Apple Arcade Developers Say Working With Apple Is Like Being In an 'Abusive Relationship' (appleinsider.com) 59
Mobile game developers have voiced increasing frustration with Apple, citing reduced payments, delayed compensation, poor communication, and inadequate support, particularly with the Apple Vision Pro. Apple Insider reports: In February, game developers began expressing frustration over Apple Arcade. They pointed out that while the service was initially profitable, Apple had begun decreasing upfront payments and the per-play "bonus pool." Additionally, the tech giant began to axe projects with little to no warning. According to Mobilegamer.biz, developers continue to be unhappy with how Apple's running its "pay once, play all you want" game subscription service. Developers point out how Apple has delayed payments -- sometimes up to six months -- which has put smaller studios in precarious situations.
Devs are also unhappy with Apple's communication -- or lack thereof. "We can go weeks without hearing from Apple at all and their general response time to emails is three weeks, if they reply at all," one developer told Mobilegamer.biz. Some have even called Apple's tech support "miserable" and the worst they'd seen anywhere. Even the QA and update process is frustrating, prompting some developers to avoid updating their games altogether. [...] One particularly frustrated developer spoke out against Apple Arcade, saying, "It's like an abusive relationship where the abused stays in the relationship hoping the other partner will change and become the person you know they could be." When it comes to the Apple Vision Pro, many game developers are increasingly frustrated with the headset's struggles to run demanding games. And, while Apple wants indie developers to create new games for their new headset, the company "does not provide compensation or make any promises to promote or market the game once it is finished," says Apple Insider.
Devs are also unhappy with Apple's communication -- or lack thereof. "We can go weeks without hearing from Apple at all and their general response time to emails is three weeks, if they reply at all," one developer told Mobilegamer.biz. Some have even called Apple's tech support "miserable" and the worst they'd seen anywhere. Even the QA and update process is frustrating, prompting some developers to avoid updating their games altogether. [...] One particularly frustrated developer spoke out against Apple Arcade, saying, "It's like an abusive relationship where the abused stays in the relationship hoping the other partner will change and become the person you know they could be." When it comes to the Apple Vision Pro, many game developers are increasingly frustrated with the headset's struggles to run demanding games. And, while Apple wants indie developers to create new games for their new headset, the company "does not provide compensation or make any promises to promote or market the game once it is finished," says Apple Insider.
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I don't know why all these people sign up to get fucked over and abused and then cry when they get fucked over and abused.
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Actually it does. Not in the narrow "which party" sense, but in the "Should I respect people I don't have to?" sense, which is one of the real political divides.
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My temptation was to say "Well, you have identified which side of the political divide you are on.", but I suspect you're just begin cynical.
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I'm mostly conservative with centrist leanings on certain topics. I'm a realist who doesn't believe in fairy tales and the self deluded things some people convince themselves of that are self evidently false. (This is a general statement not directed at you).
Does my politics matter when the topic is Apple vs IOS devs?
Re: What did they expect? (Score:3)
I'm a realist that doesn't believe in fantasty like trickle down economics or that an unintelligent mechasism like the free market should be allowed to make society's decisions. For this, not only do I lean to the center, but I am labeled as part of the radical center.
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Politics is about pure raw unbridled power over other people.
That's an opinion and perhaps says more about you than reality.
Re:What did they expect? (Score:5, Interesting)
They didn't used to be like this.
When Apple first started with its app store, there where some big delays in app approvals, due to them still spinning up the process. I had an app that I had developed for a client, and when it took a few weeks and still not approved and my client was getting pretty damn irate, so I wrote an email to sjobs @ apple dot com , and at 2am (I'm in australia) I got a phonecall from his personal assistant telling me steve had read the email and was in a rage and that the assistant had been personally assigned to getting my app approved. And within a few months those queues where really starting to get shorter.
Steve jobs would be mortified by the current state of affairs. The service has been up for a long time now, the bugs are supposed to be ironed out.
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What? That's rubbish.
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Read it again. Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) was a one-time $50 fee, which got you a vendor ID and development kit. I have all the paperwork for obtaining the ADB license for the Music Publisher notation entry keypad. They also provided design drawings for their keyboards to assist in making the notation entry keypad match the design.
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They didn't used to be like this.
When Apple first started with its app store, there where some big delays in app approvals, due to them still spinning up the process. I had an app that I had developed for a client, and when it took a few weeks and still not approved and my client was getting pretty damn irate, so I wrote an email to sjobs @ apple dot com , and at 2am (I'm in australia) I got a phonecall from his personal assistant telling me steve had read the email and was in a rage and that the assistant had been personally assigned to getting my app approved. And within a few months those queues where really starting to get shorter.
Steve jobs would be mortified by the current state of affairs. The service has been up for a long time now, the bugs are supposed to be ironed out.
Well, new markets take careful attention. The App store now is mature, and considered sacrosanct. Bow before them and worship at their altar, or don't. What do they care?
Re:What did they expect? (Score:4, Interesting)
I was an Apple developer 30 years ago. It was enough that I'd never put my money into any business dependent upon Apple's good will ever again.
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I'd never put my money into any business dependent upon Apple's good will ever again.
Perhaps you think you are being treated unfairly?
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Fairness is a complex issue, and we're usually bad judges of it when our interests are involved.
So I'll settle for predictability. If you're trying to build a business, you need some degree of predictability in any company you're going to rely on.
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I was an Apple developer 30 years ago. It was enough that I'd never put my money into any business dependent upon Apple's good will ever again.
Apple is just an abusive company, abusive to suppliers and customers. The customers are just the battered wives of end users, It's OK because Apple says he loves me.
The wheels will fall off that bus eventually though.
Mixed up expectations (Score:3)
"does not provide compensation or make any promises to promote or market the game once it is finished"
Why would they?
Yes, I think they should have a marketing process you can hitch a ride to, but at the end of the day: Marketing is the Developers responsibility. Apple isn't acting as the Publisher, just the distributor.
Re:Mixed up expectations (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Mixed up expectations (Score:3)
I absolutely agree, although not in regards to Steve Balmer. (That's a separate discussion).
However, this is the whiners club, I've done iOS development and I know Apple can be challenging, but I've seen similar complaints for most of the distributors, particularly when your small independent studio or lone developer.
It isn't up to Apple to sell your wares though, it's not a lottery where getting published automatically means sales.
I mean, I wish, or I'd still be doing iOS development.
(I've been called a li
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Whether Apple should compensate or market for the developers, well that sounds a bit much
We're not talking general platforms here. We're talking about specifically VR. That bar is already set, Meta and Sony do this for people developing for the Oculus / PSVR. People are upset here that Apple isn't following the industry norm.
As to why? Well it's in Apple's interest to kick start this. Their VR platform is basically dead, a content desert. VR is far more difficult to develop for than say a mobile phone, all the while the target market is very small. Other platforms specifically invest in their d
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Whether Apple should compensate or market for the developers, well that sounds a bit much, but... A platform lives and dies by the ease of providing the content onto it. Ballmer screamed "developers, developers" for a reason. Microsoft understood the need to ease the life of developers and put effort into the the apis and documentation. Youtube, too, used to understand that they are nothing without the creators. App Store together with the Iphone got off the ground also because the developers life was made easy. You need to lube the living f out of providing for the platform, and bring the consumers to meet the providers. If Apple is now pissing off the developers on their headset instead, that means the headset is dead on arrival. Which it probably was some time ago already, because with the price of it, there is no market for it anyway.
Exactly this.
No-one buys Windows for the fun of running Windows... they buy it because of everything that runs on it and a reasonable assurance that things will keep running on it... And Microsoft fucking knows it.
The same is true for Linux, which would be nothing without the myriad of open source projects that make up the Linux ecosystem. It's also true for Apple but unlike Microsoft and Linux, they sniff their own farts enough to think that without a lively ecosystem surrounding it that people will
No, perfectly correct expectations (Score:5, Insightful)
You cut out the most important part of the sentence you quoted. "When it comes to the Apple Vision Pro" VR headset and games are disproportionately expensive to develop for a small target audience and small payback. Providing compensation and marketing assistance is the *norm* in this field. Sony, Meta (via Oculus Game Studios) all have set the bar here.
This is not normal game development precisely because it is in the interests of Apple (and the other headset manufacturers) to actually kick-start the content for their hyper expensive niche toys. The expectation in TFS is perfectly fine given what is being developed.
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You cut out the most important part of the sentence you quoted. "When it comes to the Apple Vision Pro" VR headset and games are disproportionately expensive to develop for a small target audience and small payback. Providing compensation and marketing assistance is the *norm* in this field. Sony, Meta (via Oculus Game Studios) all have set the bar here.
This is not normal game development precisely because it is in the interests of Apple (and the other headset manufacturers) to actually kick-start the content for their hyper expensive niche toys. The expectation in TFS is perfectly fine given what is being developed.
VR headsets get tried once every decade or two and then generally get forgotten about until someone else thinks they can make it work this time. There just isn't enough of a market for them because they're expensive and impractical. What limited market there is for it is tied up by Meta. Apple has repeatedly shown that it struggles to compete with a market that is already established.
I've used a VR set up in a custom made booth at a bar in Clapham Junction (London) it was fun for about 1/2 an hour before
Re:No, perfectly correct expectations (Score:4, Informative)
VR headsets get tried once every decade or two and then generally get forgotten about until someone else thinks they can make it work this time.
Are you pretending like VR headsets haven't been continuously on the market for over a decade now with a very steady yearly rise in sales?
There just isn't enough of a market for them
More people own a VR headset than bout a Nintendo gamecube. Should we be worried about the future of the Nintendo console?
because they're expensive and impractical
Standalone VR headsets are cheaper than either an xbox or PS5, and don't need to be setup near a TV.
Apple has repeatedly shown that it struggles to compete with a market that is already established.
Not really. Apple here has more fundamentally missed a point. It's no about entering an established market, it's about how. Apple's keynote at WWDC showed off the hardware and all it's capabilities. Meta Connect spent 5 minutes FIVE MINUTES ONLY talking about the Quest 3, and then proceeded to talk about the content and games coming out. It shouldn't be a surprise that people have no idea what to do with a VisionPro. Apple completely fumbled this in baffling ways.
Mainly the disconnect between what I was seeing and my inner ear
VR sickness is a thing. That first hour or so is a doosey. But the thing is, if you judge going to the gym by how much your muscles hurt after day 1 you'd quit that too. VR sickness takes a couple of days to get over. Within a week of me buying one I could happily wear and play for hours at a time, and I say that as someone who gets motion sick watching people step onto a boat. There's a reason I bought my headset with a 30 day return window, but I was pleasantly surprised that after a few days I didn't feel the need to exercise it. But those first times are always nasty. It does take getting used to.
Steam does (Score:2)
Apple on the other hand will take a look at whatever you've written and if it's efficiently popular they'll steal it and put you out of business. It's so
You've made your bed, now lie in it (Score:2)
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Indeed! Walled gardens have lots of red tape, that's not news. If you want the Wild West, then find a Wild West headset maker. If you are used to that, it may be a better fit for your habits.
Codependency (Score:2)
Codependency is a problem of your own making, just stop it.
Stockholm Syndrome (Score:1, Insightful)
Olympic Women's Boxing (Score:2, Insightful)
It's like women who are faced with having the shit beat out of them by a man in this event. They should declare that isn't what they signed up for, refuse to play, let the two men take the gold and silver and refuse to fight each other for the scrap of Bronze. Send a message.
Similarly, if these developers are so unhappy with Apple, they should refuse to play and go develop for Apple's competitors.
In both cases, if they decide to play anyway, it's hard to have much sympathy when they get their asses handed t
Re:Olympic Women's Boxing (Score:5, Insightful)
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Just as a correction. The two men are in different weight classes. So if I could edit the above post, I would refuse it to say that the women in those events should refuse silver and bronze medals, and let the only two medals for those events be gold medals, awarded to men.
Of course, it would be more effective ALL the women refused to compete, in any event. Just let the officials look like the dumbasses they are for holding a failed Olympics because they let men compete in women's sports, especially boxing.
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They said they're women. So they're women.
Please keep up with the current Narrative.
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But it's funny that logic doesn't fly if you say you're black, or a medical doctor, or a small potted plant.
Two separate issues (Score:5, Insightful)
The 6-month delay in payments is a much more serious issue. That suggests that Apple is scrimping on core business processes. Getting checks and payroll processed on time is basically the heartbeat of a functioning business. Screwing up in that area is pretty strong evidence of dysfunctionality. They need to fix that asap.
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6 months late, but late in actually receiving money?? That's still better than 12-18 months late, declaring your sales to be zero so you never see a cent in royalties, then get sued when one of your project leads quits because holyhell there's actually a contract clause that you owe the publisher money if you don't retain your core team.
And it is important that everyone knows those are the rules before they even begin. I suspect the publisher rather goes out of their way to hide all that from you. Stories like this help everyone be a little more clear on the concept. Like they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
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6 months late, but late in actually receiving money?? That's still better than 12-18 months late, declaring your sales to be zero so you never see a cent in royalties, then get sued when one of your project leads quits because holyhell there's actually a contract clause that you owe the publisher money if you don't retain your core team.
And it is important that everyone knows those are the rules before they even begin. I suspect the publisher rather goes out of their way to hide all that from you. Stories like this help everyone be a little more clear on the concept. Like they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
It's nice to see that software has caught up with the music and literature industries. I'm honestly starting to have the opinion that the business shark agents necessary to not get royally fucked over by a label or a publishing house should almost be a pre-requisite for every person who wants to sell anything creative they've made. If you can't find an indie/self-made channel for sales, you have to play with the big boys. And the big boys, unfortunately, see creatives as swappable cogs. Piss one off? There'
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Holy crap. I would exit that industry in a heartbeat. I mean, I get it. I really want to do something that I love. But I also love not being homeless and being able to afford food and medication. Payment that late means that business processes are flat-out broken, and you're better off bailing.
Get a job that actually functions properly, and pursue your love on evenings and weekends.
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Are you serious? 6-12 months delay on getting paid are NORMAL in the game and music industries? Holy crap. I would exit that industry in a heartbeat. I mean, I get it. I really want to do something that I love. But I also love not being homeless and being able to afford food and medication. Payment that late means that business processes are flat-out broken, and you're better off bailing. Get a job that actually functions properly, and pursue your love on evenings and weekends.
That's the joys of letting "industry" overcome "creative" when it comes to creative industry. The business holds all the cards while the creators beg for scraps. Unless you luck out and your first release somehow goes gangbusters. Then they'll only steal about 90-95% of the profits before handing you your pittance, but you will get your pittance quickly. Because they want more from you, and think the breadcrumbs are creative fuel.
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If Apple wants to Wal-mart-ize their relationship with game devs, that’s their right and their business call to make. I question the wisdom. Apple partially makes bank on being a fairly premium experience, and squeezing devs that badly could easily decrease quality if they’re not careful. But they’re totally within their rights to play hardball with their subcontractors if they want. The 6-month delay in payments is a much more serious issue. That suggests that Apple is scrimping on core business processes. Getting checks and payroll processed on time is basically the heartbeat of a functioning business. Screwing up in that area is pretty strong evidence of dysfunctionality. They need to fix that asap.
Counter-possibility: It's Apple. They are a massive juggernaut of a company, even if they aren't the biggest player in every field they step into. If they want to play gather the interest for six months on the money they owe devs? Who is going to stop them? The developers? Yeah, good luck.
Signing up for Apple Arcade is about the same (Score:3)
Subscribing to software makes no sense. In the pre-iPhone days, you'd get a new game for maybe ten bucks and play it for a while, and you could go back and play it a decade later if you wanted. Eventually, you'd have enough of a library that you wouldn't buy new ones as often, and you would end up paying a lot less.
Everything about mobile gaming is a huge step backwards, from the piles and piles of ads to the games that use dark patterns to pressure you into making in-app purchases, and game rental is just another in a long line of bad ideas.
Publishers don't like it. Users don't like it. Could we please stop doing it?
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Publishers don't like it. Users don't like it. Could we please stop doing it?
And yet, publishers keep publishing those games and people keep buying them. If you want this to stop there is a very simple method anyone can do. Stop. Buying. The. Games.
It's so simple I'm doing it right now. No effort required. Now you try it.
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Eventually, you'd have enough of a library that you wouldn't buy new ones as often, and you would end up paying a lot less.
Software != Gaming. Given aside the addiction tactics of quite a lot of mobile games, ultimately games are a form of entertainment, and any individual game usually has limited entertainment value before you move on. Sure there are the odd balls where people will play a specific game for hundreds or thousands of hours, but for the most part the cycles is: 1. Buy game. 2. Play game. 3. Finish game. 4. Goto 1.
Subscription for games makes perfect sense providing they financially work out in your playing style.
Everything Apple is. (Score:2)
^ Title.
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Oh, man, you're gonna get Stockholm Syndrome incoming.
No, it's not. (Score:2)
You're fucking crazy and no one will believe you.
tiny violins (Score:2)
I hear tiny violins lamenting your decision to tie your business to the whims of a walled garden.
Like (Score:2)
Like?