Apple Changes Crimea Map To Meet Russian Demands (bbc.com) 112
ardmhacha writes: Apple has complied with Russian demands to show the annexed Crimean peninsula as part of Russian territory on its apps. Russian forces annexed Crimea from Ukraine in March 2014, drawing international condemnation. The region, which has a Russian-speaking majority, is now shown as Russian territory on Apple Maps and its Weather app, when viewed from Russia. But the apps do not show it as part of any country when viewed elsewhere. The State Duma, the Russian parliament's lower house, said in a statement: "Crimea and Sevastopol now appear on Apple devices as Russian territory." Russia treats the naval port city of Sevastopol as a separate region. The BBC tested several iPhones in Moscow and it appears the change affects devices set up to use the Russian edition of Apple's App Store. Apple had been in talks with Russia for several months over what the State Duma described as "inaccuracy" in the way Crimea was labelled. Further reading: Apple Has No Backbone.
Surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
If western nations didn't do anything when Russia invaded Crimea beyond some minor face saving sanctions, why would we expect anything different from companies headquartered in those nations?
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Well 'nothing', there's been all kinds of economical sanctions for years over this. What else would you want to do, a full scale conventional war with nuclear powers?
Orwellian and Brazilian (Score:4, Insightful)
Redefine words and redefine names of countries till words have no meaning. It's uncanny how One of the most unlikely preposterous (satire) things in orwells 1984 is actually true now. "enhanced interogation" is right out of Brazil. Next up you pay for your own torture costs.
As for asking companies to always intervene in the disputes between nations is very "woke" nonsense. This is a job for governments because companies hopefully don't ever have leverage against governments (looking at you United Fruit and Nestle).
Now it's commendable for companies to try.
It's also okay to boycott companies if you think they are doing something reprhensible. IBM didn't have to sell tabulators to the Nazis. Texaco didn't have to evade embargo in selling Nazi's oil. That can bear fruit. Look at what happened with investment in South Aftrica during Aparteid. Social pressure on companies.
But it's unfair to always ask for this. CHoose wisely and don't ask companies to ruin themselves. Just ask them to make choices differently.
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Yeah, there's like, three or four slashdotters.
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There was a war there in the middle of the 19th century, France and Britain fought on the side of Turkey. You may have heard of the charge of the light brigade.
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Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine when they joined the CCCP. So they took it back when Ukraine left. No surprise.
Horseshit. The Ukraine has always been seen as just a bunch of land for peasants to farm. Prior to Stalin and even under Lenin when the land was turned into so called collectives, things were no different. The only difference between the communists and the Russian oligarchs before them was the peasants were much less likely to be starved into submission by the oligarchs. Stalin fixed all that and starved the peasants on the land by taking the production of food away from them and taking the labour force away from the land. That is why the Ukrainian people in general hate the fucking Russians.
Putin knows that he is going to need the Ukraine if he wants to feed the rest of Russia therefore it is inevitable that he will be sending tanks into Kiev as soon as the political climate in the US is such that no one there will have the balls to say anything about it and the UN will just issue some statement of discontent. Putin has successfully castrated the West and guess what we still think that we won the cold war. It ain't over as the tanks move into Kiev just cry as all there will be left is tears for the Ukrainian people and their hopes for a future free from tyrants and corrupt Russian oligarchs!
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"Putin knows that he is going to need the Ukraine if he wants to feed the rest of Russia "
What? Site some data here buddy. If anything, the future is looking rosy for Russia's food supply. Global warming will open up an awful lot of land for agriculture there,
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"Putin knows that he is going to need the Ukraine if he wants to feed the rest of Russia "
What? Site some data here buddy. If anything, the future is looking rosy for Russia's food supply. Global warming will open up an awful lot of land for agriculture there,
You flippin' idiot! Do you seriously think that thawing the permafrost of Siberia is going to increase food productivity? How do you morons even get to believe this bullshit. Just have a look at the Sea of Azov then get back to me about how great Russian agricultural practice and science has been. The Ukraine is the bread basket as it has always been. Scorched earth policy has always been how the Russians have defended their country all the way back to Napoleon. The people of the Ukraine have always been th
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"You flippin' idiot! Do you seriously think that thawing the permafrost of Siberia is going to increase food productivity?"
I do. Corn, wheat, potatoes; they can all be planted in poor soil.
Furthermore, you've failed to provide for my data request and decided to be an insulting twit instead. You then go on about the distinctiveness of the Ukrainians and how they deserve to be free of Russian domination when I have said literally nothing in support of Russia's moves against Ukraine. I in fact find them thorou
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Putin has successfully castrated the West and guess what we still think that we won the cold war.
Russia managed to claw back one tiny bit of one former Soviet state. Maybe Putin is king of his own fiefdom, but the borders of the "Cold War II" is about 2000 km east of where the Iron Curtain ran straight through Germany. Yes, he's clearly stopped any progress of Russia becoming a western liberal democracy but on a global scale they've gone from superpower to barely in the top 10. Of genuine threats to world peace I really only see China and militant Islam. Putin maybe have the resources to send tanks to
Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:4, Informative)
Putin knows that he is going to need the Ukraine if he wants to feed the rest of Russia
I guess you didn't get the memo that shows Russia is now the biggest exporter of grain. Russian agricultural and livestock industry were on an upswing trajectory once Russia introduced counter-sanctions in 2014, banning much of agricultural, meat, and fish imports from countries that raised sanctions on against Russia. To tell the truth, I am surprised Russia didn't protect its agricultural sector earlier. Before 2014, Russia was probably the only big country that was wide open to agricultural imports. In much of the rest of the world, esp in EU and North America, agricultural trade has always been highly protectionist and highly politicized.
Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine when they joined the CCCP. So they took it back when Ukraine left. No surprise.
Crimea was put under Ukranian administration in 1958, the CCCP dissolved in 1991. Everything from that time collaborates that they became an independent, sovereign country and that Russia made no claim on Crimea back then. It's only 23 years later as Ukraine wants to take the country in a different political direction that Russia annexed it. No doubt that was a huge blunder on Russia's side, but to act like they got any right to rewrite the borders decades later is silly. Every other state along the Russian border should fear that they become too "Unrussian"or Putin's vacationing soldiers will go on holiday again. With their guns, tanks and anti-air missiles of course.
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That's why Russia had to invade Crimea right? Because it's always been Russian?
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There was even an "official" vote over it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
". Official results reported about 95.5% of participating voters in Crimea (turnout was 83%) were in favour of seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia.[54][173] The results of referendum were questioned;[174] another report by Evgeny Bobrov, a member of the Russian President's Human Rights Council, suggested the official
results were inflated and only 15% to 30% of Crimeans eligible to vote actually voted for the Russian option."
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And a majority of the American south wanted to succeed from the union.
You're own Wikipedia link states that Russia has violated treaties it signed by invading Crimea. That link does more damage to Russia's cause than supports.
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Apple prostituting themselves to despots everywhere for dollars/rubles/yuan? Business as usual.
That seems to be going around... The Apple team stayed at the Trump Towers, Istanbul [wikipedia.org] in Turkey while working this out -- as construction on the Trump Tower, Moscow [wikipedia.org] hasn't started yet. It was quite there since the US pulled it's troops out of Syria as all the Turkish troops where off killing Kurds.
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How is acknowledging the reality of the situation "prostituting?" I bet they didn't even need to get paid for this. Did you read otherwise, somewhere?
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I bet they didn't even need to get paid for this.
Of course they do. They can continue to sell iPhones in Russia.
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Apple prostituting themselves to despots everywhere for dollars/rubles/yuan? Business as usual.
Russia invaded and claimed it. Nobody said anything. Why would you possibly think it's up to Apple to police the world, especially if Apple's country of origin did and said nothing to stop the annexation?
If you are looking to corporations for your morals, you are doing it wrong. You see, there's this guy. You probably know his name, so I won't mention it here. It's his job to decide the US's reaction to these events. If you have a problem with how this went down, take it up with him. Or, yell into the void
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Russia invaded and claimed it. Nobody said anything.
Yes they did.
Why would you possibly think it's up to Apple to police the world,
If Apple wants to support Russia to the detriment of the west that is their right. It is our right to judge them accordingly.
especially if Apple's country of origin did and said nothing to stop the annexation?
Wrong.
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There is one limitation. Apple only caters to the big, powerful despots in countries with lots of people who buy iPhones. Smaller countries like Ukraine just don't buy enough of them to matter.
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Ferengi Capitalism.
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I think they are merely accurately reflecting the current state of affairs. Russia does control the Crimea. You might not like they way they took it over, but they did.
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Business decision (Score:2, Insightful)
While it may not be ethical, it is a business decision, probably the one with the least downsides. Exactly like their decisions about the HK protesters map. They complied so they can continue doing business with these corrupt authoritarian countries. To the eyes of the rest of the planet, it looks bad, but they won't take any red ink on ther balance sheet.
Apple is still a company that has to make tons of money to keep the shareholders happy, and sometimes, these business decisions seem unethical. But they'r
Re: Business decision (Score:2, Informative)
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How is it not ethical? Crimea was annexed by violence - it's now part of Russia. That's how changes in international borders almost always come about.
Or should Apple refuse to call it The United States of America, and instead show the names and borders of the various indigenous nations whose territory was stolen through warfare and genocide?
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>> Crimea was annexed by violence
Except of course it wasn't. Not a single shot was fired, and a referendum was held in which the people of Crimea (a delapidated and disillusioned backwater within Ukraine, which is itself much poorer than Russia) overwhelmingly decided to secede. You can argue that the results were manipulated, and they probably were, but to say that "Crimea was annexed by violence" is simply not incorrect.
Also what most Americans don't know: Crimea was "given" to Ukrainian SSR by Khru
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Aren't you full of Russian propaganda. The referendum was at gun point by unmarked Russian soldiers (violation of international laws). The annexation of Crimea has always been a illegal matter and is going to remain that until it gets corrected. The borders were re-drawn after the collapse of the Soviet Union and Russia violated several agreements relating to the Ukraine and Russian borders area and special agreements relating to Crimea.
Russia has no legal claim on Crimea and never had one. Russia also inva
Verifiably horseshit (Score:2)
Nobody forced anyone to do anything, let alone at gunpoint. As I said, no violence transpired at all. And a good number of people (notably almost all Crimean Tatars, which are a minority there) chose not to vote, which wouldn't happen if this was done "at gunpoint".
Regarding legalities, "international law" is mostly fiction as you can't really make sovereign states to do (or not do) anything of consequence. The only thing that works _sometimes_ is war, and war against a nuclear-capable state is not feasible
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You're right that international law is largely fiction - really more of a gentleman's agreement to keep things flowing smoothly.
>The only thing that works _sometimes_ is war
Not at all - trade sanctions, embargoes, and other economic and political sanctions and incentives can be quite effective as well, and are generally much cheaper.
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I struggle to think of a single case where sanctions actually led to any change in any country's foreign or domestic policy.
Read up on it (Score:2)
Before you show your ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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How about the Israeli annexation of the West Bank? I suppose we should just move on, right?
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Where drawing maps are concerned? Sure. Borders are a political fiction - if a map doesn't reflect the current political situation, it's wrong. And how you choose to label your maps doesn't have any effect on the reality.
If you've got a problem with the Israeli's militant expansionism (and I think any reasonable person should), then by all means do something about it. Refuse to do business with them. Better yet lobby our government to stop helping to fund and support their war crimes, making us morally
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Oh, it's ethical all right. If enough people say something (political) is so, it becomes so. This is why they say that "history is written by the conquerors." Eventually, the conquerors repeat their version of the truth so long and so often that it becomes so.
Apple, by re-drawing the map, repeats Russia's fiction, helping it to become one step closer to irreversible reality.
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The thing you're overlooking is "by the conquerors" . The conquerors get to write history - writing history doesn't make them the conquerors.
Drawing the map isn't what makes something real - a military conquering the territory does. If you don't like the current situation, you need to address the army occupying (at least by threat) the conquered territory - not waste your time refusing to re-label maps.
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Oops - that bolding was supposed to be just "by the conquerors". Hit the submit button before the error registered.
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While it may not be ethical
So wait, it isn't ethical when Apple follows the law...
Yet you were just complaining in the "right to repair" story two down from this one that isn't wrong for Apple to Not follow the law!
So you bitch when they follow the law and say they should break it, right after bitching when they break the law and say they should follow it.
Can't you even make up your mind on what's good and what's bad for even a couple hours?!
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While it may not be ethical, it is a business decision, probably the one with the least downsides.
So was IBM selling Jew death tabulators to the Nazis.
Apple is still a company that has to make tons of money to keep the shareholders happy, and sometimes, these business decisions seem unethical. But they're not the only ones complying. Just one of the biggest. Which shows that Apple does not run the world. Governments do. And not all of them are kind and peaceful.
Goebbel goebbel goebbel I can't believe tomorrow is turkey day already. With all the people on the Internet peddling excuses most people grow out of by the time they are 8... time sure does fly.
Mommmmmmmy!!! Why am I getting in trouble????? My siiissttter did it too!!!!!!!!!1!!!
Following local laws (Score:5, Insightful)
This just appears to a case of a foreign company following local laws. Nothing really noteworthy. Western nations barely batted an eye when Russia annexed Crimea, but now we are supposed to be outraged when a private company in one of those western nations complies with Russian laws related to this incident.
Either treat Russia's military action like you did with Iraq invading Kuwait, or shut up about it. Our state department should be standing up to Russia not our smartphone companies.
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Of course that was followed by some whataboutery bullshit as well. But that's enough off topic.
But quite frankly, as long as Apple makes these changes for Russia only, I don't see the problem.
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Dictatorships have no valid, legal rights, only free nations.
See also China vs. Hong Kong.
It's an issue of practicality, not morality.
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This just appears to a case of a foreign company following local laws. Nothing really noteworthy.
They have other options that don't involve marking it as Russian territory.
They could refuse to show the area altogether. They could refuse to label the map.
Western nations barely batted an eye when Russia annexed Crimea,
Resulting sanctions have cost "the west" hundreds of billions of dollars in lost business.
Either treat Russia's military action like you did with Iraq invading Kuwait, or shut up about it.
Seriously your argument is either US directly attack Russia or STFU ???... how this idiocy won this post +5 is beyond my comprehension.
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This just appears to a case of a foreign company following local laws. Nothing really noteworthy.
Aside from the questionable logic that "just following orders" shields a company from questions of morality, there is the much more important question of money. If Apple is concerned about losing Russian revenue, then following the Russian laws that support that revenue is the proper course of corporate action. However, if there is potential loss of US and Western revenue due to the appearance of supporting immoral acts, then this would be a poor corporate action by Apple. Since Russian revenue is tiny c
I don't think it's wrong (Score:1, Insightful)
Next surprise when (Score:3)
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I'm not sure why this should be controversial (Score:2)
Russia invaded Crimea. Russia took the Crimea. The Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine, it is forcefully taken territory, as has happened to countries since.. well, since the invention of countries. I wasn't happy about it. I thought it was horrific. But are we going to do anything about it, aside from some pissy sanctions that will have no effect on Russia's behavior? Oh, no, we're not going to do anything about it? Then it sounds like it's time to redraw the maps.
From the Lion of Winter:
Re:I'm not sure why this should be controversial (Score:5, Insightful)
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I want to address some of what you said:
While we can't exactly wrest it back from them,
We could. We just are not willing to pay the blood price to do it.
We can formally oppose the action and refuse to recognize it as legitimate... This is not uncommon...
It is common, but also useless. It does not matter what the maps say, what matters is what is happening on the ground. If Crimeans vote in Russian elections, pay taxes to Moscow, and follow Russian law, then Crimea is part of Russia.
Re:I'm not sure why this should be controversial (Score:5, Informative)
Actually only 19 countries in the world officially recognize Taiwan (RoC) as independent nation. Those are a pletora of small (mostly island) nations. All the others bowed under PRC pressure and only maintain unofficial relations, while still treating it as a de facto independent state.
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Theory is both sides consider themselves as a lawful government for both territories. But AFAIK no country (neither officially or unofficially) considers RoC as a government for continental China. PRC external diplomacy policy for this is "us or them, pick one" and all but those 19 countries choose PRC.
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Because you didn't like the result. That's all you have to go on.
Yeah, events that happened almost 100 years ago with zero relevance to today's governments. And as a country founded on slavery and genocide, one that practiced Jim Crow long after Stalin was dead, are you sure you want to be throwing stones here?
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You forgot about how Crimea voted, and voted to join Russia. Don't give me nonsense that the votes were faked, etc
Why is that nonsense? Russia invades, stations their troops there, takes control of the government and cuts off ties to Ukraine, holds and controls the elections, and then Russia announces the result is 83% turnout indicating 97% wanting to join Russia? You can't possibly consider that a fair and accurate election, unless you have a particular axe to grind. I mean, the official Russian line during every other stage of the invasion was a lie, why wouldn't that have been a lie as well? Then there was that tim
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Is it a good idea to use a map to express such disapproval, though?
Maps are supposed to be informative. What if somebody looks at the map, concludes they can cross the border based on Crimea still being shown as belonging to Ukraine and gets in trouble with the Russians?
It might be a bit of a stretch but it seems to me it's best that when maps represent the actual state of the world as closely as possible. While there are edge cases, there's no doubt that Crimea is currently under Russian control, and going
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Maps are supposed to be informative. What if somebody looks at the map, concludes they can cross the border based on Crimea still being shown as belonging to Ukraine and gets in trouble with the Russians?
Well the border is disputed. They're in the middle of a middle of a hot war, as Russia has spread their attacks further into the rest of the Ukraine. Seems a bit premature to redraw map lines as if it's all settled, really.
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The thing is, passive-aggressive pissyness does nothing. Now, cut Russia off from international trade, isolate them economically, socially, and diplomatically. Then keep at is until their economy collapses and the country falls apart... just like was done then they called themselves the USSR... and THEN you'll see some results, Ukraine can get its rightful property back, and everybody can change their maps back.
But refusing to acknowledge the annexation (really, invasion and theft); without backing that u
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And those western allied nations can go fuck themselves since they overthrew the elected government of Ukraine. Watching their faux outrage is like watching Republicans who insist that Bush "kept us safe" from terrorist attacks.
But what if it's the will of the people? (Score:1)
Perhaps you should have protested earlier in 1995 when Ukraine forcibly suppressed the Crimean freedom movement?
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Maybe you should have gone back even further to 1945 when the soviets ethnically cleansed the area?
Ultimately though, these are just lines on a map; it's only boots on the ground and military might that makes them 'real'.
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Localization (Score:2)
Complied with Russian Law (Score:3)
...now shown as Russian territory... when viewed from Russia....labelling Crimea as part of Ukrainian territory was a criminal offence under Russian law...
This boils down to an often-asked question these days: should multinational companies comply with evil laws passed by dictatorial nations? Part of me just wants Apple to pull-out of Russia, and for the US to impose more sanctions. But the bottom line is that Russia successfully annexed Crimea while the rest of the world stood around and ignored it. Even Ukraine's allies and neighbors did nothing. We have no right to make "show backbone" when no nation did.
The reason this happened is because the nations of the world can be divided into colonialist and post-colonialist. The colonialist nations are highly nationalistic and seek to expand their borders. The post-colonialist nations are more ethnically diverse and thus less nationalistic. Russia and China are colonialist. Russia interferes with other nations politics, annexes nearby countries. China claims ownership of other nations and builds small islands to try and claim areas of the South China sea. Most of Europe is post-colonialist, and they are unsure what to do when a colonialist nation annexes a neighbor, especially when it happens subtly and surreptitiously. They aren't willing to start wars over it.
"Apple Has No Backbone." Perhaps, but on this issue, neither does the U.S. or Europe. If they let Crimea be taken over, should Apple be the lone voice to stand against it?
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Who is "we" in this context that didn't show any backbone? My country certainly didn't do anything about it, but my country isn't me. There was fuck all I could do about it, so I fail to see how "we" didn't "show backbone" has anything to do with how much we can criticize how Apple conducts business.
They should treat Crimea like any other disputed regions. What does the map of Jammu and Kashmir look like? What about the West Bank? How about Transnistria?
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a) The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
b) out of all entities that could take an action against Russia's annexation of Crimea I would expect US to be the first in the queue. Perhaps with a large gap after them. That was my naivety speaking. My rational self knows that we are fucked. "We" as "people", as "country" (regardless of which country you are in) and as "mankind".
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a) Yup. And they did nothing. This is another reason that the US should not have gone into Iraq and Afghanistan. We time, money, and will power in a nation building exercise. So when a nation performed an aggressive map-changing act, which is the kind of thing that really matters, we didn't act.
b)
I would expect US to be the first in the queue
I would expect Europe to be first in the queue since it is their neighbor. I can understand why the US would not act here without the EU taking the lead. But I don't know much here -- did they ask for US as
In related news ... (Score:5, Funny)
You know the drill (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple loves a dictator (Score:1)
While no longer being ran by sociopathic liver-thief Steve Jobs, Apple has always sucked up to the dictators and rights-removing societies -- including China, Afghanistan, Turkey, and now Russia.
This is nothing new.
Apple Fanbois will legitimize this with "It's what you have to do in business."
People with ethics, morals, and honesty think differently.
I'm sure "We were just following orders" works as well for Apple as it did for the Nazis in 1944.
#godwin's law
E
just mark it as annexed. (Score:2)
just mark it as annexed, paint a few green men on there and move on.
you can't really just mark it as ukrainean territory anyways without being a liar, because russia is in de facto in military control of the region.
so just portray it as such. otherwise it will confuse a fking lot of people about which visa they need to visit the region.
look maybe if finland asked apple to portray most of karelia as a finnish region apple would do it BUT IT WOULD SURE CONFUSE THE F**K OUT OF PEOPLE WHEN THEY APPROACH THE BOR
Re:The article is misleading (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure Crimea VOTED to be part of Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ [wikipedia.org]... .
I'm pretty sure Russians voted for Crimea to be part of Russia [wikipedia.org].
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Yea, neo-Nazies:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel... [haaretz.com]
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I'm pretty sure Crimea VOTED to be part of Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] . That a lot of countries "don't recognise" this because of Russian inteference is irrelevent. Crimea voted, and that was the outcome. Because USA and the rest of the shills don't like it and don't agree with it does not change the outcome. Apply the same sort of logic to the USA 2016 elections and consider how that would look. How about every grows up, accpets Crimea is a soveriegn state that can do what they want - if they want to be part of Russia, mor epower to them, and the world should respect that.
Well in some Crimea regions voted more than 100% of population. Even dead ones returned from the graves to vote so their land should be returned to "mother Russia"... And yes absolute majority of votes have supported this idea. Also ethic Crimeans were obstructed to participate in voting at all costs and voting was monitored by armed "nice green people". Just a perfect implementation of democracy... This perfectly reminds "democratic" elections in the former Soviet Union or nowadays Belarusia.
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That's a copy and paste of baseless whining from Republicans whenever they lose elections in the United States