New MacBook Pros Max Out At 16GB RAM Due To Battery Life Concerns (macrumors.com) 319
The new MacBooks Pros have been improved in nearly every way -- except when it comes to RAM capacity. With faster, more energy efficient Skylake processors, faster SSDs, and better GPUs, one would think the amount of RAM wouldn't be capped off at 16GB. However, that is the case. The reason why the MacBook Pros continue to max out at 16GB RAM is due to battery life concerns, according to marketing chief Phil Schiller. MacRumors reader David emailed Apple to get an explanation: Question from David: "The lack of a 32GB BTO option for the new MBPs raised some eyebrows and caused some concerns (me included). Does ~3GBps bandwidth to the SSD make this a moot issue? I.e. memory paging on a 16GB system is so fast that 32GB is not a significant improvement?" Schiller's answer: "Thank you for the email. It is a good question. To put more than 16GB of fast RAM into a notebook design at this time would require a memory system that consumes much more power and wouldn't be efficient enough for a notebook. I hope you check out this new generation MacBook Pro, it really is an incredible system."
For the 2016 MacBook Pro, Apple was able to reach "all-day battery life," which equates to 10 hours of wireless web use or iTunes movie playback. That's an hour improvement over the previous generation in the 15-inch machine, and a small step back in the 13-inch machine. While none of Apple's portable machines offer more than 16GB RAM, 32GB of RAM is a high-end custom upgrade option in the 27-inch iMac.
For the 2016 MacBook Pro, Apple was able to reach "all-day battery life," which equates to 10 hours of wireless web use or iTunes movie playback. That's an hour improvement over the previous generation in the 15-inch machine, and a small step back in the 13-inch machine. While none of Apple's portable machines offer more than 16GB RAM, 32GB of RAM is a high-end custom upgrade option in the 27-inch iMac.
Bad Reason (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Bad Reason (Score:5, Interesting)
Well it's actually Intel's fault for only supporting LPDDR3 instead of LPDDR4 in Skylake. They choose to do this because LPDDR4 memory is more expensive, and from this article, http://www.fool.com/investing/... [fool.com] it says that an increased cost of RAM would result in one of the following:
1. PC vendors will cut corners elsewhere to accommodate the more expensive memory within a fixed price point, potentially hurting the user experience.
2. PC vendors will raise prices, which could lead to lower sales and thus reduced processor sales for Intel.
3. PC vendors' margins will contract.
Which Intel didn't want to do. That combined with the delays for the release of Skylake and its successor Cannonlake (which does support LPDDR4) leave us with the current situation.
Re: Bad Reason (Score:5, Interesting)
No, the reason is simpler. They dont want to feed Samsung as it is the de facto only serious lpddr4 maker now
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Based on what, Apple being a major Samsung customer for many years now? Sounds more like simply facile hatorade, given the AC's response below....
Re: Bad Reason (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Bad Reason (Score:5, Funny)
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When it is also stupid, other terms are usually applied...
But that seems to be the new Apple strategy: Do utterly stupid things, and then praise them as "brave" and "innovative". I fear that the Apple fanbois will buy these product nonetheless, because they have no actual understanding of technology and hence cannot detect or understand how they are getting ripped off.
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98% of the time people are plugged into wall power. Who cares. Plus, 32 GB isn't always enough. 64 would be awesome.
The problem is the stats for battery life in reviews. Those don't really matter any way. After 1 year, the battery life will drop by 40% because the batteries are shit. After 3 years, it goes to about 20 minutes.
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How about 3 VMs? Or financial modeling and big databases.
Re: Bad Reason (Score:5, Informative)
Even though **you** don't do anything useful or interesting with your laptop doesn't mean the rest of us don't.
With a powerful laptop I can go visit a potential customer and show them the product/service without depending on any external factors. Such an advantage is huge.
With a powerful laptop I can carry around a massive dataset and work on the programming problem while en route to a conference.
With a powerful laptop I can simply sit at home, at my work area, and not care about the local internet going down or the power going out: I can just focus on my work and get it done.
Re: Bad Reason (Score:4, Informative)
"Again, I'm not sure where you live, but I live in a developed country,"
Global. I travel and work anywhere in the world. Your first-world luxuries are not available everywhere.
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For me, VMs. I typically run at least two CentOS VMs, or a Window 2012 Server + CentOS. Currently I've got those as bare bones as possible on my 2014 16GB MBP - easy with a CentOS, not so much with the Windows Server (regardless of whether you have the gui on/off). Each of these VMs is running very active network/disk-based processes, along with some Java-based applications, and on top of this my host system has typically at least two different IDEs going for developing against these systems. With 32GB,
Re:Bad Reason (Score:4, Insightful)
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Don't act retarded. People run VMs inside modern machines. At least they do provided the machine has enough RAM in it to run the VMs.
It has ALWAYS been important to have as much RAM as possible connected to your CPUs. That doesn't change because Apple can't keep up with the latest silicon.
Re:Bad Reason (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Bad Reason (Score:2)
Oh your erection is small peasant! I have 128 gigs of ram and my dick is bigger this year for you are weak and I am mighty! [youtu.be]
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Apple always has been skimpy about RAM for decades, they sell models of computers with half or less minimum amount needed.
Re:Bad Reason (Score:5, Funny)
Macs have shit specs and always have. This one is no different.
You clearly didn't read the summary. This new Macbook is an incredible machine. This quote comes straight from Apple, and since Apple is the manufacturer of that machine, they're the ones who know it best, so you can rely on their assessment.
it's OK.... (Score:5, Funny)
It's OK, 32GB of laptop memory is $160. [newegg.com], and 64GB is about $360. Since this is a product targeted at professional users, I'm sure I can open the back and swap out the RAM, if I want to give up a few minutes of battery life for it.
Err.... right?
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There's no need for un-soldering; I understand they will be coming out with a special dongle that will allow you to add more memory.
Re:it's OK.... (Score:5, Funny)
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Yes, but don't expect to be able to charge your phone at the same time. You'll need the $75 dongle for that. $90 if you want the one that adds a connector for third party escape keys.
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There's no need for un-soldering; I understand they will be coming out with a special dongle that will allow you to add more memory.
Let's hope their 16GB expansion pack doesn't wobble like the old ZX81 (Timex 1000) 16KB expansion pack did... :-)
Re: it's OK.... (Score:3)
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Wow....for a minute there it felt like Jurassic Park in here....
Re: it's OK.... (Score:2)
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I did the same, except on a VIC-20. Ahh, magazine games and cassette tape drives...
Re:it's OK.... (Score:5, Funny)
No need for a dongle. I don't recall the link, but search YouTube -- you can already find a video on how to add more memory with just a hammer drill, a 1/4" masonry bit, an impact driver, and a 4" x 7/16" lag bolt. The memory is already in the MacBook, Apple just disables it so you don't even have to buy more memory. Check it out -- I tried it on a pre-production model (which was the last rev so it is identical to the production models) and it really works.
If you can't find the video -- it's pretty simple to do so play around with it a bit. I seem to recall you use the drill to drill/hammer a 1/4" hole 3" deep in the middle of the right edge 1 1/2" from the back and then use the impact driver to drive the lag bolt in to the full depth of the hole. Do be very careful not to drive the lag bolt in more than 3" as that may damage the MacBook. You can then remove the lag bolt (who would be crazy enough to want a bolt head/shaft sticking out of their notebook?). This action will have activated the "enable all memory" switch (it's inside an potted assembly so you can't get to it easily -- hence the lag bolt and drill). You may want to buff out the case where you drilled through it so it looks factory fresh. Really, the only trick is to make sure you drill at right angles to the case.
Re:it's OK.... (Score:4, Funny)
I hate to reply to my own posts, but I realize I left out an important pro tip.
There are some reports that people who have done this had some problems.
Fortunately, I did extensive research and experimentation that reveals that a few people have had problems because they were using inferior drill bits. It's really best to use Monster drill bits -- everyone who uses them has been successful. Yes, Monster bits cost more than Harbor Freight "Warrior" bits, but they are well worth the cost as they insure that you won't have single bit errors on your newly exposed memory. It's possible DEWALT bits would work also, but why take the chance just to save few hundred dollars (pounds for you Brexiting Brits) per drill bit?
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While I know you're being funny, it is worth noting that there may be a chipset or UEFI limitation capping it at 16GB as well.
Just another example (Score:5, Insightful)
of Apple ramming their design decisions down our throats.
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Yeah tell me about it! USB, Wifi, SSD, thunderbolt, multitouch, all crap! We were doing just fine without any of that. And now just look at what they force us to use!
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If you choose to use macOS, you are forced to endure Apple's decisions regarding the hardware.
For everything else, there's Hackintosh.
No Escape (Score:2)
Huh?! Since when were you forced to buy Apple products?
Well if you buy one of the new MacBooks you'll find that now there is literally no escape so it's best to get out now while you still can.
Re: Just another example (Score:2)
I don't get it, could you explain the allusion to me?
What Mr Schiller Meant to Say ... (Score:2)
Well then... (Score:5, Insightful)
Make it one millimeter thicker. Fucking a.
Now ask me how I think iPhone battery life could be improved...
Given the number of programmers (Score:2)
Form over function again (Score:3, Insightful)
And this is called "Pro"??
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apple needs to have real pro hardware and not this (Score:5, Insightful)
apple needs to have real pro hardware and not this have to make it thinner shit.
Re:apple needs to have real pro hardware and not t (Score:5, Informative)
apple needs to have real pro hardware and not this have to make it thinner shit.
Exactly. At the root, his answer is "To put more than 16GB of fast RAM into a notebook design at this time would require we make it an angstrom thicker and we'd rather chew off our own testicles than do that so fuck you very much and please keep sending us money."
Dubious... (Score:3)
Re:Dubious... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: Dubious... (Score:2)
16GB is pretty good (Score:2, Informative)
I would think the Dell XPS line is probably the nearest competitor to these laptops and the 13 inch comes with 4GB or 8GB of RAM while the 15 inch comes with 8GB or 16GB. So, in this case, I don't really think that Apple has done anything too boneheaded. Though, having said that, my 12.5" ThinkPad from 2011 has had 16GB of RAM since the day it arrived. So, Apple doesn't really deserve any praise for 16GB either.
Re:16GB is pretty good (Score:5, Informative)
> I would think the Dell XPS line is probably the nearest competitor to these laptops
Ok...
> while the 15 inch comes with 8GB or 16GB.
Here's one with 32 gigs of RAM:
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop... [dell.com]
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And how is battery life compared to the new 16 GB MacBook Pro? I will be surprised if it's as good or better.
Re: 16GB is pretty good (Score:3)
On some level... who cares? I can plug in rhe xps if it runs low. I cant add ram to the mac.
Dell precision laptops can run xeons with 64gb ecc if i want. Its nice to have choice so you can get what you need and make your own decisions about weight / battery vs perfomance. Dell has xps and precision so you can get what ylu need.
Apple just has something like xps... and its less capable then the xps. Its a joke next to the precision.
And its not like apple even had to make it thinner. They could have added ram
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Nope I'm not. I've consistently said that 2012 MBP I have (with gigabit and a DVDRW) was perfectly fine as a form factor.
In 2016... the same form factor would be awesome, keep the ethernet port, keep the magsave, use all the extra space for more battery... and an extra SSD bay, upgradeable ram sockets.
My 2015 macbook pro... its thinner and faster and has better battery than my 2012 one. But I'd much rather it have been thicker with even MORE battery, upgradeable ram, and an ethernet port.
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Who cares? The point isn't the battery life. The point is that if you are looking at the "nearest competitor", they do, in fact, offer 32 GB of RAM. I'd be surprised if Apple fucked up battery life, or that the interviewee was incorrect about his reasoning. But claiming that Apple's competitors don't go up to 32 GB, which is what the post I replied to was saying, is bullshit.
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Here's one with 32 gigs of RAM
I'm not sure how I missed that, thanks.
Re: 16GB is pretty good (Score:2)
The 15" XPS models have a 32 GB option.
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There, the comparison is less flattering. By the standards of consumer laptops, it's undeniably gorgeous and likely to be off well above average quality; and it will be thinner and lighter than the mobile workstations of the world; but that doesn't change the fact
Energy efficient? (Score:3)
Broadwell 84 TDP
Skylake 99 TDP
Don't worry. (Score:4, Funny)
Because the Macbook Pro specs are inferior to top end models from other manufacturers, we can expect the Apple laptops to be discounted appropriately.
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No, the SSD cannot fix this (Score:5, Insightful)
SSD speeds (and it is really access time we are talking here, bandwidth is pretty irrelevant for paging) is somewhere between traditional disks and RAM, but closer to disk than RAM. This means paging will be a bit faster, but still dog-slow. For Swapping, it is not much better either. You cannot fake RAM well, although countless bad engineers have tried and countless unscrupulous marketeers have tried to sell the inadequate results as the next revolution.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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More durable? have you tried to break a unibody mac?
Depressing (Score:5, Insightful)
I am writing this on an early 2009 17 inch matte screen Macbook Pro. DIY upgrades to a 512 SSD and 8GB RAM cost about $500 total. With a refurbished battery it still gets 8 hours of charge.
What has Apple accomplished in eight years? A smaller screen that has distracting glare and reflection, removal of the best feature (Magsafe), no escape key, and a modest boost in performance.
Oh yes, its also thinner because that is the most important feature in a professional tool.
No (well, almost) Glare on newer MacBook Pro (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a 17" Matte Macbook Pro also, and a late 2013 15" MacBook Pro with an anti-glare screen - it's not quite as good as the matte but very close, in practical use almost never notice glare on the 15". It's not like matte meant no-glare either, just greatly reduced as with anti-glare coatings...
I would have loved to see the 17" form factor revived, who knows perhaps in some future iteration we'll see it again. At least the actual screen resolution of the 15" (old and new) is identical to the 17", I just keep the scaling stuff off and have a bit smaller text sizes.
Also all of the hate over no ESC is totally incorrect. You can get to the traditional FN row (including ESC) at any time just by pressing the FN key in the corner. But the reality is you'd pretty much never need to do that because any key where ESC could be used will leave ESC in the TouchBar.
It is sad to see Magsafe go though, that I will miss. I like the flexibility of being able to charge from any port but I feel like the safety and usability of Magsafe was worth more than the flexibility gained. A great idea for a USB-C charging cable that had a magnetic breakaway connector in the middle...
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Also all of the hate over no ESC is totally incorrect. You can get to the traditional FN row (including ESC) at any time just by pressing the FN key in the corner. But the reality is you'd pretty much never need to do that because any key where ESC could be used will leave ESC in the TouchBar.
I'm using ALL of the functional keys all the time. In particular, F1 is a shortcut to bring up iTerm which I'm using in ALL contexts. So now it'll become impossible.
It's also not clear what "just press FN" means. Does it mean that Esc will become FN+Esc all the time? Cause that's how I read it.
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> I'm using ALL of the functional keys all the time. In particular, F1 is a shortcut to bring up iTerm which I'm using in ALL contexts. So now it'll become impossible.
No. Now it means you'll be able to put a little "button" called "iTerm" where F1 currently is so that it's even easier to recognize that that's what the button does...
I also use all of my F keys... have each one mapped to a specific task in Emacs. I'm looking forward to making them actually say what they do (and be context sensitive... th
Re: No (well, almost) Glare on newer MacBook Pro (Score:2)
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But the reality is you'd pretty much never need to do that because any key where ESC could be used will leave ESC in the TouchBar.
So you're saying that if I run Linux, or Solaris, NetBSD or (even) Windows in a VM on one of the new Macintosh laptops, it will magically know that I am running the vi editor inside the Xterm and give me an ESC key on the glass touchstrip? Or does this only apply if I am running the latest version of whatever derivative version of vi (does Apple even support such a binary?) Appl
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16 _GB_ is plenty to run VMs. I run Linux and Windows VMs just fine on my 16GB MBP.
You'll be able to to configure the touch bar however you want. There will be _thousands_ of utility apps for changing it to do whatever you want. I guarantee you that you can force it to _always_ display an ESC key if that's what you so desire.
You will definitely be able to tell it to show an ESC key in VMware, X, Termina, etc.
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What has Apple accomplished in eight years?
Now it competes with your credit card for thinness.
Wow, very similar to me. (Score:2)
For mobile work I use an early 2011 17" with matte screen. It's now 1TB SSD + 1TB SSHD (removed the optical drive) and 16GB RAM, and I do end up paging rather often. I do marketing work for a dot-com and these days, and in the modern world that involves big data hosted on Amazon, extensive analytics, lots of R programs to cook the data, video production, lots of photoshop work, and many, many browser windows open at the same time.
I use gfxSwitcher to try to exercise some control over the graphics system and
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I've just found on the web an €630 PC laptop that comes with no OS (store brand, so the make and model wouldn't be meaningful, it's as if it'd be a Newegg branded laptop).
Core i3-6100H : same die as in the 13" MacBook Pro, 35 watts version, no turbo clocks. 2.7GHz!
Intel graphics!
17.3" 1600x900, matte panel with anti-glare. TN panel though. I've just checked this before posting!
4GB RAM
2TB 5400 rpm HDD
gigabit RJ45 ethernet
DVD drive! (can be space for HDD or cheap 2.5" SSD)
four USB type A
HDMI and VGA
empty
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Do you really think Apple designs its products in a vacuum?
The 'Pro' line certainly seems designed in world devoid of professionals.
I'm guessing 90% of their market are not hardcode techies but businesspeople and travelers for whom weight IS a serious concern
Very likely. And Apple dedicates no less than two lines of laptops (Macbook Air, Macbook) for users for whom weight is the primary concern. What is the point of the Macbook Pro? It certainly isn't top end. Nor is it lightweight compared to their other offerings. One gets the impression the Macbook Pro (as well as the Mac Pro) are dead computers cycling.
Just what is the power consumption? (Score:4, Interesting)
What is the consumption of 16 GB, 32 GB and so forth? Is it linear growth or something more extreme?
I can't (with half-serious googling) find actual wattage figures for LPDDR3 RAM,
I'd wager for some reason 32 GB is more than double 16 GB in power consumption, but not like 10x or anything, and I have a hard time believing the consumption would enough to have more than 15 minutes of battery impact over the device's useful battery life.
I'd also expect it be actually offset demands for disk I/O through caching and reduced paging, which would reduce its negative impact, although I think the use PCI-E SSDs really would decrease the user perception of paging delays for all but the most extreme use cases.
Re:Just what is the power consumption? (Score:5, Interesting)
Look at the take apart photos. The circuit board has NO MORE ROOM. Last I looked (not recently) the 32GB modules have more ICs than the 16GB. I wouldn't be surprised if Phil was confused and misinterpreted something and turned a SIZE constraint which took away battery space into a power usage constraint.
It makes far more sense as a SIZE problem than just replacing some ICs with expensive ICs. Now if those ICs existed at the time of development then I'm wrong and Apple has their heads up their asses. They couldn't put in 1 normal USB port.... I'm currently looking at alternatives because of this. I get USB flash sticks all the time without warning and I do not want to carry an adapter around all the time.
The last year GPU is disappointing but the lower heat output would make sense and I can tolerate that... I was thinking of ditching the GPU anyhow because an external GPU on thunderbolt 2 runs about 80%-90% of full speed (easily beating a laptop GPU) so version 3's speed should get close desktop performance.
All day? (Score:2)
I have a MBP Retina 15" from 2013. Even on a good day, I never get more than 3 or 4 hours on it.
Why do you need more than 16GB? (Score:2)
As sort of a curiosity, I want to ask you all, what do you need with more than 16GB? Entertain me and others, cite examples of things you do that need more than 16GB memory.
I'm asking as a person who has 16GB in their desktop machine and.. uh.. I've never seen it all get used..ever. I think I'm rather demanding of my PC too, as I run PC games of all manner, Second Life viewer, compilers, Visual Studio, etc. Not a lot of photo processing, but I do do that too, with GIMP, fussing with 6000x4000 jpg's from
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At this point, not much. Swapping out to PCIe is plenty fast. The main reason would be longevity of the hardware. If you can prop in 32GB now, you don't have to update 5 years from now. I see people with 7-10 year old MacBook Pros upgraded with memory (more than the max specified) and SSD and they still work plenty fast.
Re:Why do you need more than 16GB? (Score:5, Funny)
As sort of a curiosity, I want to ask you all, what do you need with more than 16GB? Entertain me and others, cite examples of things you do that need more than 16GB memory.
Firefox.
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Because I keep my computers longer than one hardware and OS product cycle. I've had to upgrade the RAM on every single computer I've ever owned, long before I retired the computer from use. 16GB was great a couple of years ago, and it may even be "enough" right now. A couple years from now... probably not so much. Macbook pro isn't priced as a disposable or throwaway device. If I want to put up with buying a new computer every year, I'll get a $500 refurb and throw it out / replace it annually, for the
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Editing very high resolution (RAW) images in photoshop.
Editing/Rendering 4k video.
And keep in mind that it is often not just one program consuming it all. There is often a workflow requiring several programs to be open even if they are not running simultaneously all the time.
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And no, you can't always just run them in a VM, not only is it slower (negating the point of 32gigs), but Solidworks 2016 will throw up an error if you do.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery (Score:2)
Because 640K ought to be enough for anybody.
I beg to differ (Score:5, Insightful)
The new MacBooks Pros have been improved in nearly every way
Unless you buy the smaller, cheaper Macbook Pro, (that probably should have been called an "Air Plus" or something), the new Pros have no dedicated function keys. (People are already posting instructions on how to configure a physical Escape key [macworld.com]). But you DO get a whiz-bang OLED strip that gives you, (among other things), stuff like emojis and more streamlined online payments. Also, you can't charge an iPhone with the new MacBook Pro, unless you buy a pricey adapter; and then you'll have yet another piece of hardware cruft to be broken, lost, or forgotten. How is this "improved in nearly every way"? For that matter, how does it qualify as "Pro"?
The new MacBook DOES have a stereo headphone jack though. I guess their 'courage' failed them this time. Apple should get rid of their courage altogether - their products would be the better for it. I've never liked Apple, but mostly I at least respected them. With their latest product decisions, even that respect is gone.
Again with the Thinner and lighter crap. (Score:4, Insightful)
If they kept it 3mm thicker they could have put in a battery that would have allowed 64gb ram, socketed ram and socketed M.2 SSD's AND give you 12 hours of battery life.
All for the sake of the biggest stupid in computing.
Thinner and lighter.
Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Informative)
> What are people doing that requires so much memory?
1- Multitasking
2- Running their own code that requires a lot of memory
3- VMs
4- Any or all of the above
Bonus: Ramdisking!
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Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Funny)
> What are people doing that requires so much memory?
MS Paint
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What is everyone running VMs for? When you do cross platform testing, can you possibly get enough VMs on a laptop?
Re: Good grief! (Score:2)
High-end power users expect value for their money. Apple realized there's a big part of the market who care more about glitz than capability, and don't know (or don't care) when they're buying a shiny but overpriced toy.
Re: Good grief! (Score:4, Informative)
For fuck sake. Do NOT tell me what I should or should not be doing with my fucking laptop.
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I have 31.4159 infrachronoflips of memory in my system.
Re: Oh good more news on the new MBP (Score:2)
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The thing is, if this computer uses LPDDR3 then you would need a whole different motherboard to put DDR4 on and thus have higher maximum memory capacity. If Apple had stuck to removable memory on So-DIMM, there would never have been a problem. Intel even has a solution called UniDIMM, not adopted by memory vendors but could have been if Apple laptops were to use it : it's yet another So-DIMM format, but it can takes either low voltage DDR3, DDR4 or LPDDR3. Thus solving that memory dichotomy. It's still-born