Apple Kicks Fortnite Out of App Store for Challenging Payment Rules (cnbc.com) 126
Fortnite, the social shooter made by Epic Games, has been removed from the Apple App Store, the only way to install software on iPhones. From a report: CNBC searched on the App Store on Thursday and did not find the game. It was previously available for download earlier in the day. App Store promotions about the game brought up a message that it "cannot connect to App Store." On Thursday, Epic Games challenged not only Apple but Google by introducing a new way to buy digital goods like character outfits and weapons at a discount. Users who paid Epic Games directly would receive a 20% discount, versus users who paid through Apple's App Store or Google Play, who would pay a higher amount. This practice is banned by both Apple's App Store and Google's Play Store. In a statement, Apple said: Today, Epic Games took the unfortunate step of violating the App Store guidelines that are applied equally to every developer and designed to keep the store safe for our users. As a result their Fortnite app has been removed from the store. Epic enabled a feature in its app which was not reviewed or approved by Apple, and they did so with the express intent of violating the App Store guidelines regarding in-app payments that apply to every developer who sells digital goods and services.
Epic has had apps on the App Store for a decade, and have benefited from the App Store ecosystem -- including its tools, testing, and distribution that Apple provides to all developers. Epic agreed to the App Store terms and guidelines freely and we're glad they've built such a successful business on the App Store. The fact that thheir business interests now lead them to push for a spcial treatment does not change the fact that these guidelines create a level playing field for all developers and make the store safe for all users. We will make every effort to work with Epic to resolve these violations so they can return Fortnite to the App Store.
Epic has had apps on the App Store for a decade, and have benefited from the App Store ecosystem -- including its tools, testing, and distribution that Apple provides to all developers. Epic agreed to the App Store terms and guidelines freely and we're glad they've built such a successful business on the App Store. The fact that thheir business interests now lead them to push for a spcial treatment does not change the fact that these guidelines create a level playing field for all developers and make the store safe for all users. We will make every effort to work with Epic to resolve these violations so they can return Fortnite to the App Store.
Oh (Score:5, Funny)
no they didn't!
So they still lose 30%, so or so. (Score:1)
There's the 20% reduction in cash income. Then there's the cost of administrating taking in direct payments, which is WAAAAY MORE than merely hooking up an Optiplex with a freeware cash register app.
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However, the overhead in processing payments from Apple device users is marginal, because Epic already process payments from users of other platforms.
Hell, I could go from zero payment processing capability to fully staffed fraud resistant legal payments taking in almost no time at all, and if I charged 5% the only reason I wouldn't get rich is that potential customers wouldn't consider me value for money.
Bye, Felicia. (Score:1)
Bye, Felicia.
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It would appear that Murray Rothbard forgot about Apple
BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popcorn (Score:4, Interesting)
This will end in sadness for apple fortnite players, no matter who ends up doing what.
The only winners will be the lawyers for Fortnite and Apple. (as usual)
Re:BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popcorn (Score:5, Interesting)
Fortnite is betting that it's players will just switch to Android, either on their main device or buy a second device.
It is so popular that it is possible.
Fortnite is not even on the Google Play store, so Google's rules are not relevant. It's a sideload.
Re: BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popcor (Score:2)
Re: BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popcor (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a pretty severe difference though in the barrier to sideload versus jailbreak.
If everything goes according to Apple's plan, a device in theory would never be possibly jailbreaked, and the only mechanism for sideload is a severe burden (the mechanism to develop apps on a device)
In Android, it's just a permission with scary text around it to dissuade people, but ultimately allow if they wanted.
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I don't think you need to jailbreak iOS to side load apps.
Apple developer (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed, you can also register as an Apple Developer, install the SDK (Xcode) on a Mac and then upload a test build into your phone in debug mode.
The procedure is designed to enable App developers and testers to test in-house their products before deploying to the App store.
It's absolutely not designed with the usual "Playschool" user friednliness of the rest of the Apple ecosystem, it's designed to be useful to coding geeks.
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And reupload it to the device at least every 7 days, because that's how long the cert lasts unless you're a paid developer.
Oh, and any company distributing an app in this way would be violating the terms of service for the iOS SDK, unless they have changed very recently.
Re: BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popco (Score:3)
Yeah, it makes you wonder how developers test their software. They surely donâ(TM)t use the App Store! ;)
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With the simulator and with their own device(s). It wouldn't make any sense to use an App store. That would be like putting some software you are working on up on Steam for each test.
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Fortnite is betting that it's players will just switch to Android, either on their main device or buy a second device.
Wrong, they tried the same thing on their Android version, and Google did the exact same thing as Apple and pulled the app from Google Play store.
https://www.androidpolice.com/... [androidpolice.com]
And Epic has sued Google as well. Of course this doesn't fit the anti-Apple narrative someone is pushing, as every one of the Slashdot stories covering this only mentions Apple when Google is doing the exact same thing.
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Yeah, except with Android, all you have to do is side load it. A process about as easy as going to Partha's Place and downloading his GIMP build and installing it on a Windows 10 machine.
Good luck with that on an iPhone.
Sam
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You do not need the Google Play store to install Fortnite on Android, and never have. Its available via multiple channels including Samsung's store, Epic's website, and Epic's game store.
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Winners might also include tablet and phone vendors. A lot of people have fucked themselves by buying iOS devices. I know several people in my office who still have iPhones. If any of them are really attached to their favorite games, applications or capabilities, but lose the ability to run them on their old hardware, they might upgrade.
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This will end in sadness for apple fortnite players, no matter who ends up doing what.
The only winners will be the lawyers for Fortnite and Apple. (as usual)
Not to mention, all the executives at all of the involved corporations; all of whom are making out like bandits. These corporations are evil and corrupt. They need to steal, exploit and cheat in order to generate the billions the upper class requires to satisfy their insatiable addiction to power.
Fortnite is an evil and abusive game that relies on psychology to entice consumers to spend epic amounts on useless items. Apple uses a monopolistic and parasitic environment in order to cheat developers and custom
Re:BRB I gotta go to the store to buy some popcorn (Score:5, Funny)
The only winners will be the lawyers for Fortnite and Apple. (as usual)
In a counter lawsuit, Apple is suing Fortnite for paying their lawyers directly, and not through the Apple App Store.
. . . and in a counter-counter lawsuit, the Fornite lawyers are suing the Apple lawyers for interfering with their payment.
. . . and in a counter-counter-counter lawsuit . . .
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OTOH, Fortnite wants the revenue and wants kids to buy stuff. Apple is making this harder.
This i
Boon to humanity? (Score:4, Funny)
With all of the millions of kid-hours saved by forcefully removing Fortnite from Apple mobile devices, will the average GPA of kids around the globe rise substantially as a result?
Or will kids around the world instead learn the concept of the "burner phone" as they smuggle in Android devices to the house that can play Fortnite...
Either way popcorn all around!
Re:Boon to humanity? (Score:4, Informative)
Removing the app from the store doesn't prevent existing users from running it. It just prevents the author from updating the app, and prevents new users from downloading it.
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Removing the app from the store doesn't prevent existing users from running it. It just prevents the author from updating the app, and prevents new users from downloading it.
Well it does also potentially affect any user who switches phones or needs to reset their phone. I saw a figure of 80 million Fornite active users in late 2018, so if half of them are Apple users and the average user does a reset for either reason once every 18 months then you have 75,000 users every day not being able to log into Fortnite. That doesn't even count any new players.
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The revenue numbers I've seen suggest that only a single-digit percentage of revenue comes through Apple, and a single-digit percentage comes from direct sales (presumably Windows users + Android users). The rest comes from gaming consoles. So I doubt that anywhere near half of the game's users are on iOS. 5% seems more likely.
Assuming those numbers are true (and current), then having Fortnite on iOS at all should be considered a favor to Apple, giving credence to iOS being a real gaming platform; Fortn
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The revenue numbers I've seen suggest that only a single-digit percentage of revenue comes through Apple, and a single-digit percentage comes from direct sales (presumably Windows users + Android users). The rest comes from gaming consoles. So I doubt that anywhere near half of the game's users are on iOS. 5% seems more likely.
Ha, shows you how little I know about Fortnite. I figured it was a mobile only game. Man I am getting old and out of touch.
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Don't worry. I made the same assumption until I looked it up out of curiosity. :-)
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... They'll have to go get a cheap Android device, and then after finding it easier to use one phone rather than two, get rid of the iPhone.
Better still,for the price of your iPhone, get a reasonably expensive Android , save a bit of cash and end up with a better phone.
I'm guessing Apple wants to go back to the days of having 3% marketshares.
Heading that way across the world anyway.
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Yeah, maybe they'll go to school instead [npr.org] ... whoops.
Re:Boon to humanity? (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe they'll spend those kid-hours complaining to Apple. I mean, it's not like they're energetic and motivated [dilbert.com] or anything at that age.
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My 12 and 14 year old and their friends stopped playing fortnite 6 months ago. Plus most kids would be on android as Apple is super expensive for a kid.
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Oh, I see plenty of children using hand-me-down iOS devices. usually with broken screens and a button missing here or there.
Ha ha, previously on Slashdot... (Score:2)
Ha ha, previously on Slashdot: "Fortnite is Daring Apple To Shutter Its Game on iPhones"
Bold move, how is that workin' out for ya?
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Ha ha, previously on Slashdot: "Fortnite is Daring Apple To Shutter Its Game on iPhones"
Bold move, how is that workin' out for ya?
Yeah, that wasn't much a standoff. Apparently Apple can do without them
Re:Ha ha, previously on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not Tim Sweeney but my guess is they weren't really expecting anything different. I don't think the goal was to make Apple blink. I think the goal was to give European regulators ammunition in their anti-trust investigations. In Europe at least the regulators are rarely happy with vendors making decisions for their customers. These are the people that told Microsoft they had to let people choose a web browser when installing Windows after all.
Epic may be the one laughing in the long run if the EU decides Apple cant be trusted with controlling their own app marketplace. We'll see.
Re:Ha ha, previously on Slashdot... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, this falls under the strategy of forcing your opponent to make a fatal mistake, whereupon you can turn around and crucify them in court.
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Hm, surely not...
https://apple.slashdot.org/sto... [slashdot.org]
Oh, wait :)
Re:Ha ha, previously on Slashdot... (Score:4, Insightful)
Epic may be the one laughing in the long run if the EU decides Apple cant be trusted with controlling their own app marketplace. We'll see.
I seem to remember there was some gaming company out there that was signing exclusive distribution contracts with game developers in order to get people to use their shitty version of Steam.
I don't think it's a good idea for Epic to encourage the EU to look more closely at them.
Apple way (Score:2)
Epic may be the one laughing in the long run if the EU decides Apple cant be trusted with controlling their own app marketplace. We'll see.
Yup, you can bet that the EU will try to strong-arm Apple into providing a special unloackable side-loading option, because the current monopoly of the App store isn't acceptable. ...But you can also bet that Apple will drag their feet into implementing a monstrosity next to which the current "procedure to sideload test-build as a registered Apple developper" will seem a
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They might do something even better, like change the colour of iMessage bubbles for messages sent using iDevices containing side-loaded software. This, together with an astroturf campaign about the risks of side-loading would be an effective way to herd the wayward sheep back into the flock.
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Once the barn door is open even a crack though, epic/steam/etc can automate the whole process including providing their own app stores on the platform.
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Apple is one of the largest companies on the planet. This is no David versus Goliath, it's David versus Zeus.
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Reminds me of that headline:
"what are you gonna do, stab me?" -quote from man stabbed
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Bold move, how is that workin' out for ya?
Pretty well, I'd imagine, as long as they don't need to update the app in the future. Their users can still buy tokens, their users are happy because they're paying less money for those tokens, and because it's an established game, they probably weren't picking up that many new users anyway, so the iOS App Store was mostly pure overhead.
In fact, arguably, the iOS App Store always was pure overhead for Fortnite. The fact that they had absolutely crazy download and install numbers on Android without being
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Fair enough. I didn't check the system requirements. Wow, that requires a serious GPU on Android. So how in the world does this game work usably on the GPU in the iPhone 6s, but not the significantly newer (and presumably faster) GPU from the same manufacturer that's inside a $100 Lenovo Tab M8?
Didn’t I just read that Epic Games dared App (Score:2)
And consumers lose (Score:2)
Re:And consumers lose (Score:4)
Yes. I've had to deal with the aftermath of dodgy android apps.
There are some places where I want a walled-garden, and other places where I don't. Fortunately, different options are available on different platforms.
Re:And consumers lose (Score:4, Insightful)
On Apple devices, you have no choice.
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Apple actually demands your source and actually scans it. Google doesn't. Google also lets apps in their store have more places where they download and run a script, where Apple does not.
Apple's store is way more secure, but admittedly there's a cost in that you can't just install anything you like. I would hate it on my PC, but I'm willing to be walled in on my phone.
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Run those dodgy apps you downloaded off some random apk-hosting site through virustotal.com before you install them.
The Bear got Poked (Score:2)
What did they expect?
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If the next Slashdot article is any indication, they were expecting to be kicked out and had a lawsuit ready to go. They got exactly what they expected.
EU antitrust (Score:2)
They expected Apple to bring them the perfect agrument to launch an EU investigation into the monopoly and extreme control that Apple has on what runs on you own device that you've bought.
And unsurprizingly, Apple brought rigth on cue on a silver plate.
YES! (Score:2)
As I said, I'm no fan of Apple, but fuck Tim Sweeney and his overly entitled millions that makes him think he can screw whomever he wants.
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Can't decide who to support (Score:1)
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If Epic ends up being the crowbar that breaks open the app store monopoly - and yes, it *is* a monopoly in the iOS world, no doubt about that - I'd say he managed to do something *good*. It might lead to anxiety among the true believers who now get to decide whether to stay in the flock or wander to that field over yonder beonyd the walls, with greener grass and a better views and lots of interesting new people after which the rest of the flock will shun them for the apostate he is but so be it. Choice is a
Sideloading? (Score:2)
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Literally anyone can side load an app on an iPhone. You can do it from source code in Xcode, or using a developer build via Xcode or via TestFlight. For developers this covers every need.
However, Apple doesn't allow this as a distribution mechanism to a broad audience, and if they ban a developer account then the builds generated by it will not install or run.
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Literally anyone can side load an app on an iPhone.
I find it amusing that you follow this statement with reasons why only a small segment of people can ever sideload an app on an iPhone, and end with reasons why no one can sideload an app on an iPhone.
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Literally anyone can side load an app on an iPhone. You can do it from source code in Xcode, or using a developer build via Xcode or via TestFlight. For developers this covers every need.
However, Apple doesn't allow this as a distribution mechanism to a broad audience, and if they ban a developer account then the builds generated by it will not install or run.
It also violates the iOS SDK Terms of Service, so Apple could potentially decide to make an example out of anyone trying to do that, even beyond banning their account.
Also, an app side-loaded has to be re-side-loaded every 7 days unless the person doing the side-loading is a paid developer program member. The entire system is very deliberately designed to prevent side-loading-based distribution from being practical.
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You are allowed to side load your own apps to your phone. For a company with an Enterprise license that applies; however, that does not mean you can side load any app to any phone. So unless Epic games wants to take the step of making every consumer as a developer, it would be hard to get around this.
Enterprise license only allows distribution within your own company. As Facebook and Google found out, Enterprise licenses can and will be revoked if you install your apps elsewhere.
Typing stutter? (Score:2)
The fact that thheir business interests...Â
There's been so much Apple news on /. that it's now causing the editors to develop a keyboard stutter.
More companies should do the same. (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is doing nothing but rent seeking on the app store. They don't deserve anywhere near their cut for what little they provide.
Re: More companies should do the same. (Score:2, Insightful)
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The funny thing is you believe that.
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Largely true, really it should be on a sliding scale. The most onerous thing Apple does is the 30% cut of IAP, that's impossible to justify no matter how you frame it. Apple wants to make people believe that the whole thing is a variable cost, when it's maybe 5% variable and a few pennies fixed cost per transaction. I wouldn't be surprise to see more pricing variation on the AppStore(s) once the regulators start threatening government oversight. Ideally, there should be "fee" for hosting the app, then some
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Largely true, really it should be on a sliding scale. The most onerous thing Apple does is the 30% cut of IAP, that's impossible to justify no matter how you frame it.
Challenge accepted!
Without the same charge for In App Purchases (IAPs) all I would have to do is put a free app on the store, then require an IAP to unlock (a decent feature set of) it and I bypass the 30% charge. Yet, I would have gotten all the benefits of Apples ecosystem, which are significant.
But I am sure you are saying, "No one would do that!" Let's consider Fortnite, its initial cost is $0. All of its revenue, comes from IAPs. So how does Apple get compensated for the massive amount of tools a
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They don't deserve anywhere near their cut for what little they provide.
Access to 10% of the global smartphone market which is otherwise completely locked away?
I get what you're saying, the App store doesn't add "features" to developers, but let's not pretend that they don't provide a userbase as their single biggest feature.
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Yes, but now Epic is suing Apple. In US court. Where the iPhone almost half the market.
United they (may) stand; divided they will fall (Score:2)
The only way to change Apple's behaviour would be if the top few hundred developers stopped developing for Apple and concentrated only on Android until Apple relents. While it's true that the app store benefits developers, it's also true that the developers benefit Apple and there's a huge power imbalance.
Will it happen? Doubtful.
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You are forgetting a pretty important part of the equation— the users/consumers. I might not speak for every Apple owner, but I want a level of assurance that the app is on the up-and-up, and I don’t really like storing my payment data with anyone that I can avoid.
I actually pay for most of the apps I use, although precious few are actually worth it to me. With maybe two exceptions in the apps I have installed (and use), the apps I have are largely fungible; if one were do go a substitution wo
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Well, if you don't like storing payment data with anyone you can avoid, you can use the Apple payment system. It will cost more, but you're getting a service for it.
The point is people should have a choice, and vendors shouldn't be expected to subsidize Apple or compete on an uneven playing field.
Anyway, if you like Apple devices, then by all means use them. But don't blame developers if they abandon the platform.
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Turns out Google doesn't like their shit either.
Notice from Apple (Score:2)
We do what we want. We have a monopoly. We want our cut of everything that uses an iphone despite us providing nothing for that cut.
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Because Epic is not at all a monopolist.
Not a monopoly. (Score:2)
Words continue to lose all meaning. 1984 shouldn't be a instruction manual.
Apple is monopolizing their platform like EVERY corp tries to do but Apple is not even trying to monopolize the smart phone marketplace because like they've always done, they go for the mid/top tiers and ignore the massive low end / cheapo market.
Game consoles, printers, etc. all strongly control the accessory markets that they work to create and is a fundamental part of their business plan. You can get hacked ink, years later a hac
Comment removed (Score:3)
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The question is whether Apple is big enough to have a distorting effect on the market. If yes, then they don't get to arbitrarily set the rules. Epic clearly want to price that is the case.
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This escalated... (Score:2)
quickly. :)
I don't think they'll win this one (Score:2)
Regardless of whether you think 30% is exorbitant rent-seeking or not (I do), Apple has a platform and they can set rules. I don't see Steam on XBox, or Epic's store on PlayStation. I'm of the opinion that if you have a platform, you can make it as open or restrictive as you like, and people can decide if they like that or not. Epic does not have to be on iOS. People can switch to another platform to play Fortnite. That's a valid market choice.
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Regardless of whether you think 30% is exorbitant rent-seeking or not (I do), Apple has a platform and they can set rules. I don't see Steam on XBox, or Epic's store on PlayStation. I'm of the opinion that if you have a platform, you can make it as open or restrictive as you like, and people can decide if they like that or not. Epic does not have to be on iOS. People can switch to another platform to play Fortnite. That's a valid market choice.
AFAIK, all the console gaming platforms have similar rules. This almost certainly isn't about Apple (whose users provide only a single-digit percentage of Fortnite's revenue). No, this is about trying to get those sorts of rules overturned by a court on a platform that they don't really care about, so that they can use that decision as leverage against the gaming console manufacturers (whose users provide somewhere around 80% of their revenue).
Maybe I'm being cynical, but at this point, I rather suspect t
30% is reasonable HOWEVER (Score:2)
Apple needs to lose this for the good of all. SALE OF 1 PRODUCT does not allow them right to monopolize the relationship with the customer for all future sales.
As far as retail stores Apple isn't bad-- 30% isn't rent seeking. Some retail stores actually do seek rent for simply carrying your product at all and some have to be paid for good placement position on the shelves or dedicated sales staff, special training, certification, etc.
If you put your website on your product and then sell accessories the orig
Children gambling is OK with Apple but ... (Score:2)
So Apple is OK with enabling children to gamble, but impact their revenue and they'll come down hard on you.
Apple not worried
Kids are very, very fickle and Epic about to learn (Score:2)
I'll tell you what will happen, the more fuss Epic make about their cash-cow the less people will care about it and slowly abandon it, it'll be this years MySpace. Pound-to-penny that in 18 months time Epic will sell the Fortnite franchise off at a loss.
Having a teenager about to turn 18 myself, I tell you for a fact that kids have an app attention span of about 18-24 months tops. No generation wants to be seen to use something old that the previous generation used, all the little 8-10 year olds that Epic a
Re:"Challenging payment rules" (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah. This is basically the corporate version of civil disobedience. This is exactly what they wanted - force Apple to act. Now they can go to court and challenge Apple's position. Note that they have already filed the lawsuit, so this action by Apple certainly was not unexpected. Apple acted exactly as Epic knew they would.
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If they broke it in protest (and with a plan for an antitrust action) that the contract has an illegal provision, why would you want to replace the board?
Clearly, Epic has their developers and players first in mind. Yes, it hurts a bit up front, but if they succeed, they just earned their developers a massive amount of money, and... (though it never seems to happen) they could even sell games at a small discount.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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You're funny.
It's part of the job description for a rogue sock puppet bent on Slashdomination and the establishment of a 1,000,000,000 nanosecond empire.
Also, the food is lousy, and the pay sucks, but there's free coffee.
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Clearly, Epic has their developers and players first in mind.
You're funny.
-jcr
yup, the developers and players will benefit significantly, but it is obvious what Epic have in mind is their profit margins. Regardless that is still good for the users and developers in this case.
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Hardly a stupid stunt. having a 30% cut taken out of your income is a massive cost for them, if they can challenge this and win both the users and EPIC are financially better off.
That's 30% of 10%. What % of Fortnite players use iThings? This is a global question. I don't care that Apple has a 50% marketshare amongst the 4.5% of humanity that lives in the USA. Apple is not a big player on Earth, Just in the USA in particular and less so in Canada, the UK and a very small number of other countries and it is dropping.