Apple Has No Backbone 293
Apple, a company that loves to talk about its values, has this week demonstrated that when it comes to China -- one of its biggest markets and where most of its iPhones and other products are assembled taking full benefit of low-cost labors -- even the Steve Jobs-founded company lacks a backbone. The company has bowed down to Chinese pressure and pulled an app from the Chinese App Store that helped pro-democracy protesters track cops to ensure their safety. Apple, a company with nearing $1 trillion in market cap, said the app "violates our guidelines and local laws."
The company has also pulled news app Quartz, which has been extensively covering the protests in Hong Kong, from the app store. The explanation from Apple, the company which has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to plaster every mall on the face of this planet in recent weeks to tell us that its new iPhone models have an ultra-wide lens? Crickets. On the Chinese App Store, Apple also does not offer The New York Times app because it "violates its policies." That's right. The New York Times, the biggest publication on the planet that wins tons of awards for its reportage each year and is celebrated across the globe and is a partner of Apple for Apple News subscription service, violates Apple's policies in China.
A few other times when x-ray report showed Apple did not have a backbone.
The company has also pulled news app Quartz, which has been extensively covering the protests in Hong Kong, from the app store. The explanation from Apple, the company which has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to plaster every mall on the face of this planet in recent weeks to tell us that its new iPhone models have an ultra-wide lens? Crickets. On the Chinese App Store, Apple also does not offer The New York Times app because it "violates its policies." That's right. The New York Times, the biggest publication on the planet that wins tons of awards for its reportage each year and is celebrated across the globe and is a partner of Apple for Apple News subscription service, violates Apple's policies in China.
A few other times when x-ray report showed Apple did not have a backbone.
yeah NO (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Insightful)
They could absolutely choose not to obey the Chinese law. It's just that they would then have to accept whatever punishment the Chinese government decides to impose on them. Which they are absolutely not willing to risk.
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed, this is the implicit "deal with the devil" you make to work in China. Your executive team doesn't get to say anything, in any media, negative or political about the country or its leadership. Ever. Don't like it? Don't do business in China, and let someone else who doesn't have such scruples take your place.
Re: yeah NO (Score:3)
Let's see 1.2 billion customers or nothing?
Apple like all capitalist companies are going after profits first. And losing out on 1.2 billion sales is something Wall Street doesn't take kindly on.
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Google hasn't launched a search engine in China. That also means no Android in China.
They aren't saints either but they gave up that market when Apple didn't.
Re: yeah NO (Score:5, Informative)
For example, consider a company that values protecting the environment. While they could make more money by, say, dumping the toxic chemicals from their textiles plant directly into the ocean, this would violate their core principles and values, so they decide to not do this even though it means less profit.
What Apple is saying is that they value the access to the Chinese market more than they value the human rights and safety of their customers. So, what I am saying is that I will do my best to continue not buying products from Apple.
Re: yeah NO (Score:4, Insightful)
Cite one. Cite an appellate or Supreme Court case that even identifies that as a mandatory duty.
It's a myth with no legal backing [evonomics.com].
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NO.
That has been debunked over and over here. In brief, Cook is obligated to act in a manner that in his honest belief is in the best interests of the company. That can include not making a deal with the devil that promises short term gains and long term losses. As long as he can show that the expectation of long term losses from the short term gains was not unreasonable, he's in the clear legally.
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Worse, it would actually violate OUR laws. Tim Cook has a fiduciary obligation to steward Apple to its maximum profit.
That's often mis-stated and mis-quoted, including by you above.
They have a fiduciary duty that means they must consider profit as a part of their decisions. That does not mean --- nor has it ever meant --- that executives must maximize profits, nor consider them above all others.
Their duty must consider many elements. Fundamentally they have both a duty of care and a duty of loyalty. This is expressed with many different interests, many elements they must consider as part of decisions and operations. Pro
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Bullshit they are an American Company they should face no punishment from China whatsoever other than being declared "Persona non grata" and barred from doing business there.
If China tries to impose any fine or such on them they should be able to flip the PRC the bird. If the PRC tries to do anything about it the American People should spine up and demand our government put a stop to it; with whatever force is required.
It time we stop tolerating and enabling an evil totalitarian state. China is one of the
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit they are an American Company they should face no punishment from China whatsoever other than being declared "Persona non grata" and barred from doing business there.
Yes? That's why they did it. Because they didn't want to be barred from doing business in China. That is a whole lot of fucking money.
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And, they are beholden to their shareholders. They have to maintain a fiduciary responsibility and do what's in their best interest of their stockholders.
I would venture many of shareholders are .... ummmmm. ... Chinese.
Re: yeah NO (Score:5, Informative)
Well currently its their entire bank account. Forget about people buying and using iPhones there, they are all manufactured there. If china were to just go in and shut that shit down, it would be a very long time before Apple could recover.
But Google is no better so lets not get on an android would not make this mistake thought train. We have read plenty of articles on here about how they manipulate search in compliance with whatever China wanted to oppress.
China is not the only source of cheap labor. Itâ(TM)s time to start building fucking factories somewhere else. China thinks they can be the bully because everybody put their eggs in the Chinese basket. It is time to find other baskets. That sword swings both ways. They are more dependent on us buying the crap they make. If their manufacturing where to drop by 50% more chaos would ensue over there.
Here is something else that is going on I just realized..
Every time I use my iPhone to dictate and I say the word China Siri is spelling it Chyna.
In what universe does that make sense unless you are trying to hide from the filters
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Every time I use my iPhone to dictate and I say the word China Siri is spelling it Chyna.
In what universe does that make sense unless you are trying to hide from the filters
What do you have against former WWE wrestlers? [wikipedia.org]
Apps are still out there, just not in store. (Score:5, Interesting)
Sly apple got the apps out there. I'm sure nearly everyone who wants it has it by now. And by restoring it to the store breifly they created enough publicity for it that it probably got distributed far wider than it would have otherwise. It's still on people's phones. JUst not in the app store.
But thinking realistically, not magically, what more could you expect? apple can't violate the laws of the countries it operates in. CHina would just ban iphones form carriers: keeping the app available would not have really kept the app available if you can't use an iphone on any carrier. And as a double whammy for apple, china controls the means of production (to use a marxist term), so they could lose not just china but their entire business.
Spine? turns out it's not as important as one thinks (to use the monster versus aliens phrase).
Apple threaded this needle by distributing the clean needles then stopping when asked. THey are out there now doing the maximum possible benefit that was possible under the circumstances.
The only real lesson here is not to base your bussiness model on the good will of authoritarian regimes. At the moment one can't actually say basing in the US under the whim of our would-be autocrat is a good idea either. But it would be a less bad idea. Still companies cannot dictate terms to the countries they operate in. It's that simple.
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Re: yeah NO (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. When China pulled the plug on Google, they eventually responded by stripping everything the Chinese government objected to from Google Search in China https://www.dailywire.com/news... [dailywire.com] .
Nope. When that story broke it provoked huge pushback from Google employees, including a mass walkout and many prominent resignations. As a result, the project was cancelled. Google does not censor search results for China. However, China blocks Google search at the Great Firewall.
There's been strong public push back, so who knows how it'll play out, but Google's trying to satisfy the Chinese government, too.
It's already played out. The project was cancelled. More due to employee pushback than public pushback.
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Well currently its their entire bank account. Forget about people buying and using iPhones there, they are all manufactured there. If china were to just go in and shut that shit down, it would be a very long time before Apple could recover.
The untold story is the game of chicken at play. Yes, Apple would suffer immense financial harm if they could not longer manufacture phones in China the next day. However, eliminating more than one million jobs in China in one day would also have an impact on the Chinese economy. The Chinese government is very sensitive to the prospect of economic turmoil that might turn into social unrest. That's why the huge debt bubble is more acceptable than potential seeds of economically driven political oppositio
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But Google is no better so lets not get on an android would not make this mistake thought train. We have read plenty of articles on here about how they manipulate search in compliance with whatever China wanted to oppress.
Google actually doesn't do that. Google, or at least some executives in Google, would like to do that... that's what the whole Project Dragonfly thing was, the thing that pissed off a whole bunch of employees and got cancelled as a result. But as of now, Google doesn't do that. Google just doesn't offer web search in China, except whatever Chinese people can get through the Great Firewall (basically nothing).
When Google did offer Chinese web search, the approach was just to spider the web from inside t
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not just selling in China, either. They simply don't have any alternatives for building their phones, regardless of margin. Samsung bailed on China and makes everything in South Korea now, but Apple didn't plan for this contingency, apparently. They're in a bind, and Cook needs to figure something out, pronto. For all the talk of Apple wanting to control their tech, they're now beholden to China, and it's equally bad.
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They are using their factories in Thailand...
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What's to stop China from just making iPhones without Apple?
And that's the real problem with doing manufacturing in China...
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Informative)
Bullshit they are an American Company
No, they are multinational corporation that does its bookkeeping in a tax haven.
Re:yeah NO (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll say one thing for it. This whole Hong Kong/China uproar has done something that I no longer thought was even possible in the U.S. It's actually managed to unite both Republicans and Democrats on an issue.
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Don't forget that all of Apple's iPhones, all of Apple's laptops, and most of their desktop systems are made in China. They pretty much have them over a barrel at this point, and China can force them to censor whatever they want them to.
I don't agree with a lot of president Trump's ideas, but moving more of Apple's manufacturing back to the US doesn't seem like a bad idea right about now.
Re: yeah NO (Score:3)
Except it is too expensive. Vietnam or some African country will get it long before America gets manufacturing back
If you listen to the companies that are moving out of China that is exactly what is happening.
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Actually manufacturing in the US requires a consistent trade policy that promotes US manufacturing. So not random tariffs imposed and cancelled at a whim, but a consistent strategy that companies can use to base strategic decisions. So far, under Trump, US manufacturing is dropping dramatically, not growing. https://www.reuters.com/articl... [reuters.com] . You have to ignore the flag-waving and pay attention to the actual policies and their real world impact.
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China:
Second Largest Economy
Most populous country
Key vendor to supply chain
Communist Controlled
In short, as a company even one as large as Apple, you are going to need a larger support structure to stand up to China. Including effective leadership in the US (which we do not have), support from other economies (which we do not have), a transition plan to quickly move out of China.
Like or Hate the current policy stances of the US government. The real failure is the heavy handed and sloppy implementation of
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So, Chinese companies selling stuff in America can absolutely choose not to obey American law? Then what the fuck is all that noise about Huawei?
Try thinking it through a little before you talk.
Apple is only removing the apps from the chinese appstore, not from the american appstore. Nothing stops a chinese person from changing their location to USA and downloading the app, you fucking moron.
Re: yeah NO (Score:3, Interesting)
As a shareholder, I am glad they are not taking such risk.
Re: yeah NO (Score:5, Insightful)
They certainly do have a choice. They can refuse to comply with unjust laws and then deal with the consequences. It's going to cost them but it's a choice.
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What the fuck has this got to do with backbone? I hate apple but they get no choice as to whether they follow the law. Nor do I ever want companies to be able to choose whether to follow the law, they are already fucked up enough without being given a free reign to decide what are good and bad laws.
You just don't hate Apple enough. When you hate a company as much as msmash does, there is no possible proper Apple move.
And smash needs to understand thet he has no idea what "market cap" is.
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he has
I always had it in my head at msmash (Ms. Mash) was a female... But, I've been wrong before, so there's that.
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Nor do I ever want companies to be able to choose whether to follow the law, they are already fucked up enough without being given a free reign
Uses phrases he doesn't understand. Comment disqualified.
Re:yeah NO (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is that Apple is speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
On one side, you have the infamous 1984 commercial - implying that they are against Big Brother.
Then on the other side, they comply with the Big Brother rules - effectively allying themselves with Big Brother.
From a business point of view, what they are doing in China makes sense: China is a big market and Apple wants a piece of it.
There's an old saying: Your words start to lose value when your actions don't match.
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shareholders only care about money (Score:2)
Re:shareholders only care about money (Score:5, Insightful)
What's this? A company that only thinks of its profits? Whatever will the world come to?
Companies aren't your friends. They aren't people with personalities. They are multicellular predators who will do anything, including turn themselves inside-out, to survive. Trying to imply that a company "has no backbone", - is bad because it doesn't stand up for human rights - is like expecting a shark not to chew your legs off because it respects your rights as a person. Companies are only barely restrained by law, and if there is a gap anywhere, they will flow into it and keep eating.
Disney, for example. Disney isn't "the mouse"; it's a pack of rats. A pack of hungry rats.
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https://i.imgur.com/VF2sJ9e.png
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Sure, if you think in a vacuum.
Are you implying apple care about more than profits? The circumstances seem to disagree with you. Already the richest company in the world and they still want more fucking money.
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People seem to like giving them money. What should they do? Throw the money away?
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China has been known to retaliate directly against employees of a company which defies their laws. This isn't as simple as "it's all about the money."
Are you suggesting China would go to the factories iphones are made in a start breaking legs or something til apple complies? That's a nice under paid, over exploited work force you have there ...
Walled Garden (Score:5, Interesting)
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It's illegal to have anything else running on your phone OTHER than the Chinese approved fork of Android or iOS. And those Chinese versions ONLY allow you to download from the Chinese Android/Apple app stores. So, it's even more walled off than anything else in the world.
Of course you could jailbreak your phone, or run a VPN, but if the authorities find out you did, (and they *CAN* because they control all the cell towers and
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There are ways to install apps without going through the appstore. But the NYT thing - you can always just use the browser. And pay via the browser. It's not that hard...
Related /. story (Score:5, Informative)
If you're confused, you're not alone. Here's the previous Slashdot story: Apple Bans App / Apple Reverses Ban On App That Allowed Hong Kong Protestors to Track Police Movements [slashdot.org].
And here's non-paywalled story about how it is now banned again [reuters.com].
Dependency (Score:3)
It's not about having a backbone or not this case.
Not only China produces iPhones, dozens of iPhone components are produced in China, so the Chinese government has a leverage against Apple. Apple cannot risk its business by alienating a foreign country.
Now, the real question is whether or not Apple wants to decrease its margins by removing this dependency. In a perfect world they would manufacture their products in the US from the components made entirely in the US.
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It's not about having a backbone or not this case.
Not only China produces iPhones, dozens of iPhone components are produced in China, so the Chinese government has a leverage against Apple. Apple cannot risk its business by alienating a foreign country.
Now, the real question is whether or not Apple wants to decrease its margins by removing this dependency. In a perfect world they would manufacture their products in the US from the components made entirely in the US.
Well, it brings up a valid point. Is it worth saving a little bit of money manufacturing in China over the US, or even Korea, or Europe, IF you're forced to make politically motivated moves that might hurt your business in the rest of the world.
There is a hidden and silent cost to doing business in China, they will expect you to bend over and take a poker up the arse- are you willing to lose money? Activision and Apple are certainly going to lose sales and public feel-good factor over bending to China- h
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Yeah, I wish I could boycott Apple, the NBA, and Blizzard but I don't buy any of their shit already.
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Same here. My significant other almost talked me into buying Diablo III. I didn't.
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In a perfect world they would manufacture their products in the US from the components made entirely in the US.
They tried, it didn't work.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0... [nytimes.com]
Depending on for profits to defend human rights? (Score:2)
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Don't like the rules in another country? Fine - don't do business there.
In short, that's precisely what we are saying. Fine, don't do business there.
Apple appears to be doing literally everything it can legally do to alienate customers. New iDevice is limp, doubled down on garbage keyboards, Catalina Wine Killer, kowtowing to China... Perhaps what they should do is pull out of the USA, and go get fucked. They can move entirely to China, where they can do nothing but the bidding of China.
Americans like to think of themselves as free, and supporting freedom. Bending over for Chin
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I don't think that's going to wind up being a popular stance here.
I agree with everything in your post and wish this were true, but the girls with the yoga pants tapping on their iphones don't even know people in Hong Kong are protesting.
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I agree with everything in your post and wish this were true, but the girls with the yoga pants tapping on their iphones don't even know people in Hong Kong are protesting.
For the vast majority of them, that's true. But since they're Apple fans, they may well read this news about Apple, and it might actually be the news item that makes them aware. They certainly won't care enough to replace their iDevice in disgust now, but it might influence their next purchase. I'm not silly enough to think that massive changes will happen now because of this, but I do think it matters.
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I do think it's interesting that all of this has happened at once. People have been talking about China's fuckery for years, but nobody cared. During the 2016 republican debates Trump starts going off about China stealing technology and Jeb! is all "come on, man...!" Nobody cared. But all of a sudden China is fucking with sportsball, the iShinies, vidya, and now people give a shit. Interesting.
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Well, yeah, if you mess with the circuses part of, "bread and circuses", people will get mad.
Says the person with no skin (Score:2)
It's easy for someone with literally no skin in the game to be critical of anyone else.
Then again, if it weren't so easy, there probably wouldn't be many slashdot articles, or posts like this one, or replies to posts like this one.
Figuratively "no skin in the game" (Score:2, Informative)
Figuratively. You meant figuratively, because you're using... a figure of speech.
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I mean, I bet msmash is also not risking literal skin over Apple and China, either, so....
That's because it's a piece of fruit (Score:3)
and not a vertebrate.
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and not a vertebrate.
A piece of fruit 42 years old. Must look like more of a vertebrate now.
1984 Apple's slogan: Think different (Score:3)
Is dead and buried in the same graveyard as Google's: “Do no evil”
https://youtu.be/cFEarBzelBs [youtu.be]
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Posted the wrong video link.
Here it is: https://youtu.be/l3jjKuTAPHA [youtu.be]
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Dupe (Score:2)
Slashdot already covered the removal of HKLive from the appstore, and its subsequent reinstatement. Do we have to rehash the same topic a third time in one week?
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If Apple wants to repeatedly waffle trying to have it both ways then they will probably end up with multiple articles written every time the wind blows them over.
Evade (Score:2)
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That's a nice company you got there (Score:5, Funny)
That's a nice company you got there,
it's a pity if something should happen to it.
-China
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Those are nice factories you have.
Would be a shame if nobody used them anymore.
- Apple
Corporations aren't vigilantes - stop expecting it (Score:2, Insightful)
It's our *governments* who should be pressuring China and forcing sanctions against them for violating human rights
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Why is it that people who take an Adam Smith view of economics always forget the important role the consumer takes in such a system? It's not wrong for consumers to apply pressure to a company. If the company and its shareholders see that consumers are taking their money elsewhere because they don't like the way said company does business it would seam that company should reconsider how they do business. I mean, isn't that exactly how it's supposed to work? In fact, I would argue that, in such a system,
The true cost of offshoring .... (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to me that ALL of this comes down to the same core problem. When American businesses opted to manufacture products in other countries, they ceded some control or potential control over their business operations.
You can't always have your cake and eat it too. If you want to build things in China because the labor is dirt cheap and they're able to make the quantities you desire in your desired time-frame (because they've established such big factories for the purpose)? Great, but not only are you risking theft of your intellectual property and juggling language barriers and overseas shipping costs, but you ALSO may find yourself on the wrong side of their laws with some of the things you wanted to offer or do.
Not saying I give apple a "pass" on this, but let's look at the bigger picture here too. Google went to the effort of making a search engine for China that returns different results than the "regular" one, and that's a site that's FREE for people to use and doesn't involve physical product manufacturing on Chinese soil at all! That's from the "Do no evil!" company.
Ultimately, people have to decide if they're good with the products and services they use costing a lot less because we leverage a global economy, or if they'd rather have things much more insular and pay a lot more.
Apple is not a backbone provider ... (Score:2, Insightful)
... and complies with and conforms to the laws of the country in which it is immersed.
Apple is not to blame and neither is China.
China is not to be confused with America. Get over it. Europe has strict privacy laws that are an effort to protect its citizens. America does not give a shit about citizen privacy.
That's not a pivot. It's a demonstration that indignation is often applied in cases of special interests.
Fuck China. It's a goddam sovereign country. Fix "America first."
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The U.S. is a large country and could, before Trump, walk and chew gum at the same time. Turning the world's economic and political systems over to the Chinese and Tsar Putin is not going to end well.
Deja Vu! (Score:2)
This was already featured here on slashdot. And another subsequent story how the reinstated the app.
Surprised? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, it is in the rules of the game. Profit first. Actually profit only.
I am always surprised when everyone is shocked that the system does what is intended to do. As a eurotrash (as some call us on /.) I am always amazed how Americans would accept any shit, including destruction of their core values such as freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of whatever...so long as it comes from a private entity and not the evil government. Sure, I do understand and share the fear from tyrannical gov's (born and raised under communism) but common.
The usual defense is that companies do not have armies and that you can punish them via the market.
The problem is:
- companies like the tech giants have monopolized all relevant means of communication, effectively turning the "public square" into "private square" and evading all checks and balances you have installed to level the public square, particularly freedom of speech, association and peaceful protest. They enjoy total protection and independence as private entities while evading all the responsibilities as de-facto owners of the public square.
- In 20+ years living in the West I have never seen an effective boycott against any company on any issue. Voting with you wallet never works. Hey, computer geeks, how is you Sony boycott going on (for an example)?
In related news - could Activision write a different CoC? What kind of CoC is the one that says that on the sole discretion of Activision if you offend ANYONE you are toast? It is a universal get out of jail card to cancel ANYONE at ANYTIME for ANY reason. Instead, it should have said that you are not allowed to break the law while speaking on their platform. The US law.
Remember, historically if someone would open the doors of the castle and let the invaders in, it was usually the trade guilds. They don't give a fuck about anything if you guarantee them the profits. And, I cannot help but remind everyone the saying "The capitalists would gladly sell you the rope you would use to hang them with". Greed is good!
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
apple needs easy sideloading like android and this (Score:5, Interesting)
apple needs easy side loading like android and this issue goes away.
It's not just Apple. It's Everyone (Score:5, Insightful)
"loves to talk about its values" citation? (Score:2)
For those of us who don't go to all the trouble to get ads, I'm wondering if that's really true. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but the only thing I know of that Apple ever talks about is its revenue. Where can I find Apple boasting about how its values are unusual?
Or not unusual?
I just realized that I don't even see a concrete claim here as to what they say about their values. For all I know, Apple is widely known for denigrating its values and constant
Meet globalization (Score:2)
If you're gonna play globalization, you gotta play by the local rules. It's ironic the same people complaining about low wages in other countries and bashing products they produce are also ones that preach tolerance and understanding. They don't understand that low wage in another country may buy what they need and there could be less want of trivial shit.
Boo hoo (Score:3)
Apple has enough money to build new factories and its entire supply chain. This is all about greed.
Also Nike, Disney, and NBA (Score:3)
South Park nailed it.
Re:A Distinction: Violence and Consistency (Score:5, Insightful)
That's an awfully slippery slope. Should we also ban email, text nessages, flashlights, and all other signaling mechanisms?
No. We shouldn't. The app isn't hurting anyone's feelings by expressing an unpopular opinion--it's only displaying facts.
When you agree to cover up facts for an authoritarian regime, you become a collaborator to that regime.
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This. Apple is stuck; the government is saying the app is illegal so they can’t sell it. At what point does the government’s rules cross the point of no return. This is especially sensitive in a place like Hong Kong, where ostensibly there is local democratic rule and not directly controlled by the Chinese central government.
Re: A Distinction: Violence and Consistency (Score:2)
> When you agree to cover up facts for an authoritarian regime, you become a collaborator to that regime.
QFT - this comment really gets to the heart of the matter.
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Those who could get shot in the chest at point blank range with a live round. Those who could get shot in the face with a rubber bullet and lose an eye even when they were wearing protection and were clearly identified as press. Those people, that's who.
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Nice troll. GDIAF.
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Seriously, sometimes, some Americans seem like they have their heads buried deep where the sun doesn't shine, and can't even consider that things aren't how they see them - it's like they've been brainwashed or something.
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It has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-- Winston Churchill, 1947.
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Re:...or (Score:5, Insightful)
is democracy automatically the best system for every occasion?
Not at all. Totalitarian regimes are pretty awesome for the people in power.
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Communism does not, has not , and will not ever exist in large scale. China is not communist its dictatorship by committee.
PS grow up and learn about America. There are NO rights given you in the constitution. Try reading it sometime.