How Apple's Billion Dollar Sapphire Bet Will Pay Off 195
alphadogg writes: "Apple is making a billion dollar bet on sapphire as a strategic material for mobile devices such as the iPhone, iPad and perhaps an iWatch. Exactly what the company plans to do with the scratch-resistant crystal – and when – is still the subject of debate. Apple is creating its own supply chain devoted to producing and finishing synthetic sapphire crystal in unprecedented quantities. The new Mesa, Arizona plant, in a partnership with sapphire furnace maker GT Advanced Technologies, will make Apple one of the world's largest sapphire producers when it reaches full capacity, probably in late 2014. By doing so, Apple is assured of a very large amount of sapphire and insulates itself from the ups and downs of sapphire material pricing in the global market."
Well. (Score:2)
The only thing it's hurting is the other people looking for sapphire display covers like was mentioned a couple months back.
Personally, I'm on the Gorilla Glass [corninggorillaglass.com] bandwagon.
It's:
Stronger
Stronger
Cheaper & faster to produce
apple can pretty much do what it wants and they have plenty of money so it's not like it's a gamble at this point. $1bn is not going to dent their bank.
I own a couple of their devic
Re:Well. (Score:5, Interesting)
The only thing it's hurting is the other people looking for sapphire display covers like was mentioned a couple months back.
Personally, I'm on the Gorilla Glass [corninggorillaglass.com] bandwagon. It's: Stronger Stronger Cheaper & faster to produce
apple can pretty much do what it wants and they have plenty of money so it's not like it's a gamble at this point. $1bn is not going to dent their bank.
I own a couple of their devices, but I've personally relegated them down to be things I don't even carry around, and the interface always makes me feel like I'm using one of those kid's toy computers that has like 6 buttons with pictures on them (the cow says Mooooo).
I to am on the Gorilla Glass bandwagon as well, and a big big fan of Corning. But Gorilla Glass is under patent. Synthetic Sapphire has been around since 1902, and it was cheap back then. Sapphire is hard... 9 on the Mohs scale, and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond. I find it difficult to believe... so...do you have any references that says Gorilla Glass is cheaper and harder than Sapphire?
Re:Well. (Score:5, Interesting)
I find it difficult to believe... so...do you have any references that says Gorilla Glass is cheaper and harder than Sapphire?
Even Corning's own website doesn't say outright that Gorilla Glass is stronger. Only that:
Sapphire's performance as a cover for high-end watches probably leads to the current speculation. But those covers are much smaller than a mobile phone and are two to three times thicker than Gorilla Glass. In one of our commonly accepted strength tests, sapphire breaks more easily than Gorilla Glass after the same simulated use. Additionally, sapphire’s cost and environmental hit are huge issues.
Notice how they totally weasel around and, and only in "one of our commonly accepted strength tests" did Gorilla Glass outperform sapphire? So do they only have one test, or did sapphire outperform Gorilla Glass in all the others?
The real question is: Which is more likely to break in real life? That probably depends on how you test it. The best test would be to give a bunch of iPhones to a statistically significant set of teenagers and see how many screens of each are still intact after a while.
Also, there is some speculation on several different sites that Apple may not intend to use sapphire for the screen, but instead for the camera lens. They currently use it on the camera lens and the home button. I wonder if it's something they could use in other things that don't currently use Gorilla Glass, like macbook screens?
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Also, there is some speculation on several different sites that Apple may not intend to use sapphire for the screen, but instead for the camera lens. They currently use it on the camera lens and the home button.
That (external) speculation sounds kind if silly... considering there are lots of other teeny tiny parts in iOS devices that the cost of which probably is more volitile and fluctuates more than the price of synthetic sapphire. So for a billion dollars, it seems like an investment that would take decades to pay for itself.
I wonder if it's something they could use in other things that don't currently use Gorilla Glass, like macbook screens?
That is interesting, and would absolutely justify a billion dollar investment if that is their intention, because they would need a metric shitton of sapphire to pull that off. My guess i
Re:Well. (Score:5, Funny)
a metric shitton of sapphire
Exactly. Not one of those ill-defined imperial long shit tons and short shit tons.
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Re:Well. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sapphire is almost certainly more scratch resistant, because it's harder. Gorilla glass may well be less likely to break, since it's not as hard. Scratch and break resistance are usually difficult to get together. You're right, the real question is, in the real world, which is the more important property? Are scratches or breaks more common? Can other design features mitigate scratches or breaks more effectively?
I would think some rubber buffer around the glass could be used to add a lot of break resistance. Other than putting a film over the screen, scratches are pretty hard to prevent without making the surface itself more resistant.
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I would think some rubber buffer around the glass could be used to add a lot of break resistance.
rubber doesn't really go with apple's metal and glass stylistic sensibilities.
Are scratches or breaks more common?
I've seen tons of broken screens even as recently as last week. I can't honestly say I've seen any scratched ones in the last few yers.
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I would think some rubber buffer around the glass could be used to add a lot of break resistance.
rubber doesn't really go with apple's metal and glass stylistic sensibilities.
You just don't get the same sensation with that rubber buffer around your...oh wait, sorry, wrong forum.
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It requires a shload of heat, which takes energy. The environmental claim is regarding the production of this energy, which Apple has no problem building large solar arrays to get around that [funkyspacemonkey.com].
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this factory is in mesa AZ (east phoenix metro) , i'd guess the electricity would come from nuclear at the very least (palo verde) -- but supposedly that region of the country is also a prime location for solar (300+ days of sunshine per yer and cheap shitty land)
Re:Well. (Score:5, Informative)
Sapphire is hard... 9 on the Mohs scale, and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond.
Lots of things are harder then Sapphire, particularly carbides and borides. Examples include silicon carbide, titanium carbide, boron (the hardest element) boron carbide, and boron nitride.
I find it difficult to believe... so...do you have any references that says Gorilla Glass is cheaper and harder than Sapphire?
No one ever said it was harder, they said it was stronger.
Re:Well. (Score:5, Informative)
silicon carbide, titanium carbide, boron (the hardest element) boron carbide, and boron nitride.
All of which would make a really crappy screen cover.
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Silicon carbide at least has potential; there's a synthetic polymorph of it called Moissanite [wikipedia.org] that's transparent, harder (9.5 vs. 9) and stronger than sapphire/corundum. I imagine it costs a shedload more to make than sapphire glass however.
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However their lack of transparency would certainly improve security.
Re:Well. (Score:5, Interesting)
Gorilla glass cracks anyway. First time I drop a phone, there goes the glass. But it also scratches. It's far softer than sand, so in arid areas the grit that gets everywhere can scratch your phone in your pocket. Sapphire at least has that going for it - there's little in everyday life that can scratch it.
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i have dropped my droid4 like 7-8 times now from waist height, no scratches, no cracks.
just this terrible pain in all the diods down his left side...
Re:Well. (Score:4, Informative)
I to am on the Gorilla Glass bandwagon as well, and a big big fan of Corning. But Gorilla Glass is under patent. Synthetic Sapphire has been around since 1902, and it was cheap back then. Sapphire is hard... 9 on the Mohs scale, and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond. I find it difficult to believe... so...do you have any references that says Gorilla Glass is cheaper and harder than Sapphire?
I'm not the parent poster, but here's a ref [parts-people.com] claiming that Gorilla Glass is indeed both cheaper and far weaker than sapphire.
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Why do expensive watches have sapphire crystals? Well, sapphire has advantages, but mostly because those watches are jewelry that happen to tell time.
Why will iPhones have sapphire screens? Because they are jewelry that happen to make phone calls. If you see Apple products as fashion accessories first, then sapphire screens are a brilliant idea.
Re:Well. (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? You got modded up for that?
Expensive watches have sapphire faces because sapphire is one of the hardest materials that can be made into a thin, transparent sheet for a reasonable price. That makes it very scratch resistant. It's not bling, it's very practical.
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I have a $150 watch that has a sapphire crystal and titanium case. The watch case is significantly scratched and the crystal is not scratched at all. Definitely not bling and definitely practical. And not expensive (the replacement cost of the crystal is $50).
Not just jewelry (Score:3, Informative)
One of the largest uses for artificial sapphire is supermarket barcode scanners. No one's putting it there because they feel a need to bling-out the supermarket. It's there because any surface that has stuff dragged across it all day, every day either needs to be incredible scratch-resistant or replaced way too often.
Re:Well. (Score:5, Interesting)
Sapphire is indeed harder than Gorilla Glass, whether you are talking about scratch hardness (the Mohs scale) or indentation hardness (the Vickers scale). There isn't an exact value for the scratch hardness of Gorilla Glass but it seems that people are easily able to scratch it with sandpaper, granite, or whatever, whereas you really cannot scratch sapphire with anything less than corundum/diamond.
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You realize sandpaper grit *is* corundum, right?
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From TFA, Gorilla Glass reportedly costs about $10 per display when Apple first started using it (on the original iPhone), with prices eventually dropping to about $3 today. Sapphire is expected to cost about $20 after all is said and done. It'll come down, certainly, but it's definitely not cheaper.
As for being tougher, my understanding is that it's far more scratch resistant than gorilla glass, but not necessarily as shatter resistant.
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As for being tougher, my understanding is that it's far more scratch resistant than gorilla glass, but not necessarily as shatter resistant.
fyi, scratch resistence is also a measure of shatter resistence, so if a substance is more scratch resistant than another, it is also more shatter resistant, at least that's what I just read in an articled about sapphire linked from somewhere else in this thread.
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I'm certainly no materials expert but anecdotal evidence does not support your hypothesis.
Most plastic is less scratch resistant than most glass. Most glass is less shatter resistant than most plastics.
Therefore I conclude that: scratch resistance != measure of shatter resistence.
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Looks like scratch resistence != shatter resistence.
Secondly, it means overcoming a surprising problem: despite its hardness, synthetic sapphire can be prone to fracturing, at almost any point in this finishing process, due to impurities or to the presence of unresolved strains in the crystalline structure.
“That’s something that’s being very carefully measured and tested,” says Stone-Sunderberg. “Fracturing is probably of the highest concern. If a product is released with a more expensive touch screen [cover] and consumers experience fracturing, they’re going to be highly disappointed. It would be devastating to the sapphire industry.”
Also, the tensile strength of regular glass (which varies considerably however) can match that of synthetic sapphire. Sapphire has very good compression stength though.
This is the reason for steel reinforced concrete. You can't easily compress concrete but you can pull it apart pretty easily. If you add steel with its good tensile strength, you get a strong material that excels in both areas.
Apple will need to do something with the sapphire or it will shat
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This is just speculation, but the source might have been referring to fracture mechanics. Fracture begins more easily when there is a surface imperfection. That's why you can cut glass with precision by scoring the surface and tapping it in such a way as to put the scored face under tension. And if you have a pit or scratch on the surface of either glass or sapphire, that will become a stress concentration when you put it under strain, and that is where the fracture will begin.
That's also incidentally why c
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Nope. Sorry. Read better sources. Scratch resistance is governed by surface hardness. Shatter resistance is governed by toughness. Hardness and toughness are the classic opposed desirables in materials science. Sure, you can play games in certain materials with surface hardness, so the surface is very hard and the underl
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Even the slightest impurity can cause it to fail. That certainly does not sound shatter resistance
The slightest impurity? On an Apple device?
Not on your life.
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I doubt it.
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So.. vapor deposit a layer of sapphire on top of the gorilla glass and call it a day....
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Corning owns Gorilla Glass, though, so that wouldn't help Apple increase their vertical integration. TFA does mention that there is work in that direction going on, though.
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and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond.
I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but there are substances haeder than corundum yet softer than diamond. SiC and BN come to mind
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Sapphire is hard... 9 on the Mohs scale, and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond. I find it difficult to believe... so...do you have any references that says Gorilla Glass is cheaper and harder than Sapphire?
he said it was stronger not harder, very different things. things that are harder on the Mohs scale are more likely to shatter than things lower on the scale, hardness is not the only factor that determines the durability of a material .
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"Sapphire is hard... 9 on the Mohs scale, and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond"
Not even close. Boron is harder. Tungsten is harder with a Vicker's maximum of 2400, Sapphire 2300. Sapphires won't scratch my pure tungsten ring.
"and the only substance harder is natural and synthetic diamond. I find it difficult to believe..."
Well, given your lacking education on material hardness, not a surprise you can't believe.
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I don't know anyone who didn't have their iPhone wrapped in a case, just for that reason. In comparison, my RAZR Maxx has never needed a case because the backing is rubberized composite and there is a durable bevel a
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Should have been
Stronger
Lighter
Guess I'm tired.
Should have been
Stronger
Harder
Faster
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Should have been :
Harder,
Better,
Faster,
Sronger
tutututut...
Re:Well. (Score:5, Funny)
Make it harder sells it better
Work 'em faster Apple's stronger
More than ever iPhone after
iPod works the Android over
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Remember slashdot is a US based website, that should be spelled "tsktsktsktsk"
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Re:Well. (Score:5, Informative)
Bullshit - don't believe marketing materials (Score:5, Informative)
Sapphire is *not* the second hardest material known. Yes, it's written in the linked article, but it is also definitely wrong. It is hard, and it is harder than glass. That is all there is. Besides diamond. many other materials, such as some forms of boronnitride, rhenium and osmium borides, and a collection of carbon/boron/nitrogen mixed compounds are all far harder than sapphire.
Re:Bullshit - don't believe marketing materials (Score:5, Interesting)
Sapphire is *not* the second hardest material known. Yes, it's written in the linked article, but it is also definitely wrong.
Maybe they mean second hardest transparent material - which is kind of important for displays.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness
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Close but not quite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org]
In case you only complain because you can't find sapphire on that list - corundum in all colors but red is known as sapphire, red is ruby.
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I can't believe the "dimmer" argument has an real validity given that sapphire is widely used for camera lenses, where any significant dimming would be a problem.
But it isn't (Score:2)
saw Sapphire on YouTube with Amos 'n Andy (Score:2)
Should have gone with ruby.... (Score:3)
...transparent aluminum! Clearly, Apple hates Star Trek.
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Re:Should have gone with ruby.... (Score:5, Funny)
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Scotty used an Apple Macintosh to enter the formula.
What struck me watching it was that
(a) My watch already had a transparent alumina crystal - sapphire.
(b) No real Scotsman would say aluminum, but aluminium.
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(b) No true Scotsman would say aluminum, but aluminium.
FTFY.
I guess you forgot where you were.
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Errm, sapphire *IS* transparent aluminum. It's aluminum oxide (Al2O3).
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Aluminum oxide is not aluminum. Water is not hydrogen. You wouldn't call water "wet hydrogen".
Anyone else notice (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Anyone else notice (Score:5, Insightful)
You can go from jack squat to anything with a billion dollars.
Especially when the rest of the industry isn't all that large.
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I guess my point is, 50 years ago you couldn't. The logistics alone would be too much, let alone setting up the manufacturing...
Of course you could. Just a matter of pouring money into it.
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Yeah, 'cause science and tech hasn't advanced in 50 years.
It's a design problem, not materials. (Score:4, Interesting)
How about they just design a phone that doesn't shatter when you drop it? Having the glass right to the edges might look nice but it's completely unpractical from a robustness point of view. Apple are just fashion victims.
My motorola Defy+ has a thin plastic bezel that doesnt degrade its appearance yet absorbs those nasty corner shocks. Simple design to solve a common problem and doesnt require building an expensive saphire factory.
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But it's ... it's not ... cool.
Apparently what is cool is to buy a gaudy plastic band to wrap around the edge to make up for this design defect, then bedazzle the shit out of it.
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Hear, hear!
It seems like most of the IPhones I see have broken screens, but other phones only rarely. It's just a shitty design. Excuse me, I now have to go underground before the Apple fanboys catch up with me.
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That's because the other phones don't continue to function after their screens get broken. :P
I've actually broken a couple of iPhone screens. They seem to survive the corner and edge drops just fine, but the face down drops onto concrete or an uneven stone floor breaks the screen. Still works fine though, which is impressive.
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I was kidding. But I'm happy your phone still worked.
Re:It's a design problem, not materials. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems like most of the IPhones I see have broken screens, but other phones only rarely.
I'll counter your anecdote with one of my own. I've seen dozens of iPhones in the hands of friends and co-workers. Only one of them ever had broken glass (the back panel) and that was in the hands of one of the biggest drunks I've ever known.
You simply only notice what you want to notice.
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It seems like most of the IPhones I see have broken screens, but other phones only rarely. It's just a shitty design. Excuse me, I now have to go underground before the Apple fanboys catch up with me.
So here is the meme that iPhones often have broken screens. There is the other meme that people throw away their iPhones for the slightest reason and buy a new one. Clearly, both memes are contradicting each other. If people keep iPhones with broken screens, then clearly these iPhones haven't been thrown away.
What actually seems to happen is that iPhone screens sometimes break, just like other screens, but you'll always find someone who is happy taking an iPhone with a broken screen. Which indicates to m
Re:It's a design problem, not materials. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, they could, I dunno, make a harder kind of glass that doesn't shatter. Sounds familiar.
The point is that the Motorola design might be a cheaper solution, bit the phone simply looks shittier. Some people, presumably yourself, don't care about that, but plenty of others do. It's the sort of thing that makes a Mercedes a Mercedes, and a Lexus a not-quite-right knock off of the same thing.
Re:It's a design problem, not materials. (Score:4, Informative)
Anyhow, I think Samsung and LG are on the right track here. The electronics inside a phone can survive several hundred Gs (you can literally shoot them out of a cannon with little ill effect). The only fragile part is the glass screen. So both companies are working hard to develop flexible screens. The only remaining issue would then be scratching the screen; but most people seem content to put a cheap plastic protector on their screen to ward off scratches.
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A flexible screen would let you get away from gluing the touch sensor and panel together, which would let you replace the touch sensor (which is cheap) whenever it got damaged.
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My NexusS has a plastic bezel and it shattered from a 2-ft drop onto a faux-wood (read: not that hard) surface.
Because our anti-anecdotes would annihilate each other in a flash of light, you're going to have to come up with a better line of reasoning.
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Supposedly the NexusS doesnt use gorilla glass, so it is much weaker anyway.
Silicon on Sapphire (Score:2)
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oops (Score:2)
The big secret? (Score:2)
They're making phonograph needles...
It's about time (Score:5, Interesting)
It's surprising that Apple didn't do this a long time ago. Checkout scanners have had sapphire-coated glass for a decade or more. I pointed this out a few years ago, and the Apple fanboys immediately replied that Gorilla Glass was good enough and sapphire was unnecessary.
It's embarassing how fragile Apple's mobile products are. But this, at least, will stop screens from being scratched by coins and keys. You can drag canned goods across a sapphire coated supermarket checkout scanner glass for a decade without much effect. Home Depot self-checkout scanners have sapphire coated glass, and they get everything in the tool department dragged across them.
Gorilla Glass is pretty strong (Score:3)
It's surprising that Apple didn't do this a long time ago.
It's not if you read the article and know more about the costs Sapphire have traditionally added.
It's embarassing how fragile Apple's mobile products are.
You mean, the ones that use the same Gorilla Glass everyone else is using?
Sapphire does sound nice, but you are selling Gorilla Glass way short. It can take a lot of pounding, and I haven't had keys (or anything else) be able to scratch the display in years. I recall a model of the iPhone a few ye
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Now thinking about it, I don't recall seeing an iphone (or gorilla glass equipped phone) with screen scratches. Yes, there most probably are there, but they are not visible in day to day operation which I think is all that matters.
Of course, what everyone sees is a lot of phones with cracked glass.
And as we all know, sapphire crystal glass on watches is more fragile than on the ones with mineral glass. Sapphire is more clear so the dials look nicer and it is less scratched though. But I haven't seen a watch
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It's surprising that Apple didn't do this a long time ago. Checkout scanners have had sapphire-coated glass for a decade or more. I pointed this out a few years ago, and the Apple fanboys immediately replied that Gorilla Glass was good enough and sapphire was unnecessary.
Here's another example how Apple is often accused of two exactly diametrical faults. You accuse them of using cheap Gorilla Glass which isn't good enough according to you and say they should have switched to Sapphire glass ages ago, while the whole thread started with others saying how stupid it is of Apple to use Sapphire glass, when Gorilla glass is much better.
Guys, can you make up your minds, please?
iWatch Sapphire clearly (Score:2)
iWatch anyone?
Substrates (Score:5, Interesting)
Sapphire is not just for external materials, it is also a commonly used substrate for growth of various semiconductors for a range of devices (main substrate for GaN (blue LEDs), silicon on sapphire (SOS) tech). There are many reasons to use it as a substrate (transparent, radiation resistant, excellent thermal conductivity but low electrical conductivity) though some disadvantages which have largely been accounted for (poor lattice match to Si, GaN).
We used to get GaN grown on piddly little 2" sapphire wafers, which were themselves to start with hideously expensive. Growing on larger sapphire wafers is very interesting (think of how most production fabs are geared for 12" Si wafers).
Before you know it you may also find internal components made from material grown on sapphire made by Apple in Apple products.
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They will be in a position to strong arm if they get manufacturing cranking, however I don't think the Apple of today would use something like this simply as extreme leverage against a supplier (though some pressure will of course be inevitable).
If they're smart (and don't for a second think they are not) then they really will move forward with this as another development in the American jobs and fabs and labs that they've started with the Made in USA Mac Pro (I'm not even American but I support smart manuf
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Thanks for the info, it has been a while since I talked to anyone who knew anything about commercial growth.
If 8" wafers have those issues then do you think it is then feasible to expect an iPhone screen out of sapphire any time soon?
Or will iPhone screens be thicker and thus can absorb more issues seen in thinner wafers, or do screen-grade sheets simply have a higher tolerance for fault densities and not need to be substrate grade?
The glass on top is not the selling point... (Score:2)
Next iPhone testimonials will be... (Score:2)
Isn't this obvious? (Score:2)
Apple is caught between their high-margin strategy and falling market share. The 5s/5c was a first try to do something but those were too similar to each other. Making the 5c cheaper would have eaten into the margins too much and making it crappier would have made it too crappy. So they have to make the "premium" version more premium and the budget version more different so it isn't just a cheaper iPhone.
I guess the 6s will have a sapphire screen, a 4.7" display with minimal bezels, an aluminum/ceramic cas
Transparent aluminum (Score:2)
I wish they'd start calling it transparent aluminum. Then we could all be living in a world with technology from the future.
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Yes sapphire has been used in ICs however for very specific ones. If you think Apple is going deeper in electronics manufacturing then you'd have to believe Apple is manufacturing for other companies and not merely for themselves. This flies in the face of what Apple does; they don't manufacture for others. They'll spend billions to make things for themselves. Case in point, Apple spent $750M to buy PA Semi and Intrinsity. These companies designed and licensed chip technology for others before Apple bou