Elon Musk Says Apple's App Store Fee is Equivalent To '30% Tax On Internet' 211
Elon Musk likened Apple and its App Store to the equivalent of a "30% tax on the Internet" and said the fee is "10 times higher than it should be," in a series of tweets responding to a Slashdot tweet about the European Union's latest antitrust complaint against the tech giant
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Technically it's 30% tax (Score:5, Informative)
You have other choices.
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Technically, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of apps exist today because of iOS demand.
When you want to argue about choice, speak to the developer of your apps. You might find they carry around a shiny Apple pocket device by force.
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Technically, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of apps exist today because of iOS demand.
That is prolly because Safari sucks.
Most apps are just glorified version of the company website.
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Almost all apps exist today to create revenue streams by selling you as the actual product. Doesn't matter what flavor of tracking turd you carry around in your pocket, that fact exists across the app universe.
And damn near everyone has an HTTP(S) alternative. That excuse died when the internet turned 20 years old.
(Everyone under 25) "Browser? The fuck is a browser?"
Re: Technically it's 30% tax (Score:2)
Glorified?
When you discover that an app is a great way to track you better than using your web cookies you might realize that an app is worse.
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If your answer is that their customers choose to use Apple devices, well, then pass the cost to the customer - it is the customer's choice to use Apple. There are always costs of providing service for a brand and that cost should be included in the price of the product. If you want to service any Tesla, you have to pay Elon's company t
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You might find they carry around a shiny Apple pocket device by force.
By the force of whom or what?
Re: Technically it's 30% tax (Score:2)
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I hae an iPhone. Once I purchased it I have not given any additional money to Apple, not even a single penny, and I have not purchased any apps for which Apple will take a cut.
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Apple fanbois aren't human.
When you use Apple app store (Score:4, Insightful)
On an iPhone, you could still use a lot of the Internet via browser apps (formerly called websites,)
Or you could switch to an Android device, and use slightly less curated and verified apps from the Play Store, at a slightly lower price, or you could take the risk and get your apps for free from some other random app store or sideload. Or you could use mobile websites. It's a pretty extreme exaggeration to say that the Apple App Store is a tax on the internet.
You're paying for curation (slighty better quality of prominent apps experience) etc. Or you can use the wild west internet for free. How is this not choice?
Re: When you use Apple app store (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of all - you are paying for a status brand.
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Most of all - you are paying for a status brand.
Not true; but even if it was:
My money; my choice.
FUCK OFF!!!
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Re: When you use Apple app store (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say the opposite, the Apple UI is nice for beginners but you hit the wall when you are constrained by what Apple decides what's good for you.
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Exact opposite of my experience. Every time I have to use an iOS device I'm irritated.
Could Musk be a slashdotter? (Score:3)
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I don't know if he reads the comments though. I have noticed a correlation sometimes, but never anything that can't be attributed to coincidence.
If it's him... (Score:2)
... then he'll buy /. 2! ;)
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We’re up to page 30 now.
https://m.dailykos.com/stories... [dailykos.com]
Forced switch from single store to mall owner (Score:2, Informative)
All the digital platforms, be it Google's Android play store, Apple's mac/ios app store, Microsoft's Windows and Xbox store, Sony's Playstation store, etc, should be forced to switch from a store to an open mall model, with the platform provider hosting it own stores upon the mall in competition with anyone else being able to set up a store on the same platform.
With the exception of the platform providers own store and own apps, platform providers do do not get revenue direct from app creators/software vend
can an mall stop an legal adult video store? (Score:2)
can an mall stop an legal adult video store?
can an mall make an arcade review each game one by (Score:2)
can an mall make an arcade review each game one by one?
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Using the mall analogy that you started, I have heard of malls that charge shops a lease and they must also pay a percentage of their revenue.
If a market is able to live with a cost, and the bigger company (the mall company) can demand it from a position of strength, they will likely be able to get away with it.
In fact nearly every Mall and Shopping Center has a Percentage of Gross Sales provision in their Lease, as well as a Per-Square Foot/Meter charge. Generally, it is around 10-20%, BTW.
And that has been standard for several decades in the U.S., at least.
What is the ridiculous price of his cars? (Score:2)
Oh, Good (Score:2)
What do you give up to get to 10x? (Score:3)
So, given that Apple does in fact have really large profit margins in general, I'm inclined to agree that 30% is probably high. but 10x? That seems a little silly.
What is provided for that 30% isn't insubstantial. The argument, I suppose, is whether Apple should have the margins they have, not whether they are commensurate with the benefits derived by the seller.
To accommodate a 90% reduction in revenue, what would need to be given up for the App Store to remain reasonably profitable? I mean in real terms.
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So, given that Apple does in fact have really large profit margins in general
Why focus on that? Why does the existence of high profit margins for a company require them to make a loss-leader? How does Apple's profit margin affect the 30% cut of Google, Gog, Microsoft, or Steam? How does Epic Game's lower cut causing them to actually lose money on the store weigh in on your point?
Mall owner charges rent for shops wanting to setup in mall, boo fucking hoo. No one is forcing a developer / company to make an iOS app and charge for it.
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What is provided for that 30% isn't insubstantial.
What the fuck is provided for 30% though? Content hosting for the binary download I guess?
The thing you have to remember is that Apple throws a ton of hoops in the way of you releasing something on their App Store. Until you've been through the process (and technically I haven't, I've just been involved in a project that tried and failed to get something fucking tested which involves going through a partial App Store process), you don't realize how much bullshit there is to dealing with Apple and the App St
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And yet how many apps are on the App Store? Seems like if you tried and failed, the hundreds of thousands of successes might imply the problem is you? Apple makes nothing if your app is not published. It's in their best interests for it to be available. They don't put up barriers to their own revenues.
Content hosting, payment management, the perception that your app has been "vetted" and curated, a sales provider that's generally trusted and whom the send users don't question, availability to a potential cl
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Apple makes nothing if your app is not published. It's in their best interests for it to be available.
Sure, but equally, they don't care if your app is published. As long as they have apps in every category, and people are paying, the system is working.
Content hosting, payment management, the perception that your app has been "vetted" and curated, a sales provider that's generally trusted and whom the send users don't question, availability to a potential client bases of many, many millions of folks who statistically pay for apps more consistently than any other platform...
These things aren't valueless.
Clearly not, because people are still choosing to make apps for iOS. The real question though is whether Apple's policies actually benefit users, or harm them. Since there's no need to prevent sideloading to do all the things they normally do in the name of security (with the understanding that sideloaded apps may compromise the system) it's clearly for Apple
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So, given that Apple does in fact have really large profit margins in general, I'm inclined to agree that 30% is probably high. but 10x? That seems a little silly.
So does that obscene pile of cash they're sitting on. You can at least try and pretend you're not talking about one of the world's wealthiest companies. Like Big Oil, they didn't get that way by sipping on Capitalism.
And the concept of reasonably profitable is able to be grasped at Apple about as well as giving and sharing on Wall Street.
No it's not (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple computer and the iPhone one with Google and Android are still vast improvements over the state of cell phones and cell phone development before Apple jumped in with the iPhone and Google followed. I remember looking into a dev kit to make little mobile apps and finding I would have to pay one of the major carriers 10 or 15,000 dollars. And I would have to do that for each carrier. I can go out tomorrow and spend around 12 to $1,500 on Apple hardware or about half that on PC hardware and get started on mobile development.
And if musk doesn't like it maybe he should have saved some of that $44 billion he just blew on Twitter and spent it making his own cell phone OS.
Isn't that what I just said? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's almost as if money is powered and having a near unlimited supply of money means you have nearly unlimited power. What's strange is how the small government right wing loves giving unlimited power to a handful of individuals and never questions it.
I mean I get trolling is fun but is giving up all the real world power worth it so you can own the libs? I don't know maybe it is but are you actually happy with the way your life is now? And you think people is powerful as the CEO of Tesla don't have some effect on why you're doing troll posts on a tiny website like slash Dot...
I'm just saying you should start the question who your real friends are and who your real enemies are.
Make Apple pay their taxes (Score:2)
If we actually required the American mega-corporations to pay taxes, and enforced the tax laws, then it would be a moot point. People could pay a lot for services, but the corporations would pay us back.
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...People could pay a lot for services, but the corporations would pay us back.
It's practically cute you assume the end result of this, would actually be a gift of lower taxes that would make it all the way down, into the wallets of The People.
Capitalism much?
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American corporations paid $370 billion in federal taxes last year. How much more do you want and what are you going to do with it?
How much more, has already been defined in tax code. Corrupt loopholes keep most of that profit floating out on a tax-exempt island.
As far as what to do with it? Not sure why we're even asking that question anymore. Buy better leadership. It would probably help everyone.
Time for the Muskphone (Score:2)
It's a free market. He's free to take his billions and spin a cell phone company and app store out of thin air. Seems to have worked well with the car company.
Musk Adjusts Himself - Slashdot Jumps on Story (Score:3)
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Lot of people here with his nuts on their chin.
Does Everything He Says Need to Be a Story (Score:2)
Really, why make every Tweet to be a story or post. Who cares what this doofus thinks. He clearly just says random shit most of the time without thinking.
Also, Apple/Google/Valve/etc. do a lot for their cut. Credit Card fees, charge-backs, hosting, very limited QA, offset the cost for the free stuff, etc. While yeah 30% will be too much, but I'm sure 3% they would lose money, or have to drastically cut back services/features.
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Conservatives love to idolize the shittiest people, it's bizarre
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Just look in the toilet. I will bet large amounts of money that the faeces of Elon Musk are no more interesting than those of Mark Twain (if any of the latter are still extant).
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I was under the impression that he only shits on politicians who shit on him regardless of party.
I was pretty sure that he mostly just wants to make cool stuff and have fun and only bothers with actual politics when they block him building stuff and having fun.
Though, it strikes me that buying Twitter was kind of a major punch in the face to Trump.
Re:Musk is the new Twain (Score:4, Funny)
People have been going to space for decades now and electric cars are over a century old.
Re: Musk is the new Twain (Score:2)
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Musk AND ALL THE REST OF THE TEAM, many of whom are actual rocket scientists unlike Musk.
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Musk AND ALL THE REST OF THE TEAM, many of whom are actual rocket scientists unlike Musk.
Don't forget, before Musk and SpaceX, most of the same actual rocket scientists were saying that it was not possible to land a rocket and reuse it.
So not only do you have to get a bunch of smart people, but you got to get them to believe in your idea / vision / work. No use if you manage to get a bunch of smart people and most of them walk off, saying that you are out of your mind.
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And they were right as the technology wasn't there yet. Lots of computing power needed to co-ordinate those small engines and keep the rocket upright as it lands on a small target.
Even today, to get the maximum payload into space means a one way trip too.
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Musk is the hustler, has a lot of his own spare change, and is damned good at finding investors (look at how he pooled the money together to buy a majority stake in Twitter). He didn't actually design those rockets, or the cars for that matter.
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Yeah, because I totally remember NASA landing Titan-II boosters after sending Gemini capsules into orbit, refurbishing them, and launching them again another 10+ times with zero failures.
Similarly, I totally remember electric cars of the 1920s having a 300+ mile range, recharging in an hour or less, having room for 4+ adults and the capability of driving at 70 mph for several hours at a time.
Holy shit you're stupid.
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You have just disagreed with someone's claim that these aren't novel, and then very explicitly described iterative improvements, thus backing up that person's point.
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Technology improves over time, who knew.
Funny enough, the Gemini capsule was designed to be re-used, then it was decided that the technology had improved enough that instead of multiple missions to spy on the Soviets, it was a lot simpler to use spy satellites. IIRC, there was one capsule re-used.
And even today, if you want a big load in orbit, it is a one way mission for SpaceX to do it.
Re:Be reasonable, or at least honest (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, then what's so special about Mark Twain? He just wrote some words on paper and also gave some lectures. That's pretty much what he's widely known for. By comparison an 11 year old does these things in grade school, and it was nothing new in his time either.
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Well, then what's so special about Mark Twain?
He appears in a couple Star Trek: TNG episodes.
It's the same reason Steven Hawking and Albert Einstein are famous.
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Oddly enough I was thinking about those TNG episodes while I was typing my post.
Re:Be reasonable, or at least honest (Score:4, Insightful)
Musk seems like the replacement for Steve Jobs. Some concept - assing 100% of a company's accomplishments to a single person, then worship that person. Steve Jobs, according to the mythology, did all the work at Apple and he only hired the other 150,000 employees so that the buildings didn't feel so empty. Now Musk is in the same mythology realm and has inherited the reality distortion field - he invented space flight, he invented the electric car, he builds them himself, or at least micromanages every aspect, he is an acknowledged expert in all scientific and technological fields, and now he's also due to win the first Pultizer Prize for Twitter posting.
You know, sometimes these idols turn out to be mere humans. There's nothing wrong with merely being human.
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So, in reality, both Jobs and Musk are more like Thomas Edison, who took (and got) credit for a lot of things a bunch of hired engineers and researchers created. This is pretty typical behavior for major industrialists. The one thing that people like Edison, Ford, Jobs and Musk all have in common is that there rather good at getting smart people in room, and then selling the shit out of whatever they produce. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but there's a kind of mythology that often accrues to inve
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Re:Musk is the new Twain (Score:4, Insightful)
Managing a business is not an impressive feat worthy of praise. Most people who manage businesses are shit people who make the lives of those around them worse
From what I've read about working conditions at Tesla and SpaceX, Elon is definitely among the worst
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I'm not going to denigrate CEOs too much. Management isn't nothing. Even the Soviets discovered that you can't just take guys from the shop floor, put them in office, and still have a productive factory. A good CEO is part salesman, part manager, part prognosticator. And those are critical talents, as can be evidenced by how quickly bad CEOs can drive a business into the ground. Musk's problem to some extent is how erratic his public persona can be, but at the same time, he clearly has a knack for the criti
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Elon Musk is not a CEO for hire (like a Carly Fiorina, or a Mark Hurd). He has contributed to Paypal as a founder, founded SpaceX and also a co-founder of Tesla (yes, I know he wasn't in the original list, but he joined early enough to qualify).
Elon Musk didn't just manage a business (or three). He has built three businesses, putting his own money at risk for two of those businesses (Tesla and SpaceX). He could have lost it all, and for that reason alone (aside from his technical chops - he was chief rocket designer at SpaceX early on and possibly still is for example).
Elon Musk is not the guy you hire to run your company.
Amazing then, that he doesn't have enough knowledge of business costs to know that Apple isn't just acting as a Payment Processor (implied by his 3% figure).
And besides, his "Apple Tax" meme is all pretty rich, coming from the CEO of a car company charging $199 per month for a "Full Self-Driving" Subscription For his Killer Cars!
Re: Musk is the new Twain (Score:2)
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Musk is not a rocket designer.
In the words of musk, "I wanted it more pointy, so I told them to make it more pointy".
Bam. Rocket designed, bitches.
Give me a fucking break.
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Well, sure, but are those really *Musk's* accomplishments? I don't want to minimize his leadership contributions, but Musk calling himself "Chief Engineer" of SpaceX is a little rich.
He's a lot like Steve Jobs, who did a lot of good things for Apple's corporate management like streamlining their product line and outsourcing manufacturing, but will forever be remembered as the "creator of the iPhone".
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Well it's interesting how you've cut Woz out of the Apple origin story, but nothing you say here contradicts my point is that people think Steve Jobs "created" the iPhone and have no idea who Jonathan Ive, Scott Forstall or Tony Fadell are. Probably most people these days have no idea who Steve Wozniak is and they certainly have never heard of Jerry Manock.
People are not sophisticated about what it takes to create a computer or a smartphone or a rocket ship, so they do what they always do when faced with s
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Well it's interesting how you've cut Woz out of the Apple origin story
They all do it, and it frosts the Hell out of me!
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Liberals can't recognize actual accomplishment, quite bizarre. I guess that's why they hate anyone successful and try to destroy them.
He's been successfully running more than one business which are doing amazing things for not just America but the human race as a whole. Certainly.
However, it also seems like he's shaking hands and giving high fives to the people that want to institute a theocracy in the US.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with him doing the second thing even though he's been doing the first thing. That's where I'm at.
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Probably you should read that as "When mMusk produces something spoken even close to what Twain has said." Because if you dismiss Twain as a nobody who didn't create a new car and who isn't a billionaire, it's meaningles. Musk says a lot, but he does not say witty things, he doesn't say insightful things, he doesn't say anything thought provoking, instead he just does a lot of twitter while sitting on the crapper.
He's taken a lot of money and plowed it into a few new technologies; that is great. But the i
Re: Musk is the new Twain (Score:5, Funny)
What happened? Musk's ex left him for a trans women and he had a mid life crisis, went conservative and blew 40 billion bucks on a company that makes no money and will make no money. Never mind WAP, a chick with a dick railing your ex can turn you fascist.
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Let's keep in mind not all that money is actually his. A lot of palms were greased to get him the mother lode to buy Twitter. That in itself is ana accomplishment, even if it's one more worthy of Count Victor Lustig.
Re:Musk is the new Twain (Score:5, Insightful)
I actually disagree with him pretty strongly this point, however I think it's really awesome that America once again has a national pundit at the level of Mark Twain, where every random thing he says is reported on breathlessly across the land.
I'd also disagree with this. This a store front fee and there are certainly retail stores that will tag on 50%, especially in the context of clothing. It has even been previously stated that 30% was actually lower than some other stores at the time.
BTW can any third-party add an app store to Tesla? Just getting tired of hypocrisy of one business complaining about Apple or Google's app stores and then going off an doing the same on their own hardware.
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BTW can any third-party add an app store to Tesla? Just getting tired of hypocrisy of one business complaining about Apple or Google's app stores and then going off an doing the same on their own hardware.
There isn't a Tesla app store on Teslas. So that's a bad comparison.
The fact that Tesla has no app store at all would support Apple's argument that app stores require engineering investment and maintenance to create and therefore they deserve to be compensated for their developments which is a fair complaint.
But it's not fair to criticize every object on earth that has no app store. That would be like complaining that my Linux (I assume) powered smart thermostat should offer an app store because it has mem
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BTW can any third-party add an app store to Tesla? Just getting tired of hypocrisy of one business complaining about Apple or Google's app stores and then going off an doing the same on their own hardware.
There isn't a Tesla app store on Teslas. So that's a bad comparison.
The fact that Tesla has no app store at all would support Apple's argument that app stores require engineering investment and maintenance to create and therefore they deserve to be compensated for their developments which is a fair complaint.
But it's not fair to criticize every object on earth that has no app store. That would be like complaining that my Linux (I assume) powered smart thermostat should offer an app store because it has memory and an operating system.
Careful!
Don't let the EU hear you; or not only will they demand an App Store for your Thermostat; but that it should allow Sideloading of Android Apps!
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Honesty, I see no issues at all with a law that required smart devices to allow owners be able to upload their own soft/firmware. Leave those JTAG ports exposed!
Go visit Hackaday. They love reverse-engineering SmartGadgets!
Musk's E-bay often charged 30% fees (Score:3)
I note that when musk was working with e-bay and PayPal the fees between these two companies often were 30% of the item price
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I think Musk deserves credit for having the foresight to buy Tesla and then push the company into the forefront of the public's consciousness.
But while my next car purchase will almost certainly be electric, it's unlikely to be a Tesla. That F150 Lightning looks pretty interesting, however.
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I think Musk deserves credit for having the foresight to buy Tesla
Musk "bought Tesla" when it was two businessmen and a trademark who planned to commercialize a third party's EV drivetrain by electrifying an existing car.
By that definition of car companies EVWest is a "car company". https://www.evwest.com/catalog... [evwest.com]
The original plan to just slightly modify an existing car body to fit the existing EV Kit was going off the rails but one of those two businessmen (CEO) concealed the scale of the problems and lied to the board of directors (including Elon) about the state of
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I think Musk deserves credit for having the foresight to buy Tesla and then push the company into the forefront of the public's consciousness.
But while my next car purchase will almost certainly be electric, it's unlikely to be a Tesla. That F150 Lightning looks pretty interesting, however.
Especially with that NASCAR-Class Acceleration!
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car manufacturers don't take 30% of tolls, gas, parking fees after the sale.
don't take 30% of all non dealer service
don't take 30% of XM radio
don't take 30% of an car wash.
don't take 30% of license, title fees, sticker fees.
don't take 30% of food delivery cost
don't take 30% of an uber ride.
If you are insinuating that Apple charges a fee for any of that, you are mistaken.
Disregarding your facetious entries of Car Wash, and Dealer Fees (etc), Apple takes no Commission on:
Non-Dealer-Service, Food Delivery Fees, or Uber Rides.
They may charge a Commission on a Sirius XM Subscription (30% 1st year; 15% thereafter); but that is also 100% in-line with Google; so why single-out Apple?
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where every random thing he says is reported on breathlessly across the land.
Look, he might not have a formal education in the matter at hand, but he did buy Holiday Inn Express last night.
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You used that replying to my post the other day about Musk https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org] .
Get a new joke!
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You used that replying to my post the other day about Musk https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org] .
Get a new joke!
I really need to give myself more credit.
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He'll leave the light on in the Tesla for you?
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Well, yes, but only if you do not require any kind of actual insight. You know, unlike Twain.
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It seems he's the reverse of Twain, Musk being a better entrepreneur (as of this year at least) than a writer. I was actually quite surprised that Twain actually did some science and inventing on the side and was acquainted with infamous rivals Edison and Tesla [wikimedia.org]. Hm, maybe he is a better inventor than Musk, who has a veritable army of employees to craft his rockets and EVs.
I like to think of Musk as this generation's Von Braun, an immigrant like Musk, whose morality is focused on a long-term view of humanity
Re: Musk is the new Twain (Score:2)
When the governments start to look at these transactions they'll tax them too, so expect a 25% VAT on top. That would bring the price to $1.625 for a $1 item.
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A 19th century socialite, even a wealthy one, had a better connection to the common man then the 21st century ultra rich businessman.
While I expect Musk thinks what he is doing is helping the common man, and many of his endeavors do seem to push towards general progress that we wanted for decades, where there were stonchy old companies and ideas holding it back. Being that he has gotten Ultra Wealthy and has a lot of Power from that wealth has really disconnected him from the actual average person.
Sure Tes
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Someone didn't grok the summary
Boy, that's no shit!
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There's a gas station outside my neighborhood that regularly charges about $0.50 more per gallon than the going rate in the nearby area. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, because no one is forced to buy gas from them.
It's not like that with Apple. If you want to sell your iOS apps, Apple's app store is your one and only option. Yeah, you can always say "just use Android", but granting Google a de facto monopoly because Apple willingly chose not to compete in the realm of allowing sideloading, isn't really a better option.
Just use Android.
Adults vote with their feet. Babies just throw tantrums and expect Mommy to fix it.
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I don't. I posted exactly the SAME argument a few times already during the past few years. It's a tax. The fact there are other "Android territories" doesn't make it less of a tax. What he said is not a random thing. Imagine that the company that controls the endpoints (VR, TV, watch, mobile) for a very significant number of people, effectively acts like a government and can levy taxes. That's because Apple isn't a normal company, it's a monopoly platform on a large chunk of the population, and no, people would prefer to live in some other country rather than switch mobile phones.
Tough shit. Grow up and quit whining!
We like it here. What in the HOLY FUCK is so wrong with THAT?!?
How does it affect ONE SINGLE ANDROID USER?!?
Answer that, Dickhead.
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Yea, I don't get the appeal of the Fifth Element villain at all.
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Well, he was funny for a while, but these days he is mostly predictable and boring. Some of the people he hired are doing pretty cool tech though.
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Saying that Apple overcharges for a service is not very right-wing, is it? I mean, you'd think the stance would be Apple has the right to charge what it wants for its service.
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It's exactly typically right-wing, in that Musk wants to monetize twitter [protocol.com] by charging for more things, and he'll have to give Apple a piece of that — so he's talking about how "unfair" it is, because anything that interferes with profits is "unfair" to corporatists. It's not like he cares about it on principle. Consequently you can agree with his statement without actually agreeing with him...
Re: Elon musk is honest (Score:2)
Musk is at least amusing even when you disagree with his opinion.
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Re:Curmudgeonly grognards (Score:2)