Shouting 'Pay Your Taxes', Activists Occupy Apple Stores in France (marketwatch.com) 233
An anonymous reader quotes MarketWatch:
A group of global activists stormed and occupied several Apple Stores in France on Saturday in a move aimed at pressuring the company to pay up on a €13 billion ($15.5 billion) tax bill to the European Union. In a press release, the France unit of the Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions and Citizen's Action organization (Attac), said 100 of its members occupied the Opera Apple Store in Paris, demanding the company pay its taxes... Attac said dozens of protests were organized at other Apple store locations throughout France on Saturday. In the Paris store, activists were seen via videos circulating on Twitter, pushing past security and hanging a banner that said "We will stop when Apple pays." Security in Paris reportedly evacuated Apple workers from the building as those protests began.
After three hours they left the store -- leaving behind protest messages on the iPads on display. The group claims that Apple has stashed $230 billion in tax havens around the world, but also hopes to raise awareness about other issues.
"Attac said the action was part of the #PhoneRevolt movement aimed at highlighting unfair practices by Apple, that are not just about taxes, but also pollution via extraction of metals for its phones, worker exploitation and driving a global consumption binge."
After three hours they left the store -- leaving behind protest messages on the iPads on display. The group claims that Apple has stashed $230 billion in tax havens around the world, but also hopes to raise awareness about other issues.
"Attac said the action was part of the #PhoneRevolt movement aimed at highlighting unfair practices by Apple, that are not just about taxes, but also pollution via extraction of metals for its phones, worker exploitation and driving a global consumption binge."
Taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
The activists then... (Score:4, Funny)
... went to the nearby Starbucks to Twitter about their "action", and posting their selfies on Instagram and Facebook using their iPhones.
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Ahem...
That's "Le Starbucks"
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That's La Starbucks when you talk about Starbucks as it is a chain and corporation, both of those in French are feminine.
Good for France (Score:2, Informative)
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And plenty in taxes are paid. So this is nothing but statist slaver bullshit.
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One would assume that "plenty" would be the legally required amount, which Apple has been careful to evade.
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Taxes are what holds up and maintains infrastructure, health, food and shelter for the poor.
Why shouldn’t French people pay for government services to help French people?
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Worse, life makes death possible!
And even worse, it makes it certain!!!
Therefore, ban turtleneck sweaters and gravy boats! End the suffering!
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No, guns do not make it possible to resist governments. No civilian force is able to resist a much smaller modern military force.
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Re:Good for France (Score:5, Insightful)
Note that I'm French.
If your sentiment that the reason for the protests were that french people desire companies to pay their taxes were true, they would have been protesting in Total gas stations. The problem is that Total, (who owes more money in taxes to the French Government) Is French so it wouldn't be popular. Muuch better to target that foreign Apple company...
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I'd prefer it if they weren't hypocritically targeting foreign companies. The taxes that Total is avoiding paying are higher than those for Apple. Potholes don't care who paid the taxes to fix them.
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I'm not seeing that on the internet, maybe you could provide an English-language source?
The internet says they lose money in France, and actually don't owe much taxes there.
It does say their subsidiary Total Gabon owes lots of unpaid taxes to Gabon.
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Wrong (Score:2)
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Well then, perhaps they should pressure the world's governments to close the loopholes that make tax avoidance (This is NOT tax *evasion* we're talking about.) possible.
That will never happen though, because those loopholes are there on purpose. And closing them would anger the companies that actually payed for them to be there. The only reason various people are in a snit about Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and the like, is that these companies cleverly realized that, once on the books, those laws act
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The tax burden is what law says it is, not what some self-entitled shit-heads with funny accents think it should be.
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Serious question: How will the poor do that if they've already been processed into a useful industrial slurry?
GET A BETTER ACCOUNTANT! (Score:2)
A better shout.
The epitome of silliness (Score:2)
I appreciate the efforts taken. But protesting against a company that behaves immorally is the epitome of silliness.
Companies aren't obliged to have a moral; They merely need to obey the law. They must explore every way of making money and optimizing costs. Their competitors will do likewise.
Go after politicians that created opportunities for companies to optimize their taxes to an absurd level. Hell you can even use your actual influence and vote to try and accomplish your goal and make tax laws mor
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If companies are not obliged to have a moral, why do protesters do? Why can a company do whatever it wants while individuals are always judged morally. I think that the reason why these protesters are acting the way they are is because they are fighting fire with fire. Maybe their mistake is that their fire is not hot enough.
Payback (Score:2)
Literally payback. Apple has cherrypicked tax localities and laws to the point of absurdity.
Re:U.S. First (Score:5, Insightful)
Since Apple's corporate headquarters is in the U.S., we get the money first.
Why would you get the money? Apple isn't the subject of a US court battle about the US not collecting taxes from Apple properly. Apple pays as much taxes in the USA as is required by law, unlike in the EU where it was found their tax agreement with Ireland was illegal.
Re:U.S. First (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple's headquarters are in the US but it also has branches in the EU, and these branches depend on the laws of the country they are in.
So when Apple Ireland makes a sale in the EU, it has to pay taxes to Ireland, like any Irish company. And Apple France has to pay taxes in France. That the headquarters are in the US doesn't matter. And it's a good thing, otherwise, the headquarters would have been quickly relocated to a tax heaven.
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A government can make the laws in their own country, of course.
However, if a country enters a trade agreement, and the EU is for most part a trade agreement, it should play by the rules it if it wants to continue trading.
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Do they still funnel dough through Ireland? It's up to the French government and the EU to close any loopholes.
It seems not unreasonable to me for Apple's retail arm in France to be registered as a French business. If they rent buildings in Paris and other cities, employ local workers and collect French sales tax then they should pay the same proportion of tax as Gerard's Boutique d'Ordinateurs (pardon mon franÃais!) on the corner.
Is this not happening? A relative here in Australia was surprised when a
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The EU already said there is no loophole, Ireland simply made false promises to Apple.
Loopholes don't spring into existence just because your lawyer waved his hands and said words; if it was a dubious theory that was never tested in court, you had no reason to believe it was actually a loophole!
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:3)
Yes, it is much better to always accept things as they are and never complain.
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it is much better to always accept things as they are and never complain.
There is a middle ground: They could educate themselves, and then direct their outrage more constructively. For instance, if the French don't like their tax laws, perhaps they should complain to their politicians rather than to a company that is behaving legally.
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:5, Insightful)
Complaining to their politicians would never have made the front page of international newspapers to raise awareness about the issues surrounding the current tax laws.
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:5, Informative)
Complaining to their politicians would never have made the front page of international newspapers to raise awareness about the issues surrounding the current tax laws.
There is already plenty of awareness. I have seen dozens of front page articles about Apple's tax dispute with the EU.
But awareness is not enough. It is important to take action, and to direct that action appropriately. A good example is the reaction on both the left and the right to America's financial bailout. The left reacted with "Occupy Wall Street", which focused on street protests against the companies that received the bailout. The right reacted with the "Tea Party" and focused on electoral politics, endorsing candidates that met their approval, and promoting challengers to those that did not.
OWS never articulated any clear objectives, has now faded away, and is mostly forgotten.
The Tea Party, meanwhile, has taken over the Republican Party and is now running the country.
Lesson learned: Proper focus makes a difference.
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The Tea Party, meanwhile, has taken over the Republican Party and is now running the country.
Lesson learned: Proper focus makes a difference.
Yeah, and they even elected a president with a strong Anti Wall Street rhetoric. Who put more Wall Street men into his cabinet than any before. And will now deregulate the banks so they again screw over the world. All Hail Trump!
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:2)
Funny, I remember people saying the same thing about treason during the prior Republican presidency. At least with Obama, we didnâ(TM)t get into any NEW wars. Atleast we killed the guy who did 9/11.
With another Republican President, we appear to be 2-3 tweets away from invading NK.
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Apple's sweetheart tax deal with Ireland was found to be illegal.
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Apple's sweetheart tax deal with Ireland was found to be illegal.
Not by any Irish court.
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It violated treaties that Ireland had voluntarily signed, and hence the Irish government actions were illegal.
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I've never understood why the French just don't manufacture and use their own phones, computers and operating systems.
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You would be suprised to learn that France is one of the very few countries in the world with a truly independent computer platform development. Their national architecture split from the earliest generation of IBM360 in the 1960s and the BULL company developed it further independently. French electronic industry however is not cost-competitive in the post-Cold War world, so their architecture is only used in military and nuclear industrial applications nowadays.
For example, the french Dassault Rafale fight
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:2)
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France has a long history of this kind of protest taking place and getting results. From framers shutting down roads to campaigners against poverty openly robbing supermarkets, politicians take notice and stuff gets done. Of course, sometimes the protesters find themselves in the minority, but even then it tends to settle the issue for a while and stop them agitating.
The French incorporated protest into their democracy, unlike many other countries where politicians are always looking for ways to marginalize
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Your comment was tagged as insightfull, but i'd rather say it's naive, and actually not insightfull at all...
It's not a problem of French tax law, it's not even a problem of EU tax law, it's a problem of Ireland playing the "tax paradise" card, offering low tax harbor for enterprise like Apple, which can then deliver freely in Europe (due to tax free market inside all European Union).
Things are changing though and UE is starting to show its muscles to Ireland.
Beside all that, these events are mainly targete
Re: "Global" Activists? (Score:5, Insightful)
If only MLK and his followers would stop their boycotts and protests and informed themselves of the political process they'd get so much more.
MLK's boycotts and protests always had clear and specific objectives. Integrate the buses in Montgomery. Raise the wages of garbagemen in Memphis. Etc. There was always a clear point where he could declare victory, and move on to the next objective.
He was also very skilled at working with politicians, especially Lyndon Johnson.
Contrast MLK with OWS or BLM, neither of which has any clear objectives or accomplishments.
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OWS was against some things, but never could come up with things to be specifically in favor of, and pissed away a lot of potential activism. BLM's objectives are long-term, and involve piling up minor wins until they become a trend. Unlike OWS, BLM can't use MLK's techniques.
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LOL that's not really how it is playing out in the streets. DERP!
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We're going to call the cops on you when you violate the law, like any civilized group. It's been a long time since civil order was maintained by private armaments, and good riddance to that. Your good ol' boy is going to spend a fair number of years in prison for that shot.
Re:Why does Apple even bother (Score:5, Insightful)
Your first assumption is that you can weight these things against each other, and your second assumption is that this must be done. Why? The only place where boiling ethics down to a boolean is effective is in Hollywood movies.
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This is slashdot, if he "learned" something from the movies other than how to repeat Monty Python lines, that passes as expert knowledge.
Apple pays a lot of taxes in the EU, provides more (Score:2, Insightful)
"Appleâ(TM)s Irish tax arrangements have allowed it to pay tax at a rate of 3.8 percent on $200 billion of overseas profits"
From this article [reuters.com].
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
Not to mention, that for every expensive Apple device sells, the EU is of course collecting a tax of taxes (VAT) atop that as well. All just because Apple has physically located a store there. The taxes collected alone on sales must be many more billions.
Again, just for Apple havin
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VAT is not a "tax of taxes." That is just silliness.
And anyways, who cares? "Your honor, I did steal that money, but last week I gave a smaller amount of money to a charity. That makes it OK." "*Bang!*Bang* Maximum sentence!"
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So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
So your argument is that Apple should pay a lower tax rate because the make a lot of money?
Out of interest, which political wing do you identify with?
That was not the point (Score:3)
So your argument is that Apple should pay a lower tax rate
Nope.
The original post I responded to said Apple paid "No Taxes" in the EU. Is 7.6 billion dollars greater than, or equal to zero?
Out of interest, which political wing do you identify with?
I belong to the "Correcting Blatant Lies With Facts" party. I know we are greatly in disfavor in these days Where the "Angry Factless Slander" party is greatly on the uptick, but you really should consider joining us instead as it's much better for your health.
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"AppleÃ(TM)s Irish tax arrangements have allowed it to pay tax at a rate of 3.8 percent on $200 billion of overseas profits"
From this article.
So that is 7.6 *billion* dollars in taxes that Apple has paid to the EU in taxes.
Or to put it another way, it's at least 50 *billion* that Apple dodged paying to the EU in taxes.
The corporation tax rate in France is 33%. It varies around Europe but 25-30% is typical.
Again, just for Apple having a store located in that country or city.
No. It includes everything they sell on iTunes to French citizens. It includes all the paid services they offer to French customers like repairs, battery replacements and cloud storage. It includes all the business services they offer in France like Siri integration. This stuff is so significant that Apple set up a French su
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Hang on, what are you saying?
Why should the overall tax rate for my company be 10 times higher than it it for Apple?
Are you saying this is fair?
And thanks for mentioning VAT - that's tax that the consumer pays, not the business. So, no only to I pay a higher tax rate, I also get to pay extra tax as a consumer that Apple doesn't pay.
Well, at least I'm paying to have a civilized country.
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Apple is not breaking the law though. Tax avoidance (as opposed to tax evasion) is perfectly legal. And tax avoidance (structuring your finances so that the tax you're legitimately obligated to pay), is something that everyone, everywhere, does. Apple has merely done it better than you or I could each April.
The only example where it's actually been established that laws have been broken, with regard to taxation, has been the case recently where the EU ruled that Ireland set it's tax rate too low, giving
The issue is that the EU CLAIMS (Score:2)
It's in the UN too. Does that mean that Apple pays VAT to the UN?
Apple doesn't "pay" VAT to anyone, they collect it on behalf of a local government.
It doesn't. You are the one claiming that it did.
Claiming what? That the EU provides services? I made no such claim.
From the general budget of the member states. It is not DISCONNETED FROM any specific tax.
Corrected that for you. Unless you seriously want to assert no VAT money goes to fund the EU, ever. Come on, I know you can do it! I dare you. ... and on
Re:Why does Apple even bother (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, I wasn't under the impression that Apple uses their own private road network in the EU, but I am clearly mistaken.
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Oh, I wasn't under the impression that Apple uses their own private road network in the EU, but I am clearly mistaken.
Does Apple use roads at all? Their contractors and customers and employees probably do, but then those people pay taxes for fuel and VAT and income and whatever else. So the road users pay for the roads they use. Any other reason Apple should pay?
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Re: Why does Apple even bother (Score:2)
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That's just delegating retail sales, the fact that Apple would still benefit from public infrastructure remains, even if it's not used by them directly.
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Cities didn't get created to help Apple. Cities were built by the people, for the benefit of the people. The people should pay their own way, for their own benefit — not try to get someone else to pay their way for them.
Anyone who wants to be part of the collective has to pay the tax that the collective demands. Apple included.
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Somalia is pretty much that. So libertarian, it doesn't even impose which side of the road you should drive. Enjoy your Freedom Car Crash.
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Oh yes, I'm sure the taxes that an Apple store shop assistant pays totally cover the road maintenance needed by trucks full of iPhones. ...
Not to mention the cost on the judicial system imposed by endless IP litigation.
Or the police investigation needed to track down that crate full of Macs that mysteriously disappeared from logistics.
Or...
Or...
Are you seriously so gullible to believe that a corporation doesn't represent a cost on public infrastructure higher that the sum of its singular employees?
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In exchange for what government services?
Police who will come to your store and arrest trespassers and thieves comes to mind.
If Apple doesn't want to pay taxes, then there shouldn't be any penalties for people who steal from Apple's stores.
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Police who will come to your store and arrest trespassers and thieves comes to mind.
That would be the Irish police in Ireland. The EU doesn't have a police force.
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Someone should rip your face off and stuff it in a toilet. You are that stupid.
Unless France is as stupid as it leads the world to believe, Apple pays property and business taxes for its stores. The tax haven stuff is for profits on actual sales.
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Doesn't sound like any did, so I guess Apple got exactly what they paid for: nothing. They should have grabbed some loot while they were at it.
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Apple has subsidiaries in Europe. They do a huge amount of business in Europe. They employ Europeans, who have their education and healthcare partially or fully funded by taxation. They use European infrastructure. They own property in Europe, like the Apple store being protested at. They advertise in Europe, they pay European sales tax. They have to abide by European data protection and consumer laws.
Apple should pay its fair share of taxes, or get out of Europe. They won't do the latter because it is a hu
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In exchange for what government services?
A pool of educated people to select employees from. Even a retail store benefits from people who can read and write and have a certain understanding of the world so as to represent Apple in a quasi-professional manner. These people in turn have a system for having a place where they can shower and practice good hygiene. Transportation systems to get the employees to work in a timely manner. Apple benefits directly from all of this. Really the list is endless and it is almost comical that you would thin
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Government services like protection of the glass storefronts of their stores.
Presumably they pay property taxes (or rent that ultimately goes to pay for property taxes) to cover the cost of law enforcement protection of their property.
And IP protection of their software and their designs.
I haven’t read the treaty, but I think Europe protects foreign IP in exchange for the US and other countries protecting European IP. If Europe wants out of that treaty, there's probably a way to end it. I doubt the treaty allows for holding IP protection hostage for a tax grab.
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I mean, protesters got the 40 hour work week, ended segregation in the US and South Africa, and a lot of other benefits. That's not nothing.
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Apple is receiving a lot
Such as ...?
What are they offering for the greater good?
Phones. Software. Maps. Email. Cloud storage. Communications. Payment services. Publishing services. Apple makes products. Apple customers judge those products good.
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Phones. Software. Maps. Email. Cloud storage. Communications. Payment services. Publishing services.
Yeah, those don't really help us as much as you think they do.
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Name-calling is neither reasoned nor persuasive.
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You are a bigoted piece of shit. You should be raped up the ass with a Samsung S5 and then killed.
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EU countries impose massive tax burdens relative to the rest of the world
No kidding; For example, DSLRs can only make 29 minute, 59 second video clips because a camera that can take >= 30 minute clips is a "movie camera" under EU laws and triggers a much higher tax. So our Canons and Nikons in the US and the rest of the world have that limit too.
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DSLRs can only make 29 minute, 59 second video clips because a camera that can take >= 30 minute clips is a "movie camera" under EU laws and triggers a much higher tax. So our Canons and Nikons in the US and the rest of the world have that limit too.
It's trivial to issue different firmwares for different regions, companies do this all the time. I imagine, though, that there are unofficial patches to remove that limit from at least some cameras.
Re: Apple should not pay the taxes (Score:2)
Well, the US is about to ruin the internet for everyone and then there's the whole continuous wars thing. Maybe EU taxes aren't so bad by comparison.
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Actually, EU corporate taxes are generally lower [politifact.com] than US corporate taxes. That's why US corporations keep their money overseas.
European tax systems tend to me more fair: the European middle class, which receives most of the benefits from taxation, pays considerably higher taxes than the US middle class; that is, they pay what they use and balance their bud
Re:Apple should not pay the taxes (Score:5, Informative)
EU countries impose massive tax burdens relative to the rest of the world. Excessive taxation, especially for how EU countries spend the money, is unjust. Refusing to pay unfair and excessive taxes is a moral position. Apple should continue to not pay the taxes, and they are completely justified in that position.
We get a good universal healthcare system, good welfare state, good education system and decent infrastructure for our money. You may think we're taxed to death but the tax burden per capita in the UK for the NHS is the same as the tax burden per capita of Medicare/Medicaid is for the US yet we get a healthcare system where it is free to use for all. We also get things provided for free that are an additional cost in the USA. We don't pay a separate charge through our local taxes for the fire department for example.
I'd rather keep paying the taxes and have what we have than not do and end up living in a first world country where highway bridges are collapsing and people go bankrupt because they get ill.
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The modern Internet then offered technology and information to many parts of the EU.
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If a country has set a low tax rate to attract jobs and investment then that is the tax rate that has to be paid.
The private sector has to pay a tax rate set a gov.
The private sector still has the freedom just move its jobs to areas better suited to support capitalism.
Why not put some effort into creating good private sector jobs?
Allowing more people to study for jobs that pay well?
When the private sector invests, show some support that compan
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Or maybe reality will set it and France will cease to exist, as no one will be working at all.
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Rape is morally wrong. Not paying taxes you don't owe isn't.
Now go get yourself raped, you illogical fuck.
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When pressed they admit that apple does better than quite a few global players but pulling the stunts on them don't get any press coverage. So they attack apple.
Um, yes...?
The point of protesting is to raise awareness. If the laws clamp down on Apple, they will also clamp down on other, lett well known companies who use the same tax dodges.
So if they raise awareness, via attacking a company who does bad stuff even if there are companies who do worse, and get the laws fixed then that seems like a net win to