Epic's Battle For 'Open Platforms' Ignores Consoles' Massive Closed Market (arstechnica.com) 181
Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo demand the same platform control -- and the same 30% fee. From a report: Yesterday, Epic used Fortnite to essentially wage open war against Apple's and Google's mobile app marketplaces. First it added a discounted "Epic Direct Payment" option alongside the standard iOS App Store and Google Play payment options in Fortnite, in direct violation of those stores' policies. Then, when Fortnite was predictably removed from both platforms, Epic filed lawsuits against both companies, alleging "anti-competitive restraints and monopolistic practices" in the mobile app marketplace. That move came alongside a heavy-handed PR blitz, including a video asking players to "join the fight to stop 2020 from becoming '1984.'" But through this entire public fight for "open mobile platforms," as Epic puts it, there is one major set of closed platforms that the company seems happy to continue doing business with. We're speaking, of course, about video game consoles.
The major console makers also all exercise full control over what games and apps can appear in their own walled gardens. When it comes to iOS, Epic says that "by blocking consumer choice in software installation, Apple has created a problem so they can profit from the solution." When it comes to consoles, Epic is silent about the same state of affairs. In this sense, consoles are even more restrictive than Android, where games and apps (including Fortnite) can be sideloaded without using the Google Play Store. Yet Google has earned a lawsuit for its role in this state of affairs, while the console makers have remained undisturbed. In addition to the business implications, console makers' total control of their marketplaces also has a direct impact on the types of content that players get to play. Any game that receives an Adults Only rating from the ESRB isn't welcome on any of the three major consoles, for instance. And if you want to use UWP to code an N64 emulator that works on the Xbox One, Microsoft will pull it down as quickly as it can.
The major console makers also all exercise full control over what games and apps can appear in their own walled gardens. When it comes to iOS, Epic says that "by blocking consumer choice in software installation, Apple has created a problem so they can profit from the solution." When it comes to consoles, Epic is silent about the same state of affairs. In this sense, consoles are even more restrictive than Android, where games and apps (including Fortnite) can be sideloaded without using the Google Play Store. Yet Google has earned a lawsuit for its role in this state of affairs, while the console makers have remained undisturbed. In addition to the business implications, console makers' total control of their marketplaces also has a direct impact on the types of content that players get to play. Any game that receives an Adults Only rating from the ESRB isn't welcome on any of the three major consoles, for instance. And if you want to use UWP to code an N64 emulator that works on the Xbox One, Microsoft will pull it down as quickly as it can.
Remember when Epic was cool? (Score:4, Funny)
At least we still have Unreal and Unreal Tournament to slaughter each other in.
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Ask Silicon Knights [wikipedia.org] how cool Epic's legal department.
Not saying Silicon Knights weren't in the wrong (not in the right by any stretch though), merely showing that Epic has always had a litigious streak...
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Go back more like Jazz the Jackrabbit, Jill of The Jungle, etc.
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On the flipside that is the model of these platforms. And they don't see why they should advertise, host, support, patch, and pay the bandwidth for some deadbeat game which reneges on the terms and conditions. And in the case of Android,
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Re:Remember when Epic was cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm one of the fortnite-haters. Never played it myself. I am sure it's actually a pretty good game, to get so popular. Us haters don't really dislike the game: We just hate how it achieved such ridiculous levels of popularity, unending media coverage, and domination of all game-related discussion groups. No game can possibly be good enough to deserve that much fixation from so many people, so we can't understand why a simple third-person shooter achieved such success, and such devoted players.
I also hate it because I work in education, and have watched a lot of students waste entire lessons either watching other people play Fortnite on streaming sites, or hunting for two hours solid for a fortnite video that has somehow evaded my own targetted rewriting of the web-filter rules.
Re: Remember when Epic was cool? (Score:2)
I feel the same way about the Super Mario Bros franchise. Why did it get so insanely popular in the 80's and 90's, no counting for taste. It wasn't the best game on the original NES and the spin off TV show and movie was a horrible money grab as unwatchable as the Star Wars Holiday Special.
P.S. as much as I hate the franchise, Super Mario World was the only game you should bother with on the SNES. All downhill after that.
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I also hate it because I work in education, and have watched a lot of students waste entire lessons either watching other people play Fortnite on streaming sites
My wife sent an email to all parents when the COVID-19 restrictions were announced specifically pointing out the success of this semester's education will depend on their ability to keep kids from playing Fortnite. It's quite amazing as the restrictions came into place the news stories about server loads on Fortnite reigned supreme. Kids are outright self-destructive, and Fortnight is as addictive to them as nicotine.
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You mean like most of the modern entertainment and consumption economy?
Epic is acting in line with my personal beliefs on how corporations should act, and they put themselves out there, with the potential precedent they might set directly translating to, potentially, up to around 27% more money staying in developers' pockets.
Now, it goes before the courts to see if they agree with Epic and I. In 2020, I'd almost stopped believing in corporations acting for the public good. Seems that not all hope is lost. O
Remember when Arcade Games were cool? (Score:2)
Arcade games where always about making money since space invaders they have been stealing your coins. Models come and go Shareware, Expansion Packs, DLC.
Who is the biggest platform? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re: Who is the biggest platform? (Score:2)
I dislike Apple, but I have to admit that developing for them is one of the easiest experiences. I have no idea what you are comparing it to, if you want bad, I could give you the example of BREW (Verizon's Get It Now). Apart from the lousy dev experience, you paid $1000 per device to be tested, requiring a huge amount of paperwork for it and you needed to pass about 30 or so devices before Verizon could consider you. And after you got in, that's when the real problems started ! I shudder to even think abou
They know which side their bread is buttered on. (Score:5, Insightful)
They're probably not ignoring those other closed platforms, but rather waiting until they have more leverage before going up against them.
Epic Games makes nearly all of their Fortnite revenue from gaming consoles. If they sue the console makers, they lose most or all of their revenue, and may not get the contract changes they're looking for, depending on what the courts say. That would be a really stupid opening salvo.
When going to war, one always starts with the enemy who can cause the least harm in response.
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Fair point, but I also wonder - do consoles require exclusive buy-through agreements for items and knock a 30% clip off the spend?
You can buy DLC codes or even physical games and I don't *think* MS/PSN gets a (substantial? any?) cut of that money. I've seen discounted games and codes for the console market. Heck, I can buy various game currency at CVS and I rather doubt 30% of that is going to MS or PSN.
To me, that seems to be the relevant issue...and then it gets even more tricky. Uber is free but has t
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Not sure I see a downside there. Either they are making money that way or they aren't. If they aren't, they'll raise rates until
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but rather waiting until they have more leverage before going up against them.
They'll need a lot of leverage to counter the $250 million investment Sony made in Epic Games. https://www.theverge.com/2020/... [theverge.com]
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Will Epic Allow Third Party Sellers in Fortnite? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, why should people have to buy V-Buck from Fortnite and go through Fortnite's storefront to get cosmetic items. Fortnite will most assuredly provide options for third parties to sell items to Fortnite users directly and bypass the V-Buck tax, right? Otherwise they might be holding a monopoly on access to the valuable market of Fortnite players!
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You never had kids, and forgotten what it was like to be one.
You have the rich kids playing with the non-free styles. vs. the kids with the free styles. Jokes on how they are poor, or just don't play the game enough to be considered good.
This isn't logical. But these are klds
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You never had kids, and forgotten what it was like to be one.
You have the rich kids playing with the non-free styles. vs. the kids with the free styles. Jokes on how they are poor, or just don't play the game enough to be considered good.
This isn't logical. But these are klds
I guess what you're saying is true? But what does it have to do with whether they buy those items through Epic's store or a third party?
Re:Will Epic Allow Third Party Sellers in Fortnite (Score:4, Informative)
Epic allows games distributed via their game store to use any payment processor they want: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/... [gamesindustry.biz]
Behaving like Verca Salt (Score:2)
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Console Aren't Exactly Equivalent (Score:2)
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Modern consoles are essentially PCs with a couple of special high bandwidth buses for GPU and SSD I/O. The main distinguishing feature is that they have a hardware assisted hypervisor that makes sure only authorized software can run on the platform. Not unlike iPhone + iOS.
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They are not general purpose computers because the console makers say so, not because of any inherit technological limitations.
That's correct. But the console makers have "always" said so (PS3 Linux aside.)
As for selling at a loss, that's the console maker's fault, not mine and not any third party dev's. I don't have to bend to their business model if it's flawed.
Apple historically hasn't used this model. Then they said "Well it's different for phones". It makes the most sense to go after Apple first because their defense is weakest.
There is not way you can stand there and say the Apple case is black and white and not also do so for consoles.
It's not morally or logically different, it's legally different. But if they win the case with Apple, they'll be in a much stronger position to go after the console manufacturers.
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That's correct. But the console makers have "always" said so (PS3 Linux aside.)
So what? All that means is that no one has challenged them on it. That does not make it any sort of legal precedent, as that would actually require, you know, someone to challenge them on it.
Apple historically hasn't used this model. Then they said "Well it's different for phones". It makes the most sense to go after Apple first because their defense is weakest.
Again, so what? This makes no difference legally. As for going after them first, it's less about weakness, more about cutting off their revenue. Epic makes way more money on console versions of Fortnite than they do on mobile.
It's not morally or logically different, it's legally different.
I'm going to need you to support this assertion, because as far as I can see, they are in no
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Apple set the precedent of permitting third party applications before they decided you couldn't on their new class of device. Even the Newton permitted it. It's also standard to be able to load your own apps on phones. Only the iPhone has ever prohibited it.
Only two mainstream consoles have ever permitted you to run your own software without jumping through hoops. One was Net Yaroze, which was special but available for sale regardless. The other was the PS3. I expect Sony to be the next target if this actio
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Apples to oranges (Score:3)
Apple's Mac product has software which may be purchased anywhere, developed in any fashion, etc.
Google's other products are accessed from Macs, Windows, iOS, Android, all over the place.
This differs dramatically from consoles, where the inherent initial design is limited, more akin to a standalone arcade machine custom designed for one game. Epic might be establishing legal precedent, but I doubt consoles would be seen in the same light as there are competing console platforms. There are costs inherent in working with developers to establish titles on consoles.
The Apple store is akin to a protection racket. You don't do business unless you do what they say and pay them despite them not bringing any value to the relationship. Google's less onerous as there are alternatives, but they are the main one and their recent packaging changes negatively impact other options.
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There's a couple other details which you didn't address.
The biggest is the fact that mobile phones are really - one per user; while consoles are frequently multiple per user / multiple users console.
Lots of people have multiple consoles, or a console plus laptops/PCs etc. So these people can access fortnite via a variety of options and if Nintendo were to eject or otherwise prove inhospitable it'll piss people off but they won't be impacted the same way. It's perfectly reasonable for people to have to get d
Tomatoes to Pears (Score:2)
All platforms are not alike.
Playing a game on a mobile device? you are stuck on closed platforms.
Want to play a game on a 'static' device? Well you can choose to play it on a closed platform (PSx, Xbox, Nintendo, etc) or you can play it on another platform (PC).
There's no choice on the mobile platform.
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But I'd say that going after Apple and Google is still a start. It's better than nothing.
Pointing fingers at Epic because they don't do the same with consoles has the unmistakable stench of whataboutery sticking to it.
If they succeed at this, which I hope they do, this
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> Playing a game on a mobile device? you are stuck on closed platforms.
What, have you only ever used an iPhone? I currently have three app distribution platforms on my Android and there are others.
Game consoles should be open platforms too (Score:2)
Hopefully the antitrust scrutiny on Apple wedges open the consoles as well.
Enough with the walled gardens.
It should be illegal to disallow sideloading on any computer that has an app development platform.
Epic Games Store (Score:3)
The same thing on PC; they want freedom on iOS and Android but force PC players to use Epic to install games (and even run them) that are only available on their marketplace, paying the developers for exclusivity deals. Don't get me wrong; I do not want to go back to the wild west of game updates, downloading them from the developers' site and all manually so the infrastructure is definitely worth SOMETHING (which another reason I think Epic's current direct payment is still a bit bullshit even if the 30% cut is excessive). However, they do the same shit to make $$$.
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But forcing exclusivity on a platform is just as bad, is my point. They're arguing for competition and then go around and limit it on another platform using their marketplace.
I didn't say they weren't entitled to make money; I even said that I understand the service has value and Epic's point stands even if they are pushing the issue in the wrong way (as their 0% cut goes too far in my opinion). The issue at hand is the cost to the buyer and seller AND the forced platform they are required to use. The iOS a
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If a murderer was to say that child rape is wrong, then it invalidates his position because he's a murderer?
If only he who is without sin should be allowed to cast the first stone, there probably won't be justice done, ever.
If Epic wins this case they might set a precedent that could be used against Epic's platform itself in order to bust it open.
You people have your heads stuck so far up your assess that you can't see the huge possible benefit to all developers and consumers if thi
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If a murderer was to say that child rape is wrong, then it invalidates his position because he's a murderer?
I think you reversed what the parent is saying. If a murderer was to say child rape is wrong then it doesn't make him any less of a murderer and he shouldn't be praised for it.
He's not wrong, Epic isn't wrong, but the murderer is still a murderer and Epic are still anti-competitive hypocritical cunts claiming to be on the side of openness while attempting to close in an ecosystem elsewhere.
"However, none of this is ultimately our business" (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
30% for processing a transaction is INSANE (Score:2)
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Remember when Microsoft was forced to offer other search options within their dominant internet explorer browser, I feel like this is similar because it is a clear abuse of monopoly power
Microsoft is a piece of software on an open platform. Apple is a vertically integrated closed platform who doesn't owe you as a developer shit.
Microsoft got done for targeting a company, Apple treats all developers equally regardless if you're some dude with an SDK, or a rich fuckwit with Fortnite money.
It's important to learn these differences when talking about monopoly abuse. It'll show you why Apple isn't.
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Epic wants $, not open gaming. (Score:2)
Come on.
How much clearer can this be? It isn't about a better experience or an 'open' garden.
They want that 30% that Apple has been skimming off the top.
If they were truly trying to be open, they wouldn't have gone ahead and established their OWN walled-off store. They could quite easily have restricted their releases to say, GOG.
Consolation (Score:2)
Epic knows that if they like the consoles will black ball you.
Look at Nintendo when they got away with telling developers if you develop for Atari we will not let you on our platform,
One step at a time (Score:2)
If Epic (or anyone else) can make legal headway against Apple and/or Google, then they can turn their attention on the consoles. If a precedent is established, it'll be much easier to go after other monopolists. And Epic fails, at least they've only spent money fighting one legal battle.
Set a precident. (Score:2)
I think Epic is attempting to set a precedent. After they have done so then they can go after the video game makers.
Fact is, people who make 'hardware' SHOULD NOT be allowed to control what software runs on it ! People who make an operating system SHOULD NOT be in control of what can run on it either. That is exactly how MS ( sort of) lost it's anti-trust suit.
Why do I say should not ? The purpose of law is supposed to server the greater good. So law has to allow a certain room for profit otherwise th
if you want to get upset about markup (Score:2)
Then take issue with the entire industry of micro transaction/freemium gaming.
No surprise (hypocrites) (Score:5, Informative)
Epic Games and more importantly Tim Sweeney are the biggest hypocrites in the industry. They complain about openness and yet introduce the most closed feature of consoles (3rd party paid exclusives) to the PC in order to prop up their incredibly sub par store. All the while they claim to be the good guys by stating they are only serving to bring down the cost of a far more capable and feature rich service (who can forget Epic releasing Tetris Effect with Steam VR binaries because they don't offer that feature in their crappy store themselves)
But as to why they ignore consoles, that could have to do with Sony's $250million stake in Epic Games: https://www.theverge.com/2020/... [theverge.com]
Fuck Epic. They are the worst thing to happen to gaming in a long time. It's a shame that make a really good video game engine since that makes it a bit too difficult to boycott them completely.
Sony owns a stake in Epic Games (Score:2)
Not much to say other than, $250 million is a small price to pay to buy out a hypocrite https://www.theverge.com/2020/... [theverge.com]
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as fly by night companies crapflooded the market with shovelware and the VCS ended up drowning in a river of shit
For those that didn't thousands of shady devs took a big nasty shit all over Steam with asset flips and broken garbage and knock offs so it became like trying to wade through a cesspool to find anything good.
Have you seen some of the cheap indies on the Nintendo E-shop and PSN lately? Quick and dirty mobile ports, knock offs, broken garbage and so forth.
https://www.nintendo.com/games... [nintendo.com]
Or the Skylight Freerange games on PSN.
Did Sony and Nintendo think bad press from crappy indies is better than bad press from some Bob Pelloni-clone having a meltdown and blaming them because they wouldn't publish his game?
So while I'm a firm believer that console companies should have to allow a way to unlock a console for non console uses (such as Linux)
Totally agree, but when they do some "software freedom" spouting guy tries to figure out how to use the abi
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Too much of a barrier. If the customer has to spend ten minutes working through the sideloading procedure, or ten seconds purchasing a rival app on the store, then the sideloaded app is commercially doomed.
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It doesn't take 10 minutes to link a precompiled library-file with a few dozen bytes of source code. Hell, you could even make a script to automate the whole thing.
I don't contest that it's a higher barrier... heck, the requirement that the person have a mac to run xcode on probably being the most severe, but the point of the idea was to just bypass the app store. Bearing in mind you *ALSO* need to have a Mac to run software that was written only for the Mac anyways, and the Mac is certainly a successf
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the requirement of owning a Macintosh computer cannot be considered such an unattainable barrier of entry as to render any possible commercial viability void
Hi, in order to run our shitty software on your overpriced computing device you'll need to buy another overpriced computer that you don't actually need otherwise.
No.
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I was assuming that the target audience in such a case would have access to a Mac on which to run xcode.
While obviously there are far more windows computers than Macintosh computers, assuming that software which requires that one own a macintosh to use it cannot possibly be successful suggests that no Mac-only software could ever be successful.
Which is not true.
Re:It is possible to side-load on iOS (Score:5, Insightful)
(cue to "easy, just recompile your kernel" Linux joke)
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For 7 days.
Re: It is possible to side-load on iOS (Score:5, Informative)
Re: It is possible to side-load on iOS (Score:2)
You think apple goes through the source code before approving the app? Hint: they don't.
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There might be an argument made that sideloading is technically possible, so the policy restrictions are anticompetitive. I suspect that's where they'll take the argument, in order to show that Apple and Google would naturally allow competition if not for artificially created barriers.
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No? Just my own apps?
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Re: It is possible to side-load on iOS (Score:2)
Sideloading on Android is dead simple, just download the APK with your browser, open it, Android asks if you want to allow your browser to be able to install other apps (including a disclaimer) and you just give it permission.
You don't need to create some special account, you don't need to sign any code, the apps can have full functionality, the apps don't magically disappear after 7 days, the only limit on the number of them is your storage capacity, you don't have to pay anybody, and you don't need to own
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You should do more research on how Android's sideloading works before making statements about how secure it is. It's bad enough that you compared it to iOS without knowing anything about how to actually sideload an app on Android.
Also I don't know (or care) where you're rumors come from, but I really doubt Apple is at all interested in opening it up when you consider that all they've ever worked towards locking it down further, and that they've not only tried to file DMCA claims against jailbreaking softwar
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Agreed.
You will often see the underdog talking about Open Platforms, until it has became a major player then they close things down.
In the early 2000's OS X was built off of BSD and had a BSD Open Source version of the OS available to the public. As Apple grew they closed things down slowly and steadily where it had became more locked down than its competitors were at the time.
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In the early 2000's OS X was built off of BSD and had a BSD Open Source version of the OS available to the public. As Apple grew they closed things down slowly and steadily where it had became more locked down than its competitors were at the time.
Darwin [wikipedia.org] is still readily available [github.com] and updated seemingly regularly. iOS has never been opened up like this to my knowledge (wouldn't mind finding out I'm wrong).
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Fortnite had something like 23 million Android users within a month of its Android "release". It is very popular.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view... [gamasutra.com]
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Great, what flavor of GL do they plan to use, AMD or Nvidia?
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There is actually a way a company like Sony could do game console distribution on Linux. You do it with a closed source advanced performance video card. It provides normal reasonable quality video access to that card but if you use licensed software it provides access to the higher performance aspects of the video card which are provided free for that access, with the base video card you purchase for your Linux, Windows, Apple, Android box or even a complete Sony box with access to a Sony Linux OS to acces
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Then release the epic game store and all their games on the biggest open platform of all, Linux.
Or maybe just not buy a developer who offers games on Steam including Linux only turn the game into an Epic Store exclusive and then discontinue the Linux version giving everyone who bought it the middle finger like they did with Rocket League.
Re: They want an open platform? (Score:2)
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Re: They want an open platform? (Score:2)
Works on mine. Didn't even do anything special to make it work. Good to go out of the box.
It might depend on your laptop vendor and if they put the right things in UEFI/BIOS, ME, etc and not hacking in work arounds in their Win10 drivers/bloatware.
I think 5 or 10 years ago we couldn't say this worked reliability on the Linux side. But that's a long time ago in the PC world.
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Doesn't work right on mine, HP 14-dk1022wm. I've tried three different kernels now (minor versions that is, not tiny ones) and it still doesn't work right. SOMETIMES, but not every time, it refuses to come back from sleep correctly. I get the desktop image and a mouse pointer which is responsive (hardware cursor, I guess) and that's it. Ctrl-Alt-Fx doesn't switch to a text console, either. I haven't configured the magic SysRq key so I haven't tried that yet.
That this is still a problem in 2020 is sad.
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Glad it worked for you. Laptop lid-closing sleep (among many other ACPI functions) has never worked reliably for me in the 22 or so years I've been a Linux user. Even when I worked for IBM 12ish years ago running IBM's own internal Linux distro on my work laptop, lid-closing sleep only worked like 60% of the time. Nothing worse than thinking your laptop is asleep as you put it in your bag before lunch, only to pull a 900 degree laptop with a dead battery out of your bag at your next meeting. Reminds me of t
RTFM (Score:2)
https://packages.debian.org/si... [debian.org]
Yes it does. Seriously learn to Google.
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Everything works, out of the box, with a current Dell laptop from any of their major lines, with Ubuntu. (Ubuntu Mate here)
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I have three laptops running Linux, including a freaking Microsoft Surface 3, and sleep/hibernation works just peachy on all of them.
Valve did. It works. (Score:2)
Meanwhile, Valve *IS* supporting Linux.
Steam actually works.
And Valve is even having devs on their payroll working to make Wine/Proton better to open even more apps to the platform.
Epic is just not bothering.
---
Yes, I know you can probably list a few games in your steam collection that still doesn't work reliably on linux+steam+proton.
But again, as I've said, there are devs on a payroll whose task is exactly handling that.
Eventually, this list of non working will shrink and disappear.
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Yeah, I'm really sure that sleep mode on laptops is what is stopping Epic from supporting Linux. /s
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The purchase direct, 100% of savings goes to the consumer.
I think you're in for a rough surprise if you expect Fortnite in-game transactions to go down in price down the line.
Hint: Epic is not going through the trouble for you.
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Epic dropped in-game v-buck prices by 20% the same time they made the announcement.
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Of course they did, it was means to an end: the expectation was for Apple to kick Fortnite out out of the Apple Store. They had a lawsuit, a parody video, a statement and a media campaign all ready to go.
Epic's goal was not to give users a discount here.
PUBG (Score:2)
Except Epic is not the only ones complaining Spotify, Netflix, Microsoft are starting to make noises and People are listening. Many different groups are starting to make noises.