    From this one would expect that it holds 10,000 128 kbps MP3s, right? No. It'll only hold 5,000 of those, nevermind the second half of footnote one or the fact that one might easily assume that the 128 kbps MP3 in the advertisment applies to both the battery life and the capacity, the capacity is entirely based on 64 kbps WMA encoding. Finally, they claim 32 hours of battery life at 48kbps MP3. WTF? Who listens to 48kbps MP3?

    I refuse to buy a Creative Player if for no other reason than their misleading advertising. The goal is not to see how small one can make the bitrate to fit more 4 minute songs on the same size drive. Use 128 kbps like everyone else please.

    I recently got an iPod (for Christmas) and all I have to say is that I am very pleased. It's battery is supposed to last 12 hours with 128 kbps (AAC) encoded files and when I decided to test it to see how long it would last, it lasted over 15 hours on 192 kbps MP3s, well above its advertised capacity especially when one takes into account that 192 kbps encoding requires more reading from the hard drive than 128 kbps encoding.

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