EU Takes Ireland To Court For Not Claiming Apple Tax Windfall (reuters.com) 192
Philip Blenkinsop, reporting for Reuters: The European Commission said on Wednesday it was taking Ireland to the European Court of Justice for its failure to recover up to 13 billion euros ($15.3 billion) of tax due from Apple, a move labeled as "regrettable" by Dublin. The Commission ordered the U.S. tech giant in August 2016 to pay the unpaid taxes as it ruled the firm had received illegal state aid, one of a number of deals the EU has targeted between multinationals and usually smaller EU states. "More than one year after the Commission adopted this decision, Ireland has still not recovered the money," EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said, adding that Dublin had not even sought a portion of the sum.
Also ordering Amazon to pay €250m ($293m) (Score:4, Insightful)
in back taxes as it had been given an unfair tax deal in Luxembourg [bbc.co.uk]. OK: Amazon saved some tax, but that saving allowed it to under-cut its rivals, some of who have been put out of business - will there be any compensation for those competitors, the cost of which could dwarf the back-tax bill ? I suspect that the answer is no in which case Amazon's dodgy dealings have been highly profitable and will continue to be so in the future -- as it has fewer competitors.
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If the tax saving allowed Amazon to undercut its competitor's prices, then the money is still in Luxembourg or the EU. Their customers still have it (or they spent it, in which case the money helped other businesses). If, as insinuated, Amazon took all the 250m Euro it saved to the bank rubbing their hands in glee, then there was no price savings for the customers, and thus no negative con
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You are missing a piece, Amazons shenanigans put some EU competition out of business which led to people losing their jobs which also means less taxes paid in the EU.
So, no matter how you try to spin it - it was a net loss for EU.
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If you were one of those competitors it's not clear who you might sue... The government of Luxembourg negotiated the deal, but they could argue that they reasonably believed to be to legal and point to similar deals in Ireland as evidence. Amazon would probably argue that it's not their job to understand the finer points of tax law when offered a deal by a government, which is of course bullshit because you can bet their accountants were the ones who suggested it.
Re:Also ordering Amazon to pay €250m ($293m) (Score:4, Insightful)
If they still wanted to keep giving amazon 0.1% they would have had to lower it for everyone else.
the question is"Why?" (Score:2)
So if Ireland doesn't get tax money, and benefits from having some folks employeed are way below whatever they'd get from this tax, why would they even consider such a weird move?
Other than someone in the government getting something from Apple...
Re:the question is"Why?" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:the question is"Why?" (Score:5, Insightful)
EU as a whole, and most member and quasi-member nations, believe in social welfare, not corporate welfare. The US is different in this regard. Americans are against social welfare, but very much in favor of corporate welfare, under the misguided belief that this will translate into jobs.
It doesn't of course. Less taxes means more profits but more profits doesn't lead to more jobs. But since Americans are against social welfare, they have a comparatively poor public education system, so it's hardly surprising that the average american voter can not understand much more than rudimentary economics. Just look at how much they confuse the concept of a government budget with that of their own personal budget. Utterly senseless.
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Don't know why you posted "AC" but this is a very accurate description...
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Don't know why you posted "AC" but this is a very accurate description...
Russian trolls don't care which side of an argument they provide. Their goal is just to create polarization and argument. If they don't have accounts, they can't be shown to be Russian trolls, and can't have their accounts banned.
Kansas? (Score:2)
EU as a whole, and most member and quasi-member nations, believe in social welfare, not corporate welfare. The US is different in this regard. Americans are against social welfare, but very much in favor of corporate welfare, under the misguided belief that this will translate into jobs.
It doesn't of course. Less taxes means more profits but more profits doesn't lead to more jobs. But since Americans are against social welfare, they have a comparatively poor public education system, so it's hardly surprising that the average american voter can not understand much more than rudimentary economics. Just look at how much they confuse the concept of a government budget with that of their own personal budget. Utterly senseless.
You left out that if you lower the taxes which means more profits those profits get exported, instantly, to tax havens like Panama using creative bookkeeping methods where they further increase the estimated 29 trillion dollars kept in such tax havens. The US state of Kansas is a good example of this, they forged ahead with an experiment in massive tax cutting for the wealthy based on the notion that it would cause an increase in investment in the local economy and shrink government... it didn't. Rich peopl
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They get tax from those that work at Apple. Maybe some politicians are getting sidekicks. Ireland get tax by letting Apple pay almost no tax in all of Europe. And Ireland takes more money from EU than it pays. Of course most of the other EU countries are not happy about it.
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s/sidekicks/kickbacks
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s/sidekicks/kickbacks
I haven't used sed in 25 years. It is like riding a bike.
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Ireland's economy is built on enticing tech by enabling tax evasion and avoidance.
So if they don't win this fight, there's no reason for tech to go to Ireland anymore - the only reason they get this tax money is because tech is there, so whilst they can get this windfall, tech will leave and there'll be no more money afterwards. Ireland is playing the long game.
But of course, it's also cheating at the game, so it's really a problem Ireland has created itself. Similarly Luxembourg and Switzerland are parasit
Ok, ok ... (Score:2)
In related news: Announcing our corporate tax rebate program.
-- Ireland
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Ummm... Ireland is getting sued precisely because they are claiming Ireland's uncollected taxes are a corporate tax rebate program. Corporate tax rebates are a form of government assistance which are against EU rules.
Then what? (Score:2)
What charges (Score:2)
Is the problem in Apple or the Consumer? (Score:2)
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Well, I guess that would mean all companies based there would move.
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, yeah, let's argue about this. I can call you something like "idiot", and then people can pick sides and we can all be angry at each other.
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Funny)
I'm in.
I think we should hitlerize the nazimistic terroristic pedophiliac child-endangerment side of the argument and stuff.
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ZOMG. A quantum-Godwin post. And I lived to see it.
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Unfortunately, it wasn't posted on usenet, so Godwin's law does not apply.
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Part of its wave-function is on usenet, so Godwin's Law does apply. And it doesn't. Actually I'm not sure. I'll ask my cat, after I open her box.
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bestiality is wrong.
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, God help us if companies are forced to pay their legally required taxes
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They did pay their legally required taxes to Irelend. The EU decided that Ireland's sovereign tax rate wasn't high enough. It's big EU countries trying to dictate what Ireland should do. That should not be legal.
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Ireland = assholes...
duh
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Let me ask you, are those corporations that interested in the Irish market? So why doesn't Ireland leave big bad EU?
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Interesting)
Corporation tax in Ireland is 12.5%. Apple gets a sweetheart deal from the Irish government and pays a lot less than 12.5%. Sweetheart deals like this are banned in the EU to prevent a race to the bottom by other small states. It's OK under EU rules for them to charge less than 12.5% but that has to be the rate for all corporation tax payers in Ireland, not just Apple and other big multinationals with similar deals.
It's something Ireland agreed to on accession to the EU. If they want to leave the EU and play these sorts of games, no problem but Apple relies on Ireland's EU membership to be able to shuffle their profits from all the other EU nations frictionlessly through their Irish offices and pay less tax than anywhere else. Outside the EU Ireland is no further use as a cheap-tax-rate haven for Apple et al.
It's not Apple at fault here, it's the notoriously corrupt Irish government that has traditionally played fast and loose with such financial rules in many other circumstances. The EU has had enough. If Ireland don't collect the taxes due from Apple I'd expect various EU grants and subsidies to be cut back pro rata on the basis that the Irish government had the chance to raise those revenues properly themselves by charging the correct rate of tax in the first place.
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What is in dispute here is that Ireland is behaving like a tax haven while enjoying full access to the EU market. Same thing for Luxembourg.
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Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. And that means the companies were not paying their legally required taxes?
Yes, companies were not paying their legally required taxes.
Who decides what companies should pay within a sovereign nation? Is it the nation, or the EU?
The nation. The nation made a decision to agree to certain terms when it joined the economic union known as the European Union. Those terms are binding on the nation as long as they're part of that union. Not enforcing those terms is the sovereign equivalent of signing up for a cell phone contract, then telling the cell phone company you're only going to pay 30% of the bill each month, because it's a better deal for you.
And if there is an issue - does it mean the company didn't pay its legally required taxes, or that the nation violated some trade agreement it had?
Both. The company didn't pay its legally required taxes and the nation that is letting it is violating a trade agreement by doing so.
Really, this isn't hard. If you believe in the rule of law at all, then you must also believe that sovereign nations are subject to it, or treaties are totally meaningless, always. Which is certainly an option, if you want the world at each other's throats on a constant basis. Those of us who prefer peace and quiet would like to see treaties honored.
And Apple can pay their fucking taxes. I have to. So do they.
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:4, Informative)
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and those nations were fine with what was being paid
Just like you're fine with buying a clearly stolen TV out of the back of a van? In many places you're non the less committing a crime.
The nations made illegal deals with specific corporations, and that's the problem here. Accomplices to crimes are punishable in nearly every jurisdiction on the planet. You can't pretend that Apple and Amazon are completely innocent in a deal created specifically for them knowingly in breach of rules that ensure that corporations are treated equally within the bloc.
I didn't k
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Nope. A sales contract is a private agreement between Apple and the store. A treaty is binding law. Your analogy would work better if there was a law that forbade selling below recommended retail price, not a sales agreement.
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Wrong again. The EU is not asking any money from Apple. It's rather forcing Ireland to exact a fair taxation from Apple (tax money that then will stay in Ireland, mind you).
Ireland doesn't want to do that as they know low taxation is the only reason corporations place their EU presence there. With harmonized EU taxation, corporations would move where there's better infrastructure.
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The EU doesn't levy any taxes. Fail.
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Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, isn't part of the reason that all of these companies incorporate in Ireland or have their European branched headquartered there officially so that they can funnel all of the revenue earned in the EU through Ireland for the lower taxes. Ireland leaving the EU removes the reason for those corporations to be there in the first place. It makes no sense for them to want to leave.
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's so they can funnel all the revenue earned GLOBALLY through Ireland.
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Ireland is the Delaware of the EU.
Both are business-friendly.
Businesses have ____ (hint: lots of money).
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:4, Insightful)
I already said, "Delaware."
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Apple has had major facilities in Cork, Ireland since 1980-- 37 years ago, well before the Euro or modern EU existed. This isn't some non-operating legal entity deal like some other companies, which is what makes the EU going after Apple in particular so odd. Maybe some other companies have hopped onto some kind of Ireland loophole, and maybe Apple is getting a good deal there, but they moved into Ireland when that country wasn't in very good shape and have employed a generation of Irish, so it doesn't surp
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Ireland joind the EEC along with the UK in 1974. It is at *THIS* point that they agreed to no state aid and it became possible to funnel profits from the rest of the EEC through Ireland. This is all *BEFORE* Apple existed as a corporate entity and well before 1980.
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Do you realize how ridiculous you sound in the current year?
It sounds like the 1700's!
I imagine this... "The Crown has already told the Colonies that they will not recognize their claim of independence. But sure, keep stirrin the pot, Mr. Washington-Jefferson-Franklin." Sickening.
Then again, I also forgot that if you care about "dead white guys" that makes you a racist in 2017.
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The British crown didn't recognise the colonies' claim to independence. There had to be a war.
What about this?
"The US government has already told the Confederate staters that they will not recognise their claim of independence"
Re: Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:1, Insightful)
There is a reason people like Trump and Farrage won.
You may not agree but the majority of communities have real issues affecting them that DNC/EU leadership is failing to resolve and the Catalexit, Brexit (and more) is a symptom of overreaching governments.
Read up on the role the US/EU played in getting Hitler in power, the issues in Britain, France and Spain are very similar to post-WWI Germany.
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LOL, no just no.... Catalonia will get smacked down in less then a week...
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By whom?
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Eh, no. No chance in hell. The vote wasn't recognized by anyone, there are known suspect activities surrounding the voting and there were no trusted independent observers. A lot of people have said they would have voted if it was a valid vote rather than some PR activity, this including people that want an independent state and those that want to be part of Spain. So the vote is a joke.
But even if the vote would be valid and recognized as such by the world they would not accept shit before Catalonia had bro
Re:Well, maybe Ireland will leave the EU next? (Score:4, Insightful)
but then big companies could not use the tax loophole to avoid paying tax in Europe... you could not safely transfer the low tax earnings from Ireland via EU free internal money transaction to Luxembourg or Netherlands to transfer then to the US using low tax money transfer from those countries (you can add other loops around, but this is basically it)
This are well known loopholes that the each Country politics and EU central politics fail to close, because it would affect very powerful companies and, of course, also private money transfers... those politics have to earn their money!! but there is problem, the remaining tax payers (common people) will pay more tax for covering that missing money!
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and by the way, US and many other countries also have known tax loopholes that nobody with power really want to close. This is a global problem
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While would Ireland or Catalonia bail from the EU? ...
And why the funk do you say: hopefully?
What do you have to gain if a certain country leaves the EU? I'm pretty sure: nothing. You most likely will need a passport to travel there, afterwards. Hardly a gain
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Declaring independence is an *AUTOMATIC* bail from the EU. They could apply to rejoin for sure, but as that requires the unanimous consent of the existing members the chances of that happening are *ZERO* as Spain would just veto it on the basis that they don't recognize Catalonia as a sovereign state.
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Spain can only veto so long ... ...
E.g. until they want something from the EU and they get vetoed back
Sooner or later Catalonia will be a full EU member. ... or not to join if they don't desire so.
Sooner or later Spain will be reduced to a core, called Spain and a few more regions to join the EU
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Admission of new countries requires unanimity. Many other things don't. [europa.eu].
Also, assuming Spain is desperate for something which can be vetoed that could only be exercised by an existing member. Why would they? What the fuck do you think France or Italy could gain by doing so?
I sometimes wonder if you could even point to Europe on a map.
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What has "gain" to do with it?
People want their freedom. Probably they want to (re)join the EU.
When the richest part of Spain drops from the EU because it gets independent, why would the EU not want it back?
Same for the next regions to drop ...
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No you don't.
An ID card is enough.
As UK has no ID cards, obviously they require a passport to visit other EU states.
I don't require a passport to visit the UK.
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Your nitpicking does not help you, as you miss the point: ... and north Africa and plenty of other places: so I don't need a passport.
Actually driving licenses are classifed as ID cards.
In the UK. A UK drving license is not an ID card in Germany or France. Hence a UK citizen needs a passport.
My ID card is valid in the UK
You cannot come to the UK on just an "ID card", it needs to double as a passport. ... or how ever you want to translate it. It is not a passport.
Google "Personalausweis", that is an ID card
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Old Personalausweise don't have RFID. Nor did my last Passport have. Got a new one in May. However depending on age: they are still valid.
You are nitpicking and have no clue.
Half of the countries have besides a "passport" also a national "mini passport" We call it "Personalausweis". An "ID Card".
With such an id card you can travel all over Schengen and everywhere the other country agrees to, e.g. as a German: Tunesia, Marocco, Switzerland etc. But you e.g. can not travel to Japan or Thailand.
The UK has no s
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Well,
you claimed I need a passport to enter the UK.
I don't. I pointed out: the UK citizens usually have no passport or lower level "Personalausweis" equivalent.
Which ID is enough for you I don't know. But I doubt a UK citizen can travel with a driving license only to Switzerland. Hence: he needs a passport. I don't.
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They'd do it while what? While you were sleeping? While Rome burns? While I was going over the far-famed Kerry mountains?
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Reading problems or simply a week mind?
"While" obviously meant to be "why" ...
How can one be so dumb?
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But we can send all the Polacks and Roma home. We'll bring Indians in instead, that'll stick it to the Frogs and Krauts!
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Yeah sure. Because all the corporations have their offices there because of the rich, flourishing Irish internal market.
Or maybe because they have access to the EU market while paying tax-haven level taxation?
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Re:Socialism - drag everyone down to the same leve (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's actually based on decency. And Europe isn't Socialist. It's Democratic Socialist which means certain things are sacrosanct (e.g. health care, education, etc.) and everything else is fair game as long as the rules are followed.
In Europe you generally don't see headlines about how some big corporation just reported its largest profit in its entire history and is also laying off thousands of workers.
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In Europe you generally don't see headlines about how some big corporation just reported its largest profit in its entire history and is also laying off thousands of workers.
Biggest corporate news out of Europe, about European company, that I can think about in past couple years is Volkswagen and their vast emissions scandal.
Which is all the more ironic coming from Europe, given the 'Democratic Socialists' over there are so climate-woke and eco-conscious compared to us not-any-brand of socialist coal-burn
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Biggest corporate news out of Europe, about European company, that I can think about in past couple years is Volkswagen and their vast emissions scandal.
The emissions scandal wasn't specific to Volkswagen and I doubt it is the biggest corporate news out of Europe in the past couple of years.
Which is all the more ironic coming from Europe, given the 'Democratic Socialists' over there are so climate-woke and eco-conscious compared to us not-any-brand of socialist coal-burner Americans who allegedly make crappy sooty cars
They do. Dieselgate was about nitrous oxide, not about soot. And Volkswagen was not amongst the worst offenders, unlike Ford, Fiat Chrysler and Opel, which was a subsidiary of General Motors at the time.
but invented Tesla
Tesla was not 'invented'. It's a brand.
and autonomous driving anyways just for kicks
Daimler-Benz and Ernst Dickmanns are American now?
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The emissions scandal wasn't specific to Volkswagen and I doubt it is the biggest corporate news out of Europe in the past couple of years.
Volkswagen is only outfit that has been levied billions in fines, had to recall millions of vehicles, and had major corporate figures criminally charged stemming from the emissions scandal. What bigger corporate news has come out of Europe in past couple years? The oblivion of Nokia, maybe?
They do. Dieselgate was about nitrous oxide, not about soot. And Volkswagen was not amongst the worst offenders...
See my immediately previous comment.
...unlike Ford, Fiat Chrysler and Opel, which was a subsidiary of General Motors at the time.
See my immediately previous comment (again).
Tesla was not 'invented'. It's a brand.
The Model S was invented. Invented by Tesla to be specific. Model S represents first physical embodiment of the notion that an electric car
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Another one smoked by facts; hence one more back to the Nazi chant.
BTW, unlike Tesla, autonomous driving, etc., one thing Europe invented was...Nazis. Just say'in!
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In Europe you generally don't see headlines about how some big corporation just reported its largest profit in its entire history and is also laying off thousands of workers.
Biggest corporate news out of Europe, about European company, that I can think about in past couple years is Volkswagen and their vast emissions scandal.
Which is all the more ironic coming from Europe, given the 'Democratic Socialists' over there are so climate-woke and eco-conscious compared to us not-any-brand of socialist coal-burner Americans who allegedly make crappy sooty cars...but invented Tesla and autonomous driving anyways just for kicks.
I think the stereotypes you subscribe to aren't working.
Funny, what I remember most is a bunch of headlines coming out of Europe about a string of corporations being punished by the EU for abusive practices like using their dominant market position to stifle competition, price fixing and general anti-trust activities. The latest examples are Microsoft and Google which, incidentally, are still free to continue those abusive practices in the USA where the government sees nothing wrong with corporations abusing monopolies to screw the public. Still, these fines are
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Biggest corporate news out of Europe, about European company, that I can think about in past couple years is Volkswagen and their vast emissions scandal.
The clue is in the last word of this sentence: scandal!
Scandal sells stories.
The biggest news of the last couple of years out of Europe, about a European company, that I can think of would be the sale of ARM* to a Japanese firm (SoftBank) for £24 billion (and then the subsequent sale of 25% of it to a Saudi backed Investment fund - although, tbf, that's no longer 'European' news). The cash involved, and to a lesser degree the implications, dwarf the numbers relating to the VW affair. That you were una
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First off, Volkswagen's current liability scandal estimate is ~$30 billion, and that number seems to grow every quarter
Well, that I didn't know, so thanks. I haven't actually paid that much attention to the ongoing fallout - they did wrong; they got caught; they got, financially, punitively punished; the executives essentially got away with it. Not worth worrying about further.
Also, as you alluded, ARM is British - distinct from Europe these days.
Despite what you might have heard, or what you might believe, the UK is still part of Europe, and still part of the European Union. It will remain part of the EU for at least another 18(ish) months.
And what is ARM, in the actual context of Europe or the UK? Virtually all the outfit's design, engineering, and production facilities are overseas.
Given that the original article is about Apple, and y
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I don't know about Europe but the EU isn't Democratic or Socialist. It's run by an unelected group who's primary concern is the protection of the banking system (especially the German banking system). If the EU were democratic or socialist Britain wouldn't be leaving. Catalonia, on the other hand would be as their beef is that it's not financially right-wing enough.
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The EU is run by theCouncil of Europe which consists of the democratically elected governments of the 28 member states (being a democracy is a condition of entry).
The executive (called the European Commission) is appointed by the democratically elected governments of the 28 member states, much like the executive in the USA is appointed by the democratically elected president.
There is also a directly elected parliament but it doesn't have as much power as the US Congress or the British parliament.
In short, y
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Europe is not any one particular political system. It's not Socialist nor is it Social Democrat. It is numerous countries all with their own governments formed by their Citizens.
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The only reason to choose an unapologetically capitalist system over a capitalist system with socialist add-ons is the honesty of the purely capitalist system: It doesn't aim for stability or decency. Its only driving force is greed. Everything that may be considered a failure in other systems is just part of the natural progression in a capitalist system. Crashed economy? That's how capitalism deals with economic bubbles. People losing their homes? They better learn from that and make better investments ne
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As compared to neo-liberalism, which punishes everyone equally (except for the top 0.01%, but that gets ignored as a rounding error) and is based on greed.
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Sounds so much better than 4th Reich, doesn't it?
We have all the tiki torches, so they couldn't have a Nazi demonstration.
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Its time to FIRE the EU, and go elsewhere. Do NOT trade YOUR OWN GOVERNANCE for EU rulers. You'll Regret it.
The EU isn't above anyone. It's just a plain trade agreement. If they weren't part of the EU and signed up to a trade agreement banning what they did they'd be in a same position. This is how international trade works. Break an agreement you made, expect the other person to come knocking.
But hey you could cut yourself off from a trading bloc of 800million people. No one is forcing you to do business with very low tarifs or restrictions. The UK at least had some sway, if Ireland left we'd all just happy wave
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The trouble is that |Ireland broke its own governance. Their corporation tax is 12.5% (already low by EU standards) but they told Apple they didn't have to pay even that much.