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Portables (Apple)

Apple May Ditch the Butterfly Keyboard (9to5mac.com) 138

Posted by msmash from the good-riddance dept.
AmiMoJo writes: Apple is apparently set to ditch the butterfly mechanism used in MacBooks since 2015, which has been the root of reliability issues and its low-travel design has also not been popular with many Mac users. A report published today says that Apple will roll out a new keyboard design based on scissor switches, offering durability and longer key travel, starting with the 2019 MacBook Air. The MacBook Pro is also getting the new scissor switch keyboard, but not until 2020. The new scissor switch keyboard is a whole new design than anything previously seen in a MacBook, purportedly featuring glass fiber to reinforce the keys.
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Apple May Ditch the Butterfly Keyboard More

Apple May Ditch the Butterfly Keyboard

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  • Fiber Reinforced Plastic is nothing new, neither is scissor keys. Welcome to the present day, Apple!

    • Re: glass fiber = FRP (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I'm eager to read the fanboys explaining that Apple invented scissors keys in 2019 :-)

      • Re: glass fiber = FRP (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anubis IV ( 1279820 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @03:56PM (#58873904)

        I'm eager to read the fanboys explaining that Apple invented scissors keys in 2019 :-)

        You'll likely be disappointed, given that most Apple fanboys still have scissor switches in their Apple laptops.

        Apple switched from scissor switches to the much-maligned butterfly switches in 2015. The summary seems to be suggesting that they are now going back to a new and improved scissor switch, so Apple fanboys may finally start upgrading their laptops again for the first time in several years after clinging desperately to their scissor switches all this time.

        So far as "inventing" anything goes, while Apple certainly didn't invent the scissor mechanism (millennia old?), nor were they anywhere close to the first to use it in keyboards (companies were using doing so in the late '80s and early '90s), they might have been the first to deploy them at scale in laptops. I can't find anything definitive, but I have an old PowerBook G4 from 2002 that has scissor switches, and it looks like scissor switches only started appearing in laptops around 2002 [xahlee.info], meaning that Apple may have been the first or one of the first to popularize their modern usage in laptops.

        • And just when Apple finally got their butterfly keys feeling acceptable.

          Oh well. I’ll just have to content myself with a reliable keyboard. ;-)

          Good news for me, too, as I’m close to sucking it up and buying a new MacBook of some sort. (Air, probably, since I can get a real keyboard and touchID that way. But godDAMN I wish they used standard-ass SSDs and RAM Even if they had to invent a fucking standard for socketed LPDDR5 or whatever the fuck they’re going to use.)

          You know what, fuck it.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by _merlin ( 160982 )

          You're not even correct on when Apple started using them in notebooks - the 2001 iBook has scissor mechanisms. They probably existed in other notebooks before that.

          • Aren’t I though? I cited a source that said “around 2002”, though I didn’t stake a claim on that particular year, other than to say that from my personal experience I know it to be at least that far back. If the 2001 iBook had them as well, that’d actually be further support for my conjecture that Apple might have been one of the first to popularize them in laptops.

            It’s not a hill I’ll die on, but I don’t see how anything you’ve said undermines the thing

        • I can vouch for IBM using them in laptops in the late 90s onward (600 series; I don't know if any older ones did, as I can't find any solid information). I also have a Compaq Presario CM2060 (PIII 800, built in 2000) that uses scissors.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          TFA mentions that the mechanism will be partially made of fibreglass. That's Apple's gift to fanboys, a little change that they can use you justify why Apple's scissor switches are so vastly superior to all other scissor switches.

          • I hope they understand that glass-filled plastics tend to be rather abrasive... that being said, if they managed to make all but the hinge contacts surfaces out of it, it could be an improvement. Most of my failed keyboard scissors have been due to bending of the thin legs that go from the central hinge out to the key or board hinge, and almost never from the hinge pegs themselves breaking off. More common still, the plastic clips/slots on the keys themselves are prone to breakage.

      • I'm eager to read the fanboys explaining that Apple invented scissors keys in 2019 :-)

        And by extension, scissors and keys.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I've got a couple of MacAlly keyboards I bought about 15 years ago that made a big deal about their use of scissor keys. They're OK for low-stroke keyboards. They're no IBM Model M, of course, but they're head-and-shoulders above the butterfly garbage that Apple has been trying to force on us for the last few years.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by _merlin ( 160982 )

        They're made by Sanwa Supply. I have a few Sanwa-branded ones with the same mechanisms. I quite like them, but they don't have N-key rollover and they don't like certain combinations of keys being pressed at the same time.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Megane ( 129182 )
          N-key rollover is not a function of the key mechanism, it's a matter having diodes or some other method in the key matrix to eliminate ghosting (usually at extra cost), and having a scanning method that supports full rollover. It's also a matter of the USB standard only supporting 6 keys + 8 modifier keys in the mode supported by BIOS during boot time, so you have to switch the keyboard mode after boot, then switch it back after a reboot.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by _merlin ( 160982 )

            I know that. But the fact remains that there are key combinations that are nice to be able to press for games (e.g. when trying to do a Party Up in Project Justice on a Dreamcast emulator) that work fine on an Apple keyboard but don't work on the Sanwa keyboard. It's very frustrating.

    • Jony Ive quits, Apple dumps his keyboard design 2 (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @03:43PM (#58873834) Homepage

      Im sure its just pure coincidence.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        I laugh when people *still* bought MacBooks with the poor and unreliable keyboard. How much would it take for some people to stop using MacBooks? A screen that falls off after a few months?
        Glad they are ditching the butterfly, _finally_. I may even consider getting a MacBook at some point. Although Linux does just about everything I need and the latest Windows 10 update makes the asinine forced reboots delayable even without the Pro verison.

    • I'd been using a loaner MBP at work, and just got swapped for an older 14" Thinkpad X1.

      What a revalation. The keys have a nice long throw and a bit of heft to them, the have the appropriate dishing so you can center your fingers without looking and mashing two keys at once, the action is quiet and ends with a nice positive feel.

      I can't believe anyone would EVER pay any kind of a premium for the absolute garbage that was that MBP keyboard. Is the brand really worth that much to you?

  • I have been in the market for a new MacBook Pro, since I am starting to feel some limitations of my MacBook Air. I have been holding out, mainly due to the keyboards in the new MacBook Pros. I spend a lot of time on my keyboard and the feel of the keyboard is important.

    • Upgrade to Linux, don't settle for some shoddy FreeBSD imitation of Linux.

    • Yeah, that's why I bought this refurb 2015 MacBook Pro - in 2018. I had one from work already, so I knew the processor would keep up. I'd also used a couple different newer MBPs for a couple weeks, and at the end hated the keyboard probably more than I'd hated it at the beginning.

      But even if they replace the butterfly keyboard, I'll be in no hurry to replace this laptop. For most of us, laptops (and their processors) are like cell phones - years ago they reached the point where they can do pretty much every

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by aitikin ( 909209 )
      I'm in the market for a new MacBook Pro too. My reasons are much simpler though, my dog jumped up and spilled a martini right into the keyboard of my current (Unibody Retina, back when it had all sorts of different ports)...I'm gonna see if I can hold out for the new ones next year as, if I'm going to buy a new one, I'm getting at least 32 GB of RAM.

    • A lot of the defenses of Tim Cook seem eerily similar to the defenses we heard last decade regarding Steve Ballmer - mainly centered around "they've never been bigger and they're making boatloads of money". While true, it ignores the fact that Apple seems to be coasting on its past successes and products which to some degree or another bear Steve Jobs' imprimatur.

  • Glue, glue, and more glue. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @02:40PM (#58873532)
    Will the keyboard still be glued to the top case, making it virtually impossible to replace? Will an easy-swell battery still be glued below the keyboard, destroying the laptop if it swells? Funny, I can buy a Thinkpad that's put together with screws, not glue, for $250 less than the cheapest Macbook. New keyboard or not, it's pretty fucking sad that Apple has gone down the rabbit hole of unrepairability. Maybe this will change with Jony Ive being gone, but I doubt it.

    • Hey, glue’s okay. They could switch to hot glue, designed to melt at temperatures well below their plastic parts.

      Then again, with Apple’s thermals lately...

      • It's easier to remove a screw than spend half an hour melting and scraping glue.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Megane ( 129182 )

          Having replaced Unibody keyboards multiple times, I almost agree with you. Summary: remove all the guts from the laptop, unscrew 70+ tiny-ass screws that the only way you can keep from losing them is with a magnet, install new keyboard, then put everything back. Total time, a mere 1-2 hours! If it was glued, the bad part would be trying to glue it back the right way.

          The flip-up keyboard is the only thing I miss from the 2000-2008 era of Pismo/Titanium/Aluminum laptops.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by euxneks ( 516538 )

      Funny, I can buy a Thinkpad that's put together with screws, not glue, for $250 less than the cheapest Macbook.

      I mean, nobody's making people buy these things - clearly people see value in them. I don't see why anyone would complain about a company making things like this - unless perhaps, you still wish you could have a mac?

    • Apple will fill the keyboard entirely with hot glue so the keys don't move. Form over function.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Unrepairablily is a feature. You had better pay for AppleCare or you will be hit with massive repair bills. One spec of dust can write off your several thousand Euro laptop.

      Oh, of course they eventually offer an extended warranty... Long after you already paid, or ditched the thing, or paid out for AppleCare. Good luck getting a refund on that.

  • Butterfly Keyboard Effect (Score:5, Funny)

    by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @02:53PM (#58873586)

    A change made in Cupertino, CA affects things in Suzhou China*.

    [ * Where the MacBook is actually made. ]

  • Stop selling low travel, membrane keyboards, they universally suck and provide a mushy, low quality typing experience. Notebooks should start including proper mechanical keyboards that have good tactile feedback and provide at least a reasonable typing experience.

    • Re:Use a proper mechanical keyboard (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jaklode ( 3930925 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @04:17PM (#58874014)
      Then the laptop would be twice as thick. Thinness is one of the most important qualities in a notebook - it's very important for carrying around in messenger bags or backpacks. ThinkPad keyboards are quite OK, I don't need a mechanical keyboard on the go, I need a portable computer.

      • Actually, the tech is there to do it without being too terribly thick.

        Cherry's got new switches [techcrunch.com]

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        The Macbook Pro is 180mm thick. I don't think a few extra mm to add a decent amount of travel to the keys is going to turn it into a brick.

        Might also fix the thermal throttling issues too.

        • The Macbook Pro is 180mm thick. I don't think a few extra mm to add a decent amount of travel to the keys is going to turn it into a brick.

          Might also fix the thermal throttling issues too.

          But then it might look a little bit less pretty and they can't be having that. Form over function etc etc.

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            To be fair it would be kinda ugly if it was 180mm thick. That decimal point slid a little too far.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Megane ( 129182 )

          The Macbook Pro is 180mm thick.

          It's seven inches thick? I think you might have confused the Macbook Pro with the Mac Mini. And thickness with width.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      Stop selling low travel, membrane keyboards, they universally suck and provide a mushy, low quality typing experience. Notebooks should start including proper mechanical keyboards that have good tactile feedback and provide at least a reasonable typing experience.

      Not likely to happen. Razor did it, and produced a laptop as thick as a brick - mechanical keyboards pretty much add an inch to thickness, and given we've got laptops less than half that in thickness from everyone.

      Heck, low-travel laptop keyboards

    • LOL. Consumers don't care about mechanical keyboards. Thinkpads, HPs, etc are all membrane. Let it go.

  • Please don't tell Apple, but there has been cheaper and less tactile keyboards in computer history: https://images.app.goo.gl/jFjW... [app.goo.gl]

  • WOW (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Archfeld ( 6757 ) <treboreel@live.com> on Thursday July 04, 2019 @03:25PM (#58873766) Journal

    Apple is so courageous. It's not like most of their users complained about the shoddy crap when they first came out or anything.

  • Apple should roll new keyboard tech to the desktop keyboards first to see if it actually works reliably. At least it is easily replaced then.

  • The new scissor switch keyboard is a whole new design than anything previously seen in a MacBook, purportedly featuring glass fiber to reinforce the keys.

    General Dreedle, take this sentence out and shoot it.

  • It's jut haters (Score:5, Funny)

    by ChatHuant ( 801522 ) on Thursday July 04, 2019 @04:14PM (#58873994)

    The keybard on my Macook woks perfecly.

    • Lucky you, mine doesn't, and it's the 'up' key which is playing up at the moment. Oh, and i've taken it once to have it looked at...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tonywong ( 96839 )
        If you read the GP's post carefully you'll see what he was really saying.
        • Sadly, most will just attribute the quality of that post to modern acceptable typing such as on a touch screen, or, LOL, a macbook. So much for evolution.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Megane ( 129182 )

        I've had that problem with my MacBook Pro keyboard before too. Only it was a 2012 model, and a new keyboard was 15 bucks and 2 hours of work. Oh wait, that was after about 5 years when the matrix failed and a whole row was broken. The up arrow key I just popped the cap off of, cleaned around it, and if the nylon scissor broke, I could replace that too. Now you've got a keyboard that is sure to start dying just as soon as your Applecare expires.

        Apple: Planned Obsolescence different!

  • My 2011 MBP had a perfect keyboard, and it was only a little thicker than the butterfly. The entire unit was probably 0.3" thicker and probably half a pound heavier. But the used experience was superior. It had ports, and an escape key. I wish they kept that form factor, and just updated the components. I would gladly buy one.

    Yes, they can go smaller, but they paid too high a price in usability and fragility.

  • Great!! Now bring back: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 04, 2019 @05:44PM (#58874408)

    - magsafe
    - headphone jacks
    - replaceable and upgradeable components
    - multiple ports
    - optical drives
    - 17" or larger laptops
    - thickness

    . . . and we'll just about have a good Apple product again!

  • Now, that's what I call Bravery!

  • ESC key (Score:2)

    by ugen ( 93902 )

    I sure hope they bring back the physical ESC key. It's mandatory to use vim (my dev. env). Lack of it is a complete nonstarter - I can't switch to the current MBPro. I do like my 2015 version though.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by hawk ( 1151 )

      Once you've remapped caps lock as control, as any right-thinking person does, it leaves the control key in the lower corner available to map as escape.

      It took surprisingly little time to get used to this.

      hawk

  • Apple's new motto: "It Just Breaks"

  • Just wondering at the timing of this rumour.

    Apple's been pretty adamant that their butterfly keyboard is just fine. Ive leaves and then this rumour.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Personally i am ok with this. For me the keyboard is great when it works. It has failed twice so far but i am not complaining Apple replaces it for free including a top case and a battery. I enjoy new battery for free every year.

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