Apple is Still Standing in the Way of Epic's App Store (theverge.com) 59
Epic Games launched its alternative app store in the European Union last week, capitalizing on new regulations opening up iOS. The store aims to offer developers lower commissions and greater payment flexibility compared to Apple's App Store. However, Apple's new terms for alternative marketplaces present significant challenges for developers. Apple imposes a 50 euro cent per user per year installation fee, a 10% commission on external sales, and a 5% fee on purchases within a year of installation.
These fees apply on top of Epic's 12% commission, potentially making the alternative store less attractive for many developers, The Verge writes. While Epic can likely absorb these costs for its hit game Fortnite, smaller developers face a steeper hurdle. Some industry insiders express skepticism about the viability of the new ecosystem for most app creators. Epic plans to offer a curated selection of third-party games on its mobile store by December, but widespread adoption remains uncertain.
These fees apply on top of Epic's 12% commission, potentially making the alternative store less attractive for many developers, The Verge writes. While Epic can likely absorb these costs for its hit game Fortnite, smaller developers face a steeper hurdle. Some industry insiders express skepticism about the viability of the new ecosystem for most app creators. Epic plans to offer a curated selection of third-party games on its mobile store by December, but widespread adoption remains uncertain.
This needs to stop (Score:1, Offtopic)
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Probably because Apple is not a monopoly.
Re:This needs to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
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Good points. And considering they are using their monopoly (the Apple store) to leverage outrageous fees on devs who choose to not use it seems like a good case for leveraging huge fines until they correct.
The last I read from the EU directive is that Apple must allow other stores. There was no directive on what Apple could charge. But let's go over what is proposed: "Apple imposes a 50 euro cent per user per year installation fee, a 10% commission on external sales, and a 5% fee on purchases within a year of installation."
To use Apple infrastructure of client lists, ecosystem, etc. there will be fees as Apple (nor anyone) is willing to all of that for free. What would you think is a reasonable cost to mainta
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The last I read from the EU directive is that Apple must allow other stores. There was no directive on what Apple could charge. But let's go over what is proposed: "Apple imposes a 50 euro cent per user per year installation fee, a 10% commission on external sales, and a 5% fee on purchases within a year of installation."
To use Apple infrastructure of client lists, ecosystem, etc. there will be fees as Apple (nor anyone) is willing to all of that for free. What would you think is a reasonable cost to maintain that system? I don't know but you seem to think tis is already "outrageous".
Remind me again how much Microsoft charges other developers to install software programs on Windows? Or how much Hp/Lenovo/Dell charge when someone buys a piece of software to use on a computer they built? What about on Android?
Just because this is a portable computer with telephonic capabilities doesn't mean that the answer is different. Indeed, the "reasonable cost to maintain that system" is the cost consumers pay to buy the actual device.
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Well, in the early days you had to buy the Windows SDK. It was something like $250-500 or so for a license to develop a Windows app.
We tend to forget it because things like MinGW and such offered an alternative SDK - it was clunky, but it was free. Clunky in that MinGW produced COFF binaries and you needed to run a tool to convert them to PE.
Then Linux broke onto the scene, but still dev tools on PC cost mon
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Well, in the early days you had to buy the Windows SDK. It was something like $250-500 or so for a license to develop a Windows app.
Huh? In the early days you did NOT had to buy the Windows SDK to develop a Windows app, having any compiler, like those from Borland, was enough.
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So, if I didn't give my money to Apple, would they still charge the developer? Or is it that if I want to buy something on my iPhone, then when I give Apple money,
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Apple has a monopoly. Again people do not seem to understand the nuance that not all monopolies are illegal ones.
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That holds true if the iPhone was the only cell phone in existence.
GM does not hold a monopoly on Corvette production.
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That holds true if the iPhone was the only cell phone in existence.
Nobody said they had a monopoly on phones.
GM does not hold a monopoly on Corvette production.
Oh look, non-car-guy holds forth on computer stuff with a car example. Except anyone can make parts for Corvettes, so it's as usual a dumb example. Stick to what you know, whatever that might be. It sure as shit ain't cars.
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Oh look, non-car-guy holds forth on computer stuff with a car example. Except anyone can make parts for Corvettes, so it's as usual a dumb example. Stick to what you know, whatever that might be. It sure as shit ain't cars.
Anyone can also make parts for iPhones, what the fuck are you even arguing about?
Apple makes phones and computers, these are not unique products. Plenty of other companies also make phones and computers.
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Oh give me a break.
That makes practically every manufacturer a "monopoly".
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Yeah....I think you need to go learn what a monopoly is: A monopoly is a market structure with a single seller or producer that assumes a dominant position in an industry or a sector.
It does NOT mean the only one who makes your specific brand of product.
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Technically Apple is a monopoly; they have a monopoly on Apple products as they do not license others to make their products
Substitute any other company for Apple in this statement.
I saved so much money buying my Phantom from Nissan instead of Rolls Royce!
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You are confusing exclusivity with monopoly.
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I'm a collection of differentiated cells. I'm a polypoly.
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they were sued for leveraging their monopoly against competitors and partners to keep their monopoly.
It is worth noting for completeness sake that legal dictionaries do not classify a monopoly the same was a economic definitions do. Economically to have a monopoly you need to be the sole supplier in a market. Legally to have a monopoly (or rather to monopolize which is the word used in the antitrust act) you need to have enough market power to influence a market.
A lot of people say "but I can just go buy something else". That is irrelevant.
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I'll get right on that, as soon as I install a bunch of apps on our Honda CRV too.
Re:This needs to stop (Score:4, Interesting)
False analogy. The onboard infotainment systems on most cars generally aren't open to external applications, period.
The thing is that Apple DOES open up their stuff to 3rd party programs, but they also want to act as a gatekeeper. They take a share of the profits generated from those apps and restrict what can exist on the device.
If you are marketing a device as a general purpose compute device open to run programs written by third parties, then the decision on what to install and where to install it from should fall to the owner of the device, not the manufacturer.
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What this sentiment says is that Apple shouldn't be able to get as much revenue (and profit) from these sales, but should instead get revenue to keep the OS and dev tools some other way. What should Apple do? People scream about Android and Windows and whatever getting their revenue through advertising. So would you really prefer Apple to switch to that model?
Would you prefer Apple get smaller and make less frequent OS and dev tool updates, because they have less revenue, and so be less able to actually b
Re: This needs to stop (Score:2)
Crazy, I know, but I've heard it's possible to profit without vendor lockin or subscription services. I don't know how those business wizards do it... I've heard whispers of things like "customer satisfaction" and "good products" and "effective pricing", but I don't believe them... It's too god-damned simple ..
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Would you prefer Apple get smaller and make less frequent OS and dev tool updates
Oh do shut up. Apple charges $100 per year for developers to even be able to access the Apple Store. This alone is more than Microsoft was getting from most of the developers. Add to that the necessity of buying beefy enough Apple hardware to even be able to create iOS applications, because by license you are NOT allowed to use XCode libraries on non-Apple hardware.
These two income sources alone are enough to keep the API development.
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Would you prefer Apple get smaller and make less frequent OS and dev tool updates
Oh do shut up. Apple charges $100 per year for developers to even be able to access the Apple Store. This alone is more than Microsoft was getting from most of the developers. Add to that the necessity of buying beefy enough Apple hardware to even be able to create iOS applications, because by license you are NOT allowed to use XCode libraries on non-Apple hardware. These two income sources alone are enough to keep the API development.
Most Microsoft developers I have worked with have costly development tool subscriptions from Microsoft. Also, Microsoft's main revenue source in this space is Windows subscriptions for companies so they get plenty of recurring revenue that way.
While I'm absolutely not saying Apple is right - it's my device, not theirs, after I bought it, and they certainly have a large enough margin on that phone to keep the company financially healthy - the revenue models for Microsoft and Apple are completely different.
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Most Microsoft developers I have worked with have costly development tool subscriptions from Microsoft.
Then you worked either with idiots or with corporate developers who were not paying out of their own pocket.
Also, Microsoft's main revenue source in this space is Windows subscriptions for companies so they get plenty of recurring revenue that way.
Yup. And Apple is a small starving company that sells hardware at-cost, with zero profit margin. They are only kept afloat by the developer fees. Won't anyone have a pity for a small trillion dollar company?!?
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That's why I won't buy a car that doesn't support Android Auto.
I expect the EU will be having a word with Apple about this shortly. Google doesn't charge anything for third party app stores and app installs. We even have open source app stores over here.
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Definitions (Score:2)
Pedantically you are correct.
Apple has a monopoly on the app store they developed and curate that runs on the operating system they wrote on the hardware they design, build and sell.
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Go install an application on an iPhone that isn't through the Apple store and then tell me how they're not a monopoly. Then tell me how I can install an application on an Andriod (which I can) or on Windows or Linux or even a Mac without this kind of gate in place.
Your second sentence answers your first.
Apple is not a monopoly because you can buy competing products.
Doesn't mean that they're right, just means that "monopoly" is a word that means "competing products don't exist."
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'Hate to break it to you, bub... But you also can't install a game on your PS5 from the xBox store or on your Switch from Steam or on your Mac from PSN. Shocker of shockers, NO App-Store-like market is universal to all devices.
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Ok, I create a free Apple developer account and then click a yes box every two weeks when it asks.
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Monopolies aren't the only possible anti-competitive behavior.
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(insert what the fuck meme)
I can only see .. (Score:1)
... an epic spy app. (tencent!)
Sounds like Epic gave out too many MegaGrants... (Score:2)
Have to set a bar to keep out the riff raff (Score:5, Insightful)
We can debate the amounts - but there has to be a bar that will discourage what I'll call the riff raff - those penny grabbing folks who will want to spam things on the cheap with an app store full or garbage. Legitimate stores that can make a proper go and contribute to the eco-system are one thing, but making sure that the trash can't make money so they stay away is another.
Using the dictionary definition is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
The legal definition of monopolization is not the same as the common dictionary term people use. This is common in law, as it is in many other fields - e.g. in science, a theory is a well tested, proven result of many experiments and observation, the common use of the word theory is what a scientist would call a hypothesis.; in engineering stress and strain are very different from the same words commonly used with psychology and cooking.
https://www.ftc.gov/advice-gui... [ftc.gov]
Under the correct legal definition of monopolization, Apple definitely qualifies as one legally. As far as the dictionary definition, it doesn't qualify, but that is completely irrelevant as this is a legal dispute, not a etimological one.
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And I know this is in Europe, I just included the US definition as an example because I already had the link.
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The definition is the same legally everywhere. Anti-trust law does not apply only if you're an exclusive supplier. It applies when you have market influence.
Epic are standing in the way of the Epic app store (Score:4, Interesting)
No one wants to use the Epic launcher on Apple, PC or anywhere else but are forced to use it if they want to play any of their games on those platforms. I know people that refuse to buy any Epic games at all because of the requirement to do so.
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No one wants to use the Epic launcher on Apple, PC or anywhere else but are forced to use it if they want to play any of their games on those platforms. I know people that refuse to buy any Epic games at all because of the requirement to do so.
Yeah, I don't have anything from them or anyone witch forces you into some kind of "launcher". Got pretty burned up similarly by EA play or whatever is was called at that time, that thing should just burn in hell. Also in the list: windows/driver only anti-cheat systems that (barely) works in windows only.
Re: Epic are standing in the way of the Epic app s (Score:2)
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Don't apply PCisms to phones. Many people couldn't give a flying hoot about an Epic Store on their phone. An app store on a phone provides no meaningful functionality beyond downloading an app. No one cares about it enough to not install it.
On PC the "store" provides a wide range of additional functionality for the games on it, including social, matchmaking, cloud save sync, etc. Honestly people wouldn't care about it on PC either if the Epic Store wasn't a horrendous piece of shit compared to the alternati
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No one wants to use the Epic launcher on Apple, PC or anywhere else but are forced to use it if they want to play any of their games on those platforms. I know people that refuse to buy any Epic games at all because of the requirement to do so.
A million times this.
People tolerate Steam because it does useful things and gets the fuck out of the way when you don't want it. It's a bit like a butler, makes sure the cellar is properly stocked and stays out of the way. Same with GOG Galaxy. There is a reason they're the only two stores I allow on my gaming boxen.
What gamers are sick to death of are superfluous launchers that serve no purpose but annoying you with ads. Looking at you Paradox "but the launcher is still updating, do you really want