DOJ Antitrust Lawsuit Says Apple Is Causing Android Users 'Social Stigma' (404media.co) 237
FrankOVD shares a report: Here's a paragraph from the DOJ's antitrust lawsuit against Apple in full: "In addition to degrading the quality of third-party messaging apps, Apple affirmatively undermines the quality of rival smartphones. For example, if an iPhone user messages a non-iPhone user in Apple Messages -- the default messaging app on an iPhone -- then the text appears to the iPhone user as a green bubble and incorporates limited functionality: the conversation is not encrypted, videos are pixelated and grainy, and users cannot edit messages or see typing indicators.
"This signals to users that rival smartphones are lower quality because the experience of messaging friends and family who do not own iPhones is worse -- even though Apple, not the rival smartphone, is the cause of that degraded user experience. Many non-iPhone users also experience social stigma, exclusion, and blame for 'breaking' chats where other participants own iPhones. This effect is particularly powerful for certain demographics, like teenagers -- where the iPhone's share is 85 percent, according to one survey. This social pressure reinforces switching costs and drives users to continue buying iPhones -- solidifying Apple's smartphone dominance not because Apple has made its smartphone better, but because it has made communicating with other smartphones worse."
"This signals to users that rival smartphones are lower quality because the experience of messaging friends and family who do not own iPhones is worse -- even though Apple, not the rival smartphone, is the cause of that degraded user experience. Many non-iPhone users also experience social stigma, exclusion, and blame for 'breaking' chats where other participants own iPhones. This effect is particularly powerful for certain demographics, like teenagers -- where the iPhone's share is 85 percent, according to one survey. This social pressure reinforces switching costs and drives users to continue buying iPhones -- solidifying Apple's smartphone dominance not because Apple has made its smartphone better, but because it has made communicating with other smartphones worse."
No (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
All that means is you're communicating via SMS.
No, it means that Apple are refusing to interoperate properly in order to drive more iPhone sales. Thing is, what's OK for a normal company is not OK for one that is large enough to distort the market. That's why antitrust laws exist.
Re: No (Score:2)
Why is Apple obligated to interoperate?
Re: No (Score:5, Informative)
Why is Apple obligated to interoperate?
Because the DoJ thinks their failure to do so is an antitrust violation.
https://www.investopedia.com/t... [investopedia.com]
This is the case regardless of aggressive downmodding as a "troll" from rabid Apple fanbois. Though I suppose since they go into a shit flipping monkey rage if someone doesn't worship Apple as hard as they do then anything even vaguely negative is trolling from their perspective.
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at the time I wrote that post, I was at -1 troll for daring to say that the holy Apple are beholden to stricter rules simply by virtue of size.
Apple fanbois are a tedious and rabid bunch. Your whinging about other fanbois doesn't make them any less so. You also seem to believe that the only alternative to rabid Apple fanbois is rabid Google fanbois. That's stupid. Maybe you should just stick to licking butts instead of offering opinions on antitrust.
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Apple deliberately inflicts pain on anyone using a non-Apple product, and then, like a spouse abuser, blames them for the pain.
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wrong. so wrong. but you know that, so carry on.
That's not much of a counter argument but then that's all you're capable of right?
Your parent poster is only wrong in that it's more than just about interoperability. Apple could make iMessage for Android like they do for other apps but they don't. https://play.google.com/store/... [google.com] Apple could stop intentionally blocking legitimate Apple product users from using beeper but they don't. Apple wants Apple product users locked into their platform and their hardware. Now that they're a mega-corp, it's no lo
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you think it's incumbent on a vendor that has less than 1/3 of the market
You misspelled 2/3. We're talking about the US here, where Apple has the largest market share.
Shouldn't it be the other way around,
What does that even mean? If you're going to cheer blindly in favour of megacorporations, at least be clear about what you expect.
This reeks of "your bicycle is now our bicycle, because we voted democratically and think it's unfair that you can go faster than we can."
No it doesn't because no one is making Apple give their phones away. Apple's phones are still Apple's phones. Your phone is still your phone. Neither Apple nor you are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want, wither before or after this.
Re: No (Score:5, Informative)
I bought my Android phone because the answer to every structural problem with iOS is "you can't do that, it's Apple's phone not yours, if you want to do that buy an Android phone".
But that doesn't help people locked into the iOS walled prison, with a bunch of apps there, and not allowed to install a meaningful app to transfer even their data.
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But that doesn't help people locked into the iOS walled prison, with a bunch of apps there, and not allowed to install a meaningful app to transfer even their data.
Google says that a lie. [android.com]
Re: No (Score:3)
You're not going to get malware from Google's app store. Maybe from "fly by night" app stores. If you purchase android phones that cost as much as iPhones, you're going to get OS updates.
Re: No (Score:3)
Google has delivered malware from the play store before.
However, apple has also delivered malware from the app store before. In fact every few months we discuss an article about malware currently found there. So that is not a differentiator, though apple fans want to believe otherwise.
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RCS exists. It works on non-Apple platforms. It is Apple's choice to not use the current generation industry standard communication protocol.
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Isn't that the downsides of SMS and IRC combined?
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The standardized version of RCS lacks a lot of features like encryption. Google added it to their proprietary version, but it was not in the basic one so why should Apple have supported a less secure protocol? And since Apple has already agreed to extend RCS via an open standards group so it will support encryption and other features, what is the purpose of this lawsuit?
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I wonder how much it costs carriers to sign up for GoogleRCS? Also, is it still only accessible via Messages, which requires the Play Store?
Google might be giving the DoJ some ideas that will come back to haunt them.
Re: No (Score:3)
Google uses the signal protocol, which is basically the gold standard of secure messaging. Apple doesn't even offer forward secrecy on imessage, which is a pretty basic thing.
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RCS exists. It works on non-Apple platforms. It is Apple's choice to not use the current generation industry standard communication protocol.
Which version of RCS do you refer? Universal Profile has only existed since 2016. It does not include encryption as part of the standard. Google RCS has encryption and other features that Google added but is not part of Universal Profile.
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Or, in other words, not using RCS.
This whole thing about green vs blue bubbles is reducing the problem beyond the point of being helpful.
Nobody cares about the color of the bubble, what they care about is the lack of rich text and multi-media features.
Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
I pointed this out days ago, and was modded troll for my trouble. The DOJ doesn't just spam accusations randomly, that would damage their case. They believe that the blue bubbles Apple displays for non-Apple users has creates a social stigma, especially among teens, and have hard evidence to back it up.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Funny)
So?
Is it illegal to make your own product more desirable than your competitor's products?
Don't all premium brands try to do that?
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Android users. Some of my best friends are Android users. Of course, I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one, but still, some of them are decent people.
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It may be illegal, according to the DOJ, when a company that has market dominance uses that position to prevent others competing with it.
That's the key thing here. It wouldn't matter if Apple had 20% of the market and most Apple users were getting loads of blue bubble messages. But when they have 95% of the market and the one kid whose parents couldn't afford an iPhone gets bullied for it, so every other maker is at a massive disadvantage, it becomes a problem.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Informative)
Please post a link which shows Apple's 95% domination of the US cell phone market.
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When I was a kid, lots of people had a real Sony Walkman. I had some POS from Sears. I survived the social stigma of having the unpopular device. Life turned out okay.
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Sony Walkman? I had to hum songs to myself and hope I was on key. Occasional remembered words were a luxury.
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No.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/26621... [ebay.com]
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I'm sure I wasn't cool enough to even have a conversation with Walkman people.
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All of which shows that the DoJ and virtually everyone else talking about this hasn't spoken to a teenager about their phone usage in about the last five years. Because *kids don't use texts*. They use SnapChat, Insta, etc. This whole thing is completely fucking absurd
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Unless what is being observed is that rich kids are being smug and teenagers are being shitty to each other. I don't think that's something Apple can be blamed for, and I know punishing Apple won't stop teens from being dicks.
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Where are the parents getting all that money? And why are they buying iPhones for their kids and Androids for themselves?
If they are like most teenagers I know, they get their parents old phone when their parents upgrade. That is until they can get a job. Then many of them have to pay for their new phone if they want Apple or Android or whatever.
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"A problem"? This is what we consider enough to make a literal Federal Case out of it?
This is utter lunacy, "social stigma" for elementary school kids?
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Slashdot probably isn't the best place to have this discussion. Every time there is a story about AI fake nudes, several people blame the victim and tell them to not get hung up on images that aren't even really them. I'm not singling you out, but some people here don't seem to understand social stigma.
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I know, I thought this might be from The Onion, but no, it's 'real' and people are crying in their closets because they don't have a certain color of bubble.
Please, O Giant Meteor, please come for us now!! Turn the Earth into gravel and free us from this crap, I beseech you!
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That's a terrible analogy. A better one would requiring you to wear Nike sneakers to walk on the pretty Nike branded footpaths in your neighborhood. Still rocking Converse? You're stuck using the old unmaintained footpath with mud puddles and potholes in it. Sure, you might trip and fall, but that's your damn fault for being poor and not being able to buy the "new" and "cool" shoes.
Meanwhile, Nike would also be trying to block any town legislation to fix the old footpaths because child rapists might use the
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Actually this is closer to we installed a new update on your "old" phone and now it is downgraded or slower. think like the battery update that slowed older Iphones down.
Since your friend is not using our product we could have sent it normal but we will downgrade it so your friend receives the crappy version, as intended.
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The DOJ doesn't just spam accusations randomly
If that were true, please explain this accusation, given that it's an allegation based on facts that have a technical basis.
the text appears to the iPhone user as a green bubble and incorporates limited functionality: the conversation is not encrypted, videos are pixelated and grainy, and users cannot edit messages or see typing indicators [...] Apple, not the rival smartphone, is the cause of that degraded user experience.
The green bubbles represent SMS messages, which have been the industry-wide messaging standard for decades. None of the "limited" functionality cited by the DOJ is supported via SMS, so how is Apple the cause of the degraded user experience?
And before anyone naively exclaims "they could have adopted RCS!":
(a) They are. Specifically the RCS Universal Profile, which is the open standard.
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Clearly the court should order both Apple and Google to allow developers to write whatever chat program they want, and allow people to install it.
Wait....
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And what exactly is a problem with that?
There's a social stigma associated with not having a proper TLS certificate for public facing website - so significant, in fact, that it will put a company out of business. For good reason. Browser manufacturers have assisted with this stigma generation.
Social pressure is a valid and legitimate means of impacting change. It is not illegal, or monopolistic. "Our product is cooler and more secure than yours".
I fail to see how this is at all relevant to the DoJ. What App
apple wants it both ways not compatible and locked (Score:2)
apple wants it both ways not compatible with others and locked down app store with dumb rules.
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And how is this different than the Google implementation? It fundamentally isn't.
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Beautiful girls dig abusive men. And this is no different. "Don't be evil" is for losers. "Be evil" is the new corporate mantra.
Message Colour Is Cost Indicator (Score:2)
Not everyone has an unlimited messaging bundle, especially when it comes to MMS, so showing things in different colours dependent on whether it's using the data plan, o
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If it was limited to "an old Android phone" that would be one thing, but they're doing this to any Android interaction regardless of how new it is.
And that's why it's stupid. They are relying on their own proprietary protocols and then denigrating anyone that isn't using their proprietary protocols.
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They're not doing anything to android phones (or messages to/from them). If I have my data turned off (like I do sometimes when I'm traveling) then messages that I send to *any* phone (Android, iPhone, dumb phone, whatever) are green bubbles. Because the green doesn't signify other than "SMS" and blue signifies "iMessage".
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It's also a security indicator. iMessage is encrypted between sender and receiver; SMS is not, and can be decrypted over the air by someone with a sniffer.
I started with the 2nd Android phone ever released (Score:2)
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I started with the HTC Dream badged as the T-Mobile G1. I miss the physical keyboard. I was a Palm Pilot user and the biggest advantage Android and Google's services offered were OTA synchronization and the ability to use any device with a web interface to perform updates to my phone's content, like calendars, contacts, maps, e-mail, etc.
The rest of this stuff is largely a matter of style to me, not of substance.
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Yeah, never purchased anything Apple created. Always been a PC and Android user. I am seriously considering going FOSS for my next phone.
the color does serve a useful purpose (Score:4, Insightful)
So I personally like knowing if my messages with someone are end to end encrypted.
If kids are hassling each other over this, as they do with nearly every other sort of trivial difference, that's on us for creating a society where kids think thats normal and ok. Making apple turn all bubble beige or whatever doesn't fix bullying.
There should be an open standard that all phones could use that supports all these features but it's not Apple that is stopping that from happening. It's telcos and of course the DOJ is totally against hard encryption for mobile devices.
Apple could I suppose release iMessages for Android although we already have Signal that sits in a similar role.
Re:the color does serve a useful purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
If kids are hassling each other over this ...
They're not.
I have teenage kids. They use messaging apps like WhatsApp and Viber.
SMS and iMessage are for old people.
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So I personally like knowing if my messages with someone are end to end encrypted.
So Apple should implement RCS correctly including supporting the end to end encryption that several RCS apps already use and update the colour to match iMessages. No need to convince everyone to migrate to yet another app.
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The kids with expensive things will look down on the kids with cheaper things. That appears to be unavoidable, and not cause for legal action against a company.
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So I personally like knowing if my messages with someone are end to end encrypted.
I agree. But that's why I use Threema or whatsapp and not some text messages on steroids contraption.
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Apple could either open iMessage for Android users (not going to happen based on how they reacted to Beeper) or they could add support for RCS and have everything work. Instead Apple's response is “Buy your mom an iPhone.” this is 100% an Apple created iSsue.
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It also lets me know the other part actually received the message. SMS usually goes through but I've had people receive something a week or even month after it was sent.
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As opposed to Android, which happily sends MMS messages to my not-paying-for-MMS phone and fails completely silently. I didn't even realize until my aunt sent me a picture of some tech problem and then asked my why I didn't reply.
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You mentioned Signal for filling the role on a good, neutral messaging client. The problem there is the iPhone version doesn't work well. Because Apple throttles it when the app isn't open, preventing it from checking for new messages. It's been like this for about six months. Which means Apple users don't get timely messages from
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There are serveal. A popular one is the Signal protocol. [wikipedia.org] It's implemented by several chat programs, including Signal itself, and WhatsApp. Both of those can be installed on any iPhone or Android phone, at least where allowed by law.
There's also XMPP, which is not only open, but is federated. There are many XMPP apps for both iPhone and Android.
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> So I personally like knowing if my messages with
> someone are
Same. And people are willfully ignoring the history of the iPhone here. In the beginning, ALL of those bubbles were green. The blue bubbles for iMessage signal the availability of additional features that are available in addition to standard SMS messaging, which is STILL supported, and has not been degraded in ANY way... a point about which these same people are actively lying. I could almost understand normies not knowing technical d
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You do know that the open version of RCS (The "universal profile") doesn't support end to end encryption.. right? You do know that the encryption-supporting version of RCS is Google proprietary and why would apple replace their own proprietary stuff with someone else's?
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That's silly.
OK, let's assume Apple does that - fully supports RCS.
How does Apple using RCS change anything here? RCS is not a fix, because it can't be encrypted. They could, and probably would (hopefully), still use the color bubbles to indicate one thing or the other so people don't accidentally leak sensitive data over the open airwaves.
RCS doesn't offer Apple users anything.
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Maybe you should look at a feature-by-feature comparison of RCS. Oh, and which RCS implementation? Google's? One of the carriers? If so, which one? Regardless, even if you take the most featureful RCS implementation available, it's still a downgrade versus iMessage. SMS, on the other hand, is universal and IS the standard. iMessage, RCS, whatever, are just sets of additional features on top of the standard. And I for one like my messaging the way it is. I don't WANT to downgrade to RCS. And, so fa
Boo fuckin hoo (Score:3)
OK, reverse the colours. Make iphone messages green and androids blue. Happy now?
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Obligatory Sneetches reference.
Android (Score:3)
When you can't compete, use the courts.
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Or... when you cannot compete with them using your brain, use your market dominant position to crush them under your morbidly obese butt. Fair, I would say.
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You say this sarcastically, but this is literally what antitrust law is about.
When one player is so dominant in a market that they are able to stifle competition, antitrust law kicks in. It's not (as you seem to imply) that Android is somehow inferior, it's that Apple's market dominance makes it such that others literally *can't* compete. If Apple were really interested in competing, they would do whatever they could to support the standards everyone else is using.
False flag (Score:4, Interesting)
As a cross-platform developer, I can tell you that Android is a godawful mess. That aside, I'm guessing that this is really a false flag and the DOJ actually is pissed that they can't backdoor iOS devices. Notice that no DOJ including this one is complaining that Windows has too big a market share and stigmatizes Mac users. That's the dog not barking.
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This is exactly correct and probably what's behind the EU requirement for alternative App Stores. If you can install your app without an Apple cert your off the races and Apple can't pull your app when it's found to be spyware. It's a simular reason behind the TikTok ban, they can't get the data like they can from Facebook and others.
Social stigma? (Score:2)
Social stigma? Really?
That's fucking pathetic. If not having a green or blue bubble or whatever is actually causing you 'social stigma', you need a therapist or you need to go outside and touch some grass.
FFS I can't even believe this is a 'news' story.
In other news, my laundry doesn't always get completely dry in the dryer. Can you imagine??
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I got picked on for not having the cool (expensive) shoes, clothes, binder, bookbag, etc. Did it suck? Yes. Did it happen to a lot of other kids? Yes. Does it still, because it's a part of human nature/development? Yes. Was it anyone's fault or legal liability? Nope.
Social stigma is nonsense (Score:2)
The real problems are...
Apple wants total control over how users use their devices, limiting what software they can run to the ones who pay the Apple tax
They have zero concern for backward compatibility, and intentionally make incompatible changes to sell more stuff
They wants to make repair impossible or prohibitively inconvenient
Their goal is to make expensive, disposable, fast fashion
They are the distilled essence of everything wrong with the current corporate system
The other way round (Score:2)
Anybody buying Crapple already gets what they deserve.
Always Android (Score:2)
So I've always been an Android user, and never owned an iPhone except the one that work made me carry for a year.
To be honest, I hadn't even noticed or heard of the whole green vs blue bubble thing until this came up in the news recently. The major complaint my wife, a dedicated Apple person, has is that she can't Facetime me. To me this is a feature, not a bug. :)
Far, far more important to me is the usurious fees charged by both Apple and Google via their respective app stores. I'm all in favor of the gov
Simple example illustrating why this is dumb. (Score:2)
So, what the hell is the DOJ thinking? Do they really think Apple is to blame for normal, albeit unpleas
They're right (Score:2)
And (Score:2)
Let's assume I'm the biggest anti-trust fan, and reflexively cheer on every last thing out of some bureaucrat's throat.
Me: What's going on?
Bureaucrat: "Many non-iPhone users also experience social stigma..."
Me: That seems weak.
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What is really scary is the 'help help I am being oppressed' crowd thinks that an America where the DOJ comes after you for what colorizing text bubbles wrong is going to result in less oppression.
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Mercedes and Porsche weren't illuminating indicator lamps denigrating other vehicles on the road as one drove around.
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Yeah I was beat as a child therefore I actively looked forward to having children of my own so I can beat them too. We must foster a society where we pass down all norms to the next generation. At no point should we ever change anything because of what *we* experienced. /s
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Why should have there been a suit?
Did Mercedes and Porsche do anything to stigmatize Honda? No? See, that's why.
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"Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?"
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RCS doesn't support end to end encryption... only google's *proprietary* extension does.
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RCS does not support all those security features. Google's proprietary extended version of RCS does.
RCS itself isn't really open. Maybe "open." It's proprietary, owned by the GSMA. You can read the standard if you want, but you're supposed to license it. If you implemented it you might or might not get sued, and you still couldn't talk to anyone.
Feelings! (Score:2)
The DOJ is concerned about people's feelings?
It's shit like this that makes people want to vote for Trump.
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Exactly. Trump is a deeply flawed individual - but this is a monstrous misuse of government power to crush a successful company.
They are kids, they shouldn't have a cell phone in the first place. And, kids will stigmatize each other over any trivial difference they can find. This is not a new phenomenon.
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So, is your approach fair? Are your assumptions reasonable or accurate? Would you tell someone to f-k off because their car was in the shop and the rental agency gave them a Tesla?
Long story short, you're "Affirming the Consequent", to the claimed detrim
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What's are the odds of these corner cases happening? Agreed, there will be some noise. But hey, you have a great good candidate filter here.
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