Developers Sidestepping Apple Firewire Fee? 61
TDO writes "According to this story, developers are trying to work around the $1 per port apple tax on fire wire.Check it out.. "
The gist is that developers are going to create a backwards
compatible version without Apple Intellectual Property.
But it'll take a few years.
I told you so. (Score:1)
But the flame-first think-later, Apple-can-do-no-wrong morons still try to defend it.
How does FireWire compare to FCAL (Fibre Channel)? (Score:1)
Still, FireWire's upgrade path includes some really _intense_ bandwidth potential, plus it's supposed to be cheaper than SCSI/FC-AL, yes? That alone (cheaper) might be worth it. Okay, so you pay a few bucks to Apple, but your harddrive of the future is $150 cheaper?
Another thing to consider - hardware design. If you can replace _ALL_ your computer I/O ports with USB & FireWire - this will help immensely with small computers. Just think, all the I/O - but no need for PS/2, Serial, Parallel, and SCSI on the back of your machine. Sweet! Now, I don't much like the idea of the world going to the 'every device is external' idea that Apple seems to have revived from the days of the Apple //c (that makes for a lot of cables & little items on your desktops, folks), but the possibilities for convergence are quite amazing.
Anyone seen the Intel "Concept PC's"? If you haven't, check them out here [intel.com]. They aren't the best-looking things in the world, but they're a lot more interesting than the 'Beige Box' we're all (sadly) used to. A lot better than that pansy-ass iMac design, too. I especially like the little metallic-orange pyramid one. And the implications for wearable computers are astonishing. Anyway, just think of the possibilities!
My, I think I've rambled on enough here. What _was_ my original subject?
Rights of Ownership (Score:1)
Apple INVENTED FireWire! They (along with TI) designed a cutom made solution to the bandwidth and connection crisis. After spending years getting the technology right, Apple patented it and is charging late-comers (TI, Sony, Magnavox, Panasonic, and many others already have a license) a $1-per-port fee. Is this that horrible? Is this that different from the licensing of Dolby AC3 technology?
I agree that open-source (in this case, open-tech) is a good method of desinging things, but if a private company invests millions of its own dollars in creating something and others want to use it, doesn't that company deserve to be paid for its efforts?
And in response to the FireWire vs. SCSI debates:
Yes, current high-end SCSI goes to 100MBps and they may be able to sqeeze even more out of it with Differential tech, etc... But SCSI is a very complex system, even for admins. The typical user (ie, not us) gets confused by dealing with termination, id conflicts, giant cables, cable length, and not swearing at the connectors (trust me, karma helps). FireWire is growable (goes up to 1600MBps in theory), id-less, termination-less, and smaller.
The real benefits, though, are in isosynchranous(sp?) transport, hot-plugability, and topology. FireWire can guarantee a constant stream of time dependant information (ie, from a digital camcorder) that SCSI cannot (if it could, Sony would be putting SCSI ports on it's camcorders). Devices are hot-plugable..the benefits of this are obvious. Jobs demoed a movie being played from a FW Hard Drive and showed it being connected and disconnected w/o a hitch.
The Topology is rad because it lets you set up essentially a local area network with the full abndwidth of FireWire (more than one computer can use a FireWire device simultaneously). You can use any combination of daisy-chain, bus, star, or ring topologies simultaneously. We plan to use this here to put our security cameras on a FireWire bus; then any of us (or all of us) can view a live, crystal-clear feed on our desktop from any of the cameras simultaneously.
FireWire is an amazingly cool technology who's only real competitor will be Fibre-Channel (whenever that takes off), and that only in thew server market. Frankly, at $1-per-port, this kind of capability is a bargain.
-Japheth Cleaver
kick off PowerPC motha (Score:1)
Mmm mmm, why is nobody using PowerPC, but Apple? 7 watt average for G3, think OpenFirmware, G4, AltiVec..is nobody making a new consumer platform?
Intel gets to be monopoly and there isn't an alternative but: Apple, AMD K6, Pentium..or not.
SCSI *does* allow multiple computers... (Score:1)
With SCSI, *any* device on the SCSI bus can talk to *any* other device. It's just that the technology has been used from the standpoint of having a single host adapter interface in a computer, and having that computer tell all the other devices what to do.
Right now, I have two complete SCSI buses in my PC - one of which has multiple 'initiators' on it, working just fine. I routinely transfer data between one initiator and the other, or both initiators transferring data from separate storage devices, etc.
Lower down the food chain ... (Score:1)
You're X-CORP, a large PC manufacturer. You need to buy a couple million motherboards for your production. Lets just say you need to buy a million motherboards (not too unrealistic), and you want to buy them for $55 each.
Do you spend $55 million, or do you spend $56 million, for the mobo's with the Apple firewire port?
I say... give apple their dollar. (Score:1)
Remember what happened when the "Industry" rejected the PS/2's Microchannel Architecture? They went and developed the EISA! (And we all know how well that went over don't we?) Hindsight indicates that EISA was a failure and MCA ended up being passed over. The industry finally went to PS/2 connectors for keyboards and mice and PCI for bus. Where is IBM's payoff and incentive to research new technologies? NOT TO BE SEEN. Heck, we have IBM to thank for even having PC's.
If Apple is willing to create the technology and license it for a measly dollar then I'm willing to pay for it. Which Motherboard manufacturer is going to be the first to provide Firewire to the x86 crowd hmmm?
Its in Apple's nature... (Score:1)
but I don't think Compaq or the other major PC vendors will ever
agree to a per port fee. To be honest, although FireWire(tm) seems
an elegant solution, I'm real happy with SCSI and USB.
I will not begrudge Apple's right to exercise its precious patents
according to its own will. Apple has a right to be as stupid as
it wants. FireWire(tm) will now digress into a proprietary Imac
only feature.
* FireWire is a trademark of Apple Computer Corp. Too bad.
You were correct, sir! (Score:1)
We have enough problem with patents as it is; I don't think we need to further complicate matters with a patented interface to our peripherals.
Can someone explain... (Score:1)
1: Why do people cite this so often? I mean, I don't see the difficulty. Each device needs a unique ID. The bus needs to be terminated. What's so hard about that?
2: That would be a limitation. You can only have so many devices sharing power on a bus like that before there's not enough voltage to drive them all.
3: Sounds dangerous to me...
4: Well, yes, but that's just cause lack of demand yields higher prices. If SCSI were in wider use, cables, terminators and all that would be a dime a dozen.
I think I'll wait and see what happens with the FireWire vs. SCSI debate. Personally, I think Apple trying to collect $1 per manufactured FireWire port could just be the death of it. But, we'll see, I suppose.
Razor thin margins -- only for certain markets!!! (Score:1)
60fps at half height. (Score:1)
Remember, it's "interlaced" which means only half the lines are drawn. So, really, it's 720x240x60fps which is still the same bandwidth as 720x240x30fps.
I told you so. - (1$ manufacture == 10$ retail) (Score:1)
To those with no design (for) manufacturing experience, one dollar in cost to produce an item roughly equates to a ten dollar price in the store. Think taxes, profits, insurance, retailers all take a BIG cut.
It's because /. is made of Linux bigots (Score:1)
And Linux advocates wonder why so many people think that Linux users act like children.
--
Timur "too sexy for my code" Tabi, timur@tabi.org, http://www.tabi.org
Strangely enough, APPLE doesn't make the PPC! (Score:1)
They are *Concept* machines, not real designs! (Score:1)
Depending on how it was designed, one could make a micro-size computer and make it easily upgradable. Lots of externally-accessible bays, etc. Just swap things in and out - only bad design of current machines makes it a requirement that everything must be accessed from the inside only! I say make everything hot-swappable! And maybe move the power supply outside the chassis - like my HP deskjet printer - it's a little brick sitting on the floor. No need to have it in the box, right? All you need are some quiet little fans for cooling the stuff in the case. Or better yet, a phase-change system with no moving mechanical parts. Lots of possibilities here, just no courageous computer manufacturers. *sigh*
And btw - screw the floppy drive - sure, we need removable media, but the floppy has long since outlived its usefulness. A new standard is needed ASAP. I like the specs of the Sony HiFD.
As usual the media blows it out of proportion... (Score:1)
If companies don't want to enter into a contract with Apple they have to pay a $1/port fee.
Apple spent it's money developing the technology, now they need to recoup the money. How outrageous of them!
What MOST companies are doing is entering into contract with Apple - which amounts to paying a one-time flat fee and/or offering R&D projects.
The reality is that companies who've entered into contract with Apple are paying 1/2 to 1/4 that "outrageous" $1/port fee.
So, hey, let's see... Compaq just shipped a computer with a 1394 port on the back. Gosh, their system costs $1 more now! My god, I'd better go buy a Packard Bell instead!
not reliable (Score:1)
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Computers and DTV (Score:1)
Sony is a leading proponent of using firewire in connecting digital settop boxes and digital TV receivers. Sony has also already licenced firewire for a very cheap royalty fee. There is more at stake with firewire than just computers.
Finally, I had to chuckle when I read that the some companies (e.g., Microsoft and Intel) were kind of miffed about Apple's firewire licencing deal. Et tu Brutus?
BTW, isn't Apple trying to get quicktime adopted as an MPEG standard? Are we going to have this type of discussion again?
$1 Now, or $0.50 Later, or $0 Much Later (Score:1)
a) Work with everyone elses
b) Know of any pitfalls/shortcomings
c) Not cause a splinter in the marketplace (ISDN Anyone?)
d) Allow you to ride others success (There are at least 2 companies trying to be the Dolby of Firewire)
Right now everyone is in the same boat. If Pete's Hardware and Dave's Hardware both make firewire speakers, they will both be charged/ing $1 per port and thier respective razor thin profits will be the same. The only people getting a break are the really big guys that always get the breaks or do the R&D.
Of course you can just create a firewire compatible system for $$$$ R&D. Also, of course, all the companies that do this will charge others to use thier firewire clone. Say for $0.50 a little over a year from now.
Or you can wait for 2-3 years for a completely defined standard that costs little to nothing. Of course by this time firewire will be strong enough not to be splintered by crappy rip-offs claiming to be improvements. (the previous posts about beta vs. VHS)
In the end, you will end up paying for R&D somewhere, TANSTAAFL. Just like Technocolor, Dolby AC3, OmniMax, PCI, Pentium, or RCA's original TV system, etc.
Vote with your wallets. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
How does FireWire compare to FCAL (Fibre Channel)? (Score:1)
Hot Plugable, Device to Device (Score:1)
It's hot pluggable.
It does not need a computer: camera to computer works as well as camera to storage [quantum.com].
And Digital VCR to TV ;) Hey maybe we will use ieee1394 hard drives for weekly taping, instead of tapes. It's easier to zap commerials that way.
Concept Macs (RE: Concept PCs) (Score:1)
Other hardware taxes (Score:1)
Can someone explain... (Score:1)
1. It's fine for a static configuration, but bringing a new device is a pain. Now try juggling more than 7 devices on the bus. FireWire supports up to 128 devices.
2. Power over the bus is optional -- for laptop peripherals, etc.
3. Flexible topology is dangerous? What if the Internet were serial in nature? Your objection makes no sense.
4. SCSI is still in pretty wide use, and prices have come down alot in the last 5 years. It's just those honking big cables and connectors.
And I hope Apple makes enough money to justify their investment... the technology is worth it.
Razor thin margins -- only for certain markets!!! (Score:1)
Those manufacturers that can afford extra ports are shipping boxes to consumers who want the features and are willing to pay for better hardware configurations. People doing DV editing, those who want low cost laptop peripherals, and consumers sick of SCSI -- those will be the people who are going to buy these systems.
Besides someone is going to bear the cost of developing a new 1394-compatible standard, and they'll probably end up paying more getting it to market than they would just paying the licensing.
Let's keep it in perspective
Can someone explain... (Score:1)
Above post NOT anonymous (Score:1)
-JC
I told you so, not! (Score:1)
Why is it everyone sees thing in pure black and white?
Very few things in the world are so cut and dried. Personally I think FireWire is a cool technology and over pricing it would hurt its acceptance. I don't see this happening though. Last I heard Sony, Texas Instruments, Fuji, Philips and Sun were plenty happy with the arrangement. In fact I believe Sony licensed the Apple patents for a flat $7,500. Somehow I doubt they've made only 7500 FireWire devices...
Firewire licsensing (Score:1)
If there are only a couple of years before a backcompt version not using Apple tech is in boxes they only have 2 or 3 major years to recuperate many years of work.
Its in Apple's nature... (Score:1)
Why is it that millions of wintel lemmings go apoplectic when Apple wants to license its proprietary intellectual property? This is exactly what MS has done for years and is simply considered 'good business'. Try and buy a pc *without* having MS windows 95/98 (which itself is still a poor rip off of the Mac OS) installed on it. Do you think this is given to the vendor? Nope, they pay MS their licensing fee for it and pass it onto the lemmings.
What's good for the goose...
Somebody else DOES use PowerPC... (Score:1)
Deep Blue can even take a PowerPC upgrade now...look out Kasparov!
Admittedly these aren't exactly CONSUMER boxes (the ones I worked with on my last job were about $11,000 a pop), but they are an example of somebody besides Apple shipping PowerPC systems.
Can someone explain... (Score:1)
Why not ATM? (Score:1)
It's alive and well, primarily as an infrastructure networking topology. Hell, ATM acts as the backbone fabric to several national ISPs providing bandwith in the 100s of Mbps range.
However, as a desktop topology, it's kind of expensive.
-tom