EU Pushes Apple To Make iPhones More Compatible With Rival Devices (theverge.com) 98
The European Union has issued draft recommendations requiring Apple to make its iOS and iPadOS operating systems more compatible with competitors' devices, setting up a clash over privacy concerns. The proposals would allow third-party smartwatches and headsets to interact more seamlessly with iPhones.
Apple has responded [PDF] with warnings about security risks, particularly citing Meta's requests for access to Apple's technology. The Commission seeks industry feedback by January 2025, with final measures expected by March. Non-compliance could trigger EU fines up to 10% of Apple's global annual sales.
Apple has responded [PDF] with warnings about security risks, particularly citing Meta's requests for access to Apple's technology. The Commission seeks industry feedback by January 2025, with final measures expected by March. Non-compliance could trigger EU fines up to 10% of Apple's global annual sales.
Re:They don't HAVE TO sell in Europe (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't an EU problem, it's a lobbyist problem. Namely, why 2 US companies are weaponizing the European consumer advocacy system to fight battles that should surely be fought on home soil.
i.e. If Facebook have a legitimate argument then why is it that EU consumers would enjoy anti-monopolist protections but the American consumer wouldn't?
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Because the US system was originally designed around personal responsibility and personal choice.
So abortions are ok then? How about me taking some edibles after a day at work?
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Yes to both.
I already said our recent laws are straying from our founding principles.
There's plenty more than two examples of that, neither of which invalidate my point.
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So murdering humans is ok then?
Depends on who you ask. If you murder an unarmed black human it apparently makes you a hero to some, and gets you into the box to watch a sportsball game with the president-elect.
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And apparently if you murder a health insurance company ceo, it makes you a hero to other people.
Re: They don't HAVE TO sell in Europe (Score:2)
Why is that a surprise? That guy premeditatedly caused the deaths of thousands for personal gain.
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i.e. If Facebook have a legitimate argument then why is it that EU consumers would enjoy anti-monopolist protections but the American consumer wouldn't?
For the same reason its easier to convince people in Europe that not everyone needs to own guns, or that driving a small car is a smart thing. The local context matters, specifically existing legal system built around consumer protection in Europe which America doesn't enjoy. Sorry, American Consumers don't enjoy, their businesses enjoy it very much.
The point here is to use the laws to their advantage in a place they can be leveraged. If they have no leverage there's no point starting, and therefore you won
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> 2 US companies
Apple legally became an Irish company several years ago.
They maintain a round office in Silicon Valley.
Re: They don't HAVE TO sell in Europe (Score:2)
What are you smoking? This is easily verifiably false. The location of incorporation for Apple is California. Like any large international company, they have regional offices. The Irish subsidiary has existed for over 40 years.
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Apple decided to make themselves a European corporation (based in Ireland) in order to avoid paying taxes to the USA on EU sales revenue. In doing so, they agreed to follow EU laws.
If they did not want to play by the EU rules, they could have stayed just a US corporation (and paid the US taxes) and relied on the US trade agreements to protect their ability to sell their products to EU customers. But that would reduce their profits.
Apple made a choice. Apple can deal with the consequences.
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Pro-Apple might also be anti-people. Especially when Apple's goals are to diminish competition and choices. Apple does not do things to make them better, Apple does things to make more money.
Prove it, or STFU.
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How the fuck is helping their competitors for free pro-people? Oh, I get it, you are one of those "I actually really want what Apple is making, but I'd rather pay somebody else for it" people
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Has the EU decided to go into the phone business? (Score:2, Insightful)
It just feels to me like the EU has decided to take the power to design devices away from device makers.
At what point will the EU require Apple to create an Android compatibility layer?
Re:Has the EU decided to go into the phone busines (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you know why your Android phone has a micro usb connector today? The EU forced companies to standardize on a connector. Wasn't it so great before when you had to throw away your old charger because it didn't fit your new device?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Micro usb in 2009.
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Micro usb in ...
" ... compliance was voluntary ... "
(Apple didn't join and their devices never used micro USB.)
"... new smartphones to use USB-C ... "
(A 2022 directive forces all devices to use the USB Power Delivery Standard.)
Did you read the article you cited?
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Micro usb in ...
" ... compliance was voluntary ... "
(Apple didn't join and their devices never used micro USB.)
"... new smartphones to use USB-C ... "
(A 2022 directive forces all devices to use the USB Power Delivery Standard.)
Did you read the article you cited?
That's what drove Apple to design Lightning. They just couldn't be abide that most-shitty of Connectors, microUSB.
And USB-C wasn't even Ratified when Lightning was released. In fact, Apple's Lightning Connector Design is the very reason the USB-C connector is rotation-agnostic.
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Every phone I've ever bought came with a charger so I don't see what the whining is all about. Apple people, much like Microsoft people, like the abuse. If they didn't enjoy the way these things worked, they would change their behaviors and stop giving money to these companies.
They want to be told what applications they can use. They want to be in their walled gardens. They want their blue check boxes to make them feel special. So let them have what they want. To be apple fan victims..eer, consumers.
Re: Has the EU decided to go into the phone busine (Score:2)
Re: Has the EU decided to go into the phone busine (Score:4, Funny)
You also need an iPhone cause hot chicks do not date Android.
That's a feature, not a bug. It's a filter to keep away shallow, problematic women.
Re: Has the EU decided to go into the phone busin (Score:2)
Re:Has the EU decided to go into the phone busines (Score:4, Insightful)
Every phone I've ever bought came with a charger so I don't see what the whining is all about
Way to go not realising what the fundamental problem was there buddy.
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My latest phone had no charger. Luckily I still had a lightning charger. But the phone before it had the lightning charger, and it sucked. Now I've got lots of adapters and it's hit or miss as to which one works that day or not. Whereas I never one had a problem with micro-usb adapters. So far, I've got nothing needing USB-C, and I'm holding off on that because it will be a hundred dollars or more to buy all the replacement cables (charger at home, at work, in the car, at the parent's place, in the suitcase in case I forget while traveling, etc). My guess based upon experience is that once I do get a device needing USB-C that I'll be told a week later that USB-C is obsolete.
You're a moron.
You buy a bag of Lightning to USB-C Adapters for under $10, and keep a couple around for when you need them. Over the course of about 5 years or so, you can either leave the little adapters on (they tend to "click" into place pretty firmly), and then replace the Lightning cables slowly, over time.
It's not a fucking crisis. Here's a lifetime supply of Lightning to USB Adapters for $7.59 on Amazon:
https://a.co/d/dBSu9ca [a.co]
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I have adapters for the lightning port, and more than half of them don't work very well, even for plain charging.
Stop buying shitty adapters; or clean the Ports.
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I don't see what the whining is all about.
Fortunately, people who matter do understand the issue.
"If they didn't enjoy the way these things worked, (Score:1)
The market isn't efficient enough for such granular choice. But how can I show this more clearly with 2 dominant app stores?
The network effect on capitalism needs some sort of counterbalance.
I agree that the EU regulation approach isn't good enough.
I also agree that the Chinese approach is also not good enough.
But the USA needs something to counterbalance the network effect of capitalism. You can reject both the EU and China approach, but I'll only accept a valid argument if it comes with an alternative.
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100 years from now, with the advent of all these amazing technologies and improvements which make life easier, people will still be using a 100-year-old standard because the EU mandated it.
Rather than mandating a requirement that any adapter that a phone device maker uses must be supported for a minimum period of time after it is first introduced.
In other words, like catalytic converters, the EU has mandated the technology used to achieve a result rather than the desired result. And in mandating this result
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n mandating this result we have about a dozen different USB-C standards that are all subtly incompatible
Which one won't charge your phone?
Oh, they all will? You're just spreading bullshit? Figures.
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USB C is widely misunderstood, but to be fair there was no good solution.
Making every power supply offer every voltage and 240W is impractical. The sensible option is the one they took. The power supply tells the device what it has available, and the device selects the best option for its needs. There is a baseline of 5V 750mA, and due to the nature of switching voltage regulators most devices can take higher voltages and more current.
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Rather than mandating a requirement that any adapter that a phone device maker uses must be supported for a minimum period of time after it is first introduced.
That wouldn't help much, you are getting locked to a manufacturer. If you change brands, you have to throw away the old charger. Standardization is better, and the standard will change, won't last 100 years... it already changed once, from microUSB to USB-C.
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Yes, but microUSB was not a legally established standard.
Recall it took over 100 years for the US to repeal a "temporary" tax originally designed to help pay for the Spanish-American War.
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Great revisionism, and total propaganda. To be accurate, it's a USB-C connector.
Firstly, Android-based equipment quickly adopted USB-C when the revised standard allowed high-wattage consumption. Secondly, the law was mandated after the USB-C revised standard was released, to stop Apple changing its cables and chargers to another over-priced, trademarked, and short-lived, connector.
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Do you know why your Android phone has a micro usb connector today?
Because it was the logical progression from the previous USB standard that Android used?
I think you meant your comment to be about Apple devices, not Android.
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Do you know why your Android phone has a micro usb connector today? The EU forced companies to standardize on a connector. Wasn't it so great before when you had to throw away your old charger because it didn't fit your new device?
I live in the UK... which follows the same standards as the EU... None of my Android phones have had a MicroUSB connector since I moved here, last one was back in 2013, my Nexus 5X was the first phone I had with USB-C.
I digress and get what you're saying. The brilliance of EU standards is that no matter what brand I get next, my current USB C charger will work with it.
I'm old enough to remember when everything came with a different power connector, hell not everything came with a standard RCA/Coax vid
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Except this is not a power plug. It's a data port that supplies power.
And while power doesn't change (much; there is a protocol where the device plugged in negotiates for amperage), the data port part of things have radically changed over time.
Re:Has the EU decided to go into the phone busines (Score:5, Informative)
At what point will the EU require Apple to create an Android compatibility layer?
At no point. The EU doesn't care about compatibility on a device specific level. They care about compatibility of APIs and protocols on an ecosystem level. Specifically they care about how Apple has a history (and a present) of locking down common features that should work on a protocol level artificially to their own devices. You know, kind of like how they provide NFC hardware in their phone, but keep the actual good capabilities of the hardware locked to themselves.
Read the complaints, there's no design issue here, there's a lockdown issue. Garmin supports the same notification protocol as the apple watch but because it doesn't boot up with a logo of a fruit on it it can't quick reply to messages. That's on Apple. At least the fact that Apple refuses to support common audio codecs over bluetooth has a licensing cost that could help justify the decision. But there's no reason why banking apps can't access the NFC reader on the iPhone like they do on any other device other than Apple attempting to wall off the ability to pay with the iPhone to their own app. You can make that kind of move as a small player, unfortunately antitrust laws (which the DMA can be considered as one) treat companies with immense power differently from those without any.
I actively support the EU kicking any company that doesn't openly support fundamental features simply because of the name on the device, in the balls.
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Especially when my local rail operator's app can access the NFC reader which allows me to load train tickets onto my travel card, and check which tickets I have on it.
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At what point will the EU require Apple to create an Android compatibility layer?
At no point. The EU doesn't care about compatibility on a device specific level. They care about compatibility of APIs and protocols on an ecosystem level. Specifically they care about how Apple has a history (and a present) of locking down common features that should work on a protocol level artificially to their own devices. You know, kind of like how they provide NFC hardware in their phone, but keep the actual good capabilities of the hardware locked to themselves.
Read the complaints, there's no design issue here, there's a lockdown issue. Garmin supports the same notification protocol as the apple watch but because it doesn't boot up with a logo of a fruit on it it can't quick reply to messages. That's on Apple. At least the fact that Apple refuses to support common audio codecs over bluetooth has a licensing cost that could help justify the decision. But there's no reason why banking apps can't access the NFC reader on the iPhone like they do on any other device other than Apple attempting to wall off the ability to pay with the iPhone to their own app. You can make that kind of move as a small player, unfortunately antitrust laws (which the DMA can be considered as one) treat companies with immense power differently from those without any.
I actively support the EU kicking any company that doesn't openly support fundamental features simply because of the name on the device, in the balls.
Although limited third-party access to NFC hardware in their Devices has been available for several years, Apple recently reversed its stance on third-party NFC Apps:
https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/14... [9to5mac.com]
https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/14... [9to5mac.com]
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Apple recently reversed its stance on third-party NFC Apps
Yes they did. You should ask them why. I'll give you a hint: it starts with the letter E and ends with the letter U.
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Apple recently reversed its stance on third-party NFC Apps
Yes they did. You should ask them why. I'll give you a hint: it starts with the letter E and ends with the letter U.
That for sure made them get off their ass and make it happen.
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It just feels to me like the EU has decided to take the power to design devices away from device makers.
At what point will the EU require Apple to create an Android compatibility layer?
The EU is about standardisation and it is doing nothing here that it wasn't created to do. I don't really see what is to be gained by every manufacturer having devices with their own proprietary connectors, complete with cables and chargers that cost four times more than they need to, software that locks users into a device manufacturer's proprietary cloud services to keep them from migrating to some other brand, devices and software that limit the usability of third-party devices like smartwatches, earbud
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I don't think they would require Apple to create one, but the side-loading rules require Apple to allow other people to write them and let people install them.
I see no technical reason why you couldn't side-load an IOS compatibility layer on Android, but such a thing doesn't exist.
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It just feels to me like the EU has decided to take the power to design devices away from device makers.
At what point will the EU require Apple to create an Android compatibility layer?
At this rate, about 2026.
The Commission has lost the plot (Score:2)
And seems unable to understand the basic principle that Apple's commercial incentive to sell more devices aligns its privacy incentives with those of end users, while Meta's and other's incentives are anti-consumer. This is such a basic and obvious point, and it beggars belief that the EC is unable to get it, so much so, that it feels like they must have been suborned.
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Apple has a direct cash incentive to not do things consumers don’t want it to do. They will stop buying its products. This is something it has in common with, say, Samsung. By contrast, Meta et al are paid nothing by consumers, and consequently lack that incentive. They do, however, make basically all their money by mediating access to data about the people on whom they have data — infamously including people who don’t even have a Meta account (“shadow” profiles). If you can
Before you start bickering about Europe ... (Score:4, Insightful)
... how do you like that your new iPhone has a USB-C port? Nice, isn't it?
You're welcome.
- Your beloved EU-regulators
Sometimes actually improving things (TM)
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You mean it was YOUR fault I can't use the charger that came with my last i-crap and now need to buy this whole new USB-C charger thing just to use my new i-crap? How many chargers did I need anyway?
I'm going Android! Screw crapple! /s As if any Apple victim would ever do this. They all have Stockholm syndrome.
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And when something better and more advanced comes along nope, we can't have it. Hey, europedonazischeisse, remember where you get your gas.
Why wouldn't you get to have it? The law the EU passed specifically requires the standard from a technology point of view to be reviewed every 5 years. Literally they passed a law that forces the government to see if they can provide you something advanced.
Please get a clue.
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Impossible. Anti-government crackpots actively stay misinformed.
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Not really, because I now have to invest in all new accessories for my new iPhone, because I have Lightning cables and other devices that now have to be replaced with USB-C equivalents.
And some devices are really expensive that you're forcing me to replace.
And all that e-waste of stuff I can no longer use because my new phone doesn't support them, from speakers and docks and other plug in accessories.
Sure, it's compatible with other U
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I love the compatibility, but I hate the plugs and sockets. Half of my cables don't work reliably anymore and one of the two USB-C ports in my Macbook Air M1 isn't usable anymore.
With Lightning the only problem ever was lint in the sockets but the plugs and the sockets themselves were pretty much bulletproof.
And honestly I utterly hate the fact that we're now stuck with this by the type of socket and plug being mandated by a fucking government. But it could have been worse, if this would have happened just
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You're absolutely correct and the EU government should have directly addressed the problem: Say a $20 deposit on every charger and cable to ensure you hand them in for recycling.
Yeah, it's not a problem when capitalism fucks-up.
Translation: iShiny make you feel good, responsible consumerism, not so much.
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You're absolutely correct and the EU government should have directly addressed the problem: Say a $20 deposit on every charger and cable to ensure you hand them in for recycling.
I'm surprised they haven't done that since some % of users will simply keep or trash them anyway and thus generate revenue for the government, or the manufacturer if they are the ones who handle the deposit.
OTOH, it would also offer an arbitrage opportunity because now all those obsolete chargers and cables outside the EU would be worth 20 Euros if returned there. It's similar to when 2 states nave a different bottle deposit charges, if you are near the border you can arbitrage the difference by buying in
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I'd be totally OK with a mandatory deposit on cables etc.
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With Lightning the only problem ever was lint in the sockets but the plugs and the sockets themselves were pretty much bulletproof.
You've got to be kidding. Just about every lighting cable I've seen has a corroding pin. Official Apple cables are notoriously unreliable and prone to fraying (there are well-known design flaws). It's why I use a leave-in magnetic adapter to charge my wife's company-supplied iPhone.
if this would have happened just a bit earlier, it would have been Micro-USB we would be stuck with forever.
Nonsense. It did happen earlier [wikipedia.org] and it was Micro-USB.
So, no. I'm not really a friend of all these regulations
As you've so clearly demonstrated, you don't even understand these regulations.
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Ironically I've just found out that replacing the daughter board with the USB-C sockets in my Macbook is quite easy and the board costs just $25, which is dirt cheap when it comes to Apple computer parts. It's almost as if Apple knew that this sucks...
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So, I have to... (Score:2)
So let's say I'm a car manufacturer, and I decide it is best, safest, most useful for my customers to have wheels that use (say) 6 lug nuts instead of 5. But then there's an outside company that makes novelty wheels that are designed to use 4 lug nuts...so I'm not allowed to innovate or change my design to meet the needs of my customers because some external company wants to be
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The EU isn't as dumb as you are. They take expert advice and won't unreasonably compromise safety for this.
The rebuttal to Apple is simply that Android devices manage to do this securely, and in fact are less prone to getting hacked than iPhones (at least for high end devices e.g. Pixel).
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The EU isn't as dumb as you are. They take expert advice and won't unreasonably compromise safety for this.
The rebuttal to Apple is simply that Android devices manage to do this securely, and in fact are less prone to getting hacked than iPhones (at least for high end devices e.g. Pixel).
This...
Also the EU doesn't mandate a specific wheel bolt pattern or number... Also if he knew anything about cars, most use bolts instead of nuts as it's both cheaper and safer. Bolts wear out, if they're attached to you wheel hub that's your entire hub that needs replacing, compared to 10-20 Euros/Dollars/Pounds worth of bolts.
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make my product work less effectively and less safely so you can sell an accessory that works more easily with my product? Got it.
Sure. If you turn off your brain and just drink whatever marketing Koolaid Apple offers you then you may come to that conclusion. On the flip side I you gave this topic even a moments thought you would come to a different conclusion.
Please take a moment before replying.
and I decide it is best, safest, most useful for my customers to have wheels that use (say) 6 lug nuts instead of 5.
Except that's not what they did. They are saying it's safest to use custom magic nuts that seem to follow all the standards of a normal nut but for some reason don't thread on it the same way. Then they are saying if someone else produces nut
incompetence (Score:3)
"Apple has responded [PDF] with warnings about security risks,"
Their OS can't be secure if they support standards? They're arguing that they are incompetent.
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hahaha right after this I used my work iPhone to call a coworker and when we wanted to end the call, the phone app showed no call in process so we couldn't end it. Our phones updated last night to the latest shit show.
Apple: It just works! Unless you hold it wrong, or it updates...
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The alternative is Teams, so I was considering the iPhone to be the lesser of evils.
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hahaha right after this I used my work iPhone to call a coworker and when we wanted to end the call, the phone app showed no call in process so we couldn't end it. Our phones updated last night to the latest shit show.
Apple: It just works! Unless you hold it wrong, or it updates...
I call shenanigans!
A quick scour of the Internet reveals no other "can't end call" complaints after an iOS 18.x Update. So you must have been the two unluckiest bastards on the Planet.
If the Phone App showed no call in progress, then how do you know the call was still in progress? And why couldn't the other Party end the call?
Even if all this was true, a Reboot of the phone would solve the situation.
this is the death of irony. (Score:2)
But now the shape of your power connector is for your protection? What's next? We chose a rounded rectangle shape for the phone... for your protection...? This Apple box, made of genuine Apple Cardboard is for your protection...?
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"Apple has responded [PDF] with warnings about security risks,"
Their OS can't be secure if they support standards? They're arguing that they are incompetent.
For me, it's about who has access to protocols used to secure and encrypt data; as well as the actual message data. If Apple is forced to allow anyone access to their encryption keys and protocols, in the name of cross platform compatibility, anyone could then use the information however they want. Apple is far from perfect, but at least there is a level of security inherent in Apple controlling the end to end process. The more people that have access to data, even encrypted, the less secure the system.
A
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Apple is far from perfect, but at least there is a level of security inherent in Apple controlling the end to end process.
No, there's a level of obscurity. That looks like security only until someone competent digs in to it.
Apple does support some standards, but has also developed their own to create an ecosystem people find useful
No, they created an ecosystem people find useful because they don't know better by accident, they developed their own standards to create lock-in to their shitty platform where you're forced to use their browser, and their new features lists are always just stuff Android had years prior, and the interface is hot garbage.
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No, they created an ecosystem people find useful because they don't know better by accident, they developed their own standards to create lock-in to their shitty platform where you're forced to use their browser, and their new features lists are always just stuff Android had years prior, and the interface is hot garbage.
If Apple is so shitty what haven't users abandoned it in droves for Android? Once you get over the initial pain of switching, you'd be in the Glorious Android Era of of well crafted interfaces, features years ahead of Apple, and free to use whatever software you want.
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If Apple is so shitty what haven't users abandoned it in droves for Android?
A combination of cuckery and inertia. They have app libraries that don't transfer, and they have convinced themselves their devices aren't shit in order to justify their purchase, just like the MAGAs that are still faithful to Cheeto Benito are telling themselves that they're smart and people like them
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At what point does EU pressure erode away Apple's ability to differentiate in the market?
I dunno; but they sure are trying!