Apple Changes Stance On Water Damage Policy 155
tekgoblin writes "It appears Apple has changed its stance on whether an iOS device is actually water damaged. If you remember when the 13-year-old girl sued Apple in December, it was because her iPhone's moisture sensors had gone off and Apple voided her warranty. Those sensors have also been triggered by simply exposing the phone to low temperatures. Now Apple says that if the moisture sensors are red but the customer disputes and says no liquid has come into contact with the device, the warranty may still apply."
Awesome! (Score:4, Funny)
This will save me a lot of money on dry cleaning.
Unreliable (Score:5, Insightful)
Now Apple says that if the moisture sensors are red but the customer disputes and says no liquid has come into contact with the device, the warranty may still apply.
In other words, the sensors are unreliable.
Escape clause (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, nothing has changed; it is still at their sole discretion if they wishes to honor the warranty.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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I have to clarify: There is no such thing as a voided warranty. This is a misunderstanding of you rights.
Suppose the warranty says "This warranty will repair any damage due to improper workmanship." Or maybe it says "This warranty covers damage that is not the result of user negligence such as immersion in water, fire, ..."
When you bring in a phone that was drowned and immolated they can refuse to replace it. They didn't void the warranty: they followed the warranty. A warranty is a legal contract. If y
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In other words, nothing has changed; it is still at their sole discretion if they wishes to honor the warranty.
Or maybe someone realized that nothing works 100% of the time and maybe they shouldn't deny 100% of the claims where the sensor is red and the language is reasonably updated to reflect that.
Or to be even more cynical so as to be more of a karma whore, this undoubtedly means that apple updated their TOS to where if you send your phone in for warranty repairs, they'll keep it if it has water damage. They're trying to encourage more people to send in their phones so apple can put them in pillow cases and beat
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But if it isn't 100% reliable then it is useless. You would have to look for other signs of water damage or call the customer a liar; either way the sensor is of no value.
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It always is - until the point where somebody sues them.
Anyone can ALWAYS say: "we don't cover that".
At which point your options are: a) accept it. b) sue them.
There's not really a realistic third option in most cases. Well, you can stop buying from them offcourse, but that doesn't force them to honor their warranty.
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There's not really a realistic third option
Go postal?
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In other words, at low temperatures condensation becomes a problem. Many modern electronic devices have heating circuits built in to prevent condensation, portable devices for obvious reasons do not.
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Right. So it's unreliable. It's supposed to detect the thing getting dunked in a liquid, but instead it detects ambient humidity. It's unreliable for what it's intended for.
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> Many modern electronic devices have heating circuits built in
Electronic devices have CPUs, film at eleven :-)
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Here in south Florida we have the same problem. There are no untriggered moisture sensors on cell phones or other portable devices in South Florida due to the high humidity. After some initial resistance years ago, the companies now honor the warranties without real trouble - at least for us. But we have a million dollar telco account so maybe our experience is a little different...
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Blasphemy!! (Score:2)
Are you seriously trying to explain science in an Alabama church??? This is blasphemy and you will be burnt alive by the slashdot church of Steve Jobs
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My wife would have switched it on straight away to check that it still worked.
Moisture sensors (Score:5, Informative)
The funny thing is those papers are used in semiconductor bulk packaging to serve as a warning, not that the parts are unusable due to water but that a pre-bake may be necessary to drive water out that entered the packaging as a result of ambient humidity.
So yeah, anything that involves thermal shifts resulting in possible condensation can set these off while not harming the phone in the slightest. I don't know why anyone thinks these are in any way reliable.
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Because it used to allow Apple to reject a warranty claim when they should honor it...mainly because they could BS their way into saying they were infallible before all of this... It's all about the Benjamins, you know.
Re:Moisture sensors (Score:5, Informative)
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The funny thing is those papers are used in semiconductor bulk packaging to serve as a warning, not that the parts are unusable due to water but that a pre-bake may be necessary to drive water out that entered the packaging as a result of ambient humidity.
So yeah, anything that involves thermal shifts resulting in possible condensation can set these off while not harming the phone in the slightest. I don't know why anyone thinks these are in any way reliable.
A co-worker of mine has a waterproof phone. He can literally immerse it in a sink of water, hose it down, take underwater pictures in a swimming pool, etc. with no concern about damaging it. I forgot what model he has, but it was not particularly expensive.
I doubt it would be infeasible for Apple to just make their iPhones waterproof like this. It should be easier than worrying about all of these unreliable sensors, defending against a lawsuit, and dealing with angry customers who expect warranty serv
Re:Moisture sensors (Score:4, Informative)
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That's an issue with many (most? all?) capacitive touch screens.
My Motorola Droid acts the same way. In the summer, when it's hot out and I'm sweating like a pig, I keep it in a tightly-fit vinyl pouch to keep the touchscreen responsive. The rest of the year, it does just fine in my front pocket without any additional protection.
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Setting aside the problems of maintaining the aesthetics while keeping it waterproof
I bet that issue is keeping the GPs co-worker up at nights.
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I bet it doesn't have a normal headphone socket though. There is no way to waterproof a 3.5mm jack socket.
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Agreed, I've torn apart a fair number of iphones and the "sensor" (protip: it's a paper dot) had been triggered and the phone had NOT seen any liquid water.
Hell, hot breath would void an applecare with those dots. At the very least, this is a positive move for the customer.
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And why do you think those bulk semiconductor parts need to "pre-bake" after being exposed to moisture instead of just being used immediately like, for instance, you might do with a phone that's already powered on?
Re:Moisture sensors (Score:4, Informative)
Troll.
As if Apple was the only one using those things.
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Troll.
As if Apple was the only one using those things.
Failure.
As if others doing the same make this "same" more ethical.
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Failure.
Fail.
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Afaik, others use more reliable sensors. At least nokia does, as their phones are in fact tested in Finnish winter.
The issue here isn't a general sensor failure, but the fact that it's common for sensors used by apple to fail in normal outdoors usage during winter.
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You found a single thread, made by a ranting user who obviously used his phone in a pouring rain shower (he essentially admits it) obviously causing water damage (it's not a crappy "tripped sensor" issue apple bitches about - engineer actually photographed water still INSIDE THE PHONE and sent it to the user as a reason for warranty voiding).
I understand that considering your name, you can't really give any other reply, but could you at least try to find a reasonably comparable case? Or is this really the c
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Because there aren't any.
We have a boatload of standard "I swear I didn't use it in the pouring rain/drop it into a puddle of water" cases which are usually retorted by engineers who simply send people a photo of utterly corroded main board. This is a plain case of real water damage not covered by warranty, as phones aren't water-proof. Which is exactly what happened in this case you mention.
On the other hand, apple is actually dumb enough to use sensor-based only reasons, with no other signs of water damag
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Ah, such eloquence. Let's see:
Forum link to ranting poster eventually admitting it really was water damage as #1
Same on #2.
Same on #3.
Same for SE. Same for Samsung. Same for LG.
Apple? Norwegian officials investigating, people complaining about "tripped sensors by cold weather".
Truly takes a fanboy who resorts to profanity to ignore facts in his face and claim that those who state these facts are "paid by apple's competition".
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Translation (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: Our useless sensor is about to lead us into nasty litigation that will likely void our warranty-evasion scheme, so we better open the door a little bit.
Re:Translation (Score:5, Interesting)
>>Apple are possibly the worst for warranties... and more specifically owning up to defects.
I suppose that explains Apple remaining in the top 3 for the last what 15 yrs in computer customer service.
Just this week I have seen Apple volunteer to repair TWO computers that were flat out abused by the customer because they want to keep happy customers. Your statement about Apple being "the worst" for warranties is about the biggest pile of flaming BS I have seen recently. They're expensive, they're arrogant, they're controlling, etc, but the grand majority of their customers rate the warranty and customer support five star.
That being said, yes the LSI are unreliable. They're also used worldwide by almost anyone that manufactures a handheld electronic gadget, including darn near 100% of cell phone manufacturers because they're cheap and WILL identify liquid contact. (erroring in their favor, what did you expect?) And every single one of them has started the game with a "if we see red, the warranty is void" policy, and will make exceptions/considerations in the customer's favor. (some more often than others) Take your dead cell phone into the store and say it won't turn on. The very first thing they will do is remove the battery. Not to reset it. (that's what they'll say though) But to look at the (most easily accessed, one of many) LSI in the phone. You make it sound like Apple is the only one in the world that does this. Remove your cell phone's battery. Look for the white dot.
>>I suppose owning up to a defect is difficult when your under the delusion of perfection
"defect" implies there was a "correct" way to do it. What was your suggestion? Don't you think by now someone would be wealthy having made a better solution to this industry-wide problem, if it were a trivial thing to improve on?
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Interesting, here in Denmark Apple has one of the lowest ratings when it comes to customer support - they have several times been beaten by the Danish consumer watchdog in cases where they refused to honor warranty.
So either their policy where you are from are different - or everyone else just truly sucks when it comes to customer service?
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>> I suppose that explains Apple remaining in the top 3 for the last what 15 yrs in computer customer service.
Nope. For that, you will have to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [wikipedia.org]. And not only that, the tendency to justify something is directly proportional to the money you have already sunk in it. Simple as that.
As for your anecdotes, I have few too to prove you wrong. But they are just that, anecdotes.
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You haven't looked too deep, have you?
"Your statement about Apple being "the worst" for warranties is about the biggest pile of flaming BS I have seen recently. They're expensive, they're arrogant, they're controlling, etc, but the grand majority of their customers rate the warranty and customer support five star."
Ask anyone who ever owned an iBook, particularly the G3 series. For years, Apple *knowingly* manufactured laptops with mechanical defects that caused the laptops to quickly die due to stress crac
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Was that your attempt at defending Apple? Some anecdotal events and claiming they're no worse than anyone else?
Re:Translation (Score:5, Informative)
Apple are possibly the worst for warranties... and more specifically owning up to defects.
They just gave me a 27" iMac in exchange for my 2 1/2 year old 24" iMac that was bugging out. That's why I always get AppleCare, because the service has been outstanding.
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What you said!
I bought a first generation MacBook when they made the switch to Intel. A little over a year and a half ago it just completely died. I brought it in, they said the mainboard was fried, and said it would cost me $500 to fix it because it was out of warranty and not under Apple Care.
Three days later I go in to pick up my machine and they didn't just fix it - they gave me an entirely new machine. Better processor, more ram, bigger hard drive and better video. So, for $500 I got an entirely new ma
Re:Translation (Score:5, Informative)
Apple are possibly the worst for warranties... and more specifically owning up to defects.
My wife has had many free out-of-warranty repairs on her {i|Mac}Books over the years, and I've had at least one. Dealing with the call center is hopeless, but the techs at the Genius Bars tend to be very helpful, even when the warranty is expired or (in my wife's case) you've spilled tea all over your laptop's keyboard.
Depends (Score:2)
I've had less pleasant interactions. My first mac had some serious hardware issues that took some legal threats to get fixed despite it being only a month old.
A few years ago I convinced my SO to buy a macbook, she had to return it to Apple 14 times (!). Everything failed on it, screen, harddrive, DVD drive, graphics card, the case (splintering white plastic on the edges.
This continued until it went out of warranty, then they told her she was out of luck. Ultimately the third party shop she had bought throu
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Which is why we need some much harsher consumer protection laws for this kind of hardware. I think we should have a lemon law that extends the warranty for a considerable time for any device that needs repeated servicing while under warranty.
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IDK, they did give me a near top of the line Mac Pro when my liquid cooled G5 sprung a leak several years outside the warranty period.
And they also gave me a new laptop for 75% off several years back just because my previous one had required several repairs, which were all at their expense.
Not Always Right (Score:4, Funny)
I know the cell phone companies (including Apple in this overgeneralization) are a bunch of greedy so-and-so's, but a quick perusal of the stories at (The Customer Is) NotAlwaysRight.com will show why the Water Damage excuse is rather valid.
Such as, the borderline fraudulent:
And then, the just stupid:
(Fair warning, though... My Ghostery plug-in shows a whopping 18 web-watchers on that site. No wonder it won't come up on my phone. Or maybe it's the water damage.)
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The first one is bordering on fraud, the second is what a reasonable person would call "normal use" for a portable device. It's not like they couldn't anticipate that someone might get caught in the rain one day. A penny's worth of sealant could solve the problem. Perhaps they should have designed and/or built it better.
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I was talking to a friend while walking through the rain, and thinking, "Gee, it's good I have the headphones, or I'd get some severe water damage to this thing." While I initially started to curse A
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Jack connections are standardized, as are many other connection types. Wouldn't it be possible to get something "generic" to close those gaps?
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So basically, you are saying that apple just fucked you over and over with the iphone, and you are still calling other phones crap!?! Bravo!! Bravo!!
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The other phones supplied rain covers, but since they break off with any level of use, they are actually just an illusion of protection; in real-world usage, they're no more useful than no covers at all.
With the iPhone, I don't have the ugly broken covers poking out on all sides; I wish there were a better option for keeping the phone well seal
iPod Shuffle vs. Coffee (Score:2)
Some years ago, my original-version iPod Shuffle had an unfortunate meeting with a cup of coffee. The music playing functions didn't survive the event, IIRC because the battery got toasted, but it still works fine as a USB memory stick. Of course, a gigabyte of memory stick was a lot bigger back then than it is now, and I suppose I should try to hack something interesting with the remains.
Many years before, my Palm Pilot III had a similar misfortune, and the falling cup of coffee also took out the backup
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Actually, cows *ARE* electronic... well, electricAL, at least... all mammals are. The voltage levels are miniscule, but they are still there, and they are the means by which our muscles are forced to contract, and are even involved in the very thoughts that we think.
It would probably be more correct to say that a cow's electrical architecture is simply much (!) more tolerant of the presence of moisture than typical consumer electronics devices are. We only started making consumer electronic devices in
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Using a phone while walking to somewhere it's not raining (car, home, work, etc) is normal, using a computer outside in the rain isn't. Do you see where you went wrong with that?
Slashdot on the iphone... (Score:4, Informative)
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I have an iphone 4 and it has the same problem with the top title being cut-off.
Speed is just fine.
Apple Is Saying.... (Score:1)
I'm a cellphone tech at one of the US Big 4 (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem with LDI stickers is that it just shows that the sticker was exposed to liquid. At the unnamed cellphone provider I work for failing a phone for a tripped sticker if they have insurance won't fly. We have to find corrosion or other signs of liquid intrusion on the circuit board.
But seriously people. If you use your phone in extreme conditions and it fails, that is not something that should ever be covered under a warranty. I love how they are saying that the LDI's aren't fair because if you us
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Given some conditions that have triggered the stickers, if they actually indicate conditions the phone can't cope with, they should withdraw it from the market. A humid day in NYC can set it off. A cold day in a major Canadian city can set it off. Just imagine all those stupid people who for some reason thought it was safe to remove a portable electronic device from the box and (GASP!) carry it around with them. The shame!
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I love how they are saying that the LDI's aren't fair because if you use the phone in -20C and then go inside they can trip.
Isn't the point here that you simply carry the phone in -20C and then go inside, and it trips?
And -20C is not uncommon temperature in some regions where a lot of people live, you know. Russia commonly has a few weeks of that every winter, and I'm not talking Siberia here, but Moscow and whereabouts.
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No the point is that using the phone in temperature and humidity ranges conditions that Apple themselves state are acceptable may trigger the LDI dots. If being near a sweaty body is a problem, then they should stop advertising the ipod to people who run. Otherwise that's false advertising and the product is not suitable for the purpose for which it's being sold.
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I hate talking to myself, but I thought I'd post the ACTUAL SPECS from http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html [apple.com]. Unfortunately exposing the iphone to conditions within these specs can result in the LDIs turning red.
Environmental requirements
* Operating temperature: 32 to 95 F (0 to 35 C)
* Nonoperating temperature: -4 to 113 F (-20 to 45 C)
* Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
*
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Ah, lovely - so iPhone is unusable outdoors whenever (and wherever) it snows. Good to know.
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They are kinda like the Danish trains, they also only seem to be operating in the spring and early fall.
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Well, that rules Florida right out. Summer high temperatures are commonly >95 degrees F, winters can get below 32 degrees F, summer relative humidity is 98% frequently. And going from summer heat to a building instantly makes that 98% relative humidity condensing.
iPhone users in Florida (and similar states), be warned. Apple doesn't want their products used by the people.
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-20 C is -4 F, Thats not uncommon in WI, MN, MI, ND, probably a good part of the NE states, and even lower sometimes.
It seems like a ridiculous spec for a mobile phone.
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But seriously people. If you use your phone in extreme conditions and it fails, that is not something that should ever be covered under a warranty.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an iPhone is a cellular telephone, right?
I'm just wondering. If it is, then it needs to handle temperatures and humidity that a cellular telephone might normally encounter.
Re:I'm a cellphone tech at one of the US Big 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
"I'm a cellphone tech at one of the US Big 4" ---
Guess what -20C is BAD for your electronics.
My data center is held at constant temperature and humidity for electronics. I DON'T intend to stay in a data center to use a phone. In Alberta, Canada it routinely gets to -30C (as it did this morning in fact) and I expect the phone to work. Did I say, after it thaws out? No I meant in -30C weather.
You know what's BAD for a car engine? -30C
You know what's BAD for plastic? -30C
You know what's BAD for plants and animals? -30C
Sure its not good but it should still work.
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Don't buy an iPhone then. It's only rated to operate down to 0C. Below -20C, it explodes, leaving a puff of vapor which forms into Steve Jobs's head, laughing at you.
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You know what's BAD for a car engine? -30C
You know what's BAD for plastic? -30C
You know what's BAD for plants and animals? -30C
Sure its not good but it should still work.
Plants and animals generally don't "still work" at -30C. Only very specialized plants and animals do.
If you purchase a pack of alligators to pull your Iditarod sled across Alaska, not only are you operating them outside their design specs, the clerk has every right to deny you a warranty replacement when yours dies.
You should use specialized, extra-insulated alligators. But they aren't mass produced, so they cost more.
Unrelated damage (Score:2)
What I don't understand, is how Apple can get away with using the "moisture" sensor to void all warranties. If the damage was likely caused by moisture, sure, but I've heard examples of Apple stores refusing repair of broken buttons or other defects that clearly are not related to water in any way.
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Actually, many membrane keyswitches (and electronics components in general) are designed - and encouraged by the manufacturer - to be washed in water after assembly. Together with water-soluble fluxes [finishing.com], this is a standard manufacturing step to remove flux residue and other contaminants. (Enclaimer: IAAEE)
(One caveat; this is distilled/DI water based cleaning; a dip in the ocean is an entirely different story!)
Not up to Apple (Score:3)
What I love in stories like this is the implication that Apple actually gets to CHOOSE when the warranty applies. This is wrong for at least two reasons:
1. You have private rights against Apple which you are entitled to enforce.
2. You have statutory rights which Apple cannot simply declare to be null and void.
On #1, you have the right to hold Apple to the warranty and to the contract of sale. Depending upon how it's expressed at the time you buy the device, the mere fact that a little sticker changes colour does not mean that Apple gets to unilaterally walk away from its obligations to you any more than you can unilaterally alter the terms of the warranty or agreement yourself.
On #2, in many places there are statutory warranties which do not give a flying fuck what Apple's opinion about a little sticker is. Again, they are likely to depend upon whether the device actually was damaged by the user through misuse, or whether it was in fact designed or manufactured in a defective way. Obviously these rights varies by jurisdiction.
The common thread is that Apple's arbitrary statements of "fact" do not in any way affect your right to have a defective product repaired or replaced, or to obtain a refund. The fact that a sticker changes colour does not somehow alter reality to mean that you did drop your device in a glass of water when you didn't, any more than a device which has been carefully half dipped in water would lead to a refund simply because the sticker hasn't changed colour.
I also wonder whether Apple implying that it is their random declarations of policy which determine whether you have refund rights might not be illegal. Certainly under Australia's new Australian Consumer Law it will be a serious offence to make false or misleading statements about what rights consumers have, and as of 2012 goods will be required to include a statement from the manufacturer confirming the consumers rights under the legislation.
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Not in the UK it doesn't. Small Claims Court, about 3 - 4 hours of your time (which your claim includes compensaion for) to cire teh relevant portions of the sales of goods acts, et al, and about £40 to file. IF Apple turn up (unlikely) they willhave just cost themselves more than the new phone, never mind the preparation time.
This is a *strong* system in the UK - normaly the threat alone (well, reserving the right to file and stating a deadline) will obtain a positive response
sounds like what they really need... (Score:1)
is a droid that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators
Insurance? (Score:2)
I dont know about AT&T's smartphone insurance, but when I got mine from a nameless company that rhymes with Lint, the person at the store actually told me "If it fails due to water damage, dont tell us, dont bring the phone in, call the warranty number and say the phone was lost, you'll just have to pay $50 for a refurbished one, but they wont flat out reject the warranty".
But, I know some providers wont insure smartphones, because they're so "Expensive". And if you're worried about data...remember th
They have treated me OK (Score:2)
I dropped my original iPhone in the tub. I was taking a soak and reading/answering emails -- one of those hell weeks where I was working around the clock and getting 45 minutes of sleep a day, if I was that lucky. I dozed off for a minute and startled back awake, and had let the bottom of the phone drop into the water. It was dead, dead, dead. I tried drying it out with desiccant, but no luck. It had *not* triggered the sensor (it was still pure white). I was honest though, took it to the store and to
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that is the normal rate for a new phone
Iphone 4 enviro req, straight from apple (Score:2)
* Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F
(0° to 35° C)
* Nonoperating temperature: -4° to 113° F
(-20° to 45° C)
* Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
* Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)
So, do you k
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op temp 32 to 95 F, 0 to 35 C
non-op temp -4 to-113 F, -20 to 45 C
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Right now where I live: 1C and 97% relative humidity.
The important thing about humidity is that it is non-condensing (i.e. not raining) and that the temperature of the device is kept above the dew point (otherwise water condenses on and inside the device). So:
- dropping it in the bath tub: bad
- using it in fog: bad
- taking a cold device (eg. 5C) from the outside to the inside where the temperature is higher but relative humidity is also high: bad
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And outside right now here, it's outside of the official operating conditions too. Currently:
Temp: 38 C / 100 F (outside operating range)
Dewpoint: 3 C (giving a relative humidity of ~10%, which is OK but not far from outside acceptable range)
Having said that I've been using my phone outside all day and I don't think anything bad is going to happen to it. It's on the cold/moist side of things that you might trip the sensor, not the hot/dry side. I wonder what the maximum operating temp is set so low for actu
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Wait, a 13 year old girl sued? (Score:2)
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Too late for me (Score:2)
They refused to fix my 3GS.
I had only the bottom sensor tripped and this was due to having a long call AFTER getting out of a jacuzzi and having a rather sweaty head. Still, it at least gave me the motivation for taking my iphone apart and scratching away at metal bits inside it until it started working again.
This is the one issue that means my next phone will be Android.
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They refused to fix my 3GS.
I had only the bottom sensor tripped and this was due to having a long call AFTER getting out of a jacuzzi and having a rather sweaty head. Still, it at least gave me the motivation for taking my iphone apart and scratching away at metal bits inside it until it started working again.
This is the one issue that means my next phone will be Android.
Because now you know how to fix water damage when your Android phone maker will refuse a warranty repair because of water damage.
Exchange program/generosity/honesty (Score:2)
Nothing new (Score:2)
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A modern mobile device has to withstand the moisture from rapid temperature changes like getting outside in winter from your home.
What they do not have to withstand is being dropped into a water basin or similar ... except certain special devices which are hardened against a lot of environmental effects.
Esp when looking at the target audience, I have no idea why any court should accept apples original stance on moisture for mobile devices.
If the guy next to me's stupid ring tone goes off one more time his phone may have to withstand a very quick change to a warm, damp, dark environment.