Zynga Accused of Cloning Hit Indie iPhone Game Tiny Tower 245
FrankPoole writes "Indie iPhone game developer Nimblebit is accusing social games giant Zynga of ripping off its popular mobile title Tiny Tower. Nimblebit's Ian Marsh got word out about the similarities between Dream Heights and Tiny Tower with an image that's still making the Twitter rounds. The image is made up of screenshots showing how Dream Heights' interface and gameplay mechanics appear strikingly similar to Tiny Tower's."
marketing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nimblebit just got a tonne of marketing over this - who cares about the ripoff? marketing 101 => success!
Re:marketing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Thompson and Ritchie (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah but it is kinda sad a guy can bust his ass making something unique only to have some scumbum company like Zynga bold face copy the thing.
Likewise it's kinda sad that Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie can bust their asses making something unique only to have some scumbum company like FSF bold face copy the thing. Or are you trying to say cloning the functionality of a computer program is OK as long as the publisher of the clone is one of Slashdot's darling companies?
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Re:Thompson and Ritchie (Score:5, Informative)
I can't stand it any more! Three posts in a row! I must say something!
It's "bald faced", not "bold faced"!
OK, I feel a little better.
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Linux was an x86 version of MINIX not unix
And what is MINIX other than a clone of UNIX?
they used some of the POSIX conventions
Why aren't the POSIX conventions copyrightable? Because they're a method of operation.
or MSFT shutting down Lindows
For one thing, that's trademark. For another, you appear to have got that one backward: Microsoft ended up settling out of court and paying Lindows Inc. for the right to the "Lindows" trademark because Microsoft risked a ruling that "windows" was too generic.
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It's a shame, yet what's the alternative? Software patents or something similar that'd cover look and feel, or even game concerts. To go down that route would be like allowing authors to have a monopoly on the murder mystery in which the the ostensibly bumbling detective unmasks the criminal through a gradual process incessant badgering and questioning. Sure, if code or other copyrightable assets are being swiped, then yes, get the lawyers in. Other than that I see more problems created than would be solved
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long story short, zynga is a parasite, its a bad company that does shady business practices and we can only hope it will be gone in the not so distant future
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:5, Informative)
Let's see... when I was a kid in the days of Apple ][, these neighbors of ours (Stoltzfus family) came up with a graphical programming language.
They showed it to Apple, hoping that Apple would buy. Apple strongly considered it, and then returned it, saying that they weren't interested.
A year later, they came out with Apple Logo, which was immensely popular.
Logo was created in the 60s [wikipedia.org], turtles and all. It was popular on other systems as well in the early 80s, so it doesn't really seem to me that they did anything wrong here?
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:5, Funny)
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He also stole a box of raisins.
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It's a well documented fact that while Steve Jobs was at Parc stealing the GUI for the Mac, he also stole an office chair, a box of copy paper and a red Swingline stapler.
Not to mentioned that he copied a XEROX. Or XEROXed a copier.
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Bull! We all knwo he paid hard stock for that chair, the box of copy paper was taken out of the garbage, the red stapler never existed and the GUI was traded for a used pack of chewing gum!
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And a handicapped parking space!
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually Apple did steal a lot of their ideas for the Mac from the Xerox Parc
"No, Steve, I think its more like we both have a rich neighbor named Xerox, and you broke in to steal the TV set, and you found out I'd been there first, and you said. "Hey that's no fair! I wanted to steal the TV set! - Bill Gates' response after Steve Jobs accused Microsoft of borrowing the GUI (Graphical User Interface) from Apple for Windows 1.0* "
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa043099.htm [about.com]
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, except for the fact that they didn't steal anything, you're right. Xerox gave it away. Willfully.
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Hell, Apple paid for it with by allowing Xerox to buy a million buck of pre-IPO stock. The "Stolen" story is for morons.
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Buyer's remorse.
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The claim that the south fought the civil war over slavery is not made because President Lincoln viewed the war that way. It was because in almost every southern secession speech "preserving the institution of slavery" was given as a main reason for secession.
People only claim that Steve Jobs stole technology because he said so himself [youtube.com]
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I'd like to see that complete interview. There's another clip from the same interview where he talks about Xerox Parc. There's also a clip from the interview where he has a go at Microsoft for having no taste, and saying that Apple got the idea for proper typography on the Mac from looking at beautiful books.
I have a feeling this clip refers to the latter rather than the former. But without the whole interview it's impossible to tell.
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That's a great source!
Do you ask the CEO of Ford whether that Toyota car you are thinking about getting is any good?
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Do you ask the CEO of Ford whether that Toyota car you are thinking about getting is any good?
Actually, I would. I would probably already know the answer, and the honesty in the answer from the guy from Ford might make me consider his products as an alternative.
Sadly, I have never gotten a straight answer like that from the actual salespeople who work for Ford... when I was buying a new car last February, I was treated like a piece of meat by the Ford folks. I had really one requirement in my car: full time all-wheel drive. A manual transmission was wanted, but wasn't a deal-breaker. I live in a nor
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http://www.spokanister.net/vehicles_RAV4_VSC_TC.htm [spokanister.net]
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How odd. In my 2011 Subaru Impreza, it literally is a button. It's down and to the left of the steering wheel, near where the hood release is (but several inches from it, and a completely different action to activate it). You press the button, an idiot light lights up on the console indicating that TC is disabled, and it remains disabled until either you press the button again, or you turn the car off.
Your instructions are for a 2007 Rav4. Do you know if the later models have that same limitation? That's an
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:5, Insightful)
If, by "steal," you mean "bought and paid for with pre-IPO stock shares [vectronicsappleworld.com]," you're right.
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I think that people use the word "stole" because of the way that Apple fanboys pretend that Apple invented everything great about computing, when in fact they've mostly taken everything from someone else (nothing wrong with that) and made it crappy and hard to use. That they've managed to sell that crap to millions of idiots with poor aesthetic sensibilities is irrelevant.
Re:Happens all the time. (Score:4, Insightful)
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If, by "steal," you mean "bought and paid for... "
Well, that's how Microsoft "steals" their ideas, according to the Slashdot Group-Think... Microsoft stole this, Microsoft stole that... Actually they *buy* a lot of their ideas, but that doesn't stop the accusations of theft here...
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Nimblebit just got a tonne of marketing over this - who cares about the ripoff? marketing 101 => success!
Yes, but Zynga just gave it to them. People listen because it is a good story (David vs Goliath). Since the games are practically the same, users have a choice. And most are likely to go with the one by the people who (understandably) feel cheated. In essence, Zynga brought this upon themselves. All they could have hoped for would have been Nimblebit A) saying nothing or B) being complete dicks about it.
I am not saying Zynga is going to be losing any sleep over this, but they did hand over free marketi
Re:marketing?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Can we pair stories and see what happens?
X stories down we just had "Your photo infringes on his photo because it contained similar design elements". Now we have "Zynga accused of infringing on Nimblebit's version because it contains similar design bits"? Yet our reactions are *different*?
Why aren't that first photographer happy that the second one "handed over free marketing"?
I think we just stumbled on a new flaw in copyright besides the other famous ones: That there are *different classes* of works, but only one copyight law! So we have the same law handling Red Buses In Photos and Nimblebit Games and Twilight Movies. So the judges are handing down rulings that almost make sense for one class of works, and lead to frightening results in the other classes, with lawyers eating it all for dinner.
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One is about the government passing judgement on the issue. One is just about a dick company continuing to be a dick.
Methods of operation (Score:3)
Re:marketing.. (Score:5, Informative)
I am not saying Zynga is going to be losing any sleep over this
oh i very well doubt Zynga will lose any sleep over this...
ex staffer says [gameinformer.com] "zynga's motto is 'do evil'". also "the source said that staffers were, and are still, instructed to blatantly steal the idea of competitors. He recalls a time when founder Mark Pincus spoke on the subject, allegedly saying “I don’t f**king want innovation. You’re not smarter than your competitor. Just copy what they do and do it until you get their numbers.” "
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heck here is an old slashdot article about it also
http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/09/13/1752230/copying-trumps-creating-for-farmville-creator-zynga [slashdot.org]
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right. while zynga would have no reason to rip off, since there is no money in that.
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After all it's not like Zynga hasn't been caught ripping off games before.
Oh wait.
Mafia Wars vs Mob Wars?
Cafe World vs Restaurant City?
Farmville and Farm Town?
Oh and don't forget there's an "expansion for Frontierville" coming soon that's blatantly ripping off Oregon Trail, but they changed the name to "Pioneer Trail"...
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What's funny is how they can't even invest effort in coming up with a new name. Zynga clearly crosses the line from inspiration to blatant copying.
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Thing is, Tiny Tower looks like it was inspired by Zynga games in the first place. The look of it, the gameplay, the business model. It looks like Farmville goes high-rise.
So the copying here isn't just one way. And It wasn't initiated by Zynga.
Not that I want to defend Zynga. From previous stories they come across as scumbags. But an indie copying from Zynga isn't exactly on the moral high ground either.
Game rules do not underlie copyright (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html [copyright.gov]
Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps not, but then again nobody is suing them either. This is more about moral rules than the law.
Zynga has no morals.
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Businesses have no morals.
ftfy
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GNU/Cloning (Score:5, Interesting)
This is more about moral rules than the law.
So should Linus Torvalds and the GNU project "morally" not have cloned UNIX when making GNU/Linux?
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No, they should have, because they did morally copy it and then gave it away for all of us to share and benefit. This is not what Zynga is doing. Zynga does not care about the community and society, they only care about their own coffers.
And MINIX in turn is a clone of... (Score:2)
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This is more about moral rules than the law.
Whose morals? My morals happen to include "it's wrong to infringe copyright by illegally downloading music/software". I'm clearly outnumbered here on Slashdot by people who, even if they agree it's technically wrong, nevertheless believe it's morally justified because of the evilness of the MPAA/RIAA.
I don't bring this up to get into an argument about copyright and piracy, but to point out that adhering to "moral rules" first requires you define whose moral rules you are using as your measure.
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I highly doubt it. A large majority, if not all, games that Zynga has are copies/clones/remixes of existing games. Zynga just has a better marketing department and a bigger advertising budget.
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Based on your prior posts it sounds like you would prefer that society shares wealth, so if that is something you believe why not give me some?
Because you haven't yet proven that you are likely to share it on sound principles.
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they likely have a 'look and feel' claim
Which would likely be quashed by Lotus v. Borland among other case law. Game rules and other methods of operation aren't copyrightable (17 USC 102(b)), and any aspect of look and feel that follows directly from an uncopyrightable idea is likewise not copyrightable.
So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Making similar games is perfectly fine. If the basic idea is good, why not have multiple games implement it? Nobody is claiming that every single shooter is a Doom ripoff or that every single strategy game is a Dune ripoff.
Ideas have to be free so they can be used by everyone for everyones benefit.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
This may be a good time to use the low-tech equivalent to check the validity of the arguments. I don't know anything about the two apps in question, but ask yourself this: at what point would a variant of the board game Monopoly be different enough to ensure Parker Brothers couldn't sue you? Would be keeping the same rules, same basic board layout, and same "props" (player tokens, money, property cards, dice, and two decks of event cards) while changing the color, name, and art style of those keep you from being sues? For example, could I make the tokens space ships, the properties different star systems, the money "space credits" that use plastic coins instead of paper bills, and use public domain images of the star systems and call is "Stellar Baron" and not get sued?
Now back to the user interface. If this was the user interface of an operating system, would the original OS UI maker have a court case? What if it was a general application interface? What about making a knock-off of Farmville in the same manner... or replicating its mechanics with a new graphical interface and naming convention - would the developer of the game get sued, and would it be successful?
Finally, if there is a lawyer in the house, what court cases have set precedent in these areas? Honestly, I do not know the answer to these as law is not my field of study. However, I do know I need to know the history of how courts have ruled before I can say whether this is a legal violation or not. (My personal bias: I believe large companies have successfully sued, while small independent game developers of boardgames often have not - but this is based only on a one week investigation into the board game developer career.)
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I couldn't find a case concerning Monopoly in general but here is one by Hasbro on copyright infringement for Play-Doh that is good law (precedent), on which the facts seem similar enough to apply.
Status: Positive or Neutral Judicial Treatment Positive or Neutral Judicial Treatment
*474 Hasbro Inc, Hasbro SA and Hasbro UK Ltd v 123 Nahrmittel GmbH and Marketing & Promotional Services Ltd
High Court of Justice, Chancery Division (England and Wales)
11 February 2011
[2011] EWHC 199 (Ch)
[2011] E.T.M.R. 25
Floyd
Copyright != trademark (Score:3)
one by Hasbro on copyright infringement [...] "The YUMMY DOUGH product was promoted in the United Kingdom as 'The edible play dough'"
I don't see copyright infringement there, just trademark infringement, despite that the two have been conflated of late into "intellectual property" [pineight.com].
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Aren't all RTS games alike? Aren't all FPS games alike? Aren't all boardgames alike? Similarity is just a matter of degree.
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Aren't all boardgames alike?
I think you either got a little too excited or have no clue what a boardgame is. That's like asking if all videogames are alike or if all mammals are alike.
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Doom is a Wolfenstein 3D rip-off.
Too bad Nimblebit is hypocritical (Score:4, Informative)
http://i.imgur.com/ajaYt.jpg
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drumscowski admits within that he hasn't even played tiny tower - if he had he'd realise it's not a vague 'influence' that nimblebit is pissed off about - such as he took from similar games - it's essentially a direct clone with a new skin on top of it.
Re:Too bad Nimblebit is hypocritical (Score:5, Informative)
Don't make a judgment until you have actually played all the games. I haven't, but at least from what one can read on the Internet from people who have: SimTown plays quite different, TinyTower and Zyngas game almost identical and it's not like this is the first time Zynga has done something like this, see FarmTown vs FarmVille.
immoral but probably not illegal (Score:2)
OK it does look like they cloned the game but you can't copyright the ideas behind a game only the artwork and the like. Though there are people who would like to extend copyright in this way and are to a certain extant succeeding.
See the thread a few hours ago on Similar, but not copied, image found to breach copyright.
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OK it does look like they cloned the game but you can't copyright the ideas behind a game only the artwork and the like. Though there are people who would like to extend copyright in this way and are to a certain extant succeeding.
See the thread a few hours ago on Similar, but not copied, image found to breach copyright.
I don't even think it's immoral. And the comparison image by Nimblebit isn't accusing them of being immoral either, it's accusing the of being unimaginative, which is hard to argue against.
All in all, it's not something to be outraged about, and it was a very good response from Nimblebit. "You have 2700 employees and can't come up with a better idea than what our 3 guys came up with. This is why we rock, and we're looking forward to continue to be ahead of you creating new ideas that will inspire your ne
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I don't even think it's immoral. And the comparison image by Nimblebit isn't accusing them of being immoral either, it's accusing the of being unimaginative, which is hard to argue against.
It's hardly newsworthy, though. Zynga has been doing this for a long time.
Sim Tower (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimTower
Or as they say, 'everything is a remix'.
Re:Sim Tower (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Sim Tower (Score:5, Informative)
I've played both SimTower and Tiny Tower. They can only be described as a "remix" if you go to a high enough level that all you can see is that both games have commercial tower construction involved.
In Tiny Tower, you manage all of the people in the building, as well as what each floor is doing - what the stores stock, who works where, who lives where, etc.
In SimTower, you just put in the "zoned" space, and people move in and pay you rent. You manage the building from a facilities perspective, screwing about with elevator timings and where the box stays in the shaft when no one's in it. You manage traffic flow within your building so you don't end up with pissed off people that just want to get out of your building at the end of the day.
They are quite different games. In fact, after finding Tiny Tower, it inspired me to fire up DOSBox with Windows 3.1 and play some SimTower.
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I hate th
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SimTower is an elevator simulator and Tiny Tower is a video game. Having the word Tower in their name doesn't make them similar.
What? (Score:2)
Sorry but "that" screenshot just destroys their case for them. The Zynga version has more options, extremely different options, totally different graphics, different UI, everything.
I don't think they have a case here, and it's NOT like their game was new and building a genre of its own (I hereby give you SimTower / Yoot Tower, which lets you upgrade elevators and put shops on the floors too - from fecking 1994).
You expect me to get all riled about Zygna ripping off your game, but actually I'm more riled th
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What different options? I've played Tiny Tower, and looking at the Dream Heights screenshots is like looking at Tiny Tower with different graphics. All the gameplay elements are 100% identical. I see absolutely nothing whatsoever in Dream Heights that isn't in Tiny Tower.
KBlocks (Score:2)
All the gameplay elements are 100% identical.
But would you agree that gameplay elements are the "methods of operation" of a game?
I see absolutely nothing whatsoever in Dream Heights that isn't in Tiny Tower.
And I see nothing in Free games like KBlocks [kde.org] that isn't in Tetris.
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Whoever owns the copyright on Tetris could probably sue whoever made KBlocks without much issue. However, KBlocks is not developed by a massive corporation making fistfuls of money on the game.
If Zynga released KBlocks as a Facebook game then the Tetris people would sue them and win.
Common method of operation (Score:2)
However, KBlocks is not developed by a massive corporation making fistfuls of money on the game.
Yet the Fedora project funded by Red Hat distributes both KBlocks and Quadrapassel.
If Zynga released KBlocks as a Facebook game then the Tetris people would sue them and win.
As far as I know, every case brought by The Tetris Company has settled out of court. But how are the similarities between Tetris and KBlocks not a consequence of their common method of operation?
Intellectual property laws in action (Score:5, Insightful)
If you copy a big company, the big company will sue you out of existence.
If you copy a small company, the small company will complain so hard you better watch out!
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Unless the one being sued is in China where free software (as in free beer) are flourishing everywhere.
This neatly ties into the copied photo composition (Score:2)
Just a few stories below is the story about a judge claiming that a similar composition is copyright infringement, while clearly insane, how would this ruling apply to these two games? Well BOTH are first and foremost SimTower ripoffs. And that just asumes that SimTower was not based on something else.
Every idea is based on another idea. Where do you stop with copyright infringement when somebody copies an idea? Where would /. be if the idea of a forum was granted copyright?
As bad as it may be to swallow, f
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Tiny Tower, while inspired by SimTower, definitely expands upon SimTower by adding in people management. SimTower was strictly a tower building sim. If Dream Height is identical to Tiny Tower in features and UI with the only difference being a difference in graphics this would be very much like the photo case from earlier. The question is whether the different graphics is sufficient enough to make it a true derivative work rather than creating a clone of the original work or basically does it satisfy the or
SimTower (Score:2, Insightful)
Both games pretty much look like SimTower to me.
Not the first time for Zynga (Score:4, Informative)
In Related Old News: Zynga Sues Vostu for Cloning (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember very well. In the remote year of 2011 [techcrunch.com] Zynga [wikipedia.org] was accusing Vostu [wikipedia.org] of cloning some of their game.
Also in 2009 [techcrunch.com] Zynga was sued for Copyright infringement, this time the settlement was filled by Psycho Monkey, due to the game Mafia Wars.
It seems that there is something very supicious happening with Zynga.
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It seems that there is something very supicious happening with Zynga.
Well? Spit it out then - your post gives very little indication of what it is you actually suspect.
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There's nothing suspicious. Zynga is fairly straightforward about what they do: take existing popular games and clone them. Zynga has the R&D muscle to polish up the graphics and get them out the door in a fairly expeditious fashion. Now, at times, they will simply buy out these games. They tried to buy Tiny Tower before cloning it. Frankly, there's no shortage of earlier games that Tiny Tower is imitating either. All this is right now, is free publicity for both Tiny Tower and Dream Heights. As
MAXIS is going to be pissed (Score:2)
When they hear about this.
News? (Score:2)
This is pretty much business as usual for Zynga.
So? (Score:2)
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Hell, I remember when FPS games were called doom-clones. And they *really* were. There's no denying doom's influence. Some games paid money to licence the engine from Id, but many others merely built their own versions.
Did that mean Id should have a right to sue every video game company? No. And did they try? NO. Id was totally cool with it. They were just glad to have been so successful
Modus Operandi (Score:2)
I thought it was well understood that this was Zynga's business model:
(1) look for and coming mobile games
(2) quickly copy found game and throw a big stack of servers at the back end so that its online play will scale
(3) profit!
Oh yeah, and there was something in there about flogging your workers in a very typical game industry sweat shop. All the stories I've heard coming out of Zynga was that it truly is crunch mode 100% of the time there.
"Yeah, I'm going to need you to come in on Saturday, mkay? Oh yea
I'll pretend to be shocked about this... (Score:2)
This does not surprise me, not one bit.
Somewhere, a lawyer is filling his fountain pen and getting a hungry gleam in his eye... a hunger for suing that is...
Yes (Score:2)
because Tiny Tower is so original.
but zynga are paragons of virtue (Score:2)
How can this be true?
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well, I think what he should have done would have been to sell out to zynga. better analogy would be a guy coming to you with a pile of money and saying take this bribe and don't go to work - then when you refuse they start selling copycat products that put the factory you were working at out of business.
and then make a better clone of tiny tower. he didn't sell out probably because he thought tiny tower will keep making him more money for a long time, except that there's no reason why it really would go li