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Apple

Tim Cook Says He Doesn't Remember How Much Google Pays for Search Deal As He Plays Innocent in Epic v Apple Trial (techcrunch.com) 104

Posted by msmash from the sorry-about-that dept.
Apple CEO Tim Cook took his first turn in the witness chair this morning in what is probably the most anticipated testimony of the Epic v. Apple antitrust case. But rather than a fiery condemnation of Epic's shenanigans and allegations, Cook offered a mild, carefully tended ignorance that left many of the lawsuit's key questions unanswered, or unanswerable. TechCrunch reports: The facade of innocent ignorance began when he was asked about Apple's R&D numbers -- $15-20 billion annually for the last three years. Specifically, he said that Apple couldn't estimate how much of that money was directed towards the App Store, because "we don't allocate like that," i.e. research budgets for individual products aren't broken out from the rest. [...] This was further demonstrated when Cook was asked about Apple's deal with Google that keeps the search engine as the default on iOS. Cook said he didn't remember the specific numbers.
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Tim Cook Says He Doesn't Remember How Much Google Pays for Search Deal As He Plays Innocent in Epic v Apple Trial More

Tim Cook Says He Doesn't Remember How Much Google Pays for Search Deal As He Plays Innocent in Epic v Apple Trial

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  • Good to see that Apple and I are aligned that it is best to treat C level employees like mushrooms. They are at their most effective when acting as figureheads.

  • And a towel will improve his memory in less than 30 seconds.

    • Are you suggesting torture (water boarding)? Whatâ(TM)s wrong with you man?

      • The dude was not in any way suggesting water board torture be used in a civil deposition.

        But this is a horrible subject to make a joke about, and Vinegar Joe should be indefinitely suspended from Slashdot, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Spotify as well as shamed publicly for making a racist joke because this barbaric torture was applied to persons of color, and it is LGBTQ-phobic for even thinking of using it on the CEO of Apple.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      Didn't work, subjects often told lies just to make it stop.

  • Stupid questions for a deposition (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pavon ( 30274 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:18PM (#61408254)

    What is the point of asking those sort of questions during a deposition? If Epic actually wanted answers they could have easily had them by requesting them during discovery, instead of relying on someone to be able to recite them from memory on the spot.

    • Depositions (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:32PM (#61408298)

      Not to be pedantic, but this wasn't a deposition. Cook is on the witness stand.

      In any case, I doubt that the CEO of the company I work for knows, off the top of their, head exactly how much is spent on our division's R&D. The VP of R&D absolutely does. And our company is miniscule compared to Apple.

      I'd guess, though, someone asking Craig Federighi how much Apple spends on the App Store wouldn't be headline news.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 )

        Not to be pedantic, but this wasn't a deposition. Cook is on the witness stand.

        In any case, I doubt that the CEO of the company I work for knows, off the top of their, head exactly how much is spent on our division's R&D. The VP of R&D absolutely does. And our company is miniscule compared to Apple.

        I'd guess, though, someone asking Craig Federighi how much Apple spends on the App Store wouldn't be headline news.

        This is as much of a sham as the Arizona Cyber Ninjas so-called "Audit". In other words, a complete sham.

      • Re:Depositions (Score:4, Insightful)

        by LostMyBeaver ( 1226054 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:43PM (#61408518)
        I'd be quite surprised if the VP of R&D would have a coherent breakdown or even more than a moderate understanding of the breakdown of r&d divisions within an organization larger than many governments.

        I have followed the changes in the Darwin source for decade(s) as well as llvm and these groups alone appear large enough that a single vp might not know that breakdown.

        This is why most enterprises employ batches of analysts to spend months producing reports and graphs and why they spend huge amounts on systems to facilitate such needs.

        I just helped my daughter with a math test, the first section which permits no notes required the use of the product rule, chain rule, quotient rule and more. I was like, I use this math every week and I just google it or use wolfram. Who knows this shit from memory?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Toonol ( 1057698 )
        I can't imagine that the CEO doesn't examine, weekly or more frequently, a finance report listing budgeted and actual spend of all the major departments in their company. They'd be negligent if they don't.

        If I run this through my Bayesian processor, I think it's far more likely Cook is simply lying than that he doesn't have a reasonable estimate of those expenses. But... I don't really blame him for lying. I'm sure he was told that this was the safe answer to any question fishing for particulars.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mjwx ( 966435 )

          I can't imagine that the CEO doesn't examine, weekly or more frequently, a finance report listing budgeted and actual spend of all the major departments in their company. They'd be negligent if they don't.

          This... Where money is going is exactly what the Chief Executive Officer is supposed to know. If they don't they are a terrible CEO and likely losing money hand over fist. How much goes on projects is what they have to know, because they have to make decisions that will affect all the companies projects.

          Cook is just trying the "I have no recollection of those events" line but in a corporate world. He damn well does know, he knows exactly how much Google is paying them, he just thinks he can show contempt to

        • No, the CEO should know total R&D budgets. The question was asked about a very specific research area not a project or product. In this case such information is never going to be in a financial report. Read any quarterly or annual report and while they list total budget numbers they never give further insight as to specific things. Internally projects and product costs are tracked; subject areas are not necessarily tracked. The CFO not knowing is going to be a problem; the CEO not knowing is not an issu

    • Re:Stupid questions for a deposition (Score:4, Insightful)

      by BetterSense ( 1398915 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:34PM (#61408304)
      Exactly. And in fairness to Tim Cook, you don't spout off numbers in an official context like that, even if you THINK you know them. The opposition is looking for sound-bite numbers, and you don't feed them. If you are the CEO and your VPs told you that you get from Google $51.4 billion per year for search (is that per fiscal year? Last year or this year? Projected? What did they actually ask for? Are you sure?), and you answer the question "about 50 billion" or "51 billion" or even "51.4 billion", then somebody actually looks at the numbers, finds out it's 51.42billion, the slashdot headline reads APPLE LIES ABOUT INCOME SOURCES, DOWNPLAYS INCOME FROM GOOGLE. He's a smart man for saying "I don't remember the exact figures". Even TFS says they spend "15-20 billion" on R&D; that's a huge range...

      • Exactly. And in fairness to Tim Cook, you don't spout off numbers in an official context like that, even if you THINK you know them. The opposition is looking for sound-bite numbers, and you don't feed them. If you are the CEO and your VPs told you that you get from Google $51.4 billion per year for search (is that per fiscal year? Last year or this year? Projected? What did they actually ask for? Are you sure?), and you answer the question "about 50 billion" or "51 billion" or even "51.4 billion", then somebody actually looks at the numbers, finds out it's 51.42billion, the slashdot headline reads APPLE LIES ABOUT INCOME SOURCES, DOWNPLAYS INCOME FROM GOOGLE. He's a smart man for saying "I don't remember the exact figures". Even TFS says they spend "15-20 billion" on R&D; that's a huge range...

        Give that man an Upvote! He has it exactly right!

    • What is the point of asking those sort of questions during a deposition? If Epic actually wanted answers they could have easily had them by requesting them during discovery, instead of relying on someone to be able to recite them from memory on the spot.

      Because this kind of grandstanding attention whoring bullshit is done for one reason and one reason only.

      To make the head of a public company look stupid and uninformed so you can roast him for a month with half-truth clickbait.

      And yeah, the public is getting kind of numb to this childish shit, especially after the MSM fanned the flames of America burning and rioting for the last two fucking years, so they could get rich off ratings.

      • A defense expert witness in a certain criminal proceedings suggested that maybe the victim succumbed to exhaust fumes from the running police car instead of it being the fault of the officer applying a restraint for too long.

        The prosecuting attorney, instead of just shutting up about a defense expert witness saying that instead of the officer's restrain hold killing the guy, the guy died from being held on the ground next to the exhaust pipe?

        "Do you KNOW what kind of police car was involved?"

        "Yes, a

        • "Yes, that model has four exhaust pipes, two on each side on the back.."

          Sometimes expert witness have done their homework.

          Yes, or sometimes, the "expert" is completely full of shit.

          I could be wrong here, but I cannot find a single image to validate a quad exhaust setup. Yeah, they come with some upgraded engine options, but I'm struggling to believe that a Ford Explorer has a setup akin to a Mustang GT500.

          Ironically enough, there was a lawsuit opened about the exhaust system leaking into the cabin...

          https://www.carcomplaints.com/... [carcomplaints.com]

    • Also these are questions that should be directed to the CFO or Accounting. To me asking the CEO is just a stunt to show the CEO is "hiding something".

    • What is the point of asking those sort of questions during a deposition?

      This is grandstanding for the judge to make Apple look like an all around arsehole to everyone. It's easier to find against Apple if Epic is just "the latest victim" rather than some kind of special entitled snowflake.

      If Epic actually wanted answers

      They don't want answers, they want the Apple to tell the judge. Answers are easy to find. It was $12bn, ironically enough you can find this information on Google, no need for discovery.

  • "Not remembering stuff" is the "I plead the Fifth" of corporate trials, usually spammed on and on for things that would hurt a company and likely their position in it. My country has been doing parliamentary scrutiny rounds of corruption and abuse of power involving past members of government and private companies, and lack of memory is the common denominator of every single testimony. Or offending the inquisitors, which also seems to work well in these non-trial hearings...

    • "Not remembering stuff" is the "I plead the Fifth" of corporate trials, usually spammed on and on for things that would hurt a company and likely their position in it. My country has been doing parliamentary scrutiny rounds of corruption and abuse of power involving past members of government and private companies, and lack of memory is the common denominator of every single testimony. Or offending the inquisitors, which also seems to work well in these non-trial hearings...

      There is no 5th Amendment protection in a Civil Trial. Common misnomer.

      • Perhaps you should go back to law school or do some research. The 5th Amendment is absolutely applicable in civil cases.

        • Perhaps you should go back to law school or do some research. The 5th Amendment is absolutely applicable in civil cases.

          While there are circumstances under which a Witness can Invoke the 5th Amendment in a Civil Case, there are some restrictions.

          I am truly sorry that this is an advertising link; but it just happens to have the most concise explanation of the limitations against "pleading the Fifth" in a Civil Case, and I don't think Epic v. Apple should allow the 5th to be used:

          https://www.abellawfirm.com/at... [abellawfirm.com]

          So, perhaps it is you that should hit the books!

          • I absolutely respect how cordial you were replying to the other user, not falling into a troll trap.

            Defending my point about the 5th: I'm not well versed in law, I'm not even a US citizen or resident. I just wanted to contrast it with self-incrimination avoidance. They clearly aren't pleading the 5th, but the are very comparatively providing a shitty argument of not remembering. Just like T. Cook not remembering how much of the company he runs has to spend pampering Google.

            • I absolutely respect how cordial you were replying to the other user, not falling into a troll trap.

              Defending my point about the 5th: I'm not well versed in law, I'm not even a US citizen or resident. I just wanted to contrast it with self-incrimination avoidance. They clearly aren't pleading the 5th, but the are very comparatively providing a shitty argument of not remembering. Just like T. Cook not remembering how much of the company he runs has to spend pampering Google.

              While I believe he has a rough idea of the amount, I'm also sure he is savvy enough to keep from blurting-out a figure that may be out of date or slightly incorrect in his memory.

              Keep in mind that Apple has a bunch of "deals" for all manner of things, and with Google probably has multiple "deals" that go this way and that way, and even some that partially or fully cancel each other out; so it may seriously not be a figure that Tim Cook as CEO (not CFO) would reasonably have to a testimonial-certainty at his

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rhipf ( 525263 )

        There is no 5th Amendment protection in a Civil Trial.

        That is why they need to say "I don't remember". 8^)

        IANAL but it looks like you can plead the 5th in a civil case.

        https://aaronhall.com/you-can-... [aaronhall.com]
        https://www.abellawfirm.com/at... [abellawfirm.com]

  • What sort of memory do they expect him to have? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:38PM (#61408316)

    I don't know about you, but I don't remember the exact amount I pay in, say, property tax every year. I'd have to go look it up if the consequences of me miss-remembering is perjury.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by xwin ( 848234 )
      I do remember how much I pay in property tax, maybe not going back 10 years but for the last couple of years for sure. I do not remember with the exact accuracy but to the nearest 1000, I definitely remember. Because it is not a trivial amount of money. So unless Google pays Apple something like $53.50 for the privilege, Tim Cook would remember it. I am reasonably sure that he was involved in the decision to take money from Google and possibly even in the negotiations with Google. This deal is reported to b

      • This is non trivial amount even for Tim Cook and for Apple.

        This is a completely trivial amount for Apple, a company with $200bn cash on hand. It may not be trivial for you but it certainly is for them. This is not an acquisition. This is not a merger. This is just a deal between two companies, the details of which are likely non of Cook's primary concern.

        Does your wife know how much you pay in property taxes, or was it sufficient that one of you in the household plays the CFO? You know, ... the guy responsible for managing finances.

        Now Luca Maestri didn't know the

      • $8-12 billion spread over, say, a 5-year deal, would put it well under 1% of their gross annual revenue. He likely heard the number at some point, but remembering those specifics years later isn’t realistic.

        For a similar comparison, suppose you were a manager who was put on the stand and was asked to account for how much you billed a client for the work your employees did two or three years ago on a project that took a week or two or three. You obviously wouldn’t have your notes with you on the

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      I don't know about you, but I don't remember the exact amount I pay in, say, property tax every year. I'd have to go look it up if the consequences of me miss-remembering is perjury.

      It's not your job to know how much you pay in tax... Its the CEO's job to know costs and income. If you forgot the basic tasks of your job, you would be fired.

      By pretending not to know, Cook is in contempt.

      • Its the CEO's job to know costs and income

        Only in a broad sense. The CFO is the one who's supposed to know actual amounts.

  • Now
    Prosecutor: Mr. Cook, what was the dollar amount of the deal Apple made with Google to keep Google as the default IOS search?
    Cook: I can't remember.
    June 2020:
    Twitter: :Today, I'm proud to announce Apple’s Racial Equity and Justice Initiative, with a $100 million commitment.

    So he can remember how much he spends on racial equity, but not what he earned on a primary function on their phones?

  • What a neutral, balanced article. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by RightSaidFred99 ( 874576 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:44PM (#61408326)

    I don't even need to read all that trash to know it's meaningless junk, and I actually despise Apple, but this is trash. An example of the idiocy from scanning it "The questioning of Cook by his own company’s counsel was gentle". No shit? Really! Wow, you fucking journalists really have a keen insight into humanity, you mean ones own lawyer doesn't grill their client harshly? Wowie Zowie, Insightful journalism! I was sure Apples counsel would all but verbally waterboard Tim Cook and accuse him of various nefarious crimes!

    And what kind of ding-dong dipshit thinks every CEO personally knows details about spending? A CEO is supported by a huge staff, it's like asking the President how much money in taxes they received from Nevada last year.

    Smarmy tech journalists really are low-lives.

  • said it best on his album Comedy is not pretty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org], "I forgot armed robbery was illegal". Apparently Tim Cook is listening to too much 70's comedy.
  • That means one of two things: either he is incompetent, or else he's lying.

    • Re:He doesn't remember? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:14PM (#61408432)

      That means one of two things: either he is incompetent, or else he's lying.

      Quick! How much did you spend on Groceries last year? How about Movie Rentals? Eating out?

      Being a CEO doesn't mean you know each and every detail about the business. That's what minions are for.

      Too bad Epic's attorneys don't have enough real grist for the mill, and have to resort to asinine tactics like the ones that have defined their "strategy" so far...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by xwin ( 848234 )
        I can tell to within the nearest billion how much I spent on all of these things. I am pretty sure that all of these items combined and each of them individually were less than 1 billion.
        But if you can't tell how much you spent on all and any of these things, you probably constantly broke since you can't track your spending.

        • I can tell to within the nearest billion how much I spent on all of these things. I am pretty sure that all of these items combined and each of them individually were less than 1 billion.

          But if you can't tell how much you spent on all and any of these things, you probably constantly broke since you can't track your spending.

          But to Apple, "to the nearest billion" is nearly the same as "to the nearest thousand" for most people.

          So, no.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mjwx ( 966435 )

        That means one of two things: either he is incompetent, or else he's lying.

        Quick! How much did you spend on Groceries last year? How about Movie Rentals? Eating out?

        Being a CEO doesn't mean you know each and every detail about the business. That's what minions are for.

        Too bad Epic's attorneys don't have enough real grist for the mill, and have to resort to asinine tactics like the ones that have defined their "strategy" so far...

        Food shopping, approx £40 per week.
        Move rentals, exactly £ 0 per week (I liked the 90s too, but who TF rents movies in 2021).
        Eating out, approx £ 20 per week.

        Knowing your weekly spend (or monthly, however you want to calculate it) is called a personal budget, if you don't have one you're a complete idiot. They are a pretty basic thing and quite necessary if you want a healthy bank balance. Next dumb question?

        As CEO he is expected to know the income and outgoings of the company he c

        • Cook avoiding answering the question... That should put him in contempt.

          How? Unless Epic's attorneys have Cook in a Deposition or previous sworn testimony giving a contradictory statement, or if the Court has specifically compelled an answer, then no "contempt" has occurred.

          Sorry to burst your Hater Bubble.

    • No, the most likely possibility is that his job does not require he know every single budgetary detail of what Apple spends. That is why CFOs exist. Would you accuse him of lying if Epic asked him details of Swift programming. Or why iPhone 11 how a certain feature.

  • Yellow Journalism (Score:3)

    by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 ) on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:57PM (#61408370)

    Remember when Journalists were supposed to be impartial reporters of the news?

    No trace of that on Slashdot, as evidenced by the snarky, clickbait-y Headline, and ridiculously-slanted, nearly libelous, Summary.

  • "Tim, you're holding your head wrong!"

  • ME: "Okay, then who can we subpoena to come in and answer that question? And whom works directly under this person?"

    By the end of the day you'd have 10-20 worried employees who just got thrown under the bus.

    And in the old days at least two of them would be spending the night in front of shredding machines.

  • These billionaires know where they are going and it's hot hot place with their master having horns in head.... That's the price of playing it 4 times wrong way....

  • It's amazing that such a feeble-minded person can be in charge of a trillion-dollar corporation. America is truly a wonderful place and Tim Cook is a saint for working so hard in providing opportunities for the next generation to overcome his learning disability. In Europe, he might have just become a homeless artist.

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