Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Businesses Apple

Every Employee Who Leaves Apple Becomes an 'Associate' (washingtonpost.com) 192

Inside Apple, your job classification can mean a lot. The difference between a "level 4" engineer and a "level 5," for instance, could mean a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation. And those titles help determine how much Apple employees can make when they leave the company for another job. But there's a hitch. From a report: In widely used databases that companies refer to for verification of job information, Apple changes the job title for every employee, whether they're a PhD in computer science or a product manager, to "associate," the company confirms. Apple's approach is bizarre if not unique, experts in employment practices say, but until now has gone largely unnoticed by anybody but a handful of job applicants whose resume conflict with official databases maintained by job verification services run by companies such as Equifax and Lexis-Nexis. The title "associate" is generally used to connote more junior roles. Entry-level retail workers, for instance, are often called associates. Law firms refer to recent law school hires in the same way, and in universities, associate professors are ranked below those with the title "professor." Further reading: SEC Looking Into Apple's Use of Nondisclosure Agreements, Whistleblower Says.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Every Employee Who Leaves Apple Becomes an 'Associate'

Comments Filter:
  • Does HR fill in the info into the databases maintained by job verification services and at other places do they just put in basic info?

  • by fjorder ( 5219645 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @11:54AM (#62255903)
    This smells like some Steve Jobs alpha-cult- culture vindictiveness for leaving what must be the best company in the universe
    • When I first saw headline I was sure it was some ply by Apple to keep ex-employees tethered to some super-string NDA or something... glad to see I was wrong... ah-hem.
    • Well, that's the point of the article, to imply that. So, congrats.
    • by leptons ( 891340 )
      Yet another reason I'll use when Apple comes asking me to work for them again. Fuck that company.
    • Unlikely. Standard policy at most companies is to only verify the employment dates and absolutely zero else including reason for separation, salary, position, or responsibilities. Many won’t even verify what division someone worked at.

      Responsibility goes to the employee to provide a promotion or offer letter, or performance evaluation to validate their title.

  • it's fraud (Score:2, Interesting)

    by OrangeTide ( 124937 )

    They never worked a full day under the title "associate". Reporting the most recent title where a paycheck has actually been given is the correct response that an inquiry to HR should result. Any untrue response is potentially fraud is money is changing hands. And a violation of employment law in Apple's own state.

    I hope HR and Legal have a lot of fun working together in the future. Because it's obvious they haven't spent much time together before. (typical of Silicon Valley tech companies)

    • Some companies only respond with "confirming employment, and hire and departure dates" for reference checks. This minimizes the possibility of compliance issues. Individual managers are not permitted to provide any, or any more, information. They are instructed to redirect reference check to HR.

      It's not a totally unreasonable approach as it prevents a vindictive manager from disseminating incorrect information. It also protects against law suits.

      • Some companies only respond with "confirming employment, and hire and departure dates" for reference checks. This minimizes the possibility of compliance issues. Individual managers are not permitted to provide any, or any more, information. They are instructed to redirect reference check to HR.

        Most companies I have worked for do just that and no more; for the veery reason you mention:

        It's not a totally unreasonable approach as it prevents a vindictive manager from disseminating incorrect information. It also protects against law suits.

        No smart company wants to risk a lawsuit because something they said was either wrong of open to interpretation. A manager might not even be vindictive but what is said could be misinterpreted. It's not just the ex employee that could sue, you don't want to give a glowing review only to have them do something that their new employee feels happened because they hired them based on your review.

    • by Sloppy ( 14984 )

      Doe whichever state we're talking about, have a law saying the former employer is required to share the job title? It might be as simple as "Associate" meaning "none of your damn business, competitor" (aka NULL, Declined to State, 867-5309, NO PLATES, Your Mom, etc).

    • Job titles have no defined meaning anyways.

      If what you want is honesty and transparency, make Apple report the person's salary to anyone who asks. That speaks volumes more than some made-up title.

      • The former employee can easily do this with a check stub or W2. Most even break out bonuses from salary.

    • Associate was their double secret title, known only to Steve Jobs.

    • Now, now, let's be considerate. They're on opposite sides of the building, and have to walk all the way around that circle, but they end up going to the infirmary every 30 degrees [time.com]. You can't really blame HR from never being able to make it all the way over to Legal to spend time with them.
    • Ok, should HR say they were “Employee?” That is about all most employers will ever give.

  • Sorry cupcake. You might be "Big Swinging D***" in your delusional mind, but the database only calls you "associate"! Love it.

    (Slightly off-topic, I know.) The more someone is obsessed with having the right title on their business card, the more of a problematic sociopath they will turn out to be. I've learned that if it starts with a fight over a meaningless title, it will get worse from there.

    Deliver results. That is what matters. Your title does not.

    • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:11PM (#62255985)

      Where I work, employees can choose their own titles.

      One of the shipping clerks has "Supreme Commander" printed on her business cards.

      Letting people choose their titles makes them happy and is way cheaper than paying them more.

    • The obsession is valid when questioned. I don't give a flying fuck what my title is, but I do not find it at all pleasant having to explain to someone looking at my employment history why I went from Senior Engineer to Principal Engineer and then to Senior Engineer again not because I was demoted or fucked up, but rather because my company decided to restructure and reclassify its grades during a merger. It's usually sufficient enough to point out that going back to Senior engineer came with a $20k salary i

    • Sorry cupcake. You might be "Big Swinging D***" in your delusional mind, but the database only calls you "associate"! Love it.

      (Slightly off-topic, I know.) The more someone is obsessed with having the right title on their business card, the more of a problematic sociopath they will turn out to be. I've learned that if it starts with a fight over a meaningless title, it will get worse from there.

      Deliver results. That is what matters. Your title does not.

      You must not work in tech. It's completely unregulated, which means there's ABSOLUTELY NO PENALTY for lying during the application process. It's entirely on the employer to screen COMPLETE bullshitters and I have had to do so before. Removing the ability to verify title from a large employer makes it worse.

      For example, someone who says they have a PhD from MIT but can't name a single building, street, or landmark on campus. I've had people say they have 20 years of experience in a language that's 10 ye

      • What's even the point of something like that? It's one thing to lie about ancillary details to get a job you can do, like a strong coder lying about a formal degree, but what does someone expect to happen when they apply for a senior programming position and can't write Hello World? You won't even get through the first week before someone realizes you can't do it.

        Also street and building names? I remember my dorm names and could certainly describe the layout, inside and out, of every major building on c
    • If you have the wrong title, you're in danger of getting passed up for raises when the time comes. Larger companies can and do limit compensation based on your title alone - regardless of how valuable you may be to a company.

      It's the easiest way for larger organizations to make general/sweeping decisions about pay cuts/raises.

    • Sorry cupcake. You might be "Big Swinging D***" in your delusional mind, but the database only calls you "associate"! Love it.

      (Slightly off-topic, I know.) The more someone is obsessed with having the right title on their business card, the more of a problematic sociopath they will turn out to be. I've learned that if it starts with a fight over a meaningless title, it will get worse from there.

      Deliver results. That is what matters. Your title does not.

      'Titles' absolutely do matter---to the gatekeepers. If you're applying for 'Director of Technical Mumbo Jumbo' for Spacely Sprockets, then HR (more likely their HR Software) will have screened you 14 ways to Sunday. And, if your CV/Resume says you were 'Director of Technical Mumbo Jumbo' at Apple as one of your past jobs, but they're now labeling you as 'Associate', you can bet the gatekeepers (or their software) are going to reject your CV/Resume and you won't even be considered for an interview at Spacely

    • Oh my god, you are the silliest, most obnoxious snowflake I have ever seen.

      The results you deliver is what matters to THE COMPANY. The job title is not there for the benefit of the company. Instead, it, along with the paycheck and the benefits, are what matters to the EMPLOYEE.

      Only a total douchebag has no concern at all about what the employee gains. You are basically saying the employee should work for free. This is called slavery.

      Titles, benefits, and pay are COMPENSATION for working. Nobody works w

    • Apple is the opposite of Walmart.
      Their store cashiers are called "Geniuses" and their PHDs are called "Associates".

    • Your obsession with being a dick does not change the fact that a "..job verification service hired to vet her résumé was unable to resolve the discrepancy with Apple."

      You can fuck off now.
  • ... job applicants whose resume conflict with official databases maintained by job verification services run by companies such as Equifax and Lexis-Nexis.

    All my pay stubs, at all my employers over the years, have listed my job position/category, so a copy of the last stub should clear that up for prospective employers -- even if you obscure the pay amount ...

    • by LodCrappo ( 705968 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:11PM (#62255993)

      a piece of paper/online report probably isn't going to trump what HR gets from their background check reports. and thats if you're even given an opportunity to dispute their findings instead of "we went with another candidate"

      • a piece of paper/online report probably isn't going to trump what HR gets from their background check reports. and that's if you're even given an opportunity to dispute their findings instead of "we went with another candidate"

        Sure, but if a company is going to ignore you and your stated qualifications simply because Lexis-Nexis (or whoever) reports a different job category for you, like "Associate" -- especially if this is a well-known issue -- then do you really want to work for them anyway? Fuck 'em, their loss...

        Hopefully, better companies know background checks aren't infallible and will ask you about any discrepancies, especially simple ones like this -- if you're otherwise qualified.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • I think reading TFS (I know, I know) the issue is that people entering their job applications online get dinged and blocked long before they get a chance to show anyone their paystubs.

            Of course, most people probably can't do an employment background check on themselves and don't know what those entities report about them, so anything they enter could mismatch. If a companies ignore applicants for stuff like that, then they're idiots -- especially if the reported job status is lower or more generic than what the applicant reports. Granted that may be difficult is the process is automated, but then again, if that's so, they're also idiots.

            Personally, I never had (or noticed) an issue

      • What, you've never forged a pay stub? Well aren't you a goody two shoes. The rest of us started forging those decades ago so the bank would give us a loan.

  • by Hentes ( 2461350 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:04PM (#62255955)

    You shouldn't judge an applicant based on what their former employer says about them the same way you shouldn't trust a person based on what their ex says about them. Of course, good luck explaining that when you don't even get to the interview because a "job verification service" decides that you "lied" on your CV.

    • You shouldn't judge an applicant based on what their former employer says about them the same way you shouldn't trust a person based on what their ex says about them. Of course, good luck explaining that when you don't even get to the interview because a "job verification service" decides that you "lied" on your CV.

      Nailed it..

    • Yes, you're right about not judging them, but the problem is that HR is never dinged for the rockstar they didn't hire, but rather, for the dud they do. So it costs them nothing to overlook excellent candidates (because they never know), but much more if they fail to catch the guy who shouldn't have been hired in the first place. In most companies, HR's job is to discriminate, not to discover. In terms of paring down a large set of resumes to a smaller set, any arbitrary reason which isn't illegal will

  • If this is only applied to ex-employees, then nothing wrong whatsoever.
    If there are actual 'associate' positions in Apple, then this could be viewed as a demotion.
    Since the word 'associate' is vague, it is not inaccurate.

    • If this is only applied to ex-employees, then nothing wrong whatsoever. If there are actual 'associate' positions in Apple, then this could be viewed as a demotion. Since the word 'associate' is vague, it is not inaccurate.

      Except that it is wrong---because the gatekeepers (or their software) that compare your CV versus these databases will decide you're lying if it says 'Associate', when you were the 'Director of Technical Mumbo Jumbo'--which is what your CV says you did there.

  • I have always been told by HR types to confirm only dates of employment and give no additional information. This sounds like an automation of this common practice.
    • All depends on the state also. Some states allow former employers only to confirm the person worked for them and the dates. Other states allow them to give comments on their work performance.
  • Apple = Evil cult (Score:4, Insightful)

    by slazzy ( 864185 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:42PM (#62256111) Homepage Journal
    So basically, Apple is an Evil cult that tries to hang on to its members any way it can? Just as we thought then.
  • Anon E. Mouse, Apple Ass., maybe?
  • ...at Cupertino mixing some awesome soy-chai-skinny-lattes. That means I'm a former associate at Apple. Can I have a job as a senior software engineer? Apple says I have the same job title.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Such a great work ethics at that company. Actively trying to sabotage the carieer of their former employees. Everyone loves Apple for sure. Just dont quit your job there.
  • Tracking the titles of who is leaving and cross referencing with other data can also be used to glean insights into Apple's development plans; just as help wanted ads can be useful information, or disinformation, tools.
  • why should a 3rd party company have detailed job titles for any employees of any company? I consider that a data breach. so much for tik tok, facebook, google being the privacy bad guys.

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday February 10, 2022 @01:54PM (#62256405)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • ...becomes a dis-associate, isn't it ?!?

Were there fewer fools, knaves would starve. - Anonymous

Working...