As More Users Complain About Poor Keyboard in Current MacBook Pro Lineup, Critics Say Apple Should Consider Recalling the Device (theoutline.com) 212
Last year, a report outlining what it described as a major flaw in Apple's current MacBook Pro lineup became a talking point in the industry. The issue was that a piece of dust could render keys on the MacBook Pro lineup useless, and that Apple had no idea how to fix it. Casey Johnston, writing for The Outline: MacBook Pro's keyboard keys stopped working if a single piece of dust slipped under there, and more importantly, that neither Apple nor its Geniuses would acknowledge that this was actually a problem. Today, Best Buy announced it is having a significant sale on these computers, marking them hundreds of dollars off. Interesting. Still, I'd suggest you do not buy them. Since I wrote about my experience, many have asked me what happened with the new top half of the computer that the Apple Geniuses installed, with its pristine keyboard and maybe-different key switches. The answer is that after a couple of months, I started to get temporarily dead keys for seemingly no reason. Again. Longtime widely respected commentator Jason Snell says, "I know that we Apple-watchers sit around wondering if Apple will release new laptops with new keyboards that don't have these issues, but Apple's relative silence on this issue for existing customers is deafening. If these problems are remotely as common as they seem to be, this is an altogether defective product that should be recalled."
this is Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
So Apple users are going to be buying the next version anyways.
Re:this is Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
Not me, not until they've been out for a year and I can tell there aren't any major issues like this. Even then maybe not. Been an Apple customer since 2010.
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Software, you always wait for the 3.0 release.
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This is bullshit (Score:4, Interesting)
Only the MBP with the touchbar has no "real" escape key, but a touchscreen one. If you don't like it go the the keyboard preferences and set your capslock key to be the escape key. Or buy the other which has a real escape key.
The problem with this keyboard is the fact that it is utterly unreliable. Otherwise it's totally fine and people would long have stopped talking about it at all just as they stopped talking about the chiclet keyboard in the older Macbooks. But you can't start to love a keyboard that stops working every three months and has to repaired by exchanging the upper half of the case for $400 (once it is out of warranty). In the contrary you will start to fear and hate every little bit of it.
Apple just screwed up here and then didn't notice or didn't want to double down and fix it. And this is not just a "you're holding it wrong" thing, it's a real, hard, ugly screw-up and it will come to haunt them. Nobody in his right mind should buy a $2000 laptop that is a write-off after the warranty runs out.
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Every repair gives another two years warranty/guaranty by law in the EU.
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Only the MBP with the touchbar has no "real" escape key, but a touchscreen one. If you don't like it go the the keyboard preferences and set your capslock key to be the escape key. Or buy the other which has a real escape key.
Better yet, stay the hell away from Apple crap.
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LOLWUT.
Look at just about any computer keyboard produced in the last 3 decades (or more).
Not only do they have an Escape key, it's the only fucking key that gets its own island!
It's fucking important.
Re:this is Apple (Score:5, Funny)
just buy a $50 lightning cable attached to an escape key.
it's the apple way
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just buy a $50 lightning cable attached to an escape key.
it's the apple way
Plus a dongle you'll need for all the other cables and attachments you need to use.
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You actually do have an escape key, but now it's on the weird LED touch bar. I never realized how often I touched the esc key without actually pressing it until I got a new MacBook. Apparently I use it to orient my hands when finding the number keys, a habit I now have to break.
I disliked the keyboard at first, but after a week it felt natural. I hated the new track pad because it gave me a lot of trouble not detecting "right clicks", but it loosened up and now we're friends again.
I'm still not fond of t
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That's not a key in the sense that a key is usually equated to some sort of mechanical switch. That's a capacitive button or touchpanel.
Over yet another poor choice in Apple keyboard design. An aside; I still don't know why people don't consider the human input and output portion the most important design aspect of computers. Instea
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A courageous cult.
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Having used one of these abominations for three months now (thanks to someone stealing my previous MacBook Pro), I can now speak from experience on the matter. The problem is not the lack of the escape key. That's a red herring. There are actually three problems: the position of the escape key, the lack of pressure sensitivity on the touchbar, and the undocumented modifier-key-opens-System-Preferences behavior..
The position of t
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Oh, and the new keyboard itself is fine, as far as I can tell. I had a key fail already, but it was just like every previous Mac laptop I've ever owned; you can fix it by pressing at one end of the key and stroking the length of the key, depressing firmly, and repeating until whatever crumb got in there disintegrates. Then the key works again.
I thought the old keyboard felt better, and my typing accuracy does seem lower with this design, but that could be entirely my imagination.
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you can fix it by pressing at one end of the key and stroking the length of the key, depressing firmly, and repeating until whatever crumb got in there disintegrates. Then the key works again.
Thank you for convincing me to never buy anything made by Apple, ever.
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--WHODAFUQ at Apple decided it would be a grand idea to remove the ESCAPE KEY from the Apple keyboard???
Probably the same genius who removed the Del key, the PgUp+PgDown keys, the Home key, the End key...
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You use FN + the arrows for that. DEL is FN + backspace.
But the home and end key on Macs never worked as expected anyway.
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Bottom line: Typing code on a Mac feels totally retarded.
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Bottom line: Typing code on a Mac feels totally retarded.
And if you connect an external keyboard, try not ever to hit home or end... God, writing on a Mac makes me swear. You have to learn special shortcuts for copy/pasting a line, instead of using the natural emergent combos that work everywhere else. And Mac's doesn't even have home and end keys anymore, becaus they way Apple insist on mapping them is retarded.
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That's not a key. That's software bullshit.
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Not all applications make use of the space bar, enter key, backspace key, caps lock key, tab key, shift key, or any number key. Or any letter key, for that matter. What other keys do you think should be removed because they aren't being used by 100% of applications?
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As I said, the escape key WAS NOT REMOVED. It's always there in the Touch Bar
Excuse my ignorance, but is the "Touch Bar" an escape key? If you turn off the power to the machine, and look at the keyboard, is there a key labeled "Esc?" Because, if not, then it sounds like they removed the escape key and replaced it with something called a "Touch Bar", which based on the fact that it is not called an "Escape Key", sounds like it is something other than an escape key.
When I'm in an FPS you seen to think that "W" should not move me forward, but instead should type forward because no key should be programmatically definable. What a moron!
Ooh, that's a fancy strawman you've built there. Impressive. What a moron!
I'll bet you REALLY hate those keyboards with all programmable labels on keys!
No, I don't. What I do hate are arbitrary
Re:this is Apple (Score:4)
Actually I got cash in hand, waiting to see if the MacBook Air gets replaced by something with a crappy keyboard or not. If it does, I'm buying an old MacBook Air at a deep discount once the replacement is available.
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Actually as someone else mentioned, the (lack of) travel on the new keyboards is so bad that I might buy a MacBook Air anyway.
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That's a super subjective call. There are plenty of people that love the keyboard EXCEPT for the part where it's so badly engineered that a single piece of dust renders it useless, and when Apple replaces it, they have to replace the whole top half of the laptop.
I have a theory that this was tested under clean-room conditions at all times, and even employees that got to take it home were probably treating it with kid gloves. Apple should say sorry, offer trade-ins or replacements and move forward. It sounds
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It's already costing them replacement parts, repair time and a lot of people not buying any of their new laptops because of the problem.
The old keyboard, like the one used on the MacBook Air, previous MacBook Pros and their old aluminium wired keyboards are really, really though and still have a small enough travel compared to regular keyboards. But no, mr.designer-in-chief wanted to shave 2mm of the keyboard thickness because a thin keyboard is more important than a usable one.
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This keyboard is like the Titanic. It was never supposed to be susceptible to dust at all because of its design...but once the dust ignores the intentions of the designer, it utterly destroys the keyboard. :P
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How about an LG Gram?
- Dual SSD slots
- RAM socket
- Easily removable battery (no glue)
- Plenty of full size USB ports
- Thunerbolt port
- SD card reading and headphone jack
- Good performance and battery life
You could make it a hackintosh if you really need MacOS.
Re: this is Apple (Score:2)
Yes I really need MacOS
Re:this is Apple (Score:5, Funny)
This is Apple... So clearly they are holding it wrong.
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The corollary is that people who don't have any Apple gear are going to be coming out of the woodworks to complain how "Horrible" the imagined "problem" is and how "Apple has lost it's way since Steve Jobs died".
Re:this is Apple (Score:4, Funny)
Sent ffrom my 2016 15 inch MacBook Pro.
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You're not like me. None of the Macs in our household have the keyboard implicated & I never denied that some people may have a problem.
The imagined problem may or may not affect more than a tiny minority of rMBP users with that keyboard. As Apple has excellent product support, if there's really a widespread problem, there'll be a program announcement like there was for my 2012 rMBP battery that was replaced gratis (https://www.macrumors.com/2017/10/13/apple-free-battery-repair-memo/).
My point wasn't th
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My point wasn't that the problem doesn't exist, it is that many Apple Haters who don't even own a Mac will claim that it is more of a problem than it really is.
Eh?
how "Horrible" the imagined "problem" is
Imaginary things do not exist, that's why they're imaginary. That's exactly what your point was. And also:
Apple has lost it's way since Steve Jobs died
Looking around my Apple-filled home, I don't think it's the people who don't own any Apple gear who say this. I say it and, well, like I said -- Apple-filled home.
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No, this problem really is horrible. Do you have one? For how long? Do all keys work? If they do, just wait a bit.
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White Macbook: 8 years, MBP: 10 years, rMBP: 6 years, Macbook Air: 5 years, Retina MacBook: 3 years. All still working in our household without any keyboard issues.
None of the 5 PC laptops used over the same period here work anymore except for a noisy old Lenovo with an XP only USB media capture dongle I dredge out to digitise VHS tapes who's trackpoint & keyboard are now so flakey that I need to use an external keyboard+mouse.
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This has been going on for 15+ years, well back into the Jobs era.
Remember the first unibody Macbooks that weren't really unibody? They were actually two bits of metal stuck together with glue... And the glue was right where the fans vented hot air, and under a lot of strain from the hinges pulling on it. Maybe you can remember what happened.
So they made the next generation a real unibody, but the hinges were made out of really thin flat metal. Most laptop hinges are an L shape for strength, but Apple must
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When compared to the problems encountered by PC makers at the same time, Macs were generally much better built.
PC Laptop issues:
- Uncountable plastic bodies that flexed and broke (you didn't need that power socket did you?),
- Hinges that wore out after 6 months (here, use these books to prop up the screen so that it doesn't slam shut),
- The screen wiring that was just a bunch of poorly insulated wires passing through a too small hole where they eventually rubbed together and shorted out (oh well you can alw
I lucked out by hating other "brave" features (Score:2)
I lucked out that Apple decided to be "brave" by adding that Touch bar and added too few USB-C ports while stripping the rest out. Otherwise I would've upgraded from my MacBook Pro 2014 and been hosed with that keyboard bug to boot.
Apple Still Has The Culture Of Steve Jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
.... And because of that there is zero chance that there will be a recall. Because that would be an admission that they've done something wrong. And they rarely admit that they've done something wrong or apologize (the Apple Maps fiasco or the "I Am Root" fiasco being the only two times that I can think of that they've said sorry for something). That's something that Jobs preached pretty aggressively.
What's more likely to happen is that they will come out with a new keyboard design at WWDC in June and call it an "innovation" and shove it into every notebook they make to make this go away over the long term. And they'll likely come out with a repair extension program for this crappy keyboard if they have to so that the bad press goes away over the short term. .
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A spell cheque doesn't catch 100% off problems.
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I see you have dust in your shift, o, r, and spacebar keys. And your spell-checker doesn't fully function. You might want to go talk to Apple about that.
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More to the point, I'm not correcting the key-doubling here to demonstrate the issue, which is that I shouldn't have to rely on a spell checker to ffix a hardware design fflaw in a $2000 computer.
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I'm sure that if you were willing to spend a bit more than $2000, Apple can set you up with a computer that doubles all consonants instead of just the Fs. And maybe has those ugly shift keys moved to software that toggles them by watching your face for eye blinks.
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Re:Apple Still Has The Culture Of Steve Jobs (Score:5, Interesting)
It sickens me that people deffend this as though it's the user's ffault. I can't tell you how dust got under my ff key; I don't eat at this computer and I have a silicone membrane over the keyboard; iff anything, I'd expect dust to have worked its way under one of the outer keys, but not one in the middle row. And yes, I normally correct the double ff's myselff, but I'm not doing it here to make a point: when I can buy a $5 keyboard and not have to correct ffor its fflawed design, I sure as ffuck shouldn't have to correct ffor the design of the keyboard in my $2000 laptop. Period.
That said, going back through my posting history, I'm noticing a pattern. Most of my posts with typos were typed on Apple keyboards; I can easily pick out posts made ffrom one off my PCs, or using a non-Apple external keyboard on one off my Macs, because those posts will have no typos. Now I'm wondering how long Apple's keyboards have actually been the problem.
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dead keys here too (Score:5, Interesting)
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Very often. I can rarely type a password with my normal typing speed and have it come right. The keyboard just misses strokes. I am using an external bluetooth Logitech. I wish I had chosen a surface book instead of Macbook pro when my new workplace gave me an option.
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--I just got a used 2008-era iMac; really, a cheap generic 3-button mouse works fine with it. No reason to pay the Apple premium for mice.
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In fact, for me, it was the shift key. It went totally dead, and then came to life a couple weeks later. Quite annoying if you want to type anything with proper capitalization.
Dust is the least problem (Score:3)
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That's what I felt when I first got a new MacBook Pro (I develop software for a client on it, so it's a requirement). Weirdly though, going back to the previous MacBook Pro with the previous generation keyboard that now feels very imprecise and wobbly by comparison.
It's odd what you get used to and start to feel is 'normal'.
Re:Dust is the least problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed completely. I didn't think I'd like this keyboard at all. I *loved* the previous generation. Then my wife bought one of the new Macbooks. I tried the keyboard and was surprised at how much I liked it. I went to the store to try one of the MBP keyboards since it's a little different (more key travel mainly). Typed on it for 10 or 15 minutes. Completely converted. I didn't buy one for a while after that but I was confident in my choice when the time came.
Now when I type on an old style keyboard I'm the same as you. I find it squishy and messy by comparison. Though it's still miles better than any other keyboard I've tried.
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Actually, that thing might make a person grateful for any keyboard that is not that one..
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Meh. I learned to type on an ancient manual typewriter. Even after 35 years on CRT terminals and PC keyboards, I *STILL* pound the keys. Muscle memory is a strong thing.
And heck, some of those CRT terminals required some serious keystroke pressure. Ever use an ADM-3A?
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The problem with the aquarius kb was not that it needed heavy pressure, more that it was finicky about registering anything at any pressure. The keys mushed laterally somehow. And was small for even a kids hands. An abomination.
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I cut my teeth on this one [oldcomputers.net]. I even still have one in a box.
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--Oh man, I used to have one of those... Programmed my own stuff (including a text-based Voltron game) in Extended Basic and saved it to an AM/FM radio with cassette tape. It had sprites and we had no idea how shitty it was, 'twas all we had and we liked it :)
Corsair Keyboards (Score:2)
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I used to have an great actual buckling spring keyboard back in the mid 90s/early 00s. Was really amazing. Felt great. Loved the sound. Sadly it was an old PS/2 keyboard without the windows/cmd key so it couldn't come with me to the modern era. Also my office-mates hated how loud it was, haha.
One of the main reasons I love the last couple generations of full-sized plug in keyboards is how flat they are. They aren't very high off the desk and they're at a very shallow angle -- the very latest version ev
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My work laptop was upgraded to a new MacBook Pro after it started reporting Bluetooth failures. I absolutely hate this new keyboard with practically zero key travel.
My error rate has gone way up with many more transposed letters than before. My typing maxes out around 120 WPM and this keyboard is just not good for me. I prefer mechanical keyboards, but the old MacBook Pro's keyboard was better than this new one.
Recall? (Score:5, Funny)
Ridiculous. People are just typing wrong.
Apple recall stuff (Score:4)
because users complaint.. haha, never in 10 years!
They just have to buy the next version, anyway, they will doing it.
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My late 2011 MBP was recalled, and new motherboard 18 months after the extended warranty ran out, due to the Radeon GPU issues. Walked into the Apple Store, they swapped it out no questions asked. On a laptop that was almost old enough to go to kindergarten.
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My late 2011 MBP was recalled and repaired for free on two occasions, both after the guarantee expired. Also, on both occasions they replaced other components 'just to be sure', so I ended with a mostly new computer. Unfortunately, they removed the hard drive in one case, explaining that it didn't meet their standards. They then installed a better drive and gave me the old, still working, one so I could back it up. On another occasion they removed some RAM they didn't like and replaced it.
So that was for th
It's just the weak spot of this line (Score:3)
Most laptop lines have a weak spot. And it's the keyboard for the 12" MacBook and the MacBook Pro. Loads of people experience no problems whatsoever, but some do. I've had a Dell which had an old-fashioned harddrive that heated up the left palm rest. Very annoying. But not annoying enough to get rid of the machine.
Now I'm sure that some really have defective keyboards, where it didn't have anything to do with dirt or something. That sucks of course. But in general I'd say: simply not eat in front of this laptop, and keep a can of pressured air at home. In my personal experience, it solves the issue.
Not trying to be an Apple apologist or something, there really is a problem. But unless you have the bad luck of a real mechanical defect, it's easily solved.
Re:It's just the weak spot of this line (Score:5, Insightful)
The new Macbook keyboard is a deliberately created new feature. Apple came up with a new keyboard mechanism which reduces key travel in order to try to make the laptop a little thinner (like laptops need to be any thinner). It bombed, plain and simple. What's the point of making the laptop 3mm thinner if it forces you to add a can of compressed air to your laptop bag?
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"Weak spot" in a MBP keyboard is an understatement:
1. Given that the keyboard is mechanically the most physically abused piece of hardware on the Mac (now that we have no spinning HDs), it ought to have the military tank ruggedness of the "Selectric" keyboard.
2. Watertightness is an absolute must, regardless of what Jony and his champagne tastes has to say. Why? Spills happen. The worst case I saw was a glass of wine set down over a foot away from the MBP. The wine sloshed and sent a single drop of wi
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I have a late-2011 17" MPB, and one of the things that went out over the years was the keyboard. I was able to find a replacement online for only $15, and while it worked better than the bad one (on which ASD and F would no longer work, and other keys too), the keyboard wasn't very well made, and some of the function key row are very hard to use (not entirely a bad thing), the space bar would get stuck down (not sure when it stopped having problems), and the left shift doesn't always work from certain finge
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Most laptop lines have a weak spot. And it's the keyboard for the 12" MacBook and the MacBook Pro. Loads of people experience no problems whatsoever, but some do. I've had a Dell which had an old-fashioned harddrive that heated up the left palm rest. Very annoying. But not annoying enough to get rid of the machine.
I'm not buying that as Dell have always placed the HDD's on the bottom of the case to facilitate quick replacement.
Also that hard drive casings do not get hot enough to cause discomfort. They're expressly designed not to, I once had a WD 10K RPM VelociRaptor hard drive, they were called "VelociHeaters" because of their radiator like properties, even these could be removed after running for hours by the naked hand.
Perhaps a little humility is in order, as in (Score:2)
Built like Ferraris, recalled like any other carmaker out there.
There i a joke in there omewhere. (Score:5, Funny)
But really I jut can't ee it.
Worship of thinness (Score:2)
Hopefully we can finally get over the quest to make the thinnest, lightest machine possible at the expense of power and features. The keyboard on the 2012 model was just fine. Let's go back to that.
I don't get the hate (Score:4, Informative)
I've had mine for over a year (13" touchbar MBP).. and I don't baby this keyboard. It's fucking filthy.
I love the low key travel. I don't feel any strain in my fingers or wrists. It's *by* far the best laptop keyboard I've ever used. The previous winner was the previous style of MBP keyboards.
No stuck keys, no increase in typing errors. Just love it all around.
Now this isn't to say that people aren't having problems. I'm just adding my anecdote (and a few others who I know who have this same machine and love the keyboard) to the other anecdotes.
Outsource it to Dell (Score:2, Funny)
Recently switched from Apple (Score:2)
Apple used to build great computers, however they have then moved onto building great "products", which looks nice, but leave the functionality and usability as afterthoughts. Because of this I have left behind my older MacBook Pro. They seem to have no proper upgrade alternative in that product line.
The new "Pro" does not even have a proper keyboard, dust issues aside, the keys themselves are not fun to type with (I tried using friend's machine). They are too thin giving minimal tactile feedback. There is
What? Apple fail to publicly acknowledge a bug? (Score:2)
I've been down this path before with my MBP - after the wireless connection wouldn't connect, they ended up replacing the entire motherboard. Now, they're having similar issues with the keyboard, and - silence.
They need to go back to the earlier keyboard designs and start replacing them as warranty repairs start rolling in. Frankly, the older keyboard designs would be a massive upgrade. I doubt they will do this.
Apple Keyboards (Score:5, Interesting)
They still call the *Backspace* key *Delete* so they obviously don't care about keyboards. :)
The Next MacBook Pro Model... (Score:2)
...won't have a keyboard at all. By remove it, Apple says it'll now be waterproof.
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...won't have a keyboard at all. By remove it, Apple says it'll now be waterproof.
And lose the money from "repairing" machines broken by Apple's bad engineering?? Never..
I, for one, really like my MacBook Pro (Score:2)
My 2015 MacBook Pro, that is. It's not perfect - heck, it's been in the shop twice when the trackpad + keyboard ribbon cable failed. Which is, not coincidentally, when I've had an extended chance to use the newer iteration of the model.
The first time the ribbon cable on my 2015 MBP failed, for some reason the Apple Store had trouble getting a replacement to them (perhaps this is a common problem) - so I was without that computer for about 2.5 weeks. During this time, I was using a loaner 2016 MacBook Pro -
Keyboard smorgasboard... (Score:2)
...SteveJobs long ago stopped trying to please everyone instead abstracting his "slim" aesthetic form factor designs over function.
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Apple will probably kill the keyboard next (Score:2)
Why are you using a keyboard when you could use a tablet? Who needs a computer? Just sip content on a phone or tablet.
Using a keyboard for heavy work, man -- who needs a PC any more?
No recall for you. (Score:2)
Ok, the Lord knows I have zero love for Apple. I haven't touched an Apple thing since 2008 when I was given a Macbook Pro from work.
But you purchased the laptop, if you didn't like the keyboard, why didn't you return it? Why didn't you check it out at Apple store before buying it ? As far as I know, the keyboards are not breaking. They are just extremely shitty.
And therefore the whole "Recall" idea is BS.
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They also weren't dumb enough to make the antenna part of the exterior case, causing a hand holding it normally to both block the signal AND detune the antenna by changing its electrical length.
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They also weren't dumb enough to make the antenna part of the exterior case, causing a hand holding it normally to both block the signal AND detune the antenna by changing its electrical length.
Actually, I had a Nokia feature phone where the antenna was connected to a small metal nameplate on the back of the case. The manual mentioned you shouldn't touch it while using the phone as it would effect reception. It was right in the middle upper-body, so if you held the phone with your index finger extended up the body for stability it would rest on it (kinda like where they put fingerprint sensors on smartphone backs nowadays).
But at least it was just that one small rectangle on the back. Not all the
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