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Apple Proposes 27% Commission in Dutch App Store Dispute (theverge.com) 83

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Apple plans to charge developers of dating apps a 27 percent commission on any in-app purchases made via alternative payment systems in the Netherlands, the company has announced. From a report: The change comes in response to an order from Dutch competition regulator, the Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM), which has demanded that Apple allow dating app developers -- and only dating app developers -- to use alternatives to Apple's in-app payment system in the country. Twenty-seven percent represents a reduction of only 3 percentage points compared to the 30 percent commission Apple typically charges for developers using its own payment system. The announcement follows Google's proposal to reduce its commission by 4 percentage points for developers using alternative payment systems in South Korea, Reuters reports.
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Apple Proposes 27% Commission in Dutch App Store Dispute More

Apple Proposes 27% Commission in Dutch App Store Dispute

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    • Seems fair. The outside CC processing firms will change 3% processing fees. The rest goes to Apple to maintain App infrastructure. That has always been the arrangement since inception.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by splutty ( 43475 )

        Credit Cards really aren't a thing in the Netherlands, though. So that 3% is probably what they save by not actually needing to use Credit Cards to begin with...

        Wouldn't that be funny.

        But the ACM is generally not known to do 'deals'. If you break the law, you break the law, and they're not going to do a deal.

        • Credit Cards really aren't a thing in the Netherlands, though. So that 3% is probably what they save by not actually needing to use Credit Cards to begin with...

          Wouldn't that be funny.

          But the ACM is generally not known to do 'deals'. If you break the law, you break the law, and they're not going to do a deal.

          Apple wouldn't be breaking a Law. They would be simply ignoring an ex Parte Agency Administrative Ruling. One where Apple wasn't really afforded any real, substantive Due Process.

          Kinda different; but the effect is the same, I guess.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
          Well yhe thung our friends across the Atlantic seam to miss frequently isthat at least Visa also do debit cards,ii suspect Credit cards are just mire common in the US as there seam to be few limits and little central controll about hiw much CC debt a person can have, and there is always a shady bank willing to issue a pre approved card with a few thousand dollars credit. At keast that 's what iv'e heard but that was a few yers ago, so if thing have changed I'll apricuate a correction

      • Seems fair. The outside CC processing firms will change 3% processing fees. The rest goes to Apple to maintain App infrastructure. That has always been the arrangement since inception.

        That is exactly what I was thinking.

        But of course, nothing but “Free” will do

        • Re:Most Likely Response. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by xgerrit ( 2879313 ) on Friday February 04, 2022 @03:56PM (#62238071)

          But of course, nothing but “Free” will do

          As of 2018 Apple had 20 million registered developers [techcrunch.com]. They charge each of those developers $100 a year to have access to the App Store. That's $2 billion they take from developers before a single App Store sale even occurs. So if Apple took literally nothing from every App Store sale, you'd still be $2 billion dollars away from "free".

          • But of course, nothing but “Free” will do

            As of 2018 Apple had 20 million registered developers [techcrunch.com]. They charge each of those developers $100 a year to have access to the App Store. That's $2 billion they take from developers before a single App Store sale even occurs. So if Apple took literally nothing from every App Store sale, you'd still be $2 billion dollars away from "free".

            They do take literally nothing from hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Free (as in Beer) Apps. And every single one of those Apps costs Apple actual dollars. $99/yr probably doesn't even quite make up for the resource costs in Approving and Listing any App (let alone any additional Updates thereto).

            As for Freemium Apps, Keep in mind that, for every Fortnite, there are many Freemium Apps that have little more to no Subscribers/Premium-Purchasers; yet they still cost Apple to Approve, Host, and Mainta

            • They do take literally nothing from hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Free (as in Beer) Apps. And every single one of those Apps costs Apple actual dollars. $99/yr probably doesn't even quite make up for the resource costs in Approving and Listing any App (let alone any additional Updates thereto).

              Your back of the envelope guess is way way off. Since Apple doesn't break out the App Store numbers in their financials, let's look at Netflix. In 2021, according to Netflix's financial statement [stocklight.com] on page

              • They do take literally nothing from hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Free (as in Beer) Apps. And every single one of those Apps costs Apple actual dollars. $99/yr probably doesn't even quite make up for the resource costs in Approving and Listing any App (let alone any additional Updates thereto).

                Your back of the envelope guess is way way off. Since Apple doesn't break out the App Store numbers in their financials, let's look at Netflix. In 2021, according to Netflix's financial statement [stocklight.com] on page 28, Netflix spent $1.8 billion dollars on technology and development. That's all their streaming infrastructure, payroll for developers, QA, R&D, computer hardware and software expenses, etc. All of it. That's $200 million less than Apple took from developers before a single App Store sale.

                If you think the App Store somehow costs more money to run than all of Netflix I really don't know what to say. Yeah, the same Netflix that consumes roughly 15% of all internet traffic [statista.com].

                So where are my Netflix Developer Tools?

                Where are the Approval and Updating Services?

                Not the slightest bit equivalent.

                And if those figures are true, my Netflix Subscription (which now costs me about 150% of an Apple Developer License), should be more like $2 per month. Instead, it just went up. Again.

                Afterall, when considering the number of Subscribers, $24 per year should be about a thousand times more than Netflix's Published Development and Infrastructure Costs.

                Oh, and don't get me started on the fact th

                • Netflix doesnâ(TM)t pay for bandwidth anymore. ISPs give them in-network rack space to host their content and avoid the peering fees. Read more about their box and apply for one here: https://openconnect.netflix.co... [netflix.com]

                  • Netflix doesnâ(TM)t pay for bandwidth anymore. ISPs give them in-network rack space to host their content and avoid the peering fees. Read more about their box and apply for one here: https://openconnect.netflix.co... [netflix.com]

                    An even greater reason why my Netflix Subscription should be $2 per month ($20/year)!

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
                      You mean $24/ year right, ,last I checked a year has 12 months, unless ofc thst yearly price includes a 20% discount for 12 months of up front payment, in which case not bad
                    • If you negate the price of content. The video is not like YouTube. It does not come to Netflix for free.

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
                    An in turn the isps save cross country backbone bandwith ( Ie they might n9t need to run additional fiber and related infra, shuch is rather costly), so yes Netflix saves money on the deal (i wonder if the ISPs give Netflix the rac space and the power for free tho I doubt it) But so dies the ISPs at least potentially

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Cyberax ( 705495 )

            They charge each of those developers $100 a year to have access to the App Store.

            Don't forget buying Apple's hardware to do development. That realistically works out to something like $400 a year.

            • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

              by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 )

              They charge each of those developers $100 a year to have access to the App Store.

              Don't forget buying Apple's hardware to do development. That realistically works out to something like $400 a year.

              Considering you can buy a Mac mini for $600 (often cheaper On Sale), and it will likely be supported by OS Updates for over a Decade, your "Estimate" was extracted from your posterior.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Cyberax ( 705495 )

                Considering you can buy a Mac mini

                Developing on Mac Mini is a pain. You realistically need a mid-level Mac Book at least ($2000) and depreciating it over 5 years gets you $400 per year.

                • Considering you can buy a Mac mini

                  Developing on Mac Mini is a pain. You realistically need a mid-level Mac Book at least ($2000) and depreciating it over 5 years gets you $400 per year.

                  Pain for you, perhaps. But that's a non-sequitur.

                  And you can get a nice M1 MacBook Air for $1k.

                  Next bullshit "objection"?

              • You're presenting the presumably lowest cost option whereas the parent clearly talked about realistic. If you think most, or the average, developer, is going with your scenario, you're totally right.

                • You're presenting the presumably lowest cost option whereas the parent clearly talked about realistic. If you think most, or the average, developer, is going with your scenario, you're totally right.

                  Actually, it all depends on what type of Apps/Applications (e.g. recipe minder vs. 3D CAD), and for what Platform(s) (iOS, iPadOS, TVOS, WatchOS and/or macOS) you are targeting.

                  But, especially with the Apple Silicon Macs, there is a much smaller Delta in performance from the bottom to the top of the line (that will change when the iMac 27" and Mac Pro get transitioned to ASi); so especially right now, Developing on an M1 Mac Mini, MacBook Air, iMac or even MacBook Pro is more about desired form factor than

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
              You can rent clod instances fir the time it takes you to build /debug

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by MassacrE ( 763 )

            Registered developers != paying developers

      • Seems fair. The outside CC processing firms will change 3% processing fees. The rest goes to Apple to maintain App infrastructure. That has always been the arrangement since inception.

        If that's what it costs Apple to run their app infrastructure, the best thing the Dutch could do would be to require Apple to allow users to install apps outside the App Store. Digital storefronts for software have been around long before the Apple App Store (for ex. Digital River [wikipedia.org]), and the standard percentage for the storefro

        • So what developer tools does this third party store provide? Do they refund purchasers who feel cheated, for example? And remember this is not just about apps making money. Apple also supports gazillions of apps that are free and intentionally donâ(TM)t make money. Can they deliver the free Uber app for eight percent of the revenue?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Munchr ( 786041 )

        Except that since it's all digital distribution, the actual costs involved should see fees much closer to CC processing fees, not the traditional physical distribution fees. App stores in general, not just Apple, charge obscenely high rates for what they actually do. Consider Apple is estimated to have earned 70+ billion in gross revenue from the app store in 2020. Their 30% cut would be around 30 billion, out of which they presumably pay for storage costs, bandwidth, and support. Then consider F-Droid,

        • Except that since it's all digital distribution, the actual costs involved should see fees much closer to CC processing fees, not the traditional physical distribution fees. App stores in general, not just Apple, charge obscenely high rates for what they actually do. Consider Apple is estimated to have earned 70+ billion in gross revenue from the app store in 2020. Their 30% cut would be around 30 billion, out of which they presumably pay for storage costs, bandwidth, and support. Then consider F-Droid, run by volunteers, has about a $30,000 yearly budget, according to their donations page.

          So, if F-Droid had just one paid IT person, Developer, App Approver, Secretary, Janitor or fucking anything, it would probably about triple their Operating Expenses?!?

          Now, think of how many of each if those Apple has to have, and perhaps you will see just how ridiculous your comparison really is!

          Sure, Apple has to spend more to maintain a larger infrastructure, but I can guarantee But isn't it so that if you (as a developer) wish to make something , there is no other option than the Apple contracts for you to sign? it doesn't actually cost them a million times more than F-Droid to do so - most of that is pure profit.

          Citation, please.

  • Instead of a commission, charge the developers a "cost plus profit" fee on things like data storage on Apple's servers, data transit to and from Apple's servers, and so on.

    If I download the app, the app developer gets billed a small amount.
    If I do anything in the app that hits Apple's servers, the app developer gets billed a small amount.
    And so on.

    Set this at some reasonable markup over cost, and it should keep the regulars happy. The "devil is in the details" of course, since Apple is very unlikely to sha

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by guruevi ( 827432 )

      That IS the fee they are charging. They are charging for upkeep of the App Store, vetting, chargebacks, bank transfers, fronting the whole cost etc.

      Compared with other stores, Apple is relatively cheap too.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Kartu ( 1490911 )

        They are charging for upkeep of the App Store

        Oh boy...

      • If you and I both publish apps that each cost Apple $1000/year to host, including all transaction costs, etc., but my app is free or low-cost but yours is a high-cost app with high-cost in-app purchases, Apple will get more from you than from me since they use a commission model.

        If you shifted to a "cost of providing a service plus reasonable profit" model, we would both pay Apple something above $1000/year but not outrageously more.

        As I said though, the devil is in the details: Apple gets to pick how they

        • It goes without saying that there is, how shall I put it, "an opportunity for abuse" here.

          Saying there is "an opportunity for abuse", is very different from a showing of actual abuse.

          IOW, "Talk is Cheap".

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by guruevi ( 827432 )

          Yes, but then you would complain that you couldn't publish your cheap app because you would never make a profit, you'd probably be in debt until (or only if) your app took off big time. You'd complain about artificial barriers to protect big businesses that can afford the $1000 upfront cost.

          Whatever model you pick, people will complain and it will always favor someone. The 'fairest' solution is a flat tax which is what Apple went with.

  • This is bargaining. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Friday February 04, 2022 @03:47PM (#62238025)

    Since Apple is bargaining, the Dutch state should present a counter offer such as, "0% and we will be charging Apple with a crime". From here, they can negotiate down to "0% and Apple can fuck off".

    • Since Apple is bargaining, the Dutch state should present a counter offer such as, "0% and we will be charging Apple with a crime". From here, they can negotiate down to "0% and Apple can fuck off".

      Fine.

      And then, Apple can say "Your entire country represents .00012% of our gross sales and services income. It is not economically viable for Apple to Develop,Test and Maintain a country-specific App Store Payment System for this small of a market. We therefore are withdrawing completely from your country. Have a Nice Day."

      Then, the Dutch will have just how many Mobile Ecosystems to choose from?

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Yeep ( 27982 )
        And then the EU parlement can say "We have this law, called "Digital Single Market", that says you can't block access for a service in one member state, while providing access to it in another". And then Apple will have to choose: comply, or withdraw from all 28 EU member states.

        • And then the EU parlement can say "We have this law, called "Digital Single Market", that says you can't block access for a service in one member state, while providing access to it in another". And then Apple will have to choose: comply, or withdraw from all 28 EU member states.

          Mmm. Sounds Monopolistic to me. . .

        • And then the EU parlement can say "We have this law, called "Digital Single Market", that says you can't block access for a service in one member state, while providing access to it in another". And then Apple will have to choose: comply, or withdraw from all 28 EU member states.

          Then the EU as a whole should set a fee structure for Apple to take-or-leave across the whole of the EU, not leave it to individual nations to set varying fees.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            EU is not a nation state, nor does it have power to do any such thing. Member nation states are the ones with this power.

            • Thus the problem with the EU as a whole enacting a take-it-or-leave-it "Digital Single Market, that says you can't block access for a service in one member state, while providing access to it in another" as the above poster alleged.

              If member states want to regulate separately, then they should face the consequences of that regulation separately, not fall back on the "you must service all of us" policy of the EU as-a-whole.

              I'm not against Apple being regulated... this just sounds like a "have your cake and e

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                It's pretty common for people not versed in politics to think this. It's grounded in fundamental lack of understanding of EU, because EU is a very novel political organisation that is not a nation state, and doesn't have any sovereignty, but has some powers granted to it by sovereign member states.

                EU can act on things where member states all agree to concede sovereignty to it on that specific issue. It cannot act on things that it hasn't been granted sovereignty over. The only very remote and bad analogy I

                • I understand what you are saying... but it is irrelevant to my point.

                  By implementing an UNFAIR trade regulation on a foreign company, it becomes a matter of international politics.

                  This regulation is unfair, because Apple is not given the opportunity to decline to do business under the national regulations, as the EU requires an all-or-nothing service.

                  Apple is an American corporation, therefore the US government is required to defend their interests in international dealings.

                  The US trade representative has t

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                    You failed to outline what makes it unfair. Sovereign nation states have every right to police things like regional monopolization, and WTO charter gives everyone a right to do so. WTO charter is signed by both US and Netherlands.

                    What Netherlands are doing here is fair according to the charter signed by US. You will have to actually explain how that which they are doing is unfair if you want to argue this further.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                      It would appear you're referring to yourself with that first statement, as "fair" is in fact a well defined concept in WTO trade negotiations.

                      It's in fact one of the cornerstones of the charter.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Rhipf ( 525263 )

      Apple just thought it was a Dutch auction and hasn't lowered the price yet and is waiting to see if there are any takers at 27%.

      8^)

  • All the digital platforms, be it Google's Android play store, Apple's mac/ios app store, Microsoft's Windows and Xbox store, Sony's Playstation store, etc, should be forced to switch from a store to an open mall model, with the platform provider hosting it own stores upon the mall in competition with anyone else being able to set up a store on the same platform.

    As mall owner the platform provider can set requirements for app behaviour, but it must be the same for all stores even the platform provider's ow

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by msauve ( 701917 )
      >it must be the same for all stores even the platform provider's own store.

      OK, we'll charge all stores 30% of their revenue, including ourselves. It's easy for our accountants to move numbers between different accounts.
      • Platform providers only get rent from stores other than their own store, set by dutch auction every quarter.

        Platform providers can only set app payment conditions inside their own store.

        Yes it means that the Platform provider's store is probably always going to be top and most prominent of the Mall list & metaverse.

  • The Netherlands doesn't stand a chance.

  • Typical merchant processing fees are under 3% so this sounds about right, unless Iâ(TM)m missing something?

  • 27% is rent terms? Seriously, the landlord doth protest too much. DEVS should have a FEE AAPL pays to compile their code down to is OS’n then.

    F$&#@/+% monopolistas

  • >Twenty-seven percent represents a reduction of only 3 percentage points compared to the 30 percent commission Apple typically charges

    27 is a 10% reduction from 30.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
      Yes and the wirlspd narcet collectivli shat jtself when 3 of 7 members of the BoE boread voted to raise the interest rate by .5% instead of .25% so small numbers mean a lot, your point?

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