Steve Jobs Tried To Convince Dell To License Mac Software (cnet.com) 42
It's been 10 years since the death of Steve Jobs. Michael Dell talks about his memories of the tech icon, including when Jobs tried to convince Dell to license Mac software to run on Intel-based PCs. CNET reports: Fast forward to 1993. Jobs, ousted from Apple after a fallout with the company's board in 1985, had started a new company, called Next, and created a beautiful (but expensive) workstation, with its own operating system, as well as software called WebObjects for building web-based applications. Dell says Jobs came to his house in Texas several times that year, trying to convince him to use the Next operating system on Dell PCs, by arguing that it was better than Microsoft's Windows software and could undermine the Unix workstation market being touted by Sun Microsystems. The problem, Dell says he told Jobs, was that there were no applications for it and zero customer interest. Still, Dell's company worked a little bit with Next and used WebObjects to build its first online store in the mid-'90s.
In 1997, Jobs rejoined a struggling Apple after it acquired Next for $429 million, and he pitched Dell on another business proposal (as Jobs was evaluating Apple's Mac clone licensing project, which he ultimately shut down). Jobs and his team had ported the Mac software, based on Next's Mach operating system, and had it running on the Intel x86 chips that powered Dell PCs. Jobs offered to license the Mac OS to Dell, telling him he could give PC buyers a choice of Apple's software or Microsoft's Windows OS installed on their machine. "He said, look at this -- we've got this Dell desktop and it's running Mac OS," Dell tells me. "Why don't you license the Mac OS?" Dell thought it was a great idea and told Jobs he'd pay a licensing fee for every PC sold with the Mac OS. But Jobs had a counteroffer: He was worried that licensing scheme might undermine Apple's own Mac computer sales because Dell computers were less costly. Instead, Dell says, Jobs suggested he just load the Mac OS alongside Windows on every Dell PC and let customers decide which software to use -- and then pay Apple for every Dell PC sold.
Dell smiles when he tells the story. "The royalty he was talking about would amount to hundreds of millions of dollars, and the math just didn't work, because most of our customers, especially larger business customers, didn't really want the Mac operating system," he writes. "Steve's proposal would have been interesting if it was just us saying, "OK, we'll pay you every time we use the Mac OS" -- but to pay him for every time we didn't use it ... well, nice try, Steve!" Another problem: Jobs wouldn't guarantee access to the Mac OS three, four or five years later "even on the same bad terms." That could leave customers who were using Mac OS out of luck as the software evolved, leaving Dell Inc. no way to ensure it could support those users. Still, Dell acknowledges the deal was a what-could-have-been moment in history. [...] That different direction led to Jobs continuing to evolve the Next-inspired Mac OS and retooling the Mac product line, including adding the candy-colored iMac in mid-1998.
In 1997, Jobs rejoined a struggling Apple after it acquired Next for $429 million, and he pitched Dell on another business proposal (as Jobs was evaluating Apple's Mac clone licensing project, which he ultimately shut down). Jobs and his team had ported the Mac software, based on Next's Mach operating system, and had it running on the Intel x86 chips that powered Dell PCs. Jobs offered to license the Mac OS to Dell, telling him he could give PC buyers a choice of Apple's software or Microsoft's Windows OS installed on their machine. "He said, look at this -- we've got this Dell desktop and it's running Mac OS," Dell tells me. "Why don't you license the Mac OS?" Dell thought it was a great idea and told Jobs he'd pay a licensing fee for every PC sold with the Mac OS. But Jobs had a counteroffer: He was worried that licensing scheme might undermine Apple's own Mac computer sales because Dell computers were less costly. Instead, Dell says, Jobs suggested he just load the Mac OS alongside Windows on every Dell PC and let customers decide which software to use -- and then pay Apple for every Dell PC sold.
Dell smiles when he tells the story. "The royalty he was talking about would amount to hundreds of millions of dollars, and the math just didn't work, because most of our customers, especially larger business customers, didn't really want the Mac operating system," he writes. "Steve's proposal would have been interesting if it was just us saying, "OK, we'll pay you every time we use the Mac OS" -- but to pay him for every time we didn't use it ... well, nice try, Steve!" Another problem: Jobs wouldn't guarantee access to the Mac OS three, four or five years later "even on the same bad terms." That could leave customers who were using Mac OS out of luck as the software evolved, leaving Dell Inc. no way to ensure it could support those users. Still, Dell acknowledges the deal was a what-could-have-been moment in history. [...] That different direction led to Jobs continuing to evolve the Next-inspired Mac OS and retooling the Mac product line, including adding the candy-colored iMac in mid-1998.
bad idea (Score:3)
So, give Apple a bunch of money, piss off Microsoft, only to have Apple pull the rug out from underneath them in a few years so all the customers using MacOS on Dell switch to Apple hardware instead?
Is that you billg ;] (Score:2)
That's sounds like something billg would think-up. Microsoft got paid a "per system [edge-op.org]" royalty for all PCs shipped regardless. It was in the MS contract
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Yes, but you are just proving the point you objected to. It is a fact that doing so could piss off MS. Dell, at that time, was 100% Intel and 100% MS...and for a reason. Eventually they would stray, but not for the deal Jobs was offering. It should be remembered that Dell sold their own DOS, then their own OS/2, then their own Unix SDVR3.2 and SVR4 and also preinstalls of Linux, Netware and Banyan Vines. Dell would have been happy to sell MacOS too under the right terms, but those terms would not be as
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Now transitioning to another proprietary, closed architecture, how long will it be before Macs are a footnote in history?
That'll be the day Linux and Windows embrace ease-of-use.
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They don't need to, Apple is no longer committed to ease of use. Furthermore, Apple's "ease of use didn't save it from irrelevancy before.
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It's hard to take seriously a commentator who calls the guy who built the biggest tech company in the world a "used car salesman", and the guy who makes forgettable generic PCs a "genius".
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That's because you have no understanding of what happened and you grossly misrepresent the achievements of both men.
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No worse than the rug Microsoft pulled out from under IBM with OS/2.
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Also it's not clear, but it sounds like they're talking about the pre-Mac OS X "Star Trek"
In 1997, Jobs rejoined a struggling Apple after it acquired Next for $429 million, and he pitched Dell on another business proposal (as Jobs was evaluating Apple's Mac clone licensing project, which he ultimately shut down). Jobs and his team had ported the Mac software, based on Next's Mach operating system, and had it running on the Intel x86 chips that powered Dell PCs.
The Next OS (NEXTSTEP) was based on Mach/BSD and eventually became OSX.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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I worked for Apple at the time. I saw the building/lab with rows of Dells setup with MacOS 7 or 8. Sadly I can't remember which version it was.
However, it was definitely not running a MACH kernel. It was standard Mac OS Multifinder-style cooperative multitasking- and the project had started under Gil Amelio with an aim to enhance cloning/licensing by putting the OS on x86.
There was also an x86 version of Mac OS 10 in late 1998 or 1999. I still have the developer release CDs... it was called Rhapsody.
The OS
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I'm fairly sure the conversations with Dell started in early 1996. Those discussions were probably related to Copland.
Apple's Copland project had failed by the end of 1996. Some of it rolled into OS 8, and more into OS 9. But the new kernel was dropped.
So, I have a hard time thinking the new Copland kernel was involved. I also had hands on with Copland- and it was pure shite. It would have tanked the company faster than Amelio.
Rather, based on what I remember from being on campus... Jobs was interested in a
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That's probably what would have happened, one way or the other.
Like historically, the Mac Clone program was kind of a steal for educational sources, as it let them run MacOS 8 on what were otherwise boring whitebox PPC PC's, and the people who were in the class/teaching staff could use cheaper equipment that ran the same software that publishers (newspapers, books, etc) were using.
Now had Dell taken Apple up on this offer, DELL would have been in an interesting position where it could completely wipe out Mi
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had Dell taken Apple up on this offer, DELL would have been in an interesting position where it could completely wipe out Microsoft.
Nah by 1997 the server room was NT or Novell running on Windows or DOS, The groupware Lotus Notes running on Windows, or Exchange. To the agree anything else existed at least in the US market market place it was considered a legacy system or an also ran; outside the bubbles of academia and very limited verticals (even if they represented a lot of dollars; mostly in the content and network operators spaces).
1997 was well past Microsoft's solidification as THE business platform it was already a near monopoly
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Computing the the 80s and 90s was a confusing place. People got excited about products that in hindsight were trash. It's always possible that maybe, had someone inserted an ahead-of-its-time product into that era, with the right marketing, it might have gone somewhere. Dell behind Apple is an interesting thought experiment. Because NT and a lot of other stuff, really was trash. But I'll grant you, people back then in big business worshipped Microsoft like a golden idol.
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"Because NT and a lot of other stuff, really was trash."
It's hard to take a commentator seriously when...
NT (and a lit of other stuff) really was trash? As compared to what? MacOS at that time? Please, your ignorance is on full display.
"But I'll grant you, people back then in big business worshipped Microsoft like a golden idol."
You get your information from fanboys, not the real world.
Re: bad idea (Score:2)
Given all the Docker nowadays, I'd say nothing has changed since the 90s.
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"...ultimately Dell makes it's money from the overpriced servers, not the desktops or laptops"
Not then. Dell didn't care about servers at all at that time, it made all its money on desktops and laptops.
iPhone (Score:1)
What a missed opportunity. Dell should have asked Jobs to sketch out his iPhone idea and feature list and offer to build it back in 1993.
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The technology didn't exist. There's a reason the iPhone came when it did.. this was the first time such an idea was feasible.
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The iPhone was never Jobs' idea in the first place. He didn't want to do a cell phone, nor did he even know how to use one.
Dell was working on phones before the iPhone was introduced, just like everyone else.
"1993 is the year of desktop"... Openstep. (Score:2)
History could have been different. It would now be, "1993 the year of consumer desktop OpenStep". And Linux would be that geeky OS.
Dell at Apple (Score:2)
I think this was really him:
https://youtu.be/PnCqNH7V9R0?t=51
WebObjects (Score:2)
Has anyone used WebObjects? I heard it was really great, but never got to try it.
Re: WebObjects (Score:2)
Wotonomy is supposed to have re-implemented major parts of WebObjects, so you can try it out: https://www.openhub.net/p/woto... [openhub.net]
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Cool, thanks!
feeding an already fat cat (Score:3, Insightful)
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The term "bribe" doesn't really apply here.
Nor would they be "busy counting" things that would be handled by accountants.
Nextstep (Score:2)
The article doesnâ(TM)t even mention the operating system by its actual name. Nextstep
Re: Nextstep (Score:2)
Non-article (Score:2)
We've known for years that Dell wanted the Apple OS to break the MS stranglehold. The article just dumb -- someone was in negotiations with Apple and Apple wanted too much control or money. That's how real business works. Not making a deal, then saying BAD DEAL and dragging it through the media
The only way that Apple/Dell could have had a winning formula is if they'd have pared down number of alienware offerings
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"We've known for years that Dell wanted the Apple OS to break the MS stranglehold."
No, we have not, nor has Michael Dell even suggested such a thing here. He said that Jobs wanted MacOS on Dell machines and Dell declined.
"The article just dumb -- someone was in negotiations with Apple and Apple wanted too much control or money"
It doesn't appear you even read the article. No one was "in negotiations".
"The only way that Apple/Dell could have had a winning formula is if they'd have pared down number of alien
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No, we have not, nor has Michael Dell even suggested such a thing here. He said that Jobs wanted MacOS on Dell machines and Dell declined.
Yes, today, good. Dell has never spoken before ill, or not, of apple. He's also never clarified comments.
It doesn't appear you even read the article. No one was "in negotiations".
Or, you know, life existed outside of this one moment in time . . . maybe
Alienware did not exist at that time.
Yeah, Alienware is like, a new thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Jesus, it's almost as if I was talking about an ongoing thing,.
"Years ago, that would only work for Apple..."
LOL, you have quite the "insight".
It's a HUGE leap to say being a beta tester for fru-fru products is all the vogue now, I know.
.
Apple, Tesla, purse dogs . .
My bad (Score:2)
don't feed the trolls, or get trolled into feeding the trolls
Microsoft gave WallSt a choice in 1993 (Score:2)
WindowsNT
WallSt had famously made some serious cash with NeXT’s O-O programming language in trading. NeXTSTEP OS was a full stack unix workstation class machine. At the point that trading house began considering outfitting their trading desks in NeXT machines, Bill Gates gave them an offer they couldn’t refuse - NT promised Windows ubiquity throughout the enterprise.
SteveJobs lost huge orders and never recovered. SteveJobs wisdom was that there is only room for two monopolies in computing.
Windows is like a Ford Pinto (Score:2, Interesting)
Windows is like a Ford Pinto, eventually it's going to blow up spectacularly with you inside of it. Microsoft is already trying to transition Windows to run on the Linux kernel, and if Apple is smart they will port the macOS graphical environment to run on a Linux kernel as well. Moreover, for better or worse, GNU/Linux is now the de facto POSIX standard. I use macOS because it's the best unix based desktop experience, but the more its BSD based userland toolchain diverges from GNU/Linux's Sys V style userl
Forced hardware upgrades (Score:1)
"Jobs wouldn't guarantee access to the Mac OS three, four or five years later "
This is why I got off the Apple bandwangon.
Have you noticed that the OS or the hardware architecture changes significantly enough regularly that you have to buy new hardware or software licenses or be left out.
Try running Dark Castle or ShufflePuck Cafe on a current Macbook Air.
At the same time you can still run Dos games on your Window 10 PC...
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NTVDM is deprecated and on "limited support". Its compatibility with games wasn't that great to begin with, and available only if you are running 32bit Windows (which is probably a small minority now). You're much better off with DOSBOX for that, which is available for the Mac, too. And once you are talking emulators, then emulators exist for the classic Mac, (vMac, Basilisk II).
Not to say Apple's propensity for dropping support left and right isn't very annoying for their users, but dos games on 32bit W