New Bill Would Force Apple, Google To Open App Store Ecosystems 83
Rep. Kat Cammack (R-FL) introduced the App Store Freedom Act [PDF] on Tuesday, legislation that would compel "large app store operators" with over 100 million US users to permit third-party app stores and allow them to be set as defaults. The bill directly challenges Apple's walled garden approach and Google's Play Store dominance by requiring both companies to allow developers to use alternative payment systems, bypassing the platforms' commission structures.
It would also mandate equal access to development tools and interfaces without discrimination, while giving users the ability to remove pre-installed apps. Violations would trigger FTC enforcement with penalties up to $1 million per infraction. The legislation mirrors recent European Union regulations that have already forced Apple to permit third-party app stores and allow users to change default apps.
It would also mandate equal access to development tools and interfaces without discrimination, while giving users the ability to remove pre-installed apps. Violations would trigger FTC enforcement with penalties up to $1 million per infraction. The legislation mirrors recent European Union regulations that have already forced Apple to permit third-party app stores and allow users to change default apps.
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Nonsense, this is foreign made legislation eating U.S. market-share. If la Presidenta ever gets wind of this, he'll put tariffs on foreign legislation to build up American legislation producers.....errrr.....unless he gets paid off, he's above accepting a bit-o-graft in the same way a brick is above the Sargasso Sea (Douglas Adams).
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So, I agree that Congress is largely made up of idiots. But how does this law fit that narrative? This seems like a good thing to me, for a change.
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Agreed. The current app stores are like a safety net or training wheels. But forcing every app developer to use their tools and agree to their commissions is like GM requiring all of their cars to only fill up at Exxon Mobil gas stations.
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You know I can buy a a hydrogen fuel cell car. There are only two stations in San Diego to fill up at though. Knowing this, I choose not to but it's still an option. Should the government ban this because of lack of infrastructure or should we let consumers do their own research and make up their own minds?
I know I was looking at a brand-new, extreme fancy hydrogen car. $10k. Of course, the first thing I did was look up where to get fuel and how much that fuel cost, as well as do the basic math on efficienc
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No, you should have a choice to be in a walled garden or not on any device. Now if you like Apple's garden, that's fine. Don't install any other app store. I expect that's the route the vast majority would go. But there's no reason to tie hardware choice to the store choice. And allowing them to do so is anti-competitive, dangerous to the market for software makers (Apple has many time banned apps because they decided they wanted to make a similar app), and causes increased prices for consumers (there's
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Your question doesn't fit, and here's why:
There is nothing about your hydrogen vehicle preventing someone from opening a third (, fourth, etc.) hydrogen distribution station, and you taking your hydrogen-powered vehicle there.
That is not the same case with Apple's app store. If you buy an iPhone, you are compelled to shop Apple's company store. I'm honestly surprised they don't make you buy Apple Scrip to pay for purchases.
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Stopped clock. Sometimes even idiots do things that make sense.
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As soon as I can tell whether there is a trail of bread crumbs into his pocket, then I'll tell you whether he will support this legislation.
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Trump will scribble that sharpie on anything you put down if you say it's the greatest piece of legislation ever and he's a genius for coming up with it.
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Fucking up the lives of Americans every day.
Yes yes, we already know you are anti-choice in general. No need to signal your lack of virtue, we are already aware that you have none.
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In pro choice. If you don't want the walled garden, choose android. If you want it, choose Apple.
I'm also pro choice for companies. If you want to build a system with a "walled garden", do so. If you don't, then don't.
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How does it "fuck up" the lives of Americans to be given a choice of where you buy apps?
Did it "fuck up" your life when you had to stop going to retail stores to buy software, and could just buy and download over the Internet?
Did Steam "fuck up" your life when Valve launched it 20 years ago?
If you don't want to use an alternative store, don't. That's still an option.
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If you don't want to use an alternative store, don't. That's still an option.
If you don't want to use a device with only one App Store, don't. There's still that option.
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Give it time. The dickheads in congress will eventually decree that third party app stores be pre-installed on the devices shipped by Apple.
Probably along with 3rd party browsers, third party payment apps, third party shitware of any kind, provided their lobbyists make suitable donations to Congress critters.
It's already pretty easy to side load apps (Score:3)
The main problem with Google is to sideload an app you have to change a setting with a scary name and that's going to scare off a lot of people, which of course is by design.
Apple is a whole ano
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No, it's not easy to side load apps, unless you're a nerd. Regular people have no idea how to do it. And if they do figure it out, they have to wade through multiple scary security warning popups, that are really no different than what you experience if you try to cancel your streaming service subscription. "Are you REALLY sure you want to do this? But wait! This could be harmful!" Yeah right, it could cost Google revenue, that's the real reason for the scary messages.
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Download, open when prompted.
If it's the first time, you get a "scary warning" telling you exactly how to enable installation of third party applications with a helpful link to the relevant part of "Settings".
Try again (assuming you don't have a Downloads app or want to wade through the file manager)
Are you sure you want to install? You say yes.
Done.
It's hard only if you find being asked questions hard, in which case how the fuck did you set up the phone in the first place, log into Facebook, or add people
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You have a funny idea of "simple." Your sequence involves at least half a dozen taps, and a couple of decisions that must be made, "Should I allow this? How do I decide?" For you, a technical person, it's "easy." For a typical facebook user, not so much.
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What a load of horseshit.
The typical facebook user went through far more than that just to log into facebook.
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No, it's not easy to side load apps, unless you're a nerd. Regular people have no idea how to do it.
Yes, it's super hard to deal with the box that comes up saying 3rd party sources are disallowed by current settings, and the helpful button that takes you exactly to the switch to change it.
It's literally two taps, and swipe back.
Re:It's already pretty easy to side load apps (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is a whole another kettle of fish. Not quite as terrible as Google but not great.
They're much worse than Google. The lengths Apple has gone to fuck over customers and developers, and then worse, try to cover it up and lie about it, is absurd. It's no wonder that, even though Google's ecosystem is far more open, they got hit the hardest: Apple's been hiding shit AND lying about it in court, probably to lawmakers as well.
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Good thing no one is forced to buy Apple. We have choices. For now.
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There is no setting with a scary name.
You download the app to the download folder, or move it there from your computer, and install it with the android file explorer.
Re:A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean, kind of like how you can install software on Windows and Linux from any old random website? Where's the rage about that?
Do you really buy Google's and Apple's marketing that says they lock down the app stores to protect users? Really? No, they lock them down for one reason only: greed.
I think this law seems like a *good* idea.
Re: A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:2)
You miss my point: if the user can change app stores, that is a problem. I do not want any path to turning off that security to exist on the phone I buy. Android can be wide open. Please do not inflict the same security bug on iPhone.
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You miss my point
You don't have a point.
if the user can change app stores, that is a problem.
You are the user.
If you can't not change app stores, you are the problem.
I do not want any path to turning off that security to exist on the phone I buy.
Learn to control yourself sufficiently that you do not enable options you do not want to enable instead of needing someone else to make decisions for you because you are incompetent.
Android can be wide open. Please do not inflict the same security bug on iPhone.
Nobody will do that to you. Don't do it to yourself: Don't turn on the option when it becomes available to you despite you wanting to be treaded harder.
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Please, daddy Apple, limit my choices! Protect me from myself!
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Then as the owner of those phones you should stick to the app store you trust. But don't force everyone to do the same.
This goes a lot farther than that; and you know it!
This is Government-Mandated Enshittification of Apple's entire Ecosystem!
And no, I am not being the least bit melodramatic. Apple has lost control of it's entire Mobile Platform, and Apple Users have permanently lost the ability to Install any old App without any reasonable Fear that it will be busily stealing keystrokes, private data or anything else. Gone!
They might as well Mandate that all iPhones Must have Android Factory-Installed. If they pass this Dr
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Apple can always start an Apple Certified App(TM) program, that puts a little gold ACA(TM) seal on an app in the app store. Heck, they can even have an optional warning that pops up (enabled by default, of course) that warns you if you are about to install a non-certified app. Even if downloaded through a third party app store, if the binary isn't signed by an Apple-trusted cert, the phone could be configured to warn you and optionally block it. What you are paying for is really the oversight and assuran
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Yes, I buy it. And I pay the premium for the service. I do not want many members of my family to have the ability to load outside the ecosystem because bad actors will convince them to do so. I got every older member of my family an iPhone after too many Android incidents. Heck, I do not want to have to vet everything constantly. Why would I want an unvetted catalog of apps? Android provides that for those who want it. Please do not undermine the rest of us.
This!
People who want ultimate Freedumb can have Android. The choice of hardware far exceeds anything Apple will ever offer; there are actually many more Classes of Apps allowed; alternate App Stores, Sideloading; the works!
So why can't CONSUMERS Vote With Their Feet? Why?
Has anyone asked them what they want?
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Has anyone asked them what they want?
Why would I ask people who know nothing about anything what they want? There is sufficient demand for third party app stores on iOS that some people actually go to the effort of jailbreaking their devices so that they can use them. Why should the users who don't know anything prevent those people from conveniently using third party app stores on their own devices?
Re: A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:4, Insightful)
Android sideloading doesn't count as freedom to use whatever app store you want. Amazon tried this with their streaming app, for a while they asked users to side-load. It didn't work because Android puts up such scary warnings--not just when you installed the app store, but when you installed every single app in it--that their "unauthorized" app store on Android failed.
The problem with your argument is that Apple has created not only a walled garden for apps, but they have erected barriers to people who want to switch to Android. To move to Android, you have to leave behind *everything* in the Apple ecosystem, and this is not a viable option for most people who have everything from photos to iMessage histories in their iCloud accounts. It's not like they can just "switch to Android" so they can have freedom. Apple has seen to that.
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And I pay the premium for the service. I do not want many members of my family to have the ability to load outside the ecosystem because bad actors will convince them to do so. I got every older member of my family an iPhone after too many Android incidents. Heck, I do not want to have to vet everything constantly. Why would I want an unvetted catalog of apps?
There is a straightforward technical solution to your problem that does NOT involve anti-competitive monopoly app stores.
Your approach is similar to those people who dislike IPv6 because of NAT. If you want NAT in IPv6 for some reason, there is a straightforward technical solution to getting it there.
Re: A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:2)
What is that solution? I do not know of one. Either the phone can use alternate app stores or it cannot. If it is an option then it can be toggled, and that is a problem for many of us.
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I'm pretty sure your older family members have not been side-loading apps on their Android phones. If they are anything like most older people, they have no idea how to even install an app from the Play Store, much less side-load! Let's not pretend that the freedom to install what you want, is the real issue here.
You talk as if having options, is undermining your little security bubble. No one is forcing your family members to use alternate app stores. Feel free to stick with the App Store if you want to. J
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You mean, kind of like how you can install software on Windows and Linux from any old random website? Where's the rage about that?
While I agree about the openness there's a few differences worth noting. Windows is not a 2FA authenticator for critical websites. Windows does not transfer money out of my bank account when asked to and has no apps that approve credit card purchases. Windows is not always on and always carried on me and doesn't have a high accuracy location profile of me.
No, they lock them down for one reason only: greed.
There's more than one reason. Greed definitely, but you can see them objectively spend real amounts of money on anti-malware in their ecosystems. One argu
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Windows is not a 2FA authenticator for critical websites.
Neither is iOS or Android. The 2FA is provided by apps, not the OS. Making the argument from the other end, I get MFA codes in email which I receive on my desktop all the time.
Windows does not transfer money out of my bank account when asked to
Neither does iOS or Android. Apps on them do that. But again, from the other end, I can make bank transfers through a website I access from my desktop.
Windows is not always on and always carried on me and doesn't have a high accuracy location profile of me.
So don't give every app the rights to location services. Both iOS and Android let you control that.
you can see them objectively spend real amounts of money on anti-malware in their ecosystems. One argument doesn't invalidate the other.
Both the Play Store and the App Store have distributed malware time and again. They ar
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Windows is not a 2FA authenticator for critical websites.
Neither is iOS or Android. The 2FA is provided by apps, not the OS. Making the argument from the other end, I get MFA codes in email which I receive on my desktop all the time.
Your Apple ID or Google account absolutely are used as 2nd factors by many sites and services. This often takes the form of a push notification that operates through the phone's built in system account (either Apple ID or Google Account). These notifications cannot be received on a Windows machine. I believe for Apple a Mac will do, but I don't think any old Android device works for Google, it must be a phone.
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No, your AppleID and GoogleID only serve this purpose if you're stupid enough to allow it to. And they can (and do) do the same thing on desktops. And yes, my windows machine can and does receive all the notifications my Android phone does. You're just making shit up.
The only difference between a phone and a computer is the phone has a cellular radio in it. And that's not even 100%- an Android tablet may not have a cellular radio, and I've had laptops that did.
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I agreed with this sentiment until Apple/Google/etc. started complying with government laws and removing apps from the stores. I appreciate that these companies must follow laws or they will be shut down.
If an app-store ends up being nothing other than a front end to side-load apps that big brother doesn't want me to have, then I'll take my chances with it.
Re:A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:5, Insightful)
But a mandate for support of third party app stores on all platforms is insane.
This is, and always was, a bullshit argument. This was never about safety, security, privacy, etc. At least, in the case of Apple, we know that every time they were in court they talked up a storm about all of that, but in their own internal discussions, this never factored into their decisions. As the judge noted, whenever Apple had different options available, at every last turn, the one they always picked was the one that would give them the most control and cause the maximum damage to fuck over users and developers.
And you know what's even more damning? That wasn't the only judge who made this finding. Another judge who was appointed to oversee Apple's disclosure process noted how the time requirements kept expanding as apple mysteriously kept finding new documents. It reached a point where it became obvious that the entire reason they were doing this was to just delay the whole thing, which is illegal. The judge called them on it and refused to extend their deadline. And then guess what? Apple started tagging all of these disclosure documents that in any way shape or form involved a legal team, as attorney client privilege even when they wouldn't even begin to qualify. The judge called out a case where their legal team was suggesting changes to Apple's scare screen, citing that as another example of apple being outright dishonest.
Not only is that halo you're trying to put over Tim Cook's head nothing but a gold painted turd, Apple was making an active effort to cover up the fact that they were trying to do the most they could to fuck over customers and developers.
The last week has shown how Apple is a company with zero integrity. And here's your pathetic ass trying to pretend that these are all white lies and the company is just soooo god damn benevolent.
Re: A new Golden Age of Malware (Score:2)
Yet I should be able to buy an iPhone and put my own software on it. It's a piece of hardware, just sell me the hardware please, with a three-year warranty on the hardware only.
Mandatory tying of transactions on hardware and software is hard to defend morally. You can try though, maybe there is some strong argument that I haven't thought of. Security isn't one such argument: it's not about opposing the sale of both the software and the hardware, but about making it mandatory (or unfair in terms of cost) to
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Yeah I'm sure seniors will be rushing to install Epic gamestore or another appstore... they are getting scammed just fine through safari browser or the appstore.
more open rules like allow any web browser engine (Score:2)
more open rules like allow any web browser engine
allow emulators that can load roms from file system.
allow full dosbox
allow remote game play apps that does not need each game to be oked one by one.
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> But a mandate for support of third party app stores on all platforms is insane. The more wide spread this becomes, the greater the opportunity for malware creators to target the vast numbers of people who can't manage computer security themselves
I'm struggling to understand the leap here.
In order for this to happen, people would have to actively install the poorly maintained store and actively install the malware from that store. That's quite a few jumps for people who do not understand enough about co
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But a mandate for support of third party app stores on all platforms is insane. The more wide spread this becomes, the greater the opportunity for malware creators to target the vast numbers of people who can't manage computer security themselves
Current app stores are overflowing with redundant low quality crap most of which exists to exfiltrate data thanks to the everything must be free race to the bottom incentive structure instilled by app stores.
With competition it is possible to create app stores that are for example known for their reputation of meeting vigorous quality and security standards or catering to specific types of software. For example an app store for businesses with only business software vetted to a required standard.
The curren
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So you think the marketplace that already works on PC / Linux / Mac is somehow going to be a problem on iOS and Android, because people are going to somehow enable fly-by-night shady shitshow app stores to install malware en masse?
As you said, this already exists on Android other than defaulting to something besides Google Play, and that hasn't happened. So what else you got besides nanny state protections against conditions that never existed?
So just maybe (Score:2)
So just maybe the Amazon App store won't be ending after all
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So just maybe the Amazon App store won't be ending after all
Amazon and Roku would both be forced to open up their platforms. Same with Nintendo, in all likelihood. But Xbox, Playstation, and Samsung likely dodge the bullet (though the last of the three already makes third-party app stores possible).
This number seems arbitrary. A more reasonable number is 1. If you build a device platform that sells apps created by third parties and someone else wants to create a third-party app store for it, you should be required to make that possible. Period. No exceptions.
3 party (Score:2)
But Xbox, Playstation, and Samsung likely dodge the bullet (though the last of the three already makes third-party app stores possible).
- Samsung: you're probably referring to the fact that 3rd party stores on Android-based devices are a mere sideload away?
- Xbox: You're alluding to the developer program, where it's easy to just switch a console into dev mode and upload the stuff you wanted?
- Sony Playstation: That I don't see what you're alluding to. Did Sony re-introduce OtherOS onto the PS5 or something?
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So just maybe the Amazon App store won't be ending after all
Amazon and Roku would both be forced to open up their platforms. Same with Nintendo, in all likelihood. But Xbox, Playstation, and Samsung likely dodge the bullet (though the last of the three already makes third-party app stores possible).
This number seems arbitrary. A more reasonable number is 1. If you build a device platform that sells apps created by third parties and someone else wants to create a third-party app store for it, you should be required to make that possible. Period. No exceptions.
What then, is a "Platform"?
Be careful what you wish for. . .
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I forced your mom to open up. Nothing good happened.
You can't blame your faulty dick on his mother. I mean, that was probably the first time it had been anywhere NEAR a pussy. Since it didn't look like your hand, it just didn't know what to do. Not his mom's fault.
Excitement inbound ! (Score:1)
It's going to be great when you elderly parent clicks on some offer that replaces all the native apps on their phone with some AI enhanced data scraper that violates their privacy and breaks their routine.
Can't wait for that.
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It's going to be great when you elderly parent clicks on some offer that replaces all the native apps on their phone with some AI enhanced data scraper
If they have the mental capacity of a child, and you are their guardian or conservator, then you owe it to them to set up a managed account on their phone.
If they are competent, they should be able to avoid that. If not, then you should care for them before you claim you care about them.
What's next? (Score:2)
Installing non-IOS OS on Apple hardware?
Put a halt to Apple's planned obscelence (Score:2)
Some apps run perfectly fine on an iPhone5 until Apple decides that all apps must support at least iOS67
Exciting new feature for the iPhone19 (Score:2)
I'll bet my iPhone18ProMaxUltra just isn't compatible enough.
FTC ENFORCEMENT??? (Score:1)
> The bill would trigger FTC enforcement?
Um. You shoul probably read the news. The Trupf Administration has FIRED the FTC arms that
investigat, enforce, and levy fines.
This is a performtaive bill. We expec these from Reublicsn. The are not worried about midterms.
Thansk, Slashdot. I'd missed Weekend-Slashdot so it's nice to see your enshitification mid week.
E
Microsoft is fucked. (Score:1)
And Ford, and GM, and the VW group..
What about airlines that use iPad in place of flightbooks? Surely the FAA and EASA aren't going to permit unofficial flight apps from Joe's App Store and Feed Emporium to be used.
How are phones different? (Score:2)
How are phones different to game consoles, smart TVs, set-top boxes and other hardware that have stores where you can download things and where everything you can download and run is controlled by the manufacturer?
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How are phones different to game consoles, smart TVs, set-top boxes and other hardware that have stores where you can download things and where everything you can download and run is controlled by the manufacturer?
What, is it remedial student day already? Why don't you try reading the text of the bill, so you can find out that the word "phone" doesn't appear in it?
SEC. 6. DEFINITIONS.10 .â"The term ââappâ(TM)â(TM) means a software12 .â"The term ââapp storeâ(TM)â(TM) means17
In this Act:11
(1) APP
application or electronic service that may be run or13
directed by a user on a computer, a mobile device,14
or any other general purpose consumer computing15
device.16
(2) APP STORE
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Anyway, this bill would apply to basically anything as written. Phones, game consoles, smart TVs, automotive infotainment systems... expect at minimum that last one to get a carve-out before this thing dies anyway.
No game console will reach 100M installed base in the US, which is required for the law to kick in. The most wildly successful console ever, the PS2, sold only ~160M units, world-wide, and that's when Sony's market dominance was much more secure. Also, the PS2 was manufactured and sold for an unprecedented 13 years, from 2000-'13. That's unlikely to be repeated with modern console cycles being more like 5-7 years, although the switch is a modern outlier since it's likely to go for 9+.
If this does ever be
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Seriously, you're on Slashdot. You should know this obvious solution.
What about consoles? Set top boxes? Fridges? (Score:2)
Aren't software developers going to start asking why this won't be the case on other closed systems?
At the same time now people might have to worry about malware, different payment methods and satisfaction policies, stores that just shut down and disappear with no support left for software people paid for, removing the convenience and changing expectations of the experience people will have with these devices.
It seems like a can of worms and I wonder what will happen.
I think the option would be nice... (Score:2)
but a mandate to set that as default seems silly. Plus, android users already have multi-apps stores installed (or my samsung does anyway). So this really comes down to Apple.
There is definitely two sides to this. Apple's walled garden may actual help keep users safer from malware (may!). Also, if users buy an iphone, they know what they are buying. That's their choice. It's there money to spend. If they want multi-app stores, use android.
Oh well, this doesn't directly affect me either way and I suppose 99%
Game Consoles (Score:2)