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Movies Television The Courts Apple

Apple Must Face Lawsuit for Telling Consumers They Can 'Buy' Movies, TV Shows (hollywoodreporter.com) 130

If possession is nine-tenths of the law, what happens when possession gets slippery? From a report: That's a question for a federal courtroom in Sacramento, California, where Apple is facing a putative class action over the way consumers can "buy" or "rent" movies, TV shows and other content in the iTunes Store. David Andino, the lead plaintiff in this case, argues the distinction is deceptive. He alleges Apple reserves the right to terminate access to what consumers have "purchased," and in fact, has done so on numerous occasions. This week, U.S. District Court Judge John Mendez made clear he isn't ready to buy into Apple's view of consumer expectations in the digital marketplace. "Apple contends that '[n]o reasonable consumer would believe' that purchased content would remain on the iTunes platform indefinitely," writes Mendez. "But in common usage, the term 'buy' means to acquire possession over something. It seems plausible, at least at the motion to dismiss stage, that reasonable consumers would expect their access couldn't be revoked." Apple tried other ways to slip away from claims of false advertising and unfair competition. For example, it tried the time-tested approach of challenging Andino's "injury" to knock his potential standing as a plaintiff.
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Apple Must Face Lawsuit for Telling Consumers They Can 'Buy' Movies, TV Shows

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  • by h33t l4x0r ( 4107715 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:13AM (#61304716)
    I've got a bridge to sell this guy. Oh wait, he sues people? Never mind.
  • by DeplorableCodeMonkey ( 4828467 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:15AM (#61304726)

    We should have an addendum to all contract law that states that when there is a conflict between marketing presentations and the legalese in the contract, it's implicit bad faith in court. Go full on Napoleonic Law on advertisers here. Guilty until proven innocent. If you use commonly understood terms like "buy content" it implies all traditional rights including the right to hold, move, lend and resell. The only out would be to explicit state "now with Apple you can buy a license to a movie."

    Of course, that would have them crapping themselves because the moment honesty in advertising has dire consequences people would start asking pesky questions like "just what is a license for a movie" and then pretty soon no one wants one.

    • by sd4f ( 1891894 )

      I'm not familiar with US law, but in other common law jurisdictions, sales puffery (nb: puff/puffery is the legal term for it) is permitted to an extent as long as the appropriate weasel words are used. Ultimately though, you can't outright lie, but as long as descriptions stay subjective, the courts will treat it as if no one would really believe those claims.

      Personally, I do agree with your sentiment, and all digital distributors should be made to rectify the situation. Classical terms such as straight fo

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:15AM (#61304732)

    "Buying" something implies that you own it thereafter, in perpetuity.

    Owning something, means that you take care of it and can even transfer it to other people - none of that is true with movies you "Buy" from Apple (or anyone else for that matter, at least not for digital movies).

    It's that complete lack of transferability that brings the "buy" terminology into question for me.

    There is a strong secondary point - through no action of your own, access to any content may be revoked at any time, or content even altered without your permission. That shouldn't be true of anything you "buy".

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      When has buying something always meant "in perpetuity" legally? In this case there is a documented license and contract with clauses for termination. A contact has to specify "in perpetuity". For example, SCO tried to terminate IBM's license to Unix but IBM's license was specified in clear contract language to be both "irrevocable" and "in perpetuity".
      • When has buying something always meant "in perpetuity" legally?

        That is the common understanding for most things you buy. For instance, the ketchup bottle I have is mine until I discard it - who otherwise has claim to it?

        It is the exception, rather than the rule, the buying something has conditions attached. In the example you gave a license to access something I would arguing is not buying anything, but renting - thus the need for the "in perpetuity" clause to define the rental period as unlimited. I don

        • That is the common understanding for most things you buy. For instance, the ketchup bottle I have is mine until I discard it - who otherwise has claim to it?

          Again when has that ever applied to something that clearly has a contract which spells out terms. I have never bought a ketchup bottle that had a license and contract. You seem to be missing this point. Contracts must spell out an item be perpetual.

          It is the exception, rather than the rule, the buying something has conditions attached. In the example you gave a license to access something I would arguing is not buying anything, but renting - thus the need for the "in perpetuity" clause to define the rental period as unlimited. I don't think the IBM license was ever defined as something they "bought".

          You are assuming/asserting things like a rental license does not have "in perpetuity" but a purchase license must have it. Please cite the contract. I would guess it does say that. As for purchases, copyrighted content has always been understood to be licensed fr

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by SuperKendall ( 25149 )

            Again when has that ever applied to something that clearly has a contract which spells out terms

            When has it not?

            Contracts must spell out an item be perpetual.

            Only for rentals.

            The very fact there is a contract at all implies you are not actually buying a thing, nor do you own it if a contract defines terms under which you "own" the thing.

            a purchase license must have it.

            Now I am afraid, you must prove there is such a thing as a "purchase license".

            • When has it not?

              You keep starting out with the premise: Since X does not have contract, it has always been this way. What part of "There is a contract" is not clear?

              Only for rentals.

              No. Your false dichotomy: A rental has a limited time period, therefore all purchases must by default be perpetual. That is flawed logic. Again, what part of "There is a contract that says otherwise" is not clear?

              The very fact there is a contract at all implies you are not actually buying a thing

              What the hell are you smoking? There are all sorts of contracts that cover purchases. For example if I buy a house, I will normally sign multiple cont

          • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

            Unless you are trading securities - you don't 'buy' a contract you enter into one.

            Nobody says I bought a contract to have Dave's BBQ cater our events this summer. They'd say I contracted with Daves... or something similar.

            • My point again which both of you missed: If there is a contract, it spells out terms. Both of your premises start out with: Since I don't have a contract with X . . . You started out by missing the point. There is a contract.
          • by sd4f ( 1891894 )

            Contracts must spell out an item be perpetual.

            That's not exactly the case. Good contracts will specify that, bad contracts will survive until there's a dispute and then it will have to be resolved in court if the parties involved can't agree. I would think that if terms such as purchase or buy are used, without a time constraint specified in the contract, then a court would probably side with it being in perpetuity as that would be what is commonly understood by those terms. The goal of a contract is only to define the terms in case there's a dispute a

            • The default of contracts is that you cannot assume terms that are not in the contract. His assumption is that all purchases are perpetual by default even though this case is about copyrighted work which by law has already been established to have limits. For example buying a copy of the work does not grant ownership and control of the copyrights. All copyrighted work is understood to be licensed. The problem with DRM on copyrighted work has subject to factors like authentication. For example if you bought a

      • It seems, FTFA, that the buyer is complaining that Apple either did not make it clear that a license was purchased, and that for a finite time, possibly with revocation without notice, or that the purchase was specifically for a duration. License v. purchase.

        I wonder if Apple marketing promoted the availability, portability, and convenience, neglecting to point out that it was mere license, and could be gone. I wonder further if Apple 'knew or should have known' they could not deliver the purchased goods or

        • It seems, FTFA, that the buyer is complaining that Apple either did not make it clear that a license was purchased, and that for a finite time, possibly with revocation without notice, or that the purchase was specifically for a duration. License v. purchase.

          "Did not make clear". Is there not a contract? Also by default: Copyrighted work is licensed. You buy a CD; you do not buy the rights to sell digital or physical copies unless the copyright holder grants you that right.

          I wonder if Apple marketing promoted the availability, portability, and convenience, neglecting to point out that it was mere license, and could be gone. I wonder further if Apple 'knew or should have known' they could not deliver the purchased goods or services due to licensing or other agreements with the 'actual' owners.

          All copyrighted work is licensed. Maybe the average person does not understand that but this is basic Copyright 101. As for goods or services changing, that is also at the whim of the copyright holders. Apple as the authorized agent can only do what the holder wants. For example, people were

          • The point isn't what Apple can or cannot do, it's that what they are advertising doesn't match up with what they're delivering. In this case they're saying you can buy a song when what you are buying is a limited, revokable ability to access a song.

            Apple contends that '[n]o reasonable consumer would believe' that purchased content would remain on the iTunes platform indefinitely

            Bullshit, that's exactly what people expect.

            • The point isn't what Apple can or cannot do, it's that what they are advertising doesn't match up with what they're delivering. In this case they're saying you can buy a song when what you are buying is a limited, revokable ability to access a song.

              This has always been a problem with DRM in general and not just Apple. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, multiple game studios all do the exact same thing. Are you going to sue them as well?

              Bullshit, that's exactly what people expect.

              Again this has been why people are against DRM. If you buy DRM content you cannot expect it for function in definitely. For example Microsoft turned off all their PlaysForSure authentication servers a decade ago so people who bought content may not be able to play it today.

  • by JBMcB ( 73720 )

    I only "bought" a few things digitally, on iTunes and Amazon. After time, both services have "cancelled" a couple of my "purchases." For both services, they refunded my original purchase price. So, assuming the plaintiff also received a refund, what damages are the plaintiff alleging?

    • Why are NFTs catching on if this is a problem?
    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      Traditionally you buy a piece of plastic or vinyl or the like and have the right to play it as long as it holds out and you have a player. If you break the plastic or it gets stolen you donâ(TM)t get another copy of the content, not even a refund.

      For the most part, I donâ(TM)t purchase digital content that I canâ(TM)t shift. What this guy is going run up against is that traditionally you have bought a limited license, and that continues to be the case.

    • I suspect Apple's gonna whip out the fact that you can download any of your purchases and back that up on your own. At least that got them out of some trouble when they pulled a movie from the catalog and existing licensees couldn't re-download it anymore. (note: I'm really fuzzy on these particular details, clarifications welcome!)

      HOWEVER, I actually do agree with clarifying the term 'buy'. Anything that educates the consumer is always a win in my book. Here's an example: When Google Fiber one off

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:24AM (#61304766)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Same here. Just be aware that Blu-ray can still screw you after sale, though: internet-connected Bluray players can download key revocation lists denying you access to the content you already own and, apparently, Bluray discs themselves can contain key revocation lists to do the same (though I've never encountered one).
  • In the case of an in-store purchase of an application, this is equivalent to purchasing a perpetual license. But even in the case of a truly irrevocable perpetual license agreement, if the licensee commits a material breach, you may have the right to terminate the agreement. So it depends on what is stipulated in the license agreement and what can be considered a material breach. This will be tested in this particular case and it will probably be difficult to generalize it to all possible types of violation

    • The issue is Apple does not market that it is licensed to you, they say you are purchasing outright with no further financial implications for beneficial use. Logically that compares to a VHS tape. DVDs and beyond imposed additional restrictions that I am not aware of being legally tested.

      Apple has even touted a their cloud offerings as enhancing this ownership status. I have never had a case of them revoking this ownership status personally, but if done without a refund I agree there is a problem.

    • I did not read anywhere in the license that it was clearly specified to be "perpetual". That first assertion has to be shown to be true first.
  • by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:39AM (#61304832)

    then so should the money paid for it.

  • by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#61304898)

    The main problem I think is how the terminology is being (ab)used.

    Too often, "buy" is meant to say "paid money for", as in "I bought a subscription to Netflix" - obviously you don't "own" the subscription, you paid money for access to that subscription.

  • Digital Rights (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The MAZZTer ( 911996 ) <megazzt.gmail@com> on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:08AM (#61304992) Homepage

    I think people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that digital items are just as valuable as their physical counterparts, but consumer rights for digital items are not protected and they need to be.

    The closest thing we have right now is the Steam Market, where digital goods from videogames which opt-in can be bought and sold for real money.

    But it's still a far cry from an open market since Valve and the game publisher take their own cuts of each sale, and it's a closed ecosystem. But to be fair people use Steam to launder money and I am sure Valve doesn't want to be an accessory to crimes involving such.

    If we had a purely open system for exchanging and buying/selling digital items just as we do physical ones, the problem then becomes that, ironically, the big companies are right; these digital items have no value, but not because the big companies are just saying that to try and get away with revoking access to them, but because of the exact opposite; digital items taken out of a closed ecosystem with any DRM stripped can be endlessly copied and redistributed at virtually no cost. Plus for things like video game items you could easily manufacture rare items out of thin air or modify common items into rarer forms trivially.

  • by FudRucker ( 866063 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:35AM (#61305084)
    the more i hate the corporations that own and control the software on them, Apple's iphone and Google's Android (and that includes OEMs that build the various android brands)
    i sure hope phones like the fairphone and other GNU/FOSS designed philosopy type smartphones step in and rescue the consumer phone market from these digital tyrants that Apple and Google has turned into
  • by Registered Coward v2 ( 447531 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:38AM (#61305094)
    When I bought various DVDs they came with a digital copy - so if Apple loses then Sony, Amazon, WalMart, et.al. would have to offer the same remedy in theory, for any movie access has been revoked. Not a bad idea. I want my $1 back for a song no long available in my Amazon account even though it still shows up as I paid for it.
    • I don't think they would, It's been a while but I always thought it was advertised as a DVD + digital access. Selling "Digital Access" is a much vaguer term that could be argued about rather than buying something.
      • I don't think they would, It's been a while but I always thought it was advertised as a DVD + digital access. Selling "Digital Access" is a much vaguer term that could be argued about rather than buying something.

        True, but you were still sold a specific product in digital access. I'm sure somewhere in the TOCs they said they can end access anytime; it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

  • I bought 1 song(Comeback Baby Comeback). Apple stopped licensing the music. iTunes no longer hosted the music to stream. Gone!

    My only recourse was to go back two generations on my Mac disks. I paid to have a removed hard drive, fix the electronics and then find a SCSI interface that could down load that one song. That was $122 greenbucks.

    Buying something never means Apple is selling possession. It sells tickets. Your ticket allows access. You are given permission to keep a copy but you never own nor is Appl

  • by andyring ( 100627 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:47AM (#61305128) Homepage

    This is EXACTLY why I don't buy digital-only things. I want the PHYSICAL item. I don't want to be stuck relying on someone else's "good graces" to provide continuous access to something I purchased and own.

    I can watch a physical movie whenever I want, wherever I want. No need for internet. Same thing with books. I can grab a book from my shelf and read it. No electricity or internet required. No batteries to worry about. It's a freaking book.

    • Digital is fine, and with regular backups can outlast any physical media. If you own a file in a standard format, you can likely play it until the apocalypse.

      The problem is DRM schemes that don't let you actually "own" anything.

    • by antdude ( 79039 )

      Digital MP3s are fine for me since they don't require Internet to play. Doesn't physical Blu-Ray discs have online DRM?

      • They do. Access to your discs can be denied if your playback device isn't connected to the Internet or hasn't had software updates in awhile, and additional content can be dynamically forced upon you (e.g. ideally they just use it to show you newer trailers than what was available when the disc was pressed, but more nefariously they could use it for things like shoving even more unskippable ads/warnings before the main feature).

        Honestly, blu-rays are pretty terrible compared to ripping them into a server ap

    • Digital-only is fine. DRM-encumbered digital-only is the only problem here.

      In my case, everything ends up in Plex. FLAC from Bandcamp or CD, MKV from DVD and blu-ray (via MakeMKV), MP4 from iTunes (via TunesKit), and so on. Doesn't matter what it is, any media I "purchase" gets stripped of DRM and loaded into Plex. If it can't be stripped of DRM, it doesn't get "purchased".

  • Buy in this case is continued rental.

    Rental until when?
    "We don't know"

    Well maybe you should remove the buy option altogether.
    Or create an option "Rent until [date license expires]"

    Honesty is such a lonely word.
  • by qwerty shrdlu ( 799408 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:25AM (#61305306)
    Let Apple cut off access at anytime and for any reason. In exchange for a full refund. With interest at the same reasonable and non-usurious rates that Apple charges on its credit cards.
  • by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:34AM (#61305374) Journal

    "Who still uses DVDs nowadays?"

    I do. And guess what, I never have to worry about a corporation taking away my ability to watch what I want when I want. I own the physical copy. I can make as many backups as I wish and use them for my own pleasure.

    While not everything is available on physical media, those that are should be used to their fullest. You paid for it, you own it. You can't take the sky from me.

  • Of course you can buy movies from iTunes. You buy the movie, you download it, you keep it forever. As a convenience, you can download the movie again as long as it is available, But the first download is when you purchased the movie.
  • I think Apple deserves to lose this one, and I usually find I side with Apple on these lawsuits! In this case, it addresses a long-standing problem that many Apple content buyers have dealt with. I bought a number of music tracks in the past from the iTunes store, only to find Apple no longer carried them, years later. They typically got away with pulling them out from under people by making the excuse that, "You still get a local copy downloaded into iTunes on your computer, so it's your responsibility t

  • This is weird but it amuses me. This has been my COVID project. I have been building a Time Machine for the last 30 years or so. I have made two Time Capsules and hidden them in my Time Machine. One in February 2020 and a second one this morning. The Time Capsule is an SD card full of photos, documents, movies, TV shows, and music. My idea is the capsules will be found in 50 to 100 years. I don't have any control over the date they are found but the time is consistent with other Time Machines of my
    • Flash wells have a limited life, and are unlikely to last 50-100 years. They'll just find a blank disk. (if the can even find and SD slot.)

      Honestly paper is much more likely to survive. Optimal media- mabye,

  • If consumers have no reasonable expectation that their purchases will be available forever, then movie studios should have no reasonable expectation that pirated movies will be watched forever.

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