Apple's Dual-SIM Tech Ruins Verizon Coverage (pcmag.com) 76
Apple's new dual-SIM function, which lets iPhone XS, XS Max, and XR owners use two cellular subscriptions at once, will come to new phones today. But the current implementation will have a huge negative impact on Verizon subscribers who choose to use dual-SIM in the US, PCMag reported Tuesday, citing engineers who have seen early builds of the software. From the report: Dual-SIM, a popular feature in the rest of the world, is largely unknown in the US. Generally, it's used for three things: roaming internationally, where you get a foreign SIM and also keep your local number; having home and work lines on one phone; or trying out multiple domestic services to see which one is better. Apple's dual-SIM relies on one physical SIM and an "electronic SIM" or eSIM, which is activated from a menu or an app. AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon promised eSIM support at launch, but neither Verizon nor T-Mobile will support the eSIM right now. T-Mobile is working on it and will support eSIM when its software is ready, the carrier told me.
[...] The problem comes when a physical Verizon SIM is pushed into the "secondary" position while the phone is in the US. Under the current software build, that kicks the Verizon connection down to 2G CDMA, an old network with significantly less coverage than the current LTE network. The old network also has no MMS support, and certainly wouldn't work for FaceTime. So Verizon customers may find they have perfectly good coverage with their SIM in "primary" position, but no signal and fewer features with the SIM in "secondary." When I asked Verizon about the CDMA network, the company said that 30 percent of its cell sites were now LTE-only, so there would be a definite coverage hit.
[...] The problem comes when a physical Verizon SIM is pushed into the "secondary" position while the phone is in the US. Under the current software build, that kicks the Verizon connection down to 2G CDMA, an old network with significantly less coverage than the current LTE network. The old network also has no MMS support, and certainly wouldn't work for FaceTime. So Verizon customers may find they have perfectly good coverage with their SIM in "primary" position, but no signal and fewer features with the SIM in "secondary." When I asked Verizon about the CDMA network, the company said that 30 percent of its cell sites were now LTE-only, so there would be a definite coverage hit.
Re:Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:5, Insightful)
That summary sounds like the problem is with Verizon, not with Apple.
Re: Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:2)
Actually, it is probably with Apple, since the second SIM only supports 2g and no MMS? How are you supposed to comparison shop when one has such limitations?
I'm not sure if this is an Apple code, something an update can fix, or if this is common on dual sim phones?
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>> WTH canâ(TM)t Apple just launch their own MVNO?
Because they want to sell phones to all their primary customer which are the carriers, not alienate them !
Re: Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:5, Informative)
Multi-SIM phones aren't common in the US because of incompatible networks and frequency bands, and a drive (by American consumers) for high-speed mobile data.
Most multi-SIM phones limit one or more SIMs to 2G GSM only, which limits those secondary SIMs to the T-Mobile network in most locations. (There are other 2G GSM networks, but ALL of those others are small regional networks with seriously limited coverage, and T-Mobile already has roaming agreements in place with all of them.)
Getting LTE and CDMA working in the same phone on a single SIM involved enough hacks as it is (this is why Verizon's earliest global phones used the SIM solely for the GSM modem and kept the CDMA modem totally separate, it took OEMs years to work out all the bugs). Getting it working over multiple SIMs is, of course, going to be a nightmare.
The rest of the world avoids this by:
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Hell, let me add this: Verizon's earliest global phones were "technically" dual-SIM. The CDMA modem and GSM modem could function (although the firmware programming for this was absent) simultaneously and independently and used two independent subscriber identities.
From the perspective of the firmware, it was just two independent cell modems, and was handled much the same as a dual-SIM phone was, although with the hacks to make them appear as one for the sake of delivering the user experience Verizon sold th
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3. Having consumers that are perfectly happy with their mobile internet running at 90s dial-up speeds
Huh? Can you explain this one? From a technical point of view that is. From a human consumer point of view you don't need to explain because it's completely wrong and shitty EDGE is not tollerated much less makes people "happy"
Re: Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:5, Insightful)
Still a nope. The secondary position only switches to that band because of the US network. Reread the article and you'll note that pushing the SIM into secondary outside of the US works just fine. The thing to note is that when you push a SIM into the secondary position, the device will attempt to ask the cell service to allow only inbound calls, since all outbound calls are done via the primary. Apparently, US cell networks explode in a puff of "WAAAA??" when asked to do this, and just go lowest common denominator in the confusion.
In short, asking a US carrier to provide an "inbound only" line is witchcraft and the iPhone just deals with the mass pandemonium as best as can be expected.
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The fact that Sprint (same wireless tech as Verizon) and AT&T (same wireless tech as T-Mobile) are *not* mentioned makes me wonder if this is a tower firmware bug that will be fixed soon.
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As a theoretical discussion, why would the phone announce where it is pushing outgoing calls? Why would the network need to know at all?
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Re: Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, it is probably with Apple, since the second SIM only supports 2g and no MMS
By that logic, your up-to-date browser is at fault for using an old encryption method to talk with a site that hasn't yet been updated to work with newer encryption.
Just as a browser will fallback to an older method in order to talk to a site that hasn't been updated, the eSIM is falling back to what little support it has until the carriers add full support.
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Unless Apple chose a proprietary esim? Because, I don't know, they want to be like Microsoft was in the 90's with a "we're big enough for everyone to follow our stuff and not established standards" attitude?
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Google Fi uses eSim to access T-Mobile and Sprint, starting with the ancient Nexus and xconttinuing through the Pixel.
The pixel 2 eSIM will not work *at all* on t-mobile, let alone at slow speeds. I've heard the same complaint regarding verizon as well.
So yes, this is totally a t-mobile/verizon problem.
If as you say the pixel 3 fixed this, then that's great - but I do have my doubts.
This article from 5 days ago says pretty much the same thing:
https://www.androidauthority.com/google-pixel-3-esim-918312/ [androidauthority.com]
However, the three major U.S. carriers which have stated they will support eSIM tech - Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile- do not currently have systems in place to support eSIM, at least not yet.
For the time being then, the Pixel 3 eSIM will only work with Project Fi and other select global carriers which support the tech. But at least you can rest assured that at some point in the future it will work here at home on at least three of the Big Four carriers.
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I'm entering this post on a Pixel 2 with no sim card, connected to a T-Mobile tower (LTE), so pretty sure it works.
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I can't say where the disconnect is, but Google Fi *is* T-Mobile (and Sprint). How can Fi use T-Mobile towers with eSim, but T-Mobile can't use T-Mobile towers with eSim. Maybe I'm no expert here, but that doesn't sound like a strictly technical problem.
I'm entering this post on a Pixel 2 with no sim card, connected to a T-Mobile tower (LTE), so pretty sure it works.
That's the thing, I don't know where the disconnect is either, but I have a pixel 2 and do NOT have google-fi.
Three t-mobile reps have all stated I can not use eSIM with them, they do not sell eSIM access, and the only way to use the phone with their service/accounts directly is to get a physical SIM (Which to their benefit was offered to me for free)
When searching around to figure out WTF, every forum post I came across was people saying the same thing.
When it comes to esim I'm no expert either, but all I
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Provisioning. T-Mobile doesn't have the system in place to remote-provision a eSIM. Project Fi works by using their own infrastructure to constantly reprovision the (e)SIM (this is also done for their traditional SIMs.)
Because Project Fi uses multiple subscriber identities (basically multiple independent SIM cards rolled into one, one for each underlying network - T-Mobile, Sprint, and US Cellular) and dynamically swaps them out throughout the day, they have to handle this themselves instead of relying on r
Re: Skeletons falling out of the closet (Score:2)
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Wow, that's completely wrong. I have a Pixel 2 XL, my wife and daughter both have a Pixel 2 (non XL version). All are on Google Fi which uses T-Mobile primarily in my area
So google-fi service can use esims on t-mobile towers.
But t-mobile service can NOT use esims on their own towers, which isn't completely wrong, or wrong at all, and t-mobile representatives will out right tell you this if you try to get esim on your t-mobile account to work.
My t-mobile service can also use at&t towers without having an at&t account, so that's hardly the surprising part.
The surprising part is that t-mobiles own carrier service can't use esims on their own towers, when their own tower
What (Score:4, Insightful)
How is this Apple's fault? This is 100% on Verizon. Verizon controls what network a device can connect to. MAYBE Apple's eSIM shit is wonky in some way, but since it works on 2G, that means Verizon can at least get the basic details from the SIM and talk to the device. That means they can associate it with a customer account and can put it on the proper network.
This is Verizon's fault.
Re:What (Score:5, Insightful)
Even the summary says that the networks promised support, then didn't follow through. Why that's being posed as Apple's fault in the summary makes no sense, unless you take into account the click-bait appeal of slamming Apple.
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AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon promised eSIM support at launch, ...
What does this tell you? It is in the summary as well. Your last sentence is debunked.
Apple forcing progress once again (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is rolling out unfinished technology.
Not unfinished on Apple's side though. Works fine in Europe.
All that is unfinished is the U.S. carrier side, where carriers are dragging feet. I think Apple has done the right thing, which is to release it as is and let carriers start to take support calls based on shoddy or incomplete network support for what is a standard feature is many other countries...
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Even in Europe it's not perfect.
Carriers are obliged to allow users to roam on to their networks within the EU, but many of them offer an inferior service. For example they might limit roaming users to 3G and slow speeds (Verizon limiting to 2G is exceptionally shitty).
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Apple is rolling out unfinished technology.
Not unfinished on Apple's side though. Works fine in Europe.
All that is unfinished is the U.S. carrier side, where carriers are dragging feet. I think Apple has done the right thing, which is to release it as is and let carriers start to take support calls based on shoddy or incomplete network support for what is a standard feature is many other countries...
This is informative, thanks. More examples for "perfect" is the enemy of the good, but leaving each company to implement things on their own led us to almost two decades of randomness. Prior to ubiquitous Android and Apple accounts every phone switch kept making us face the question "will my next phone support my previous one's SIM card so I can carry my contacts without manual regeneration of my address book? will it even have a sim slot?"
With this dual-sim situation we'll have another 2 decades of annoyin
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What you say is true about the U.S. However the EU system of phones supporting dual sims was born of a terrible situation where lots of people might go between different countries often and HAVE to use two sims!! I lived In the Netherlands for a short time, and visiting Germany found I couldn't even roam with a Netherlands sim - I had to have a totally different SIM I bought in Germany, even from the same phone company. Horrible.
I actually prefer the arrangement I have now with T-Mobile, where I have a s
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That's like saying a gaming console is 'unfinished technology' until the last game for it has been released.
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According to the article, Apple is rolling out unfinished technology.
They are doing no such thing. The only new technology in play here is eSIM. The only new feature of eSIM that isn't part of the standard SIM package is remote provisioning. This incidentally is also something that carriers around the world (including the USA) have already implemented.
It's little more than a curios quirk as to why this technology only fails to work in America and yet works just fine in the rest of the world.
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Old radio chipsets with dual sim support used to only 2G connectivity on one of the sims if both were active.
Apple just doesn't want to fork out the extra dollar for better hardware.
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from the article :
"AT&T's and T-Mobile's systems work fine in either the primary or secondary positions, supporting those carriers' voice-over-LTE networks."
so, explain to me how this is because of apple's hardware, but is only broken for verizon.
wtf? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is 2018. How do you not have LTE on both sims?
This was a restriction dual sim phones used to have like 5 years ago
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it does have LTE on both sims. this problem only exists with verizon sims in the united states. at&t and t-mobile sims work with LTE in both primary and secondary positions. verizon sims work with LTE in the secondary position in europe.
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Sounds like the secondary radio doesn't support the LTE bands that Verizon uses?
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US cellphone oligopoly (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's so common that the dual-SIM version of the Moto G phones are cheaper than the single-SIM versions. Nothing else is different in the phones.
It's a feature, not a bug (Score:2)
I looked into getting a dual SIM phone once (Score:1)
I had a job which forced me to use a company provided phone. This resulted in me carrying my personal phone and the work phone. So I looked into the whole dual SIM thing so I only needed one phone.
Basically none of the mobile providers in Australia would supply a dual SIM phone. Looks like they were scared of the competition and didn't want you to have a competitors SIM in your phone with theirs that you purchased through them. The only real option was to buy a phone outright through a non-telco provider an
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printer not activated error code 20 (Score:1)