Apple Says New China Tariffs Would Boost Prices On Some Products (bloomberg.com) 240
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Apple, the world's most valuable company, said proposed U.S. tariffs on $200 billion worth of products imported from China will raise prices for some of its popular consumer goods such as the Apple Watch and AirPods headphones. The Mac mini desktop computer, Apple Pencil stylus accessory for iPads, various chargers and adapters and tooling equipment used to manufacturer and design some products in the U.S. will also be affected, the Cupertino, California-based company told the Office of U.S. Trade Representative in a letter dated Sept 5.
The company said the tariffs would "show up as a tax on U.S. consumers" and "increase the cost of Apple products that our customers have come to rely on in their daily lives." Beyond the core products, Apple said accessories like the HomePod speaker, some Beats speakers, AirPort and Time Capsule internet routers, the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad, and leather cases for the iPhone, iPad, MacBook and Apple Pencil would be affected. It said some of the parts it relies on for product development, including processors and research equipment, would also be hit by the tariffs. On Friday, President Trump said he's prepared to impose tariffs on an additional $267 billion in Chinese imports, which would affect almost every category of consumer goods, according to analysts. He cites unfair trade practices as a reason for the tariffs.
The company said the tariffs would "show up as a tax on U.S. consumers" and "increase the cost of Apple products that our customers have come to rely on in their daily lives." Beyond the core products, Apple said accessories like the HomePod speaker, some Beats speakers, AirPort and Time Capsule internet routers, the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad, and leather cases for the iPhone, iPad, MacBook and Apple Pencil would be affected. It said some of the parts it relies on for product development, including processors and research equipment, would also be hit by the tariffs. On Friday, President Trump said he's prepared to impose tariffs on an additional $267 billion in Chinese imports, which would affect almost every category of consumer goods, according to analysts. He cites unfair trade practices as a reason for the tariffs.
Trump would like that (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Trump would like that (Score:5, Insightful)
Yay Trump! More taxes!
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I was going to say something similar.. The companies just pass the cost along to consumers who are the ones paying this. So, the last tax cuts significantly benefitted the most wealthiest in America with the average American seeing a very minor increase in take-home pay. Now, to pay for that tax cut (because it is really screwing the country over with a massive debt), a new tax is implemented via the tariffs which places the bulk of the onus upon the 99% of Americans who now lose their very minor increase i
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Historians will look back on those China tariffs and call them the 'Wallmart Sales Tax' all targeted at the poor to specifically fund tax cuts for the rich. They are really choking the chicken now though, can't last much longer, infrastructure is already collapsing, pollution has gone insane and blowing money on faked up wars like there is no tomorrow. Really quite sad to watch, all that screaming about nothing as the empire crumbles and eats itself.
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It's the wrong tool, and it won't work. It will, however, make America poorer. Congratulations!
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A trade agreement. Every time trade agreements are instituted, they increase the quantum of trade that is conducted within the bounds of what the trading parties consider acceptable. They also enrich the parties.
It used to be that folks on the right of politics understood these basic facts of economics, and scorned folks on the left for not understanding it.
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You know what's naive? Thinking that China is at material risk of mass starvation in the event of a trade dispute with America. You know what's childish and ignorant? Not only thinking this is the case, but thinking it's an effective lever to win a trade dispute. You know what's even more naive than that? Thinking that China would respond proportionately to the imposition of mass starvation, when other options are plainly on the table and it possesses the world's largest standing army, very capable cyberwar
Re: Trump would like that (Score:3)
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Sure it is. And the tariffs on Canada are about milk. Sorry to break this to you, but it's a tax hike disguised as a means to help the working class poor.
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And incase Murricans haven't figured it out yet: tarrifs are taxes. Yay Trump! More taxes!
Exactly, they are a dead weight cost and simply raise prices for everyone. Un competitive industries get to raise prices and in the end all government is doing is picking winners and losers. Unfortunately, may people I know think they will have no impact on prices and hey, we are hurting China.
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China imposes tarrifs on US-made goods, the US imposes tarrifs on Chinese-made goods, but are the tarrifs even? Last I heard they were not, China's are much higher than the US and most of the threatened tarrif increases approach parity with China.
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China buys US Bonds to manage currency exchange (Score:2)
I wonder how this trade war will end, given that the US borrows a trillion dollars a year from China and others every year just to function.
China needs to buy those US Bonds to manage its currency exchange rate. China is awash in dollars due to the trade imbalance. This would normally depress the value of the dollar in China and increase the value of the yuan. That would increase the price of their services and exports, decrease the price of US imports. Keep in mind, the savings experienced by manufacturing in China is not simply labor costs. It is basically everything is on sale due to the currency manipulations, raw materials, services, etc.
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And? Cut taxes $100, raise them $10. Net taxes, $90 lower.
Response to cuts: complaints about cuts — "people will die [thehill.com] because taxes were cut!!!!”
Response to increases: complaints about increases.
Response to anything: complain about it, seek political advantage by spreading negativity and trying to divide people. (Then freak out when one of the groups you divided people into has more electoral votes than you expected.)
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The idea behind making the rich pay their fair share in taxes, is that money does more economic good when it is spread around.
1. Someone paying taxes doesn't equal money being "spread around". When person A pays taxes, person B doesn't receive a check. And the rich guy was already spreading it around — money is spent and invested, not kept in stacks in a big cartoon vault.
2. Lots of people can think of lots of good and happy things they want money for. If you want to "do more good" with some money, earn the money yourself. "Do more good" doesn't justify stealing from people. And if you think it does, then go out and do
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And this is what our friends on the left are unable to come to terms with. The job of the President is not to be everyone's buddy. Nor is it to go on the nightly talk show circuit and woo everyone with his (or her) smooth rhetoric. The job of the President is to get the economy moving and keep the country safe.
Obama - by every rational and honest measure - did an absolutely shitty job of that. Oh sure he inherited the mess from Bush...blah, blah, blah. Every President inherits the crap from the previous adm
We were already in a trade war. (Score:2, Insightful)
You got the timing backwards. China has had barriers keeping out American products for decades. We were already in a trade war. We are only now starting to fight back.
We accepted the one sided nature of trade with China with the hopes of liberalizing China through interaction. That failed. Its far past time to realize this and to stop tolerating the one sided nature of our trade relationship.
Trump may be an idiot, but he's having a broken clock moment and is correct here.
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We accepted the one sided nature of trade with China with the hopes of liberalizing China through interaction. That failed.
No, we turned a blind eye to it because of the seemingly unlimited access to dirt-cheap labor.
Now that we better understand the true costs of this: rampant IP theft, corporate and military espionage, China as an emerging semi-hostile superpower to rival the US, and yes, a decades long one-sided trade war.... yeah, it's probably time to attempt to rectify the situation. But let's not paint a pretty picture about what the true reasons for opening up factories in China was all about.
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"IP theft" is oxymoron. "Theft" implies that the owner was deprived of the "property", which is impossible with an idea. This line of reasoning is also highly hypocritical considering how much imaginary property America "stole" from England.
The free sharing of ideas benefits everyone and lubricates progress. People believing that it is possible or beneficial to maintain a monopoly on ideas are deluded. The bill will come due, yet it won't be the result of "rampant IP theft", but of your own greed and stupid
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For the 2018 mid-terms the Democrats are running on a platform that included rolling back the Trump Tax Cuts, because Americans desperately want to pay more taxes, but can't figure out how to give more money to the government [treasurydirect.gov] without it being demanded.
Re: Trump would like that (Score:2)
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Only if you don't understand that most smart phones are made in China and this basically raises the prices on all of them. So the only people really being punished is the average consumer.
Agreed. Apple is just getting press but the tariffs will impact goods and industries all across the country; leaving the average consumer, as well as perosn who loses a job because tariffs cause lost sales, holding the bag.
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Name one group Trump doesn't see as an enemy. Hell, he even denigrated Southerners. Aren't those the same crew that voted for him. Why yes, yes it is. The man creates enemies so that he can claim to defend the rest of us from his newly created enemies.
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People who buy Apple products aren't sensitive to price.
What Apple will likely do (there's precedence for when the UK changed VAT a few years ago), is add the exact cost to the purchase price. So if a phone for $799 has additional cost of $28, then the new price will be an unusual $827. Which makes it very visible for everyone that they are paying an extra $28 for something else than their phone.
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If only Silicon Valley hadn't proved this by rampant political bias, censorship, and heavily penalizing conservative websites in search results.
People who buy Apple products aren't sensitive to price. They can easily afford another a few extra bucks for their next purchase.
Except it won't just be Apple; tariffs will impact companies across the board. Some have already announced layoffs or closings as a result because tariffs have made it unprofitable to manufacture in the US.
The mac mini is very old and at an high price now (Score:2)
The mac mini is very old and at an high price now if they jack the price up it better get new hardware
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Has Apple trademarked the phrase 'hardware refreshes'? Because it's another example of slick terminology and they should get right on it.
Apple's prices are unrelated to cost or tariffs (Score:2)
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That said,their price is indeed not always related to production costs. To go further, the price is not always just high due to development and administrative costs. Apple stores can be spacious because the profit margins are high.
We have evidence that apple customers, h
Stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)
The company said the tariffs would "show up as a tax on U.S. consumers"
It's not a mere appearance, tariffs are a tax.
"increase the cost of Apple products that our customers have come to rely on in their daily lives."
If you specifically rely on Apple products for your daily life then you have really fucked up by "putting all your eggs in one basket".
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Pretty sure it's not just Apple products that will be affected. Apple is just the first to make an announcement.
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I bought my new cellphone last week. It was $199.00 which to me seemed like quite a bit. But now I don't expect I'll need to spend more on mobile device hardware for two or more years.
Re: Stupid. (Score:2)
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Yes, tariffs are a tax. But they are a consumption tax - consumers only pay them if they buy the affected products. I thought we were all for consumption taxes instead of income taxes?
That said - "local" companies that cannot afford to stay in business due to a tariff on some of their material inputs means they are producing a good with a very elastic demand curve and these businesses would have had trouble if there was an input price shock due to any cause, not just a tariff. So the tariff in this case we
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Some of those small businesses go out of business not because they can't afford the tariff-ed goods, but because the goods just aren't available. Think of a shortage of aluminum creating a shortage of beer cans with the big breweries locking up the supply. Lots of small breweries go out of business.
Tariffs are great for tilting the playing field.
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Why would a tariff make a good no longer available at all? This is an honest question - if consumers of goods to which a tariff apply are willing to pay the higher cost to have it imported, why would there be a shortage? If there are shortages due to an imposed tariff, what causes the shortage? Is the assumption that the reduction in demand for affected goods will cause the foreign suppliers to simply close up shop?
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Good question. I did see that there was a shortage of beer cans after the tariffs went in. I think there, the aluminium was being shipped across the border so often that the tariffs became way too high. There's been a lot of problems like that, both with aluminium and steel. Steel is interesting as it can cross the border quite a few times which is why Canada is both the biggest exporter and importer of steel with America.
There's also the shock value when unexpected tariffs happen, companies and shippers sl
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I thought we were all for consumption taxes instead of income taxes?
Why would you think that? Consumption taxes are notorious for hitting the poor hardest, for multiple reasons, including that one of the benefits of being rich is that you can save a larger proportion of your income than poor people, who need to spend nearly everything they earn on the basics of daily living.
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Sad times when readers cannot detect sarcasm without it being made explicit...
My personal view is that we should have a wealth-based income tax, not a consumption, income, VAT, or property tax. What I mean by that is income is taxed, but at a rate determined by total asset value owned, not by the income rate. So if you have property but no income, you have no tax (so you don't "lose your house" if you have no income and can't pay property tax); if you have no property but suddenly have income, no tax (so
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If you specifically rely on Apple products for your daily life then you have really fucked up by "putting all your eggs in one basket".
Everyone should have 6 or 8 bizarrely patched baskets that they have to regularly troubleshoot and repair, and that periodically drop a few of your eggs on the ground.
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Yep, okay people, please go out and buy at least two smartphones from different manufacturers. Oh, and be satisfied with the CrapWare MS produces.
Re: Stupid. (Score:2)
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Which country that has the capacity and capability to build iOS devices at volume is Trump *not* targeting with increased tariffs?
Also: if you're going to accuse people of looking stupid, it really helps to not use the phrase "idealistic world".
Of course they must (Score:5, Funny)
We all know that Apple is operating on the thinnest of margins.
greed (Score:2)
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What's the problem ? It increases the exclusivity of Apple products. Everybody's happy.
Re: greed (Score:2)
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I'd be totally fine with that, except it isn't feasible without some central clearing house for prices. I've always said I'm prepared to pay taxes (or prices) proportionate to the money I make. It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the country to do otherwise.
Except that is entirely your choice. If you choose not to do so, what then?
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crap from Apple (Score:3)
Re: crap from Apple (Score:2)
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Yeah, every country should build and consume their own stuff. None of this trade mumbo-jumbo to reduce duplication. What the hell are you people thinking? Only buy American!! Now, about all that electronic equipment built in the U.S. surely you can find it. If not, wait 10 years until the U.S. duplicates China's manufacturing in the U.S. Make America Stupid Again.
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Apple, stop buying from the ChiComms! Buy American!
I'm sure they'd be happy to but first:
Americans, Build American
Americans, Pay for American.
You can't get what you want without those two in place. It's the fundamental reason for your industry's downturn in the first place.
Hands up everyone who is surprised (Score:2)
Raise tariffs, raise taxes, increase regulation, they all get passed on to the consumer.
Tell it to China (Score:2)
Apple would be better off talking to Chinese officials about the need for a trade deal. Or Apple will have to shift some production out of a China.
Apple customers won't be freaking out and calling their congressman about paying an extra $10 to cover tariffs.
Re: Tell it to China (Score:2)
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Why is it on Apple to try to fix a political situation that they didn't cause?
They can either help try to fix it or surrender to it and be a victim of whatever happens.
Also what are the Chinese manufacturers suppose to do other than blanket lower their prices unilaterally as Apple is not the only company affected. The companies that make Apple stuff makes stuff for many American and international companies.
Chinese manufacturers might want to suggest to the government that they negotiate a deal.
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They can either help try to fix it or surrender to it and be a victim of whatever happens.
So then you'd argue Dell and HP and other do the same then? They use some of the same plants Apple uses.
Chinese manufacturers might want to suggest to the government that they negotiate a deal.
So now you're saying is that Chinese manufacturers have to give in to whatever a foreign power says because . . .
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So then you'd argue Dell and HP and other do the same then? They use some of the same plants Apple uses.
Yes.
So now you're saying is that Chinese manufacturers have to give in to whatever a foreign power says because . . .
They should talk about a deal. Because not talking is working out worse than talking. And a deal might work out better than the alternative situation of not making a deal.
If they don't want to pay tariffs, how else can they avoid paying tariffs?
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They should talk about a deal. Because not talking is working out worse than talking. And a deal might work out better than the alternative situation of not making a deal.
. There are deals in place. With this President, no deal is ever safe as he changes his mind on a whim.
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There are deals in place. With this President, no deal is ever safe as he changes his mind on a whim.
That's an interesting perspective, but how does it lead to a course of action?
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Good luck with that. And you will need it, because you have abandoned cause and effect decision-making in favor of name-calling and surrender to the tide of events. The rest of us who haven’t given up will continue to try to improve by making good choices.
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The generally donâ(TM)t have to worry about selling enough soy beans to keep the heat on this winter.
Soy beans are a commodity. If China doesn't buy from US, China buys from Brazil. Europe then can't buy from Brazil, who does Europe buy from? Who has soy beans to sell? US does.
If there's no huge worldwide surplus of soy beans, someone will buy them. Ultimately it doesn't matter who it is. It's like pumping water from the south end of the lake to the north end: the water level stays the same.
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There is a surplus of soybeans, mostly due to subsidies. It's hard to find numbers but this site, https://farm.ewg.org/progdetai... [ewg.org] says $35.6 billion over the last 20 odd years. Seems Brazil also subsidizes their soybeans as well. While small compared to other farmers like dairy, who get 73% of their income from subsidies ($22.2 billion in 2015), it still makes a screwed up market with countries like America needing to dump their produce on other countries, countries that are often more fiscally conservati
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Apple can move small amounts of production around quickly and large amounts of production around slowly. No one should have illusions about it being simple or cheap. Nor should anyone have illusions about it being impossible given enough time.
I have a solution for you Americans (Score:2)
The cost of everything government does (Score:2)
Taxes, Tariffs, the Cost of Fees, Laws and Regulations, etc Why? because a business without a positive profit margin may not have a future.
A business can not manage a cash burn rate forever.
A business will try to keep it's profit margin stable or better yet growing!
Next point, why should Americas markets be open! If a trading partner does not kee
Who Cares? (Score:2)
Good. (Score:3)
Not much else to say there.
Except that perhaps the future is not jeopardized in the least if tech bros buy new phones at a lower frequency and China has less revenue to build a blue water a navy. The cheap stuff from China model — enabled by disposable workers and piratical regulation-free manufacturers — is a shitty way to do things and any impedance we can offer is good. We can't trust China, Indie, et al. to perform our manufacturing without filling the oceans with plastic and emitting tons of illegal CFCs and all the other heinous shit they do, so let us unwind this sad, shameful arrangement.
Just more winning as far as I am concerned.
Only For the USA (Score:2)
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Raise price, then move (Score:2)
Show us the cost (Score:2)
Phone price: $999
Tariff: $100
Price you pay: $1099
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The display cabinet purpose of the TPP was to 'deal with China stealing IP.' The actual purpose was to ratchet down environmental and worker protection laws in the U.S. to 'level the playing field.'
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People will still buy them at the same rate they do now.
Imagine the horror if they did not, upgrading their iPhone every three years instead of two.
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People will still buy them at the same rate they do now.
Imagine the horror if they did not, upgrading their iPhone every three years instead of two.
I am still rockin' my 6 Plus. With 93% capacity still left on my original battery, I see no reason yet to upgrade.
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I got a A$39 battery swap for my iPhone 6 so I am rocking a 100% capacity.
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Good for you.
I will likely take advantage of that offer, too; just because...
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I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to learn that Apple has to raise prices to maintain traditional profits on their devices. Apparently there is no room in the price of an iPhone.
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Um, isn't the whole point of this tariff to try to push companies like Apple to manufacture stuff in the USA instead of China?
Maybe Trump should tweet somebody at Apple and tell them.
Re:Guess what (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, isn't the whole point of this tariff to try to push companies like Apple to manufacture stuff in the USA instead of China?
That is the point. But it is not the result. Tariffs lead to retaliation. It makes no sense for companies to set up separate manufacturing in every country where they do business, rather than in a single efficient factory. Doing so raises prices. The only question is if it is cheaper to just pay the tariff instead.
Apple may decide to assemble some phones in America, but with automation this will create few jobs. Meanwhile, other companies will move operations OUT of America, as Harley-Davidson is already doing. Boeing will likely move some manufacturing to China, to avoid losing the entire Asian market to Airbus. Many semiconductor companies will do the same. Brazilian soybeans have already gone up in price while American soybeans are falling.
All of this leads to inefficiency, fragmentation, despecialization, higher prices, lower wages, and lower living standards.
Re:Guess what (Score:4, Interesting)
That's NOT what happened when tariffs were applied to Japanese cars. Lo and behold, they opened factories in the U.S. As a knock-on effect, Detroit auto makers had to up their game.
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Yea, but cars are large goods that are already expensive to ship overseas. Like Alcohol. In a global make, it was just a matter of time before they moved h e factories here. The tarrifs only protected Detroit automakers from going under,until they could copy the Japanese on business methods..
Most of the goods produced by Silicon Valley in China are of the sightly more portable variety. And since these OEMs are producing products for the entire world, the US is only a very small piece of that pie, so the
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Yes, I'm sure the guys assembling the washing machines all transitioned to lucrative software development jobs!
As for service jobs, they pay less typically. So for them, the standard of living is going down, not up.
But on the bright side, we do burn a lot more polluting bunker oil shipping those washers and dryers to the U.S. and we get to be economically dependent on a sort-of communist country that is only sometimes friendly with us.
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Globalist companies like Apple will do fine just jacking up their prices. I do see lots of small companies having to eat the tariffs though.
Then there is the cost for subsidies but I guess borrowing a few trillion is fine.
Re: Guess what (Score:2)
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Phones are manufactured all over; famously to avoid tariffs Xiaomi manufacture 95% of their phones in India...Apple only have 1% and complain about tariffs there.
Please tell me how your one example means that Samsung, LG, HTC, Huawei, and others do not manufacturer their phones in China.
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Sorry my example was about avoiding tariffs by Chinese Apple manufacturing locally to avoid tariffs. To the benefit of the local economy, market share.
You understand what a "tariff" is, right? The US is proposing a tariff on China made goods that is imported into the US. The tariff is not only US companies. All companies that import goods into the US is affected. Which affects Samsung, LG, HTC, Dell, HP, basically everyone. You Xiaomi example is irrelevant since they don't import into the US.
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Currency manipulation.
Forced technology transfers.
Forced local partnerships.
Predatory pricing.
IP theft.
Industrial espionage.
Subsidized state-owned enterprises.
Export subsidies.
Regulations designed to bar foreign products.
etc...
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This list is an excellent example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
At least five of those practices are not only not unfair trade practices per se, they are also practised extensively by the US, which understandably regards the ability to do these things as the rightful exercise of power by a sovereign nation.
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This list is an excellent example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. At least five of those practices are not only not unfair trade practices per se, they are also practised extensively by the US, which understandably regards the ability to do these things as the rightful exercise of power by a sovereign nation.
Yes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you just demonstrated by failing to consider the scale of the practices involved. Plus you also fail to consider that the sovereign nature of China's actions do not justify keeping our policies open, and that we are talking about a reciprocal response not bombing them.
Reciprocity is at the core of Trump's approach. If you are open to us we will be open to you, if you erect barriers we will erect barriers.
Re: Great (Score:2)
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In the nicest possible way, I don't think it's only your understanding of Apple product pricing that's flawed.
1. Apple commentators sometimes argue that Apple pricing is designed to maximise margins rather than market share. Unsurprisingly, Apple doesn't state its pricing strategy in public. Why would it?
2. In any event, the logical chain between "Apple prices for margin rather than share" and "therefore tax increases shouldn't lead to price increases" doesn't exist. Obviously, input costs affect final pric
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My understanding of Apple product pricing is clearly flawed. Apple have always priced their products on maximising product margins; Not focused on market share.
Are you faulting Apple for not trying to monopolize the entire market on smart phones and instead trying to earn as much profit as they can on the market share they have?
How can this possibly raise the price of any of Apple's hardware?
You do understand how basic accounting works right? If the cost of a good increases, either profits fall or prices get increased.
All I can see is successfully taxing Apple who have worked tirelessly to pay tax nowhere in the world.
Well this is a bold faced lie. Apple does pay taxes. They just pay little taxes in some parts of the world. For example, I would consider the US a part of the world. Do you want to know what Apple paid in corporat
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Yes, as an accountant. I am saying profits will fall.
There's a huge difference between WILL fall and CAN fall.
lol, stop spreading fake news, and calling people liars, Apple deliberate do not pay for hospitals, and welfare...because they legally(sic) can...Ireland was famously forced to collect €13bn in tax from Apple. I hope they Apple pay you. Because their anti American policies are everywhere.
Try to follow me here: 1. Apple HQ is in the US; therefore Apple is under IRS rules . 2. Apple has paid US taxes for its entire existence. 3. The US is part of world. Therefore Apple has paid taxes in the world. As an accountant I find it hard to believe that you haven't read Apple's 10K. Thus YOU LIED.
A company who has become the market leader when faced with the same problem with tariffs by manufacturing in that country is a working example it is possible to not only avoid tariffs, but benefit the local economy, and make it successful. You are saying Apple cannot do it...and I am fine with that.
Again try to follow me here: You are using the example of Xiaomi as an example of a company avoiding tariffs. 1. The tariff situation is between the