Apple Mocks Microsoft's Spectacular Windows Recall AI Failure 71
At a panel discussion, Apple's global marketing SVP Greg "Joz" Joswiak mocked Microsoft's recent recall of its Windows Recall feature. When asked by commentator John Gruber if Apple was frustrated by Microsoft's inability to build trust in such features, Joswiak quipped, "are we frustrated by the failings of our competitors? The answer's no," eliciting laughter from the panel and audience.
Re:Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:5, Informative)
The saves were promised to be encrypted...
That actually seemed to be weasel-wording on Microsoft's part. They said it would be "encrypted using BitLocker", which likely meant they were just referring to the overall disk encryption Windows uses - not some additional encryption applied to Recall's data store.
Stupid Features win Stupid Prizes (Score:4, Insightful)
as the intended spyware functionality of Windows saving screenshots every 3 - 5 seconds.
The problem MS has is that if you are going to massively invade people's privacy and take up huge amounts of storage and C/GPU power keeping and processing images you really need an incredible new capability to offer to make it worthwhile. Simply being able to find some website I visited a week ago but forgot to book mark is so far from that mark that it makes it look like MS just wants the screenshots and this was the best excuse they could come up with hence the question of trust.
Apple should not be complacent though - they are just one stupid idea away from winning the same stupid prize.
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More than screenshots, I think MS desperately needed to show that AI is worth it.
Check out this WSJ video of Joanna Stern interviewing Nadella, which is oddly outside of the paywall. The REASON Nadella uses to justify "NPU" ("Neural Processing Units") in the new laptop, when she asks him what's that all for, is Recall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
By the level of Nadella's forced enthusiasm I am guessing that a tech megacrash is in the making and cannot be stoped.
And WSJ seems to sense it, which is maybe
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as the intended spyware functionality of Windows saving screenshots every 3 - 5 seconds.
The problem MS has is that if you are going to massively invade people's privacy and take up huge amounts of storage and C/GPU power keeping and processing images you really need an incredible new capability to offer to make it worthwhile. Simply being able to find some website I visited a week ago but forgot to book mark is so far from that mark that it makes it look like MS just wants the screenshots and this was the best excuse they could come up with hence the question of trust.
Apple should not be complacent though - they are just one stupid idea away from winning the same stupid prize.
Except it is pretty clear that Apple is only using OpenAI to get to Market in a reasonable time. Soon, Apple Datacenters will be Processing these Requests on Apple Silicon Servers running Independently Verified and Notarized Code without even the Ability to be Modified after Building (IIRC), and with No Shell. And OpenAI will be shown the Door (or Window). . .
Apple has obviously thought this through pretty far.
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I'll cop to ignorance here, and say that perhaps only I am concerned about openAI and chatGPT being used by Siri and the rest of iOS. My misinformed self also might be the only one worried about a former NSA director being tied to both. I do understand the laughter at the expense of Microsoft by Gruber and his fandom. But people laughing about recall and not the concerns of openAI or chatGPT doesn't mean they get the bigger picture.
Hopefully someone can describe to me how Apple can use openAI and chatGP
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That are legitimate and separate questions to ask Apple. The question asked in the interview was about Windows Recall and the backlash it received as MS seemingly ignored all initial criticism about how it functioned.
Unlike Apple; who spent nearly half of their Forty-Minute Sub-Keynote on Apple Intelligence's Privacy Protection-By-Design:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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I'll cop to ignorance here, and say that perhaps only I am concerned about openAI and chatGPT being used by Siri and the rest of iOS. My misinformed self also might be the only one worried about a former NSA director being tied to both. I do understand the laughter at the expense of Microsoft by Gruber and his fandom. But people laughing about recall and not the concerns of openAI or chatGPT doesn't mean they get the bigger picture.
Hopefully someone can describe to me how Apple can use openAI and chatGPT on device without ever sharing any data or device information to openAI and chatGPT in a way that is satisfying.
You Never have to turn one single Request over to ChatGPT, only certain non-locally-solvable Requests are even Nominated for ChatGPT Processing, and you are asked Permission Every. Single. Time, and also told Exactly what Personal Info (if any) is being sent to OpenAI.
I think this is well-designed for User Privacy.
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People were not concerned about the AI part of Recall as much as the intended spyware functionality of Windows saving screenshots every 3 - 5 seconds.
Other than in a business surveilling its employees situation, I can't really imagine a personal use case where one would really need (or want) continuous, frequent screenshots like that to recall what they were doing. This seems more like an initial foray into a generalized telemetry system that could track all activity, not just in Windows and apps including MS telemetry code -- take a screen shot, have "AI" analyze everything in it, report back to MS, rinse and repeat (a lot).
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Re:Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple just announced it will be using the same AI back end that Microsoft was using for recall.
No they didn't. First of all Recall does not use OpenAI models. It runs using a local model on the device, there is no cloud involved. With Apple most of the models also run on device. Apple has their own, not OpenAI, cloud models that can do heavy lifting when needed. OpenAI (and other AI services in the future, they will let you add/choose models at some point) are an add-on that it offers to run in certain situations, and it prompts the user to allow it each time. It is not the backbone of either Recall or Apple's AI implementation.
You people really need to stop getting all your tech news from Elon Musk's twitter feed.
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Siri can also tap into ChatGPT’s intelligence when helpful. Apple users are asked before any questions are sent to ChatGPT, along with any documents or photos, and Siri then presents the answer directly.
ChatGPT isn't the primary AI that Siri or any other of the Apple AI services will use. It's an extension you can choose to use, and, again, prompts the user each time before sending any data.
Re: Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:1)
Deliberate misinformation is easily consumed by those who want to believe it, and then they spread it as if they are an expert. You are unlikely to be able to reveal the incorrect assumptions in their thinking.
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What isn't correct exactly?
Your first sentence was not entirely correct. Their point was that Microsoft's AI backbone is chatGPT. Apple's new AI backbone is including chatGPT. Yes, the user will have the option of turning it on/off. However, it's still being integrated into Siri. I understand that their statement wasn't entirely accurate, but neither was your response within the context. That is why I said what I did. I wasn't discrediting most of what you said. It's just semantic nuance that might be relevant to someone.
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Apple just announced it will be using the same AI back end that Microsoft was using for recall.
and my first sentence
No they didn't.
Recall does not use anything from OpenAI. It uses MS developed models that run on device. That sentence is 100% correct.
Apple's new AI backbone is including chatGPT.
I would argue that chatGPT is not part of their "backbone". Their "backbone" is build on their own in-house local and cloud models. chatGPT is an adjunct that you can also send queries to if you choose to. If anything it acts more as a plugin. One that will also be extended
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There is such a thing as tailoring your answer for the audience. Someone making a technically inaccurate, but easy to interpret, statement is likely not going to get a complete picture response that doesn't contain all the details. Your explanation was incomplete, given that context. And further, I missed it but your explanation of "on a case by case basis" appears to be inaccurate. It is opt-in, but you don't have to confirm it every time. That is, all the info I can find indicates that.
Wrong.
Just. Fucking. Wrong.
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No, it's not. So sorry to disappoint.
Yes, it is.
Go see my Other Post, Proving I'm Correct:
https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]
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It is opt-in, but you don't have to confirm it every time. That is, all the info I can find indicates that.
They literally showed how it worked during the keynote bud. Their documentation covers this as well. Multiple Apple execs have been asked and stated how it works as well. IT ASKS EVERY TIME.
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What isn't correct exactly?
Your first sentence was not entirely correct. Their point was that Microsoft's AI backbone is chatGPT. Apple's new AI backbone is including chatGPT. Yes, the user will have the option of turning it on/off. However, it's still being integrated into Siri. I understand that their statement wasn't entirely accurate, but neither was your response within the context. That is why I said what I did. I wasn't discrediting most of what you said. It's just semantic nuance that might be relevant to someone.
Your "analysis" is Incorrect. EvilSS' is Correct:
https://apple.slashdot.org/com... [slashdot.org]
Plus:
https://apple.slashdot.org/com... [slashdot.org]
https://appleinsider.com/artic... [appleinsider.com]
ChatGPT is not "integrated" into Siri. Siri now just has a way to Pass a Request to ChatGPT if and only if the User Specifically Allows it Each And Every Time!
Big Difference!
So suck it, Hater.
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Yes, it is integrated. It's not required to be use, but its integrated. The fact that it can be use, at all, means it's integrated. And, again, all indication from Apple and news sources is that it's opt in but not that it asks every single time. None of those links say it asks specifically each and every time. So, enjoy being wrong unless/until you can actually provide proof.
Howabout Tim Cook stating exactly that:
"[. . .] all personal requests related to Apple’s built-in apps, such as Messages, Mail, Calendar, and more, will use the company’s intelligence. In contrast, “world knowledge” can be requested for OpenAI ChatGPT and later for other large language models.
Still, Apple’s CEO says that every time you might want to ask for world knowledge, Siri will confirm if you’re OK with sharing that data with third-party apps. “You’ll ma
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I searched plenty of places, and did not find that confirmation. I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong on that.
I had to look for about 5 minutes myself; an eternity in Google Time! I was just slightly more lucky with my DDG Search-fu!
Thanks for apologizing; most people just stop Replying!
I also like the fact that Timmy confirmed that they are basically considering a Plugin Architecture for Siri's Interfacing with Third-Party LLMs. That will help keep those Data Thieves In Line!
I really DO think Apple is thinking this through pretty thoroughly. It will be fascinating to see this in real-world use!
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I don't always agree with Apple's decisions, but they do tend to put thought behind them.
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There are some things that are as much opinion as reality, so I won't always back down. Like the rest of what I said. But, facts are facts. I asked for proof, and proof was provided. It's only fair.
I don't always agree with Apple's decisions, but they do tend to put thought behind them.
I can ask for no more from anyone. 8-)
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@EvilSS was entirely correct, and nothing you said in apparent rebuttal contradicted that. There is ChatGPT integration, which is basically a plug-in that Siri can use if it doesn't know the answer to something.
Apple Intelligence is based around models they developed, built and trained themselves, either on-device or with cloud assist on servers made of their own hardware running an operating they built themselves, also running models that they developed, built and trained thems
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@EvilSS was entirely correct, and nothing you said in apparent rebuttal contradicted that.
No, they weren't. And yes, I did. Your inability to understand my point is on you. Further, I even actually corrected a different statement they made. One that wasn't my original point. So, I was doubly correct in correcting them.
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Arrant nonsense. I now suspect you are a troll. Your comment in its entirety is:
That's all. Let's take the second part first where you claim to be "doubly correct" - LOL - about "The chatGPT integration" (sic. - NB - the 'C' in 'ChatGPT' is capitalised; see chatgpt.com). This part of your reply cannot possibly be rationa
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@EvilSS was entirely correct, and nothing you said in apparent rebuttal contradicted that.
No, they weren't. And yes, I did.
Yes, they Were. And No, you Didn't.
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Re:Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:4, Informative)
from open AI:
OpenAI and Apple announce partnership to integrate ChatGPT into Apple experiences
Apple is integrating ChatGPT into experiences within iOS, iPadOS, and macOS, allowing users to access ChatGPT’s capabilities—including image and document understanding—without needing to jump between tools.
Siri can also tap into ChatGPT’s intelligence when helpful. Apple users are asked before any questions are sent to ChatGPT, along with any documents or photos, and Siri then presents the answer directly.
Additionally, ChatGPT will be available in Apple’s systemwide Writing Tools, to help users generate content for anything they are writing about. Users can also tap into ChatGPT image tools to generate images in a wide variety of styles to complement what they are writing.
Privacy protections are built in when accessing ChatGPT within Siri and Writing Tools—requests are not stored by OpenAI, and users’ IP addresses are obscured. Users can also choose to connect their ChatGPT account, which means their data preferences will apply under ChatGPT’s policies.
The ChatGPT integration, powered by GPT-4o, will come to iOS, iPadOS, and macOS later this year. Users can access it for free without creating an account, and ChatGPT subscribers can connect their accounts and access paid features right from these experiences.
or from Apple's website:
ChatGPT Gets Integrated Across Apple Platforms
Apple is integrating ChatGPT access into experiences within iOS 18, iPadOS 18, and macOS Sequoia, allowing users to access its expertise — as well as its image- and document-understanding capabilities — without needing to jump between tools.
Siri can tap into ChatGPT’s expertise when helpful. Users are asked before any questions are sent to ChatGPT, along with any documents or photos, and Siri then presents the answer directly.
Additionally, ChatGPT will be available in Apple’s systemwide Writing Tools, which help users generate content for anything they are writing about. With Compose, users can also access ChatGPT image tools to generate images in a wide variety of styles to complement what they are writing.
Privacy protections are built in for users who access ChatGPT — their IP addresses are obscured, and OpenAI won’t store requests. ChatGPT’s data-use policies apply for users who choose to connect their account.
ChatGPT will come to iOS 18, iPadOS 18, and macOS Sequoia later this year, powered by GPT-4o. Users can access it for free without creating an account, and ChatGPT subscribers can connect their accounts and access paid features right from these experiences.
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Yes, thank you for proving my post correct? chatGPT is, again, a plugin in the Apple AI ecosystem, it is not built on chatGPT. Apple is running their own models both on device and in the cloud. chatGPT can be sent, with user permission, prompts and data but it's not by any means core to Apples AI implementation. Both your quotes support that.
Exactly.
Re: Apple is going to be using openAI (Score:2)
Apple is using on device AI models. When theyâ(TM)re not capable of it theyâ(TM)re using AI models on Appleâ(TM)s servers that they can control privacy on. When theyâ(TM)re not capable of it they present an alert to the user asking if theyâ(TM)d like to use OpenAI.
Cheap shot ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Judge them on what they actually will do. They can use OpenAI all they want as long as they do not feed my data back to OpenAI. They'll seed the model that way, and then would use my data to improve it further - locally. Question is: do I trust them to do it that way, i.e., keep my data local and non-accessible to others?? If they are open about it (pun very much intended), then sure, I can really consider doing that if people verify their approach. There is always risk. Just have to keep reading those user agreements at every update :-)
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How can a request be sent to openAI without sending query or any data to openAI?
They aren't using it, they make it accessible (Score:2)
They can use OpenAI all they want as long as they do not feed my data back to OpenAI.
Apple is not really using OpenAI, they are allowing you to access it through the device, for free. They said they envision other AI providers accessible in the same way, like a plugin.
All of the other Apple Intelligence stuff is using Apple trained models that either operate locally, or go to a secure cloud infrastructure Apple has developed and built with Apple hardware to prevent data leakage.
At least microsoft is transparent (Score:2)
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I'm curious about this - what ads does Apple sell? The only ads I see on Apple hardware are in those dumb shovelware games I can't seem to stop my kids from downloading on their iPads (screen time leaves a bit to be desired...).
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Screen time definitely leaves a lot to be desired... You can actually prevent those games from being installed by turning off the ability to install software at all. (When you do this, the app store icon will disappear entirely). However, this is an all or nothing feature and your kids will no longer be able to update any software, either. My kids ask me at least once or twice a week to update apps for them (which requires going into screen time, allowing app installation, going into the app store, runni
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about data grabbing and their users care about that. Apple is the hypocrite, they telll everyone they are 'protecting' user data when they serve up ads instead, although much more in the spirit of altruism because they don't sell the data, just the ads.
As Biden said to Trump: "Would you Shut Up, Man!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Sour grapes much, Apple? (Score:3)
The company that requires an expensive hardware purchase in order to use their software considers themselves a competitor to Microsoft? That's cute.
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Have you looked at the price of the devices that can run Microsoft Recall?
I honestly can't say I've looked at any of this AI stuff as a must-have feature. I was referring to Windows in general as it relates to commodity PC hardware. You've got to figure, Microsoft released the UI disaster that was Windows 8 and even that didn't cause a mass exodus to Apple's platform. Users just stuck with Windows 7.
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I didnt transition to Macs from Windows 8, cos i had already did it after I purchased a "Made for Vista" laptop and it bluescreened multiple times on day #1 , only to be told the lap didnt have the specs for Vista, and no I could not upgrade to windows XP. So I took the laptop back, and brought a mac, and never looked back.
(But I still have a windows PC for games, and Linux on my media server)
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Microsoft is requiring hundreds of millions of people and companies to make an expensive hardware purchase in order to use their OS.
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What fresh BS is this?
Where are they "requiring" this?
Did the meds stop helping suddenly?
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>Where are they "requiring" this?
why, just yesterday, three Microsoft goons game to my door with clubs and brass knuckles.
When I refused to buy hardware, they beat me unconscious.
Now I'm waiting in intensive care to find out whether or not enough is left of my thigh and shin bones for knee implants.
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Microsoft is requiring hundreds of millions of people and companies to make an expensive hardware purchase in order to use their OS.
Yep, I don't see it either.
Microsoft runs on cheap hardware.
Microsoft's licensing is terrible (CALs have basically meant renting licenses for decades now) but it'll run on a £300 laptop. Especially considering that when you're buying them by the 1000, £300 gets you more than you think.
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The company that requires an expensive hardware purchase in order to use their software considers themselves a competitor to Microsoft? That's cute.
You need to go Comparison Shopping, Doofus!
Listening to feedback is bad? (Score:2)
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Microsoft claimed that their AI processing for copilot+ was on device and if the OS was encrypted using bitlocker then the data was protected using bitlocker. Apple is making the same claim essentially and both can tie in to openAI/chatGPT. I don't trust either company to be honest about where or how my data would be shared. Both have proven to be liars about what they don't do with my data.
I wonder if (Score:1, Funny)
Pot kettle black (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is the company that wanted to use the devices owned by its customers to scan photos stored on them and report back to law enforcement.
I'm not a fan of Microsoft Recall either, but Apple has zero credibility or trust when it comes to user privacy.
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If you judge Apple, of all companies, to have a poor track record on security and privacy, then I respectfully suggest you stop using any digital devices. Clearly nothing short of total disconnection will suffice!
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Apple is the company that wanted to use the devices owned by its customers to scan photos stored on them and report back to law enforcement.
This is why cloud storage is so easy to accidentally use. They evaluate everything that goes into the cloud and report to law enforcement. The "they" here is not merely Apple, but Google, Microsoft, and every "cloud provider".
how about they address time machine failure? (Score:2)
I have friends who are apple users (mostly photographers) and some of them have complained about errors instead of success when trying to restore files from time machine backups. Apple should clean their own house.
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I have friends who are apple users (mostly photographers) and some of them have complained about errors instead of success when trying to restore files from time machine backups. Apple should clean their own house.
Details, please! I've seen only a few complaints on Apple's forums... I'd like to know if this is something to watch out for as I mind the store for a few hundred users who use Time Machine, including yours truly.
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I have friends who are apple users (mostly photographers) and some of them have complained about errors instead of success when trying to restore files from time machine backups. Apple should clean their own house.
Oooo!
I have had FAR more successes with Time Machine Restores than ANY PeeSee Backup Software, to any Media Type, and I've used far too many *Paid* (some really expensive!) Backup Packages than I can Remember! The only one that comes to mind is ArcServe. Massively Overpriced. Massively Over-Licensed. Couldn't Even reliably Restore from Hard Drive Backup Media!
I'm sure TM fails, too; but it is certainly no worse than anyone else; and in my Experience, Far Better overall.
In the clear images and mothership AI. (Score:3)
OK,
First off freely readable desktop snapshots. Yeah this is an instant NO. This is a huge privacy and secrets issue problem instantly. For how many years have we been trying to lock this leakage down? And bam it now a feature.
Then there is the AI bit. AI at the moment is pathetic and the controls around it are horrible. And it all reports up to the mother ship to do the "AI" work. Which means there is a constant stream of data of everything you are doing flowing up into a large corporations data vault. Absolutely no no. Unfortunately these poorly governed AI products are being snuck into everything now. I will resist the data upload as much as I can.
Unfortunately western countries are going to take years and years to formulate laws that govern this stuff. But unfortunately even this is less likely. As governments want to exploit this as much as anyone else at the moment. Both left and right leaning political types want to access this information. So I don't see a priority on putting in place governance laws for some time. Authoritarian countries will already be demanding unfettered access to this AI content.
Recall is a mash up of marketing ideas with rushed execution. At least Apple puts in a lot of effort crafting and moulding exact how they are going to exploit you.