Jose Andres: Apple Maps Was Sending Me Into Russian-Controlled Territory (axios.com) 92
Chef Jose Andres has relied heavily on technology as part of his humanitarian work in Ukraine, feeding thousands of people displaced by the Russian invasion. But he has a few gripes as well, including the fact that Apple Maps kept sending him to Russian-controlled areas. From a report: "Don't send people to enemy territory in a war," he told me in a brief interview after his appearance at the Axios What's Next Summit in Washington, D.C. Andres and his organization World Central Kitchen rely on satellite technology not just to personally navigate, but also to keep tabs on volunteers. While Apple did not immediately respond to a request for comment, it's likely a big challenge to keep detailed, up-to-date maps of who is controlling which territory.
Outside the scope (Score:5, Insightful)
This might be reasonably seen as being outside the scope of what a maps app is trying to do.
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For one thing it requires the app to keep track of what territory is held by who. But it's not *generally* out of the scope of the app's functionality to warn the user of hazards.
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define hazards - not a single mapping application on the market warns you about warzones.
Re: Outside the scope (Score:1)
It's not unreasonable to have a feature that identifies routes leading to turnarounds or failed arrivals. You don't need to identify war zones. You need to identify network disruptions.
Re: Outside the scope (Score:2)
I don't know about you, but if Maps sends me into a war zone, I'm gonna turn around. To each his own I guess.
If an unexpected road closure leads to 98% of the regular traffic not making it through, Google seems to be able to handle it just fine. It can see that no one's making it through and it adjusts the route.
It's not trivial, but this shit isn't rocket science.
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In a warzone that's going to be extremely difficult...
Areas controlled by each side will be changing rapidly, as well as hot spots where there is active fighting.
Both sides will be keen to restrict information so that the enemy doesn't become aware of their positions.
Both sides will be keen to spread misinformation in an attempt to mislead the enemy.
Communication lines could be damaged by the fighting, or intentionally sabotaged.
Re: Outside the scope (Score:2)
Actually, my biggest concern would be how accurate the clustering is. If they cluster you with those fleeing the conflict, great. If they cluster you with the Russians or some forward Ukraine combat unit, that's less ideal.
But broadly this is the same problem as providing walking vs driving directions.
easier with Waze (Score:5, Funny)
Waze would only need minor changers.
"Tank reported in .5 miles."
"Still there?"
"You haven't responded. Are *you* still there"
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That's not even a joke. If Waze can keep people updated on rapidly changing road conditions, they can keep people updated on rapidly changing road conditions. "Stopped by friendly checkpoint, road ahead is contested by Russians." etc.
Chef needs more new app. (Score:2)
It's just a big button labeled "am I still a dumbass?". The proprietary algorithm computes and decides that if you trust an app to be accurate then you must be a dumbass.
Re:Outside the scope (Score:4, Funny)
Think of all the Russian troops trying to navigate with the app who want to stay in Russian controlled territory!
Re: Outside the scope (Score:3)
Watch out for the Spectral Wolf (Score:3)
Re:Outside the scope (Score:4, Funny)
Well, then you have a checkbox: "are you a Russian trying to get to Russian territory?" and "are you a Russian trying to escape from Russian territory?"
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I wonder if lawyers looking to sue aren't behind this.
Next up: Apple maps doesn't show large pieces of rubble in the streets, blown up bridges.
Re:Outside the scope (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering things like "only offer directions on roads that exist" and "only offer legal turns" and "don't direct me to an entirely different city than the one I entered" are evidently outside the scope of Apple Maps, expecting them to keep track of who controls what territory seems a bit, er, optimistic.
Apple Maps sole goal appears to be not paying Google money for a maps product that works. Providing up to date maps with working directions with useful traffic data is evidently still out of scope, since it still doesn't.
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Considering things like "only offer directions on roads that exist" and "only offer legal turns" and "don't direct me to an entirely different city than the one I entered" are evidently outside the scope of Apple Maps, expecting them to keep track of who controls what territory seems a bit, er, optimistic.
Anecdote on this exact topic. My parents used to try to use Siri to get directions and no one had configured their phones to not use Apple Maps. They would ask Siri for directions to "Fort Wayne, Indiana" (where I live) and Siri/Apple Maps would proceed to provide directions to Fort Wayne [wikipedia.org] in Detroit, Michigan, despite them properly enunciating the word "Indiana" with plenty of time in Siri's listening window available.
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They would ask Siri for directions to "Fort Wayne, Indiana" (where I live) and Siri/Apple Maps would proceed to provide directions to Fort Wayne [wikipedia.org] in Detroit, Michigan, despite them properly enunciating the word "Indiana" with plenty of time in Siri's listening window available.
It's actually worse than that. I can't give a specific example because it appears it pick the destination address it provides directions to based on where you are and where the map is scrolled to and possibly time of day or whatever (which is to say, it's incredibly inconsistent), but I remember driving from one city to another and needing to end up in a parking garage, so someone looked up a parking garage on their iPhone. Tapping on the placemark on the map and getting directions to that placemark would p
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I still remember launch day. Apparently my major city of 2.2million people was in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Ahhh good times. It's good to see Apple has gotten marginally better, but really there's nothing they could have done to make it any worse since they didn't have maps of the moon.
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The next version of the complaint is that Apple Maps isn't misdirecting Russian soldiers with fake map data, to send them back to Russia.
Re: Outside the scope (Score:5, Insightful)
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1) You should use software that doesn't require a connection for getting maps (anywhere that it is important)
2) You should have a good understanding of where you are and back-up maps (anywhere that is remote or dangerous)
3) You should be prepared for conditions (winter break-down essentials where it's cold, water and shade when you're in hot/arid regions)
What? You were expecting a snarky remark about flack jackets and armored vehicles? Yeah, usually, but this $#!+ is just getting ol
Uh, don't go to a war zone (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the first thing you should do is avoid a war zone. Then the next thing would be to stop and turn around when you see a bunch of soldiers firing their weapons.
Re: Uh, don't go to a war zone (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Uh, don't go to a war zone (Score:2)
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Maybe the first thing you should do is avoid a war zone.
Personally I think it would be hard for him to feed thousands of refugees in Ukraine from his home base of Washington D.C. Call me crazy but I feel that would be difficult to do.
Then the next thing would be to stop and turn around when you see a bunch of soldiers firing their weapons.
Yes because front lines never change in any battle whatsoever. All military conflicts have rigid front lines.
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Realistically speaking, he's not feeding thousands of refugees personally.
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yes, i believe that is the very logical point that mveloso is making.
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Refugees aren't in Ukraine (Score:2)
In any case the Ukrainian refugees aren't in Ukraine, they're in other countries. If he's coordinating refugee food he shouldn't be in the Ukraine, he should be "somewhere else."
Re:Refugees aren't in Ukraine’s (Score:2)
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Western Ukraine does not have any Russian controlled territory. All of that is in Eastern Ukraine.
The west has only seen long range missile strikes.
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[more sarcasm] yes, as a CHEF i should travel to a war torn country in the middle of battle to personally help distribute food [/more sarcasm]
tell me again what CHEF ANDRES is doing personally that he needs to be in the middle of a war? thanks.
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[more sarcasm] yes, as a CHEF i should travel to a war torn country in the middle of battle to personally help distribute food [/more sarcasm]
[even more sarcasm]Yes the head of the charity, World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres should never actually go to places where his organization is working because internet poster laxguy does not know what Chef Andres does.[/sarcasm]
tell me again what CHEF ANDRES is doing personally that he needs to be in the middle of a war? thanks.
Off the top of my head: 1) Managing and coordinating food supplies so that meals can be prepared. 2) Managing and arranging for facilities to prepare meals as for some reason, commercial kitchens do not magically appear. 3) Managing the mostly volunteer work to prepare said meals, a
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it seems like everything you've listed could be completed remotely or by someone else with more brains. specifically enough brains to work their Apple smart phone.
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it seems like everything you've listed could be completed remotely
Oh really? And how would you know? So different food suppliers/wholesalers in Ukraine/Poland should just listen to a person in the US because . . . Also chefs working these kitchens in Ukraine and Poland should just listen to some person far away just because . . . I can only assume you have never provided humanitarian aid in a crisis situation. Some things can only be handled on the ground.
or by someone else with more brains.
Now that is just a person attack by you on him considering you had no idea what he did.
. specifically enough brains to work their Apple smart phone.
His specific complaint was tha
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You might not see them. They're probably hiding or at least taking cover.
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Maybe the first thing you should do is avoid a war zone.
Indeed, what the fuck are humanitarians and aid workers doing in a warzone. Why aren't they at home with their families like normal people. /s
Seriously did you have a stroke when you wrote that, or are you actually a piece of shit?
How are they supposed to know? (Score:2)
It's called a battlefield in the middle of a shooting war. Borders and ownership can change minute by minute.
Maybe he should rely on local intel from commanders before venturing into hostile territory? Just saying.
Natural Disasters (Score:3)
Maybe Waze has it figured out.
Re:Natural Disasters (Score:5, Funny)
There was a flood, and it kept sending me into flooded areas to avoid traffic.
And you didn't run into any traffic in those flooded areas, did you?
Sheesh - some people will complain about anything. /j
Re:Natural Disasters (Score:4, Insightful)
There was a flood, and it kept sending me into flooded areas to avoid traffic
Google doesn't know what is and isn't flooded. All it knows is the roads without cars on it.
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Google doesn't know what is and isn't flooded. All it knows is the roads without cars on it.
It doesn't know what is or isn't a battlefield either. What's your point?
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Who said anything about battlefields. You're the one taking about floods. If you didn't want to talk about floods then maybe consider not posting in the future.
Re: Natural Disasters (Score:2)
Waze just feeds Google Maps. If you report an accident, it appears in Maps. Google uses it to crowd source info without complicating Maps for the average user.
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Please tap the military hazard:
Tank
Crater
Poorly equipped troops
Where is the hazard?
On the road
In the building
There *is* no building, you insensitive clod!
Thank you for helping your fellow travelers. You have been awarded six points.
TomTom needs an upgrade too (Score:2)
more oprtions ...
avoid highways
avoid war-zones
avoid radioactive zones
avoid wildfire zones
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more oprtions ...
avoid highways
avoid war-zones
avoid radioactive zones
avoid wildfire zones
avoid Ukraine
NextDoor comes to Axios (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the type of thing I would expect from the old ladies that post on NextDoor.
Old Lady - "I am worried about my dog because of coyotes."
Us - "You moved into an area with coyotes, watch your dog, or be aware, it might get eaten."
Old Lady - "You don't care."
Us - ^collective eye roll^
I'm not sure that I'd want Apple to have any of this information to start with. I mean really, if you can't tell you've ventured into enemy held territory, you've got bigger issues. Maybe Apple should just shut off service to all warzones in the future?
--
Love is being stupid together. - Paul Valery
Or you could regulate yourself (Score:4, Insightful)
And ask yourself if the route planned by your maps app is appropriate and the destination is right before you depart. Takes a few seconds. The maps apps should be helping you navigate, not you turning your life over to them
Re: Or you could regulate yourself (Score:1)
I expect my mapping app to react to real world conditions like road closures and accidents. Even if the closure is a Russian checkpoint or the accident is the burnt-out husk of a Russian tank, my expectation holds.
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Good for you, I count you among those who will follow their navigation app to the end of the earth. Even if it means going though the desert, running out of gas and dying. The world needs more people like you
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And ask yourself if the route planned by your maps app is appropriate and the destination is right before you depart. Takes a few seconds. The maps apps should be helping you navigate, not you turning your life over to them
I am pretty sure that a chef based in the US does not know exactly who is in control of what territory in an armed and active conflict in Ukraine which changes by the hour and day and week.
Blame the user. (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry but if you are near a war zone you should NOT be relying on any commercial service to know where the enemy is.
Do you think Russia is phoning Apple and telling them ahead of time where they are moving troops?
Print a paper map and draw it yourself before heading out. Expecting Apple to update quicker than you do is not reasonable.
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Sorry but if you are near a war zone you should NOT be relying on any commercial service to know where the enemy is.
And what should a civilian rely upon for mapping in a foreign country especially a country where they may not have had any prior experience?
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He's doing humanitarian work in a foreign war zone. He or his organization need to provide their own solutions to these issues.
If unable, maybe they shouldn't be there. Apple's certainly not there.
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[Fry meme] Can't tell if retarded or just being obtuse[/Fry meme]. There is no application, outside of major militaries currently engaged in the conflict or advising those engaged in said conflict who know what is going on. It's called the fog of war for a fucking reason. So when one decides to head into a warzone, you either try to contact the local military leadership to let them know, "Hey I am a non-combatant, please don't fuc
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And what mapping application should a non-profit provide to civilians again?
A paper map and a compass. In a war you cannot rely on there being GPS available and even if it is whether it is reliable as GPS spoofing exists, and there's no guarantee you're going to be able to charge your electronics.
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Forgive me but does your paper map automatically update when front lines change? Do you live in the world of Harry Potter?
Forgive me but does your paper map automatically update when front lines change? Do you live in the world of Harry Potter?
I'm starting to wonder if you might? This is not a technology problem, it's a people might kill you problem. There is no technology solution to where is it safe to be in an armed conflict. If you want to know where is it definitely not safe to be, it's going to be much of the country. If you're expecting street level data for trip planning, the men on the ground in the conflict hardly know that, have you not paid any attention? The situation is constantly evolving, and where it is unsafe to be right no
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And what should a civilian rely upon for mapping in a foreign country
A civilian should not be traveling to an active war zone. If they are traveling to an active war zone under the auspices of a government mission or an NGO aid operation, the relevant government or NGO should be providing safety information.
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Do you think Russia is phoning Apple and telling them ahead of time where they are moving troops?
Do you remember that 40km convoy headed for Kyiv? That was showing up on Google Maps as a traffic jam because of all the personal phones of the Russian Soldiers. I think Google disabled this feature in that area. Perhaps if their, now departed, generals had used that instead, they wouldn't have been such easy targets for the defenders!
Wrong approach (Score:3)
You don't need to keep updated maps of who controls what. You need to track networks of agents and how they dynamically change over time. The data is already available. You just need the resources (Apple does) and the will to develop it. I'm guessing Google already does something like this based on how Maps seems to react to changing conditions. It's hard to tell. I'm curious if Android users are having similar issues.
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You don't need to keep updated maps of who controls what. You need to track networks of agents and how they dynamically change over time. The data is already available. You just need the resources (Apple does) and the will to develop it. I'm guessing Google already does something like this based on how Maps seems to react to changing conditions. It's hard to tell. I'm curious if Android users are having similar issues.
So your suggestion is basically to use Waze instead. You've got to be shitting me, it's a war, not a sofa that fell onto the highway. You cannot expect commercial mapping software to safely route you around or through the god damned frontlines in an active conflict. GPS signals are probably being jammed in many places. Just stop.
Plan your route before you leave, exercise situational awareness, and god help you.
I hate to defend Apple (Score:3)
I hate to defend Apple, but they're not responsible for that. They don't (AFAIK) warn you about the worst parts of "the hood" either, and that's a much more stable situation.
Some would say you're a fool to go there at all; but there are legit reasons to be in proximity to fighting. If that describes you, you should be going in with a network of trusted people who have access to real-time data, and taking cues from the environment. So. Apple Maps told you to drive through City A, and you can't contact your ops there, as you approach it and you see APCs on the horizon and see Zs through your binoculars, this is not Apple Maps fault! Just GTFO and direct your complaints to... nobody, really.
That's nothing. (Score:2)
I needed to reach my destination in Tennessee from Memphis, and Apple Maps was sending me into northern Mississippi! Oh! The horror!
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Kids these days (Score:2)
It all starts with those outdoor playgrounds with the soft rubbery floor. Back in my day, we had concrete, if we were lucky! And the metal playground slide would heat up to a good 90 degrees Celsius. We had to build up calluses I tell you.
And the better alternative would be? (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you prefer that Apple simply disabled Maps for the entirety of Ukraine?
After all, we wouldn't want to recommend a potentially dangerous travel route whenever there's an active military campaign within the region.
Like many have already pointed out, knowing where the battle lines are currently drawn is far outside the scope of the Maps service. And if Apple did somehow manage to obtain this sort of detailed information and keep it reasonably up to date, I'd wager the participating combatants would find it far more useful than civilian drivers.
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What would an authoritative source even look like when it comes to something like this, anyway? Is he expecting Apple to be tapped into Russia comm channels to know when a convoy is moving and along what road? Do Russian convoys use publicly readable transponders that Apple has access to? Do Russian aircraft submit targets to a public database before taking off so that Apple knows to route you around an otherwise idyllic locale that's about to become a crater? Does he think Apple should have people on the g
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Do Russian convoys use publicly readable transponders that Apple has access to?
Sadly, more or less, yes. They're called mobile phones, and apparently the militaries of the region have had some problems with their soldiers hanging onto them and bringing them along for missions. Sometimes they've even used them to send and receive operations related comms (which is max level dumb, but people will use any tool they have and will default to the one they like the most).
Still, your conclusion remains spot on. Reflecting where there is active combat is well outside the scope of any consumer-
It's a tool (Score:2)
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Re: It's a tool (Score:1)
Same people who let them sell
guns and bullets that don't distinguish between good guys and bad guys
pencils that let you write the wrong answer on the big exam
bleach bottles that don't seize up and refuse to open if you intend on chugging them instead of doing your laundry
Tide pods that don't run away when you try to eat them
Tea kettles and pasta pots that let you spill hot liquids on yourself instead of warping away to another dimension
It goes on
Yeah, my paper maps aren't any better. (Score:2)
User error (Score:2)
How is Apple supposed to know if he's on the Ukrainian it Russian side?
This is the kind of complaints you get. (Score:2)
-just glad I'm not a phone reliant addict near a warzone
It's been known for a while that Apple Maps is... (Score:2)
... inferior to the alternatives.
If, as TFS claims "Chef Jose Andres has relied heavily on technology as part of his humanitarian work" he should know...
Actually, waze started PRECISELY as a way to avoid EXACTLY THAT SCENARIO (Israelis being diverted through Palestine controlled territory).
Waze, GoogleMaps or Here(WeGoNow)Maps are better alternatives than apple maps...
Stupid ** Infinity (Score:2)
These is stupid - and then there is incredibly, mind-defyingly stupid.
This is beyond even those levels and touching universe-leading levels of sheer moronic stupidity.
Crybaby (Score:1)
He wants Apple to recognize Russia's gains? (Score:2)