Washington Bill Makes It Illegal To Sell Gadgets Without Replaceable Batteries (vice.com) 384
Jason Koebler writes: A bill that would make it easier to fix your electronics is rapidly hurtling through the Washington state legislature. The bill's ascent is fueled by Apple's iPhone-throttling controversy, which has placed a renewed focus on the fact that our electronics have become increasingly difficult to repair.
Starting in 2019, the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
Starting in 2019, the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
wording (Score:3)
Re: wording (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem with complex issues are that they're require even more complex language to establish surrounding rules.
Both sides play upon this matter but the fact is, the consumer typically loses these arguments against armies of corporate lawyers.
Re: wording (Score:5, Insightful)
From TFS: "Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
There is some ambiguity, but the intent seems pretty obvious.
IMO, this legislation is something we've needed for a long time. Musical birthday cards should get a pass. But expensive consumer electronics should not be treated as disposable items.
Re: wording (Score:5, Funny)
Musical birthday cards should get a pass.
If this legislation causes the end of musical birthday cards, it would be the most effective law passed this year.
Re: wording (Score:5, Funny)
With e-ink, cards could be used many times. Just think of changing the cover art to a new JPG or even GIF. Next we allow the card licensee to sing and record or buy downloaded music from the card store. Of course your card will have internet access to assure no pirated content was used in the "redeployment" of the card... can't have you singing any Stevie Wonder hits without paying for them. But you could piggyback on the Internet of Cards by placing current sports scores or a favorite news feed on the back or even inside.
Sure, in awhile Apple will produce the Must Have iCards (and change them every six months) but two thirds of us can just keep handing the same cards back and forth every year.
/sarcasm (I Hope)
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I have replaced batteries in a musical birthday card. It wasn't easy but my granddaughter loved it until the batteries ran down so I replaced them. Yes, it was irritating but worth it for the dancing hamster.
Re: wording (Score:5, Insightful)
From TFS: "Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
There is some ambiguity, but the intent seems pretty obvious.
Uh, no it's not, and this won't change a damn thing. Using the term "independent repair provider" even dictates that repairs will still not be something an end-user is authorized or allowed to do, and implies that consumers will still have to pay someone to change out a battery. No one "repairs" a battery, they get replaced, which is all consumers are asking for. We used to have removable batteries. Greed infected design, and now we do not.
Enough of the ambiguity. Enough of the bullshit. Word it in black and white terms. Electronic devices with rechargeable batteries should be designed in such a way that they are easily replaceable by the end user. See? It's not hard to remove the ambiguity and put a stop to relentless greed that continues to fuck over the consumer.
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"No one "repairs" a battery"
Bullshit. I repair lead-acid car batteries all the time.
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"No one "repairs" a battery"
Bullshit. I repair lead-acid car batteries all the time.
I wasn't talking about lead-acid batteries. I wasn't even talking about EV battery replacement.
We both know what this bill is targeting, which is where 90% of the problem lies; handheld electronic devices.
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Re: wording (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the threshold for 'easily'?
Like, without tools? That means all our phones will be bulky again. I don't want a phone like that. I hated that design, and I'll continue to hate it. I don't mind the possibility that I'll have to take my phone into a shop so someone can disassemble it and pop in a new battery any more than I mind taking my car into the shop so I can have something repaired. If I wanted to learn how to do those things, I would, and indeed, I can. iFixit makes kits so you can do it yourself, and people do it.
So I don't know that your wording makes it any better, except to possibly require companies to make phones that I feel are terrible by design.
I get that we don't agree on the design angle, but I don't want it legislated out of existence.
Re: wording (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago, my son's android tablet was having battery issues. It was 2 years old so the vendor wasn't supporting it. They offered to take it for about $60, examine it, and let me know what was happening to it. Then, I could choose to fix it (for more money though they "graciously" would deduct that $60 initial payment from the cost) or I could have it sent back. They couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't arrive back factory reset with all of my son's game data erased.
I found the battery online for about $15 and tools to do the repair for about another $10. Unfortunately, I needed to use the tools to pry the case open and I just couldn't get it done. I went to a repair shop and they were able to pry it open and replace the battery with the one I bought for $25. Even though I "wasted" money on the tools, I still got the tablet fixed for less than what the manufacturer wanted.
Re: wording (Score:4, Informative)
Define "bulky"?
Lumia 950XL : 8.1 mm 3350 user serviceable mah battery
iPhone X : 7.7 mm 2750 permanent battery
I also get to mix up the design of my phone with new backings without adding any bulk like a phone case adds.
0.4mm is 4 sheets of paper.
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But I imagine it's fine if you just need a commonly available small screwdriver.
Re: wording (Score:5, Insightful)
which is all consumers are asking for.
I'm assuming you're basically talking about Cell Phones, if you are not, please take the rest as issues I have with this law anyways.
1) If Consumers DEMANDED replaceable batteries in phones (or other devices) they would be BUYING them. If your choice was between iPhone 8 and something like an LG V20, they would abandon iPhones for LG. The problem is, that they want an iPhone first, battery second. THEY made the choice, and voted with their money. If Apple was losing BILLIONS to people who WANT removable batteries as a PRIMARY feature, they would make an iPhone with Removable Battery.
2)If Consumers DEMANDED replaceable batteries over other features like Water Proof/Resistant devices, then they would be BUYING them. Since it is makes devices MORE expensive to have WaterProof and Replaceable batteries than one or the other, and people are choosing lesser expensive single option devices (Waterproof, no replaceable battery vs replaceable battery and don't drop in the pool) the the market has spoken.
3) In almost ALL categories, there ARE options for having those features, while giving up others, and the relative price points for each are such that the Market is making cost/feature analysis as part of their buying choices is already available.
Conclusion: A law like the one proposes removes choice and replaces it with draconian rules that the Market has ALREADY rejected with the voting dollars. This is the problem with the whole "There ought to be a law" people, is that they want what they want, but are UNWILLING to do it for themselves. This is the choice of the Consumer, not the state.
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Re: wording (Score:4, Insightful)
So, Lawmakers from Washington have outlawed Microsoft's entire Surface line. I'm sure Microsoft will be thrilled.
Re: wording (Score:4, Insightful)
i dunno, i'd rather government take a step back from directly interfering in how companies design and market their products -- obviously with health, safety, and fraud concerns withstanding.
With regulations like this where does it end? It sucks that 'voting with your dollars' doesn't really work when all the manufacturers pull the same shenanigans; but having mommy government step in to dictate these things is an even worse idea. It's feel good legislation at its finest, but real world consequences intended or not are being ignored.
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Stores in Vancouver BC and Portland OR are going to LOVE this thing if it passes.
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However, if the tech companies comply, WA businesses will dominate the online sales market (at least until the 'WA models' become more widespread).
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Did they start putting epoxy on those coin cell batteries? I used to take those cards apart and make Red Boxes out of them... in altoids tins of course.
Re: wording (Score:5, Funny)
Re:wording (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, it is that kind of very vague language in law (especially more and more in today's laws coming thought State and Federal), that are so broadly worded, that it can cause problems, some in VERY distinct ways.
Another example of this, is the ATF about to redo regulations that pretty much define "machine" gun which is written as law. They are about to basically make new law (saving our congress critters from actually having to go on record and vote)....but essentially, they are being pressured into going after bump stocks.
The problems is, they aren't specifically mentioning bump stocks or precisely defining them. They are trying to broadly work it as "any device that increases the rate of fire". Well for one thing, there is not defined base level of "rate of fire".
That could mean ANY modification to a semi-auto weapon, like just putting in a lighter trigger for competition shooting...that allows you to increase your rate of fire. Hell, your finger could be considered a problem, in that it is pretty easy to hold an AR loosely enough to let the recoil hit your finger quickly and fire like you can with a bump stock..
To that note...high capacity magazines could come under fire, in that having larger capacities allow you to fire faster since you don't have to change more often.
That's just one example....but we need to force our legislators to quit working laws so broadly. Make them more precise, and when a new thing comes along, rather than trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole, come up with a new damned law, or pass real legislation to change things.
Don't just word it broadly, and then allow some UNELECTED bureaucratic enforcement agency define what things are.
Just because you may like it one way, doesn't mean it won't come to bite you in the ass on another topic you do care about.
Re:wording (Score:4, Insightful)
The bill literally contains 20 lines spent defining "fair and reasonable". Can you elaborate on why you consider it "vague".
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May as well learn ab
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There is a well established standard around the word 'reasonable' in common law:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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On older the battery could be swapped by the user in seconds. Come back to that please!
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What's "reasonable"?
That will be adjudicated, when necessary. Which is sensible.
E.g. what about some one-off cheap $1 toy? Is selling that illegal without an easily replaceable battery? There are going to be edge cases.
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It is *far* more important that selling such toys without a volume control be recognized as a crime against humanity than that the (^&*(&Y battery be replaceable . . .
hawk
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I can agree with sentiment. The battery in an iPhone is replaceable. On my iPhone you just remove 2 screws and then pry the glass front off. The battery is right there to be unplugged and replaced. Maybe not something that everyone would feel confident doing -- but the "phone repair guy" in the Mall can do it "cheap."
That sounds reasonable to me.
Cars not included (Score:5, Informative)
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Yes, not being able to replace my car battery without paying a dealer has been *so* much hassle in my life.
(OK, I'll grant that 80s and 90s front drive Cadillacs are a pain, as you have to take off a bar or a plate to get it out [or even lift the back seat on the Deville!])
hawk
LMAO (Score:2)
On removeable batteries (Score:5, Interesting)
The last time this came up on Slashdot, the objection to forcing replaceable batteries was that having fixed batteries allows for unusual battery shapes and less concern regarding seals so that engineers can design thinner phones.
You know what? Not good enough. If it's so important to have such a thin phone, then the manufacturers need to be required by law to take back their product at the end of its life cycle and REcycle.
I'd argue this would be an expensive but good idea anyway, because 'the environment' isn't just a thing for tree-huggers, we all need it.
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If it's so important to have such a thin phone, then the manufacturers need to be required by law to take back their product at the end of its life cycle and REcycle.
They are required to where I live.
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Because American consumers are no longer functionally capable of not consuming. They can't speak with their wallets and simply not buy an iPhone, that's too hard.
Re:Umm, why can't I decide what I want in my phone (Score:5, Insightful)
To protect everyone else who is not an idiot. That's why.
I feel sorry for you that the stupid government doesn't allow you to buy toasters that burn down your house. Or drugs that poison you. Or foods that make you sick. It's such a shame really. But if you put your mind to it, I'm sure you can find ways to burn down your house, poison yourself or make yourself sick despite the nanny government trying to protect the rest of us from being f***ked by corporations.
Waterproof doesn't require non-replaceable battery (Score:3, Informative)
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I'll second that. My waterproof Camera has a replaceable Battery AND SD card !!! And a bunch of cable access ports (USB etc).
It's simply equipped with a Waterproof Door !! I carry several batteries with me to swap during the day and charge them at night.
Same with my waterproof Watch -- the back screws off and has a gasket. Which I have to open every 8 years to replace the battery.
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Garmin used to have waterproof GPSes with replaceable batteries like the Legend [garmin.com]. OK, the batteries themselves would get wet, but that's a minor issue.
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Funny I have a diving point and shoot with a removable battery and it's far more waterproof than a phone. Something that does both is not hard to design.
Re:On removeable batteries (Score:5, Insightful)
I picked a phone for being waterproof, and I think all of those have non-removable batteries. Waterproof was more important to me than a removable battery.
Why should my choice be illegal because you don't like it? Are there no phones with removable batteries? I'm failing to see the issue here.
Because (a) you can have both, it's just the manufacturers have no reason to do that as it means they can sell you a whole new phone when the battery degrades, and (b) we live in the same world, and waste is a thing that affects all of us.
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I picked a phone for being waterproof, and I think all of those have non-removable batteries. Waterproof was more important to me than a removable battery.
Why should my choice be illegal because you don't like it? Are there no phones with removable batteries? I'm failing to see the issue here.
The Galaxy S5 has a user replaceable battery and has the same IP67 rating as the Pixel 2 and the iPhone 8. I just had to replace a screen on a Nexus 6 which has the back glued on and it has no IP rating. Your argument holds no water (pun intended).
You're too stupid to make informed decisions! (Score:2, Insightful)
You're not smart enough to make an informed decision yourself!
You can't decide whether a completely waterproof design is worth having a non-replaceable battery!
We're the government! And we know what's best for you!
Now, pay a ludicrous tax on your soda [marketwatch.com], and no, you can't have a drinking straw! [latimes.com]
Re:You're too stupid to make informed decisions! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah. Heaven forbid that we have clean air. Clean water. Television sets that don't explode. Food that isn't poison. Quaak cures that kill people. Building codes. And on and on with government regulations!
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no, you can't have a drinking straw!
MOD PARENT DOWN for lies.
The link says precisely the opposite: if you ask for a plastic straw you can have one. Personally I'm entirely happy with the government forcing companies to not socialise the costs, while provatising the profits.
Tech companies are in trouble (Score:2)
Try easily replacing the battery in an iPhone, iPad, Kindle, MacBook, etc.
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I can do an iPhone in about 10 minutes. I'm sure someone who does it regularly could do it in 5. Seems easy enough.
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"I can do an iPhone in about 10 minutes. I'm sure someone who does it regularly could do it in 5. Seems easy enough."
'Easy' would be 5 seconds, not minutes.
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Try easily replacing the battery in an iPhone, iPad, Kindle, MacBook, etc.
I don't think it will affect tech design tooooo much. While TFA picked up on the battery part, the thrust of the bill is more about compelling OEMs to supply the necessary information and parts to enable independent repair shops to fix things. I.e. to not exclude competition by hoarding information and parts. So I think the test of "reasonableness" of repair would really be framed in the context of, "is it designed such that it is reasonable for a trained, professional, and informed private repair shop to d
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Try easily replacing the battery in an iPhone, iPad, Kindle, MacBook, etc.
I-phones are easy, Kindles are too, I've done both multiple times.. Never tied any of the rest. Seriously, replacing a battery in an I-Phone may LOOK daunting, but it's not that hard.
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The new MacBooks and Kindles are GLUED SHUT. The battery itself is also glued to the case. How is that easy?
It's not just about phones... (Score:2)
Laptop battery modules (not just Apple's, but every manufacturer)
Electric hand tools (drills, saws, etc)
Rechargable battery packs (think ANKER)
Electric shavers
That little BB-8 remote control toy.
It's not that the batteries are glued in those devices, but sometimes you can't even open them without destroying the case. Many times, they just have a plain old 18650 in there anyway.
Run iPhone on AA batteries (Score:3)
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I want an iPhone that runs on AA batteries. It will run for days and recharge by just replacing the batteries.
You and Apple...
No way you are getting enough power from a stack of AA batteries you'd be wiling to carry around that rivals the internal battery in an I-phone.
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No way you are getting enough power from a stack of AA batteries you'd be wiling to carry around that rivals the internal battery in an I-phone.
Energizer makes 3000 mAh AA batteries. That's in the same range as a cell phone battery. So the power is there, but voltage is another matter. These are 1.5 volt like any other AA battery so you'd probably need 2-4 to supply enough voltage, which would, as jfdavis indicated, last for days.
https://www.amazon.com/Energiz... [amazon.com]
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Presumably you also want a Microsoft Surface 3 times as thick so that you can use AA batteries as well.
Nextel (Score:2)
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This is a good thing (Score:2)
dumb (Score:2)
None of the phone makers do this. As it is now, their batte
Are Ink cartridges next? (Score:5, Insightful)
Laptops (Score:2)
Not all good ideas should be law (Score:3, Insightful)
But this should not be law.
It should be up to the customers to decide what devices they want and with what features or anti-features.
Because innovation is always a trade off: want a slim phone? Well you'll have to sacrifice some durability to get it etc..
So it should be up to the customers to decide what a good trade off is.
Re:Not all good ideas should be law (Score:5, Insightful)
Standard batteries (Score:2)
Cars and dealer only software what will this bill (Score:2)
Cars and dealer only software what will this bill do to that?
A foolish idea (Score:2, Insightful)
It took me about 15 minutes to replace an "unreplaceable" iphone battery and the kit came with all the tools for 25USD.
It's fine if you don't like it. Just don't buy it. Why are Americans so bent on needing laws to prohibit anything they don't like even if they're not subject to it?
Also note, this law does nothing to the auto industry. My understanding from all the voices chattering on about owners' rights is that they're the prime offenders. So why is this getting high praise? A phone with a reasonably rep
ridiculous (Score:4, Interesting)
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pacemakers? You really want to replace the battery in that? Yourself?
They say that it needs to be replaceable by an 'independent repair provider'. So not by yourself, but by someone presumably trained and familiar with the device, but not necessarily associated with the original manufacturer.
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So I can pay the manufacturer, or pay someone else, but can't do it myself? Not sure I really see the improvement there....
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pacemakers? You really want to replace the battery in that? Yourself?
The definition of "Electronic Device" in the bill includes having a screen, and being for sale to the general consumer. I know of zero pacemakers that meet that definition.
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I imagine that if you were to hold a pacemaker, obviously not while it is in you, the battery would be replaceable. Plus now they are developing pacemakers that can be powered internally. I see what you're getting at, and it should be defined well, but we know that is unlikely.
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I should also be able to remove the tubes and take them down to the local pharmacy and try them in the tube tester.
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Of course, if unfettered control were given to the engineers, a phone would probably weight 6 pounds and the battery would last for several months, so it's really a lose-lose situation.
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Engineers would not design six pounds phones, but they would stop this thin-at-all-cost craziness happening right now.
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Engineers are doing what the market seems to be demanding.
Market wants sleek phones. Engineers make phones sleeker by removing options for battery swaps.
Market want water resistant phones. Engineers seal up phones nice n tight, preventing water to key components.
Market wants sleek, water resistant phones with swappable batteries. Those phones are 2-3x the cost of just sleek phones with water resistance. Market say nope. Liberal whiner complains about corporate greed.
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You really need to find a new smartphone dealer. You might try the iPhone if that's what you've been finding for sale.
Re:Everything is made better by Government! (Score:4, Funny)
I cannot think of a single faucet of life, a human endeavor, or anything that we might seek to do, accomplish, or perform that isn't made better by legislation and governmental control and regulation.
See, that's the problem. They regulate my faucets to stupid-low flow levels! I can barely get enough pressure to deal with hard water and soap. It's almost like by controlling our faucets, they want to control all facets of our life!
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Re:Not Sure They Understand (Score:4, Informative)
FTB (from the Bill):
2) "Digital electronic product" means a handheld or portable electronic device containing a microprocessor and flat panel computer monitor originally manufactured for distribution and sale in the United States for general consumer purchase. Digital electronic product includes but is not limited to smartphones, electronic reading devices, laptop computers, and tablets.
So no, it will not outlaw musical greeting cards... unless they come with a flat panel monitor. It seems like it will also not outlaw medical or industrial devices, as it says "for general consumer purchase".
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By that wording it includes car dashboards. I hope that sticks.
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Are you going to repair a one-use $2 greetings card? Likely not. It would be considered disposable.
Are you going to consider a $700 iPhone disposable? Likely not.
As such, the definition would be quite simple to lay down.
However, every gadget I buy seems to have a replaceable battery. Huawei 4G Wifi Router? Check. $20 GPS tracker for my car? Check. $20 in-car dashcam? Check. $10 Blueooth keyboard/trackpad? Check. XBox controllers? Check.
Pretty much if it has a battery, I can replace it. Even my
Re:Government designed electronics (Score:5, Insightful)
(Some) people may know their phone is not repairable. However, they do not consider the environmental cost since the cost is passed on to the rest of the world. This is exactly the kind of situation where you need government intervention. To fix a market failure.
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The bill is barely about how things have to be designed. That just happens to be the one very small part of the bill that TFA picked up on. Mainly the bill is about not allowing OEMs to shut out independent repair shops by hoarding parts and repair manuals. I.e. the bill is mostly about compelling OEMs to share info and parts with independent shops at a reasonable cost.
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Of those three, none were invented by governments, and only two are required by law.
More to the point, the two were required for safety reasons, not for convenience.
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Re:Government designed electronics (Score:5, Interesting)
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People know what they're getting into when they buy a phone.
LOL no they don't, most people are dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to technology, all they know is it's shiny and new and they can play Candy Crush (or whatever) and watch movies on it, they have no idea what's under the hood and they give little-to-no thought as to whether the battery can be replaced or not or anything else service-related. Besides which do you think marketers want people to care about things like that? Hell no, marketers want people to throw the thing away in a year and buy a brand n
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If your going through that trouble why not replace with a polyfuse and never have to deal with replacing it again?
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What? You don't replace with circuit breakers?
Sometimes such things are done as a fail safe and the device is supposed to be externally fused at a lower level. In this case, the fuse is there to protect from users doing things they shouldn't. I've seen this design used to protect from reverse polarity accidents, where a cleverly placed diode will cause the internal fuse to blow before the device can be destroyed.
Also, in high vibration and environmentally uncontrolled environments, sometimes a soldered
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Oh, *NOW* you want replaceable batteries when your precious iphone craps out. Where was this bill when the save files in my SNES cartridges started vanishing?!
I know this was intended as a bit of a joke post, but SNES cart batteries are actually reasonably replaceable. They're just normal coin cells in a holder. Though to be fair the battery is typically soldered to the holder. But the holder is not near any critical components or pathways, so unless you have terrible hand tremors it's not hard to remove with low risk. Source: I have replaced them using my rudimentary electronics skills. The most annoying part of it is having to order a special screwdriver bit to
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Norelco Philips, Black and Decker, I was especially referring to YOU, you filthy greedy bastards.