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Microsoft Says That if Apple Isn't Stopped Now, Its Antitrust Behavior Will Just Get Worse (appleinsider.com) 153

joshuark writes: Microsoft has filed an amicus brief supporting Epic Games in its appeal against Apple, and argues that, "the potential antitrust issues stretch far beyond gaming." As Epic Games continues to file its appeal against the 2021 ruling that chiefly favored Apple, interested parties have been contributing supporting filings to the court. Notably, those have included US attorneys general, but now Microsoft has also joined in on the side of Epic Games. Microsoft's amicus filing included below, sets out what it describes as its own "unique -- and balanced -- perspective to the legal, economic, and technological issues this case implicates." As a firm which, like Apple, sells both hardware and software, Microsoft says it "has an interest" in supporting antitrust law. Describing what it calls Apple's "extraordinary gatekeeper power," Microsoft joins Epic Games in criticizing alleged errors in the original trial judge's conclusions. "Online commerce and interpersonal connection funnels significantly, and sometimes predominantly, through iOS devices," says Microsoft. "Few companies, perhaps none since AT&T... at the height of its telephone monopoly, have controlled the pipe through which such an enormous range of economic activity flows." To support its claim that the Epic Games vs Apple ruling has "potential antitrust issues [that] stretch far beyond gaming," Microsoft describes what else it sees as this "enormous range of economic activity." "Beyond app distribution and in-app payment solutions - the adjacent markets directly at issue in this case," says Microsoft's filing, "Apple offers mobile payments, music, movies and television, advertising, games, health tracking, web browsing, messaging, video chat, news, cloud storage, e-books, smart-home devices, wearables, and more besides."
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Microsoft Says That if Apple Isn't Stopped Now, Its Antitrust Behavior Will Just Get Worse

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  • by QuietLagoon ( 813062 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:04PM (#62230997)
    ... I'd say it is Microsoft.
    • by saloomy ( 2817221 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:12PM (#62231029)
      A ruling against Apple only benefits Microsoft. There is no honor among thieves. To say Apple has a monopoly based on the cumulative economic activity is both naive and ignorant of the relative laws (like the Sherman Antitrust Act). The market capture by Apple is not a vast majority as there are alternatives that are wildly successful. Also, the barriers to entry are not insurmountable (many companies have build mobile platforms). If they wanted to really hurt Apple / Google, they would have to prove cartel based collusion to keep prices up. They would not find any. Apple does not have a monopoly. Microsoft is just looking for a leg up from the government.
      • How did this get published here and not just in the "Onion" as a joke.
      • by Merk42 ( 1906718 )

        A ruling against Apple only benefits Microsoft

        Yeah! Instead of iOS people will just use Windows Mobile!
        Oh, what's that? There is no Windows Mobile? It would benefit Google if anyone?
        That can't be right, this is Slashdot and everything is Microsoft's fault and/or them being evil.

      • If they wanted to really hurt Apple / Google, they would have to prove cartel based collusion to keep prices up. They would not find any.

        It's interesting how corporations have figured out that they don't need cartel based collusion when they implement basic game theory.

      • To say Apple has a monopoly based on the cumulative economic activity is both naive and ignorant of the relative laws (like the Sherman Antitrust Act).

        Well, the Supreme Court has already ruled [wikipedia.org] that there's evidence that Apple is in violation of anti-trust law [cornell.edu], and I assume they're not naive or ignorant.

        If they wanted to really hurt Apple / Google, they would have to prove cartel based collusion to keep prices up.

        You know Apple has literally already had to settle a case for colluding with Google [theguardian.com], so that's

      • To say Apple has a monopoly based on the cumulative economic activity is both naive and ignorant of the relative laws (like the Sherman Antitrust Act). The market capture by Apple is not a vast majority as there are alternatives that are wildly successful.

        Of course Apple's no stranger to the Sherman Antitrust Act having already been found guilty of violating it [wikipedia.org] back in 2012. That case was about the iBooks Store which, at the time, was significantly smaller than the Amazon's Kindle Book Store. So obviously c

    • by sconeu ( 64226 )

      Came here for this comment. Was not disappointed. 5/5 would mod up if I had points.

    • by ronaldo1 ( 11627 )

      Right, this is fucking hilarious coming from Microsoft. Payback is a bitch huh?

    • by Inglix the Mad ( 576601 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:30PM (#62231351)
      Indeed.

      I think my irony meter just imploded. The concentration of irony is so high here that it has passed the Schwarzschild Radius...
    • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:43PM (#62231399)

      Always accuse your enemies of what you’re guilty of.

    • yup, pot calling the kettle black, here.

    • Says the company forcing businesses to adopt Microsoft Teams...
    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      ... I'd say it is Microsoft.

      There is no-one so zealously anti-cigarette as an ex-smoker.
      Microsoft, like IBM, has shown major reform since their monopolistic days. And their motives are irrelevant. What matters is that Microsoft has largely reformed.
      Apple has not, so of course Microsoft is annoyed. It is not hypocrisy.

      Of course Apple has improved a lot with interoperability. e.g. back in the day, they deliberately modified their floppy-drive hardware so a Mac could not read PC floppies, or vice versa.

    • Most of those people are gone.

  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:04PM (#62231001)
    They use the same playbook.
    • So if Apple gets slapped for Anti-Trust, they will delay any payment or actions, and use the money and resources to lobby for a government to be easier on them after the next election.

    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      That market forces tend to work. MS lost its monopoly not through regulation, but because its aggressive ploy to insure only IE would be able to access the web failed. It failed because technology changes and everyone moved from desktops to mobile. the web was designed to be device independent, and that became the strength. CSS took over the predatory closed solutions of MS and Google. Google and Samsung have the monopoly in mobile. It is just that Apple is profitable. What changes we will see are unknown.
      • by Merk42 ( 1906718 )
        Yeah I'd say Apple learned that, which is why Safari lags behind all other browsers (hey why don't you build a proprietary iOS app instead of some website??). Also, worse than Microsoft bundling IE with Windows, Apple won't even let you use an alternative browser on iOS/iPad. They are all WebKit under the hood.
      • Microsoft never lost its de facto Monopoly position over the desktop. Apple continues to enjoy only a tiny slice of the desktop market, and everyone else has far less. This is because Bush's pet John Ashcroft stated that it would not be in America's best interest to hold them responsible for their actions. Then Microsoft rewarded the federal government by making Windows the most insidious spyware of all time, which is desirable to the feds because Microsoft is part of PRISM. Of course, these days, so is App

  • Believe (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:05PM (#62231005)

    I'll believe them when they allow third party game stores on the XBox.

    • Okay, well then you might want to look into EA Play on Xbox.

    • This. It's pretty hypocritical unless they allow true side loading. And I don't mean the gimped Creator's Program, but actual executables
    • I'm not that familiar with what Microsoft allows on xbox, but pretty sure they *do* allow what Epic wants Apple to allow.

      Third-party app store isn't really the issue for Epic. They are fine publishing through Apple's app store, it's the demand that the app published can't do so many things, like process its own payments, that is the issue.

      Dismissing them just because they don't go as far as you want sort of feels like letting perfect be the enemy of good, missing the forest for the trees, or some third thin

  • by TigerPlish ( 174064 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:05PM (#62231007)

    800 pound gorilla doesn't like it when another 800 pound gorilla muscles in.

    Pound sand, Microsoft. You, of all companies, don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to anti-competitive behavior.

    Are companies so weak today that they need to litigate instead of innovate?

    *sigh* this is MS we're talking about. Litigate away, it'll just make you look even more petty.

    • I agree that the analogy of two 800 pound gorillas is an apt one here, but wouldn't the smart thing be to let the two of them fight it out, in the hope that one will take out the other or (better yet) they will both take each other out?

      Because after all, any precedents set regarding Apple's anti-competitive behavior will also surely be applied to Microsoft. Apple will make sure of it!

      Theoretically this could result in a win-win for consumers. Or it could be one of those cases where the only real winners a

  • Holy hell. (Score:5, Funny)

    by nightflameauto ( 6607976 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:07PM (#62231011)

    Read headline and did a spit-take. WTF? Microsoft calling out another company for Antitrust? Next thing you know Bezos will be saying we need to stop Walmart!

    • by Chaset ( 552418 )

      Been reading /. since the 1990's. 25 years ago, this headline would have been April Fools material. How things have changed.

  • Oh, that's rich. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SvnLyrBrto ( 62138 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:09PM (#62231019)

    Coming from Microsoft? And after they *just* repeated their Bungie/Connectix/Obsidian/etc. shenanigans with both Bethesda and Blizzard? They are the last ones who have any business criticizing anyone else for "anticompetitive behavior". They're the damned poster child for that shit.

  • Projectionsoft

  • by schwit1 ( 797399 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:19PM (#62231057)

    Sure they are big and amoral, but that doesn't make them a monopoly.

    • This is a lawsuit that's about Apple's App Store and the iOS/iPadOS/tvOS app ecosystem which Apple maintains an iron grip over.

      • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:48PM (#62231193)

        This is a lawsuit that's about Apple's App Store and the iOS/iPadOS/tvOS app ecosystem which Apple maintains an iron grip over.

        And the only court case of which to date has declared it *not* a monopoly. Until another court rules otherwise it remains as such.

        No surprise either, you can't be accused of being a monopoly in your own vertically integrated ecosystem. Your own product isn't magically a market just because it's popular, and the actual market Apple is operating in, it doesn't actually even have a majority market share.

        • "you can't be accused of being a monopoly in your own vertically integrated ecosystem."

          [citation needed]

          • "you can't be accused of being a monopoly in your own vertically integrated ecosystem."

            [citation needed]

            Again it's self evident: It's not a market. Your own vertically integrated ecosystem is simply your own product (almost universally in some other market). The iPhone isn't a market. The phone market is a market and there the App Store not only doesn't have a monopoly, it doesn't actually even have a controlling market share.

      • What's weird is I have bought and used apps on phones and set top boxes without an help from Apple. It's been about 12 years since I last purchased a device from Apple. Because, big surprise, there is a massive market outside of the iOS/macOS ecosystem.
        If I bought a Bissell vacuum cleaner and then complained that the parts and bags are only available from the original manufacture, then I have only two options. Sue them for anticompetive practices, or caveat emptor and get on with my life.

        • That is a stupid comparison because the vacuum in your scenario has no DRM preventing you from using another bag. Apple's digital restrictions management is what makes their behavior anticompetitive.

          • Other bags don't fit and patent law makes it difficult to duplicate a vacuum bag for about 20 years. Because the IP laws are kind of fucked.

            I took technology out of my analogy to illustrate that the problems we have are deeper than you may have assumed.

          • by Demena ( 966987 )
            Please explain exactly what the DRM is in the situation you describe? In many cases DRM on Apple is at the whim of the creator. I have lots of books in iBooks that have no DRM at the request of the author.
    • by Tony Isaac ( 1301187 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:46PM (#62231191) Homepage

      Anti-trust law, and monopolistic behavior, isn't just limited to true monopolies, where only one company controls a market. Anti-trust law also applies to markets that are controlled by a very small number of companies. When it comes to app marketplaces, there are really only two: Apple and Google. Microsoft and Amazon have app stores, but they make up an insignificant portion of the market, allowing Apple and Google to ignore them competitively.

      When a company has so much control that they can charge whatever commission they want, you know, like 30%, that is monopolistic behavior. In a marketplace with many competitors, there is no way companies could get away with such a steep commission.

      • by Dixie_Flatline ( 5077 ) <vincent.jan.gohNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:07PM (#62231275) Homepage

        They can't charge whatever they want, though. If they raised the amount to 80%, nobody would pay it. Honestly, if they raised it up to 40%, there's a good chance that most app developers would start to balk and look for other places to develop for.

        Also, as has been remarked upon many times, the 30% take is common in the games industry on consoles, and yet nobody seems to be suing Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony for the same behaviour. As I recall, Epic even tried to dodge that question and did so poorly, not making a compelling argument for why those companies deserve a pass on their 30% tax but Apple and Google don't.

        I think the 30% take is too greedy, but I don't feel like there's any reasonable way to claim that Apple is a monopoly that requires anti-trust regulation for this specific thing when Google is providing a better deal right now, and has a reach that is still somewhat larger than Apple's even in the USA. There are precious few places in the world where iOS holds equal or higher marketshare than Android, so it must be the case that Apple's dominance is not absolute—there's competition, if people are willing to partake in it.

        Google has an effective monopoly on search, even with the rise of DDG. It's because Google search is still the best search. I could click anywhere else and often do, but I still have to go back to Google because it gives me the best results when I need them.

        Much in the same way, I think the claim that there's no competition doesn't hold up under even light scrutiny. There's competition and it's not what people want.

        • by Tony Isaac ( 1301187 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:34PM (#62231367) Homepage

          You're not wrong, it could be worse. The point is not the specific 30% threshold, but the greed. When companies are so powerful in a given marketplace that they can get away with overt greed, they have too much power. The market mechanisms that control prices have failed. That's when anti-trust law needs to do its job. In the case of game consoles (another market controlled by a small number of players), it has failed to provide the proper enforcement.

          • I agree with this too, I just don't think that the state has a lot of leverage here, and that the claims of 'no competition' are overblown.

            Interestingly, if Apple dropped their cut of the take to 0%, I think that would ALSO be subject to anti-trust regulation. Apple actually doesn't need that money to be ultra-profitable, so I think it would be seen as an anti-competitive loss leader.

        • Even a 100% monopoly can't charge whatever it wants. If there were a 100% monopoly on cars, it couldn't charge a million dollars per car. Most people would just not buy a car, and take a bus or stay home instead.

          • Fair point. But of course a company that did that wouldn't make much money, and any competitor at all would disrupt that. Apple is making a shit-tonne of money, meaning they're charging a price people are willing to pay and paying out enough to devs that it's worth their time, and there is one major competitor in the market that offers a meaningfully comprehensive product.

      • Just an aside, how is this perspective on anti-trust not applied to, say, Twitter and Facebook who have monopolized and warped public discourse under the umbrella of corporate personhood?
  • by aerogems ( 339274 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:22PM (#62231069)

    While I largely side with Epic, I have a real problem with the way they went about this. Still, if anything, it shows that we need to stop just waving through all these M&A deals and start going in the opposite direction of breaking up some of these larger companies.

  • seems appropriate with a slight change. "I've been waiting for you, Microsoft. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master."
  • by GoHawks ( 2031962 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:31PM (#62231101)
    I mean, that's only fair, right? I shouldn't be forced to use either steaming pile that they require now?
  • by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:40PM (#62231153)

    Wow, talk about disengenuous. Microsoft is still significantly worse than Apple, they just keep it under cover better. Something should be done with all the $Trillion companies to make sure they are kept under control, broken up, and prevent new entrants to the club. Government can’t regulate them when they get that big.

    • by Torodung ( 31985 )

      Hypocrisy doesn't matter. Apple will fire back. A full-on hypocritical war between Microsoft and Apple over who's the biggest 800 lb. gorilla can only benefit the consumer. (And the lawyers. Don't forget them.)

  • "If Apple isn't stopped now, it will continue getting better than Microsoft in every area other than weirdly confusing license agreements and Windows Updates that don't work."

  • Dude! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:05PM (#62231267)

    It's Groundhog Day, not April Fools'.

  • In other news, the catholic church has stated that child predators are a serious issue...

  • Apple is just a tactical thing for Microsoft. They *needed* Apple so that Microsoft didn't have a desktop monopoly. If I remember, Microsoft injected money into Apple:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    How weird things are.

  • "Barrel of 800 pound Gorillas"

    In which we get various 800 pound gorillas pound their chests and call out other 800 pound gorillas for doing things all the 800 pound gorillas are doing.

    And then bribe the lawmakers (oops campaign donations, my bad) to have their way.

  • They are right, Xbox, PlayStation, android, Roku, Facebook, Amazon definitely shouldn’t have such powers of determination over their devices we should be able to put whatever browser, email client,tv provider, marketplace that we wish on their devices /s
  • by Chas ( 5144 )

    Pot: HEY! KETTLE! You're BLACK dude!

  • They out monopolized us! Do something!

  • If users enjoy being restricted and overcharged, there will always be someone available to abuse them. There is absolutely no reason for lack of affordable phones or for not having a super secure by default device that can only be unlocked with a user visible action like removing a screw.

  • Poor Microsoft
    Apple and Google are carving up the world and only leaving a teeny slice for them.

  • Interestingly, I have zero adverse affects from anything Apple does. I have no Apple devices, and use no Apple services (Duck Duck Go uses Apple Maps under the hood; but that's their problem, not mine). I am able to avoid Apple very easily.

    Microsoft, on the other hand, has its tentacles wrapped around EVERYTHING. Even as a Linux user, Microsoft is inescapable in its monopolistic market control. Even my motherboards, which run Linux exclusively, require a Microsoft signing key (which Linux distributors have

  • ... YOU'RE BLACK!

    Seriously could you imagine this headline being published in the '90s by anyone other than The Onion?

  • But holy shit is it dangerous to start a fire when you are made of straw.

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