Tim Cook Told Trump Tech Employees Are 'Nervous' About Immigration (cnbc.com) 329
Behind the scenes at the White House tech CEO meeting, Apple CEO Tim Cook told President Donald Trump that technology employees are "nervous" about the administration's approach to immigration, CNBC reports, citing a source familiar with the exchange. From the report: The source said the president told the CEOs on Monday that the Senate's health-care bill needs "more heart." That would be a second known instance of the president criticizing the GOP plan in private meetings. To that, the source said, Cook replied that the immigration approach by the administration also "needs more heart." Cook cited the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, which is under review by the Trump administration. He also said people in tech and their co-workers were nervous about their status, and added that it "would be great" if the president could "send them a signal." Here's what executives of Amazon, Google, and Microsoft said.
Tech employee here (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah I'm nervous. I'm nervous about foreigners taking good tech jobs. Hopefully Trump can put an end to it.
Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Insightful)
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So does Apple have "heart" and give 100% covered health care to it's employees too? Because although the health plan is good, it's not covered completely:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Bene... [glassdoor.com]
Sounds like Tim wants the Senate to do something he isn't willing to do himself.
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Re:Tech employee here (Score:4, Interesting)
European here.
Healthcare is a public service, not a corporate one.
Cook should pay salaries and taxes, and the gov't should do the rest.
The idea that Americans consider healthcare an employer's responsibility is simply awkward from our point of view.
Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Insightful)
Cook should pay salaries and taxes, and the gov't should do the rest.
Considering he isn't doing the taxes part, I'd say he's trying to avoid ALL responsibility.
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Conscription was never an element.
So what happens if not enough people want to be doctors? Wait times grow arbitrarily. (This is also a problem in the US for some specialties, but it illustrates my point).
You need a system for rationing the available care-providing resources. You need a system for deciding how much to fund care and research. A market-based system couples these, giving an optimal answer. The current US system is the worst of both worlds, because health insurance is procured by companies, not by consumers. No market sign
Re:Tech employee here (Score:4, Informative)
Conscription was never an element.
So what happens if not enough people want to be doctors? Wait times grow arbitrarily. (This is also a problem in the US for some specialties, but it illustrates my point).
You need a system for rationing the available care-providing resources. You need a system for deciding how much to fund care and research. A market-based system couples these, giving an optimal answer. The current US system is the worst of both worlds, because health insurance is procured by companies, not by consumers. No market signal, and some people aren't covered. The only worse idea is the O-care exchanges.
the market is terrible for this. it results in gougers like Martin Shkreli. or the deplorables running EpiPen. capitalism demands making an immediate profit in the short term with no care for the long term - the absolute opposite of what health care should be about.
Re:Tech employee here (Score:4, Insightful)
capitalism has existed for a few hundred years (the dutch were selling stocks in the 17th century for example) -- yet those examples you cited are symptoms of something that's only really been happening fairly recently.
i'd be more apt blame modern business's absolute lack of civic responsibility, MBA programs, and of course globalism.
Bear in mind guys like ford and vanderbilt basically built this country; sure they were greedy fucking cunts, but society as a whole benefited from that greed. It wasn't until MBA's started getting shat out, that the race-to-the-bottom mentality that we are plagued by today took over.
But that's not a problem with capitalism per se, more like a society which above all cherishes instant gratification (and rewards it).
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A bit of morality mixed in with capitalism is what we look at when we say capitalism works. Remove that and you have what Conrad wrote about in "Heart of Darkness", and a pile of other examples elsewhere.
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It's not a new thing at all. Back in the industrial revolution the market failed to even deliver a safe work environment where a person's life and limbs were valued enough to be protected.
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Doctors have social status because they make vast sums. Remove the money, remove the status. This is why software developer can be a higher-status job in India than doctor or lawyer.
Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Interesting)
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Yeah...I"m of the thought that most immigrant tech workers are NOT here as illegal aliens, and are not in imminent in danger of being deported.
Stop challenging the narrative! Trump is an evil, bigoted, racist, homophobic Islamophobe who wants to kill everyone who isn't a straight white evangelical! Anyone who doesn't agree is an evil, bigoted, racist, homophobic Islamophobe who wants to kill everyone who isn't a straight white evangelical!
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That's a good thing, so long as government contracts are for citizens only, right?
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Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Insightful)
And do you know why there's going to be a shortage? Because young people don't want to go into IT, because IT jobs are being paid low wages to foreign workers.
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How about getting paid crazy wages to ensure that sorry asses like you get your pay check ever week?
Without IT, most businesses would come to a screeching halt. Managers that treat It like their janitorial staff have already paid the price. [cnn.com]
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Why is it supply and demand only works for Capital (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Tech employee here (Score:4, Insightful)
Labor is vastly undervalued in America.
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Carl's Jr already doesn't employ _any_ burger flippers. Conveyor grills are cheap.
Low skill labor is overpaid already.
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You know, a McDonalds won't be around long without a burger flipper.
But the burger flipper can be easily replaced by someone willing to accept a similar wage.
There is plenty of room for that wage to grow before it becomes financially better to not run the McDonalds.
It doesn't need to grow much to price burgers out of the market, and people will eat something else that requires less labor. Or the McDonalds franchisee will switch to an automatic grilling machine. Or hire fewer but more productive people.
Go to a Walmart and look at the people working there. My local store has one worker in a wheelchair, and a few that look and act like they have Down's Syndrome. Raising wages wo
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Walmart description checks out. Made me lol - out loud in my quiet office.
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Considering he wrote "Made me laugh out loud out loud in my quiet office", I think he's part of said group.
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Agreed. The only reason labor is so cheap in other countries is due to lack of safety standards and the low standards of living for the workers.
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I expect you know exactly Jack Shit about IT.
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Excuse me, but I know Jack. He's a great guy, good fit for the job and all - BUT - don't talk to him about Linux or you'll never hear the end of it.
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You are right, but only if IT was truly a 9-5 job.
Depends on where you are in the food chain. My current government IT is 7-3 to avoid the crazy Silicon Valley commute. I'm also not allowed to work more than 40 hours per week. I haven't done overtime in 10+ years.
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GP must be in the six figures. Pretty standard for a little more money as he stated.
Re:Tech employee here (Score:4, Interesting)
This.
Look, anyone with a computer science degree has probably learned between six and forty computing languages and mastered them in his or her lifetime.
Stop bringing in foreign experts - who rarely are - and start investing in our own human capital.
Reminds me of the days, two years after Java was released, where job postings asked for five years of Java programming experience.
Oh, and start actually hiring women. They can code. And, no, they don't want to be your work girlfriend. It's a job.
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Oh, and start actually hiring women. They can code. And, no, they don't want to be your work girlfriend. It's a job.
As Barbie proves [sfdc99.com].
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This. And aren't women cheaper to employ then men? /sarcasm :)
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Actually they earn more money for the same role, and bring much higher risk to the company. But thanks for playing anyways!
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Even if they are poor? For the same amount of study they can get into law, medicine, or become a veterinarian.
Thats standing and pride in their own family, local community. The ability to get a better wage and later set their own hours.
US computer work has to return to an engineering profession. With a real wage and standing in the wider community.
Get a security clearance, get some university work, sell what people outside the USA can never off
Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Funny)
Socialists wouldn't do the same? Oh, Rights. Forgot. Governments always act in the best interest of the governed. Got that. My Bad.
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100$ Really the answer is to be found somewhere in between 100% socialism and unrestricted laissez-faire capitalism, b
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Lower wages are not a function of capitalism.
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Lower wages are not a function of capitalism.
Yeah go check out the wage gap and working conditions in the golden gilded age.... a time of pure unbridled capitalism. A wide earning gap between rich and working poor, horrendous working and safety conditions, 10 hour work days x 6 days week. Political influence was available for the taking by those who were able to pay.
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Why are US universities not covering that? Or why is vocational education not providing a path way into been an IT worker?
Its more failure of educators and employees.
Foreign workers do not help bring more new US workers into the sector. All they do is drive wages, standards and quality down.
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Construction is booming and will continue to do so until banks run a foul in real estate again.
How long will the boom last without workers?
http://www.forconstructionpros.com/latest-news/news/20865090/25-states-and-dc-lose-construction-jobs-in-may-amid-skilled-worker-shortage [forconstructionpros.com]
Re:Tech employee here (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, if you didn't have so many illegal aliens working for lower wages and, often, being paid under the table....you'd have Americans working in construction again, I hear this from friends that want to do that work, but can't afford to any longer due to the illegals suppressing wages.
Construction jobs are not jobs that American's don't want...as is often brought up.
They want them, but at reasonable true market driven wages like they used to be.
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They want them, but at reasonable true market driven wages like they used to be.
Not that I completely disagree with what you say, but...
1) "Reasonable" is a very subjective word. What's reasonable for some people may not be reasonable for others. Clearly, wages being paid right now must be, to some degree, considered "reasonable" by at least some people (since they are working for such wages);
2) The current state of wages is truly "market driven". In a TRULY free, no-barriers, labor market, you'll get such situations: if there's lots of supply of labor, wages tend to go down. That's wh
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Nope. The Italians, Irish, and Germans you mention were all new citizens. Back when America had a virtuous policy of more-or-less open immigration. Poem on the Statue of Liberty & all that.
Nowadays we have "guest workers" instead of new citizens. Indentured servants who will go the fuck back home after they've done their work of suppressing wages for Americans. With this change there's an entirely different set of economic incentives on both sides.
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Agreed. I hate that companies can legally bring in workers to take our jobs at a fraction of our pay.
Re: Tech employee here (Score:2)
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Sure... (Score:4, Insightful)
...upper management is nervous about the administration's approach to immigration, maybe. Those of us on the ground are nervous about immigration in a different way, like some H1B replacement trainings.
Fuck you, Tim Cook. Eat the rich.
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They needn't be (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump's entire cabinet is comprised of billionaires and Goldman Sachs people. The swamp is not getting drained. Face it, we got Hilary's economics with the right wing's Health Care and social issues slants.
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Yeah, sadly, it looks like Trump has no intention of keeping his promises on meaningful H1B reform. Oh well, I always gave it about a 30% chance he would follow through at best. Better than the 0% chance that Hillary Clinton would have done anything to reform the H1B program, but ultimately useless either way.
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Yeah, sadly, it looks like Trump has no intention of keeping his promises on meaningful H1B reform. Oh well, I always gave it about a 30% chance he would follow through at best. Better than the 0% chance that Hillary Clinton would have done anything to reform the H1B program, but ultimately useless either way.
For Pete's sake... Trump has been stymied by the courts just trying to institute a pause in entries by people for a number of countries for some things he said during the campaign (when his opponent could issue said order, because She didn't say something during the campaign).. What makes you think the courts will allow him to enforce any kind of limits on immigration? His opponents will just run off to the 9th Circus and get his orders reversed...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The changes to US law can be seen over the years.
US courts are now taking into consideration the feelings of people with no legal standing outside the USA who want to enter the USA.
Law has not changed, US policy is the same, the US courts are just been very political.
He could go on twitter and demand action (Score:2)
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Yeah, fuck the spouses of legal immigrants! They're bankrupting our country with all their damn taxes and productivity and contributions to insurance pools we don't need.
We're not talking about spouses of immigrants (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:We're not talking about spouses of immigrants (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no Labor shortages, especially when the labor participation rates are at 40 year lows. The demand doesn't want to pay for the supply. Pure and simple. So they change the supply curve by importing cheaper labor. This is and has been, always the case.
The fix for "skilled IT" labor is to require businesses to pay a huge tax (20% wage/salary/benefits) for H1B visas as well as increase the filing fee for every H1B visa that they request. I'm pretty sure that they will find qualified US employees without having to resort to H1B. Taxes (like this) are completely avoidable. We could use the taxes to lower taxes on workers or something actually useful to the common person.
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I was gonna rebut with SecDef Mattis, but according to Forbes, the fucker's worth 5 million.
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Trump hasn't done anything of substance to even mildly inconvenience the wealthy, and the H1-B program (which, let's face it, is what Timmy's talking about) is no different.
No. Cook might be concerned about H1-B (though I think he's a good guy and is probably not as cynical as you put things). But employees are concerned about whether they, as an American citizen, can travel to visit their relatives in a banned state without being hassled about getting back to their home. Or whether their relatives can visit them at home. Or whether a non-citizen (greencard holder or on a working visa) will have their papers confiscated by customs officials with no recourse. Or whether th
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If you want skilled people you need to allow their spouses in and to work. Most other countries you are competing with do that, because why would someone with valuable skills bring their value to you if it means ripping up their family or their spouse having to suspend their career?
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T is doing it Wrong [Re:They needn't be] (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a reason for this: both parties are in on it. Democrats see them or their offspring more likely to vote Democrat; and businesses see them as cheap labor, and therefore (legally) bribe Republicans to look the other way. Thus, Republican representatives pretend to be appalled for their voting base, but have kept making excuses not to sign anything when the opportunity has arisen.
Trump is doing it wrong. Directly booting people out and breaking up families is both mean and bad politics. A law needs to go after businesses with some legal teeth against owners and hiring managers, along with an army of inspectors. Much fewer illegals would come if they couldn't get jobs. It would take longer to see results than direct boot-outs, but eventually has the same effect.
But, business will never go for that: they'll lobby and bribe to stop it, and they have deep pockets. Trump seems too pro-business to fight that fight, and so does the street-hunter thing instead. Bigly sad.
And Congress needs get off their butt and fund the hiring of more border guards. That's more effective than a wall. Tunnels and ladders will pop up. Again, both parties have made silly excuses not to fund guards in the past.
There are multiple entrenched special interests that collectively put up barriers (no pun int.) to real solutions.
Which "Tech Employees" are we talking about? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm a "Tech Employee" and American citizen, but many of my co-workers were born in other countries and I am very nervous that Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric is causing them problems. I am nervous that many of my talented co-workers may have problems staying in the US, and that future potential-co-workers will not be hired because of the legal changes.
Note that some companies abuse the H1B visa program, and I'm happy with changes to fix that. But what I hear is "all immigrants BAD", which is stupid. I fe
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what I hear is "all immigrants BAD", which is stupid. I feel like the prevailing attitude is "the US's borders should have been closed the day after MY ancestors got here".
It's pretty much this, yeah. Economics is complex and difficult. People want to believe that you have a solid linkage between lever A and trapdoor B; it's not like that. It takes me several hours of research and a few pages of dissertation to work out how moving imports to American manufacture affects America, and it's always three parts: it makes all Americans poorer, no matter what we pay the factory workers; it might create jobs if we pay the Americans as little as possible, and will net-reduce Amer
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somehow in the past decade, wanting to protect our borders from ILLEGAL immigrants, has turned into "all immigration is bad"
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Nobody is saying that, but you can't sustain an "anti-immigrant" narrative without claiming that significant plurality is against all immigrants & immigration. And once you get people to believe in that one, then it's pretty easy to convince them that this ephemeral anti-immigrant group is really opposed to immigration because they're racist. Once you've made that association, you're home free -- now anyone who questions immigration on any level can simply be disregarded as a racist.
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somehow in the past decade, wanting to protect our borders from ILLEGAL immigrants, has turned into "all immigration is bad"
Our immigration laws suck and make it insanely hard for people to immigrate legally. If you give people no way to come legally they'll come illegally.
If you want to convince me that you really favor legal immigration, you need to start by learning about the problems with our immigration system and fix that. Heck, making it possible to immigrate legally will fix most of the illegal immigration problem! If you just fight to bring the hammer down on illegal immigrants while simultaneously maintaining the law
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I'm a "Tech Employee" and American citizen, but many of my co-workers were born in other countries and I am very nervous that Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric is causing them problems. I am nervous that many of my talented co-workers may have problems staying in the US, and that future potential-co-workers will not be hired because of the legal changes.
Note that some companies abuse the H1B visa program, and I'm happy with changes to fix that. But what I hear is "all immigrants BAD", which is stupid. I feel like the prevailing attitude is "the US's borders should have been closed the day after MY ancestors got here".
If you're in the US, you are the descendant of immigrants. (Though full-blooded native americans at least have a stringer claim than the rest of us.)
I was born and raised in the US (some of my ancestors arrived here over 300 years ago). I have been an IT professional for 17 years. Over 60% of the workers at my office are foreign nationals, while 80% of project managers are foreigners. My company has a Chief Diversity Officer and designates a Female Worker of the Month (there is no male employee of the month, or just employee of the month).
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If you're in the US, you are the descendant of immigrants.
Unless you're the one who came here. Then you are the immigrant.
And what about those of us who were here before there was a United States?
"Send them a signal"? (Score:2)
If Tim Cook hasn't noticed that Trump's been sending bloody obvious signals for the past two plus years, he haven't been paying attention.
Heart and Courage (Score:2)
Cook replied that the immigration approach by the administration also "needs more heart." Cook cited the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, which is under review by the Trump administration. He also said people in tech and their co-workers were nervous about their status, and added that it "would be great" if the president could "send them a signal."
Cook really has his finger on the pulse of what workers want (lower H1B wages), just as he knows what customers want (fewer useful ports, no headphone jack, and expensive, complicated earphones). It's definitely not just what he wants or anything.
Of course .... (Score:3, Informative)
If you're a legal U.S. citizen OR you have a legal work visa, I don't think you have anything to be "nervous" about?
Yeah, the mainstream media likes to work people up into a frenzy over "what COULD happen" based on the conjecture of reporters with no first-hand knowledge of anything. But just listening to Trump's own speeches (which are so poorly spoken, it's obvious they come from him and aren't the result of careful editing and vetting like most presidential speeches) -- he keeps clarifying that all of his immigration issues are about stopping the "undocumented" people.
Last I checked, Apple wasn't employing a bunch of illegal immigrants who have no green cards?
And quite frankly, I've been a bit disappointed that "Mr. Build-a-Wall" has said so little about cracking down on the number of H1B visas we keep granting people to come over here and do our tech jobs. That's one area where it's FAR from provable that we just don't have anyone in America capable of doing the work....
H1Bs (Score:3)
Here, it's not illegal immigration, but rather, H1B employees that are the topic here.
From a political POV, the argument has been that H1B workers are used to simply undercut American workers - both citizens & permanent residents. Note that in the Labor Certification process, which a company has to go through while applying for these visas, they have to demonstrate that there are no American citizens or permanent residents available to take that job. That argument is badly undercut when you have ou
Re:H1Bs (Score:5, Insightful)
Acme Inc. can't just replace its IT staff with H-1Bs. What it can do is replace its internal IT department with a contracted IT services group. Enter Wile E. Coyote Services, a company that hires H-1B workers, who bids on the contract. When WEC Services wins because it can bid cheaply due to using lower-paid H-1B workers, it takes over the IT work formerly done by American employees of Acme Inc - whose jobs are now being done by WEC's H-1Bs.
A salary floor might go a good way towards fixing some of the problem, though part of the problem isn't because the program is bad as is, so much as it's not being enforced. WEC is already skirting the requirements and is likely making dubious justifications for hiring those lower-paid staff in the first place. We need a Justice Department (and an Administration) that is willing to hit them with a giant boulder, because if the rules change but no one enforces them, it won't really matter in the end.
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That can be done with a few select "newspaper ads" over time to show that part of the law was fully explored before bringing in people from outside the USA.
If that aspect was in any way legally difficult to show, very few workers would be able to get into the USA.
Re "One is that it's impossible to find American workers"
Tell good US universities what the USA needs. What skills all the
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what I suggest is a way to enforce the current rules, which are 100% ignored.
how can we do this? start a 'secret shopper' program. you know, stores have fake customers that work for management and they check on the employees to see if they are following rules and treating customers correctly.
do the same for the h1b farce. the US government should hire a bunch of out-of-work americans who have decent resumes, decent experience and SHOULD be hirable, but they - for 'some reason' - are not. give them jobs
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If you're a legal U.S. citizen OR you have a legal work visa, I don't think you have anything to be "nervous" about?
Are you not thinking of the tech employees with legal work visas who went home for their holidays as normal, but then weren't allowed back into the US because of the short-lived immigration ban? And the tech companies which advised their legal-work-visa-holding employees not to travel abroad for fear of not being allowed back?
Yep, there were a lot of nervous people.
Again? (Score:2)
Do we really have to report on every fucking thing Tim Cook says? Come on, msmash... This is ridiculous.
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ZING
Nervous about what??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nervous about enforcing laws?
Nervous about actually vetting immigrants?
Nervous about letting immigrants from other countries have a fair chance at entry, instead of being at an inherent disadvantage because they do not have the privilege of physical proximity that illegal Mexican immigrants have?
To me it seem utterly crazy to be "nervous" about treating immigration as seriously as any other country on Earth does... you try just wandering into Canada and looking for work and see how well that works for you.
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Technological progress is in fact halted by favoring the poorest of the poor over more socially advanced and skilled immigration (even when both groups come from Mexico).
They should be nervous. (Score:4, Interesting)
When there's a policy that will favor citizens instead of guest workers, nerves should be a bit frazzled.
That's how we know Trump has chosen the right policy. Besides, it's time that globalists like Cook show a little heart for citizens - by respecting the law and enforcing it consistently.
They went too far replacing people (Score:2, Insightful)
When a university replaces their tech workers with H1B workers, it has gotten out of hand. These positions were not empty, they had competent people already that were being pushed out.
Tech needs a career progression ladder (Score:5, Insightful)
When I started out in IT (back sometime after the last Ice Age,) it was very possible to start out as a help desk person, and work your way up learning as you went. I know, because I started out with a non-CS degree and made the hops from help desk to desktop support to (essentially) a data center operator, then several levels of sysadmin and finally where I am now as a senior engineer/architect. The thing I'm worried about is that current generations will see no future in an IT career and choose not to pursue it. One of the contributing factors is the limited prospects for low-end IT jobs needed to get the skills you have to possess at the higher levels. If help desk work is offshored or a minimum wage job, fewer people will go into the field and gain the kind of OJT you only get in the trenches.
I absolutely don't hold myself out to be some super-genius, but I have noticed that there are a lot more "senior architect" level jobs being filled by people with a much lower skill and experience level than you would expect. This makes sense if there's a whole bunch of missing rungs in the career ladder -- a CS grad will BS his way into a higher level position than they normally would have because of this. This is where you get the architect-level people who just buy whatever's in the Gartner Magic Quadrant because they can't objectively evaluate vendor claims. I've had to work very hard to stay hands on in the company I work for, because the assumption is that once you reach my level all you do is hand-wave a few diagrams and buy million-dollar software tools to badly automate Function X. My boss knows this, but it's hard convincing those above our level that it's worth investing in the talent pool.
I'm one of those crazy people who really likes my job and loves learning and teaching newbies what I know. I also think companies would be fighting fewer fires if the labor market wasn't so distorted at the low end by the body shops and outsourcing companies.
Executives are Worried (Score:3)
That Trump will prevent them from outsourcing all work to India, and bringing in Indians for 1/2 the salary of home grown talent.
Don;t believe anonymous sources (Score:5, Interesting)
There are some many 'anonymous sources' in the news today you don't know what to believe. When I see those words I automatically think 'fake news'. If it true just come and say it.
BTW: An anonymous source says that /. is about to make me their CEO.
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So you work for a company that doesn't do continuous integration or code reviews and that for some reason can't check on the quality of engineers work well enough to fire people who can't write code but you expect me to believe that 2 Pakistani developers were the source of all your troubles?
why is this down modded? (Score:2)