Apple is Evaluating New Keyboard Mechanisms To Make Thinner MacBooks (appleinsider.com) 156
Future MacBooks could be made even thinner by using a slimmer keyboard, by switching out the butterfly mechanism for one where the keys are positioned much closer to the circuit board, reducing the amount of travel and materials required to register a key press and to actuate. From a report: The butterfly keyboard mechanism used in the current generation of MacBook Pro models has gone through a number of revisions to fix issues with how it functions, including occasions where debris could interfere with the mechanism's operation. The issues have led to the creation of a repair program to fix the problem, but complaints about the component continue to be made. The keyboard is also a space-occupying component of a notebook's design, with the switch mechanism providing an actuation, namely the physical movement of the key to register a press and to reset. In order to allow this to happen, a mechanism has to sit between the key and the circuit board, taking up valuable space that could be used to make the notebook design even thinner, or to provide more battery capacity. In a patent published by the US Patent and Trademark Office on Tuesday titled "Keyboard assemblies having reduced thickness and method of forming keyboard assemblies," Apple seeks to do just that.
OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:5, Insightful)
unthin at apple starts at $5999! (Score:4, Insightful)
unthin at apple starts at $5999!
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Re:OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:4, Insightful)
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I want to plug in a regular USB device
You can get USB-C native devices. They are easier to use, since they are symmetrical and can't be mis-rotated, and the transfer speed is higher.
USB-C is the future. It is superior to USB-A in every way.
and the SSD will wear out. So good luck in 5 years when all the write cycles are used.
There is no plausible usage pattern that will wear out an SSD in only five years.
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And that covers the +5 years scenario. I'd like to see a plausible explanation for the -5 year wearout scenario.
[yes, it's a joke, for the humor impaired.]
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It is superior to USB-A in every way.
Except in ubiquity.
Re: OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:4, Informative)
I do. I owned a 2017 and after 6 months went back to the 2015. The thin keyboard with the track bar is intolerable. It's almost impossible to type out without constantly activating the trackbar, and the keys are so low there's no real tactile sense to them. Almost everyone who owns one hates the new keyboard. Apple need to seriously reverse this madness
Re: OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:2)
You're not doing it right. Apple products are not meant to be used, but presented.
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I own a macbook pro from 2013 for personal use that works quite ok... But planning to upgrade quite soon..
+ HDMI output
+ Thunderbolt
+ 2x USB-A ports
+ MiniSD port
+ Magnetic power-cable
+ Possible to replace the SSD.
+ Still quite ok battery-life (~5h)
+ physical F-keys
+ Good screen.
+ Good keyboard.
+ Low weight.
- CPU is not the most recent..
- Nvidia card is quite old and slow..
- Not user upgradable RAM so stuck with 16G.
- Not a spill-proof keyboard.
At work i have a macbook pro from 2017 and it sucks..
+ Quite rec
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Re:OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:5, Funny)
Desktops are a pain to lug home for when you want to work remotely, also a pain to bring to a meeting.... otherwise they are nice.
Re: OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:2)
My employer provides me with an office workstation. I have my own at home as well. No use for a laptop in the meetings I have, if I want to record something I have a phone. If I need to present something they get me an AV cart with laptop streaming to the projector.
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yeah, its totally doable and probably saves money on those workstations, but do you virtual desktop into your work machine from home or are you moving code back and forth? When I worked at a medical records software company anything that put data on another device (even my personal iPad) was unacceptable, the laptop was locked down for HIPPA compliance... not that you couldn't probably break in but HIPPA only requires that you do the industry standard data protection. Still, they did slag the drives after
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do you virtual desktop into your work machine from home or are you moving code back and forth?
Git pull is your friend.
Re:OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:5, Interesting)
Look at the Dell Precision lines. This is what I have : one from 2014 that still _pretty_ fast (Linux Mint) and a new one from (2018) with 64 GB of RAM (Linux Mint also), a real graphic card, plenty of ports, ... The keyboard is just "ok" but most of the time, it's connected to my ultrawide monitor and my Filco mechanical keyboard :)
My dream laptop have a mechanical keyboard! I don't care about the thickness of my dream laptop. Make it 2 inches if required! But give me a mechanical keyboard on my laptop! :)
Re:OMG - stop this thinness craze! (Score:4, Funny)
My dream laptop have a mechanical keyboard!
Apple's butterfly keyboard is mechanical.
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Keyboard enthusiasts (too) often argue over the term "mechanical" when it comes to keyboards.
I think most would agree though, that what they mean is that actuation is achieved through a mechanism -- having mechanical linkage.
The butterfly mechanism is not part of the actuation, but is a levelling mechanism: it replaces the plunger and barrel of a full-travel keyboard switch.
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So is the leveling mechanism electromagnetic? It certainly looks mechanical to me as well.
Enthusiasts often argue over terms when they try to misappropriate them from language. They are wrong. The both mechanisms have names used to describe them. They should use them.
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My dream laptop have a mechanical keyboard! I don't care about the thickness of my dream laptop. Make it 2 inches if required! But give me a mechanical keyboard on my laptop! :)
Walmart's got your back. [walmart.com]
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My experience with Dell lately has been abysmal. Two laptops shipped with missing power cables. One of the laptops had too little drive space to allow Windows Update to run. The desktop failed within the year with burned-out video and, despite the case having expansion slots, it turned out that the motherboard didn't.
F---, would not buy again.
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"Mechanical keyboard" is a term used to refer to keyboards with a switch mechanism, like the Cherry MX.
Cheap membrane keyboards aren't "mechanical", neither are the vast majority of laptop keyboards by this standard. The model M is in the "buckling spring" category, which while awesome isn't technically "mechanical" either.
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This would be why I'm still using a Thinkpad T420 from the pre chiclet era. I also have a USB version of the same keyboard, which now seems to go for several hundred dollars apiece on eBay. I wonder why?
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Apple rediscovers the Atari 400! (Score:5, Funny)
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I was thinking Sinclair ZX80.
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This is exactly what I was thinking too [wikipedia.org]. Watch for it soon!
Also, the Sincliar ZX-81 keyboard [wikipedia.org].
The travel distance is too short already (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The travel distance is too short already (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't feel like "typing" - It feels like I'm tapping into a steel plate with tactile feedback. They need some more travel distance OR more resistance material between the keypress and actuation.
I'm all for thin laptops - but whacking off a few mms thickness isn't that noticeable when you're destroying the one MAJOR feature of a laptop (over a touchscreen device) - The keyboard! And if anything, I'd prefer lighter over more thinner.
The surface pro keyboard cover has decent feel and it seems pretty thin too, maybe Apple should take notes (it's not great either, but, for feel, it's better than the butterfly keyboard)
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I detest the recent MacBook keyboards. I've gone back to my 2013 MBP after having the keyboard fail on my newer one, oh and then the screen went too. Oh and it also had the issue with the newer keyboard style marking the screen, but that's another story.
Anyway, the travel on the newer keyboards is horrible. Some things need feedback, key presses on a laptop is just one of them.
I've already decided that I won't buy another Mac unless they get rid of the butterfly crap and if this news is anything to go by, t
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Why canâ(TM)t Apple make a decent keyboard anymore?
The last one really worth a crap was the ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II, with the full-width foot that slid out when you slid the control on the back. Everything since has either felt mushy, or been garbage. So it's been a long, long time since Apple has been able to make a decent keyboard.
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Why canâ(TM)t Apple make a decent keyboard anymore?
The last one really worth a crap was the ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II, with the full-width foot that slid out when you slid the control on the back. Everything since has either felt mushy, or been garbage. So it's been a long, long time since Apple has been able to make a decent keyboard.
I'd say that within the limitations of the semi-modern laptop form factor, the keys in the Powerbooks of the 1998-2000 Wallstreet/Pismo era were pretty darned good... up there with Thinkpads.
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Yes and you could replace it too! (Score:2)
Remember when you could not only replace keys with a bit of effort but you could easily replace the whole keyboard! Or even further back when you could spill coffee on the thing and pour it out without immediately breaking the computer. Now they break from sand and fixing a key is difficult to impossible and removing the keyboard is the last step of complete disassembly.
Perhaps they want a tablet but will not go against Jobs saying laptops are not tablets? Slowly moving towards a 2 screen book of two tabl
Re: The travel distance is too short already (Score:2)
While Apple evaluates thinness I have evaluated some Cherry MX Blue based keyboards... hurt my hands less, don't get stuck, uses a normal USB cable. Feels good to type on. Will last for 30 years, and cost less than some iPhone chargers I've seen.
They did it already (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called an iPad. Stop trying to make your fucking laptops thinner! If people care about thin, they'll get an iPad. If they care about typing, they'll get a MB from 4+ years ago and only be moderately disappointed. There isn't a niche in between the two. You tried with the butterfly switches and you failed. Give up, and at least give us the crappy keyboards back. And with that added thickness you can add more battery and better graphics. And some ports. You know, things people actually want.
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The niche in between the two is a Macbook Air: a tiny, compromised machine that runs MacOS. Unfortunately, every laptop the company makes these days is a Macbook Air even if it's not called that.
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Also, bring back MagSafe and Steve Jobs. :P
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If people care about thin, they'll get an iPad.
When the iPad is a PC with tactile differences between keys then you may have a point. But right now you are just saying: "Stop trying to make cars more fuel efficient! If you want to save on fuel, buy a llama and ride that to work!"
Re: They did it already (Score:2)
People want whatever Apple gives them because they are -sheep-, I mean Apple consumers.
It doesn't matter what they make, which is why make less and less of the shit they produce.
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That's the thing, though. People who don't need the same things as us are exactly the kind of people who should be buying iPads in the first place.
Instead, their insane demands are destroying the MacBooks and Apple are just following along.
Stop the "people are idiots" fallacy already! (Score:3, Interesting)
Whenever somebody says anything like this, one of you morons crawls out of the woodworks to tell us how everyone but us is a total retard, has no clue what he wants, and doesn't care anyway.
People who have other priorities on life are not automatically stupid or careless! We just literally treated them that way until they were! Deliberately!
My dad is the dumbest person you've ever met. Yet he managed to install DOS and use Word on a PC with no OS, write config.sys files, use a command line and Word shortcut
Re:They did it already (Score:4, Insightful)
What the majority of people want is irrelevant. People don't buy computers because of things that they want, for the most part. Rather, they buy computers because they need a computer. For a computer to be successful, there are only two critical requirements. First, it must be good enough overall, even if it lacks some features that some users might prefer. Second, it must not have any glaring design flaws that are serious enough to push any significant number of potential customers away.
Thickness is, for the most part, something that is covered only by that first category. No one has ever (snarkiness notwithstanding) said, "I'd buy a new laptop, if only they could make it thinner." Thin does typically translate to lightweight, which might be an enticement for some people, but only up to the point where other critical functionality is compromised, like a usable keyboard or adequate battery life.
Now perhaps if we were talking about Apple laptops being ridiculously thick compared with everybody else's laptops, then thickness might be a turnoff, because the product would look old and clunky by comparison. But as long as they don't fall way, way behind the competition, making laptops thinner won't buy them any sales. It can only hurt sales, if doing so results in a product with a keyboard that is somehow even worse than the current nightmare.
By contrast, a lot of people have said, "I'd buy a new laptop if the keyboards didn't suck." Still more have said, "I'd buy a new laptop if the battery life were better than my old one." Unlike thinness, these are real problems that can either drive purchases if addressed, or prevent purchases if left unaddressed. Apple needs to quit trying to make these things thinner for a while, and focus on making a keyboard that doesn't absolutely suck.
I say this while tying on a 1.5-year-old butterfly keyboard with two keys falling off. Everything about this design is bad, both subjectively and objectively. Instead of making these things thinner, they need to go back to the previous generation design, which actually worked, had a long enough key throw to be comfortable, and didn't generally feel like you're typing on a rubber mat.
Saying that the current MacBook Pro keyboard sucks doesn't begin to cover it, and anything thinner would inherently be even worse. If they're really going down that path, IMO, it's time to fire the entire management chain and start over, before they release something so bad that it gets panned across the board, and the entire product line goes down like a lead balloon.
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You know, things people actually want.
That's the thing. You don't have any idea what the vast majority of people want. You know what you want which is consistent with what a small percentage of people want. These forums are always hilarious because you get a bunch of elitists who think they know better than some megacorp that has a long track record of meeting the vast majority of people's demand.
I want something which performs as good or better than my full sized desktop keyboard and has a screen as good or better than my non-glare desktop monitors. If I wanted a chicklet keyboard and monitor full of glare and reflections, I would buy an antique Color Computer and television or maybe an IBM PC Junior.
I want to get stuff done and not waste my time. These things do not deserve to be considered personal computers. If Apple wants to sell smart TVs, then call them that.
Well of course (Score:5, Funny)
Because if there's one thing most people agree on with regard to recent Apple laptop keyboards, it's that the keys simply have way too much travel!
Seems like a solid strategy (Score:2)
How do you stop dust from getting in your keyboard?
Obviously, make your keyboard smaller than the dust!
This is really stupid (Score:2)
Others may be content with a tablet, to consume content and do a few token searches when not being told what to consume.
Apple is confusing the need for light weight with a need for thin. These things are more than thin enough. We just need good screen resolution, good battery life, and a good keyboard, a safe-disconnect power cord, and a few useful ports.
Re: This is really stupid (Score:2)
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Apple is confusing the need for light weight with a need for thin. These things are more than thin enough.
Not an Apple user, but I suspect that part of the problem is that thick and lightweight translates to "cheap-feeling". Light, but thin (dense), feels expensive.
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The big advantage of Mac was that you got Unix and could also run the IT-mandated Microsoft enterprise applications (aka, mediocre-ware). With Linux you'd at least have to use a VM to do this.
As for the Macbook, I think there are some patents still tightly held for the use of the touch pad and gestures, and I find it much easier to use when it is undocked than any other laptop I've tried.
Whatever... (Score:3)
... I'm just going to plugin in a USB-to-PS/2 adapter and hang a Model M off the thing anyway.
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Don't you mean a USB-C male to USB-A female extension, a USB-A to PS/2 adapter , and from there to a PS/2 to an AT keyboard adapter?
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Nope. I did, however, mistakenly add that extraneous slash (which I suspect was the source of some snark). The USB-C-to-A cable plus the USB-A-to-dual PS2 adapter let me use a keyboard and mouse that actually fits my hand, doesn't work against years of muscle memory, and, of course, there's that glorious tactile feedback. Let them get as thin as they want so long as they don't abandon USB.
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The connector name has a slash. PS/2. Just like the same model of IBM computer. You had it right the first time. No snark.
PS2 is a Playstation 2.
Apple reinvents the membrane keyboard (Score:2)
As found on the worst of bad 8-bit computers of the early-to-mid 1980s.
Tactile response? (Score:2)
I see a lot of posts calling for actual travel on keys. I just do not get that. Who uses a laptop keyboard for work? Doesn't everyone plug in an actual keyboard? A laptop keyboard is a backup entry device for emergencies and that's it. This is why it is OK for key layouts to be scrunched on most laptops. What the hell, people?
BTW, I hate Macs and their GUIs. But making laptop keyboards tiny and thin is a great idea, imho.
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Virtually every owner of a business laptop, for example the Lenovo T series.
If there's one thing that I want on an airplane or while typing in bed is an almost entirely separate ("plug in"? Why not wireless, you heathen?) hunk of input device to juggle in limited space with no solid supporting surface.
To quote Monty Python, "you're a looney."
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I guess I have always seen a laptop as a device you use at work (plugged into keyboard, mouse, monitor etc), at home (also plugged in), and to present (plugged into just the projector and a presentation remote). The idea of working on the laptop alone is very foreign to my use case. I guess I would buy a second laptop just for that if I had such uses.
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Re: Tactile response? (Score:2)
I plug in a keyboard into my desktop. My laptop is made to be portable. It's not a backup keyboard. It's the keyboard that works wherever the laptop is.
Did you ever stop to think why it's called a laptop?
Just because every Mac user is too poor or incompetent to use two computers does not change the fundamental purpose of a laptop or a laptop keyboard.
THIS is the reason I switched back to a PC (Score:2)
I bought a Macbook Pro with that damn butterfly keyboard and it was the most horrible typing experience of my life. After three months I sold it on eBay and bought a Windows based laptop. F*ck that shitty keyboard.
The only Apple device I have left is an iPhone. My next phone will probably be a Samsung. No reason left to stick with Apple since they are ruining everything.
Even LESS travel? Are they fucking insane? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a serious question to anyone working at Apple:
Do you guys even use your fucking MacBook keyboards, at all?
Can someone stand up to Tim Cook, who only seem to use iPads and thus have zero fucking clue as to how bad the MacBook keyboards have become?
I had to buy a 2017 MacBook Air, because that's the last usable keyboard you guys made. And it's not really a 2017 MacBook Air, is it? The parts inside are the same as the 2015 model.
I may prefer macOS to Windows or Linux, but at this point even if MacBooks were free I'm not sure I would want one. The fact that they're more expensive than ever is only making things worst. It's like you guys want the Mac to fail so people stop buying them and you can finally only sell iPhones and iPads, because you certainly seem to be in love with your fucking iToys.
Even if you gave me a 2019 MacBook, the first thing I would do is rip the fucking thing apart and rebuild it in a thicker case so I can put a real keyboard in it, along with more efficient cooling.
You guys should call Noctua, they know how to make computer cooling systems that don't sound like jet engines.
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You guys should call Noctua, they know how to make computer cooling systems that don't sound like jet engines.
Indeed. Unfortunately they only know how to make computer cooling systems that are no where near small enough for laptops nor can they push enough air to keep them cool.
I'm sure you'll look cool though with a badarse heatsink and a 140mm fan hanging out the back of your ultra thin device.
Re: Even LESS travel? Are they fucking insane? (Score:2)
Every Mac user at work complains about their MPB's taking off like a rocket ship whenever they run VirtualBox. None of the Windows or Linux users have the same problem.
But it's thin, I guess. Which I'm sure all the Mac users find ever so useful with their docked laptops.
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So thin, you have to permanently affix dongles and a desk to it.
I think they missed the point. I remember when I could recommend a Mac over a Windows machine to people for serious work (because they'd get the benefits of a *nix system and a solid desktop). Those days are long past.
Apple no longer makes professional-oriented devices in my opinion.
Re: Even LESS travel? Are they fucking insane? (Score:2)
My situation too. 2017 MacBook Air with 1 TB SSD (aftermarket)
TRANSLATION TIME (Score:5, Informative)
"Apple is Evaluating New Keyboard Mechanisms To Make Thinner MacBooks"
TRANSLATION:
"Apple is Evaluating New Keyboard Mechanisms To Make Even Shittier MacBooks"
Ultimate Goal? (Score:2)
A 0.0 inches MacBook?
Don't scoff, those idiots are probably thinking about it right now.
Head out of ass, please! (Score:2)
Their existing Bluetooth keyboard is too thin, so it bends quite easily. The Smart folio keyboard thing is built like crap. I’m switching to Dell, at least for keyboards; Apple is really getting dumb with their design priorities.
Re: Head out of ass, please! (Score:2)
No, their design priorities haven't change. The priority is to make something the marketing department likes. Users have never been important, but in the past you were lucky enough for the two to overlap.
Keyboards should be comfy and ergonomic. (Score:2)
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They might as well go to a thin film membrane keyboard.
Who knew the Atari 400 was where we would end up in 2019!
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Fun? You get giggles out of using a keyboard?
I'd like to see touch sensor keys; touch sensors have been available for 60 years or so (in elevators) and surely could be engineered for good operation once you're used to them. Zero motion means fast response is possible, and the actuation force could be a small fraction of a mechanical switch's force.
In fact, a keyswitch could be designed with a capacitive or optical sensor and no contact involved at all.
I thought the stupidity ended when Ives left.... (Score:2)
I thought the stupidity ended when Johnny 'Make Everything Thin" Ives left, but apparently, this is not the case.
H
ey Apple, I still holding on the MBP 2013 because your new machines suck.
If you don't come up with a usable laptop replacement by the time it dies, my money will be going back to Lenovo.
Oh and the same thing goes for a phone with a headphone jack!
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I'm rapidly getting there. My 2010 MBP is now unsupported for new OS versions. It's still getting security updates, for a bit anyway. Once that stops I'm not sure what I'll be doing. It helps a little that MacOS is steadily getting worse while Windows and Linux get better.
And this old thing has the original keyboard, that I use frequently, that works perfectly. It's not a great keyboard, but it's a LOT better than the crap they make now.
Thinner is not something I want from my next laptop. The old 15" MBP is
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They had a generation of designers grow up under his wing.
They don't know what else to do, because they're on their own now. It's telling that the first thing they do is a rehash of a bad idea their old boss had.
Only one reason to make it thinner (Score:2)
...is to remove the 3.5mm headphone jack....
Re:Only one reason to make it thinner is to remove (Score:2)
...is to remove the 3.5mm headphone jack....
No, no, no. Don't you pay attention at Apple marketing events? All it takes is "courage" to remove a 3.5mm audio from a device. Gawd. ;-)
I dob;t kbow wha you are talning abot (Score:2)
my ke23yubard workos ju tot fin33
Haptic touch with no physical keys (Score:2)
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You do know that I can tell the difference between vibrating and my finger moving in space, right?
Proprioception: we're not octopuses.
Re: Haptic touch with no physical keys (Score:2)
Yeah, because that's what every keyboard user is itching for: the experience of typing on a tablet.
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Note to Apple: the comment above is sarcastic. Nobody wants to type on a display. Your own iPad external keyboards are proof.
Introducing the new Moth Keyboard (Score:2)
Oh no, it's the return of the membrane keyboard! (Score:2)
I remember as a kid literally getting bruises on my fingertips from having to mash the keys on a Timex-Sinclair 1000 so hard to get them to register. (And that was with each keypress normally inputting an entire BASIC keyword, not just a single letter)
What's old is new again! :)
Thin is Apple's only idea? (Score:2)
Has it come to this: thin is Apple's only idea? Then maybe Tim Cook should stop eating. Just stop.
Capacitive touch board (Score:2)
Why do I get the idea this whole thing is going towards a capacitive area sized and shaped like a keyboard, but with the texture of keys embossed in it? Maybe while you're at it, make each touch event play the sound of a buckling spring mechanism so we can all tear up in frustration while we use it.
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I got myself a dasKeyboard it wasn't a cheap keyboard, and I admit I probably could had gotten another one that is comparable for less. However I really like mechanical keys switches, and the longer typing distance. That will give me a good feel between a registered press and a miss-type, for when I am typing quickly.
That said, Apple and Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards are not bad at all especially on laptops. Where a 5lbs keyboard isn't good for a laptop, however for a desktop system, a good keyboard is impor
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That's just Apple "being green*", I suppose.
The PCBs are green.
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No one has posted this, because it's really old and most of us saw it in 2009.