BlackBerry CEO 'Disturbed' By Apple's Hard Line On Encryption (theinquirer.net) 202
An anonymous reader writes: BlackBerry CEO John Chen said he is "disturbed" by Apple's tough approach to encryption and user privacy, warning that the firm's attitude is harmful to society. Earlier this year, Chen said in response to Apple resisting the government's demands to unlock an iPhone belonging to one of the San Bernardino shooters: "We are indeed in a dark place when companies put their reputations above the greater good." During BlackBerry's Security Summit in New York this week, Chen made several more comments about Apple's stance on encryption. "One of our competitors, we call it 'the other fruit company,' has an attitude that it doesn't matter how much it might hurt society, they're not going to help," he said. "I found that disturbing as a citizen. I think BlackBerry, like any company, should have a basic civil responsibility. If the world is in danger, we should be able to help out." He did say there was a lot of "nonsense" being reported about BlackBerry and its approach to how it handles user information. "Of course, there need to be clear guidelines. The guidelines we've adopted require legal assets. A subpoena for certain data. But if you have the data, you should give it to them," he said. "There's some complete nonsense about what we can and can't do. People are mad at us that we let the government have the data. It's absolute garbage. We can't do that." Chen also warned that mandatory back doors aren't a good idea either, hinting at the impending Investigatory Powers Bill. "There's proposed legislation in the U.S., and I'm sure it will come to the EU, that every vendor needs to provide some form of a back door. That is not going to fly at all. It just isn't," he said.
Fuck blackberry (Score:5, Insightful)
Glad their insecure piece of shit platform is nearly dead
Re:Fuck blackberry (Score:4, Insightful)
Glad their insecure piece of shit platform is nearly dead
It isn't, they just signed a 5 year deal with some US government for crisis communications.
"Crisis communications" is the main activity of Blackberry's CEO these days.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
RIM has always caved in to Government demands for access to BBM data. The CEO's stance is consistent, even as it's also stupid.
Re: Fuck blackberry (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Insecure? Since when?
Since they stopped thinking about strong encryption as being a good idea?
Re: (Score:3)
You are clearly confused about the meaning of secure. In the article, the CEO of Blackberry says their platform never has and never will be secure. Your comment is strange on a story where the CEO of Blackberry is attacking Apple for being too secure.
Here is a tip. If a backdoor exists, the platform is not secure. End of discussion. I don't really care about how well Blackberry claims to protect their backdoor. It is a weakness. Not just for government intrusion (which would be bad enough), but to al
Define "Greater Good" (Score:5, Insightful)
"We are indeed in a dark place when companies put their reputations above the greater good."
I guess Mr. Chen and Mr. Cook have very different ideas of what the greater good is.
Re:Define "Greater Good" (Score:5, Insightful)
BB is a failed company. They failed to anticipate the market, and they failed to adapt. Their last gasp is to tear down what others have built with nonsensical arguments in favor of more government surveillance.
Apparently, the US government doesn't agree. Witness SOCOM purchasing iPhones in a recent Slashdot article.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't say they failed to anticipate the market. The problem was Apple changed the playing field.
Pre-iPhone smart phones were about typing. Blackberry was king with there keyboard and pointer it made it a superior smart phone for the market however this keyboard sacrificed screen space. Apple giving a multitouch screen and no keyboard showed that they could allow useful communication with more screen space. This trade off from Apple could had bombed but it didn't making blackberry innovations seem o
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't say they failed to anticipate the market. The problem was Apple changed the playing field. Pre-iPhone smart phones were about typing. Blackberry was king with there keyboard and pointer it made it a superior smart phone for the market however this keyboard sacrificed screen space. Apple giving a multitouch screen and no keyboard showed that they could allow useful communication with more screen space. This trade off from Apple could had bombed but it didn't making blackberry innovations seem out of date.
Damn, I would have loved to have had you on my opposing debate teams in high school, since you don't even know how to defend your point of view.
When Apple "changed the playing field" they changed the market, which BB failed to anticipate. By the time BB did react to the market change. it was too late.
So, yes, BB absolutely "failed to anticipate the market".
Re: (Score:3)
There was literally one multi-touch phone on the market for about three months before the iPhone came out. It had a terrible interface, was never marketed at all and they sold three copies. The media did not fawn over the iPhone when it was released either. It succeeded solely because it was better than anything else on the market.
Re: (Score:2)
the utter bullshit productivity killer that is on screen keyboards is utterly unsuited for business communication
You've obviously never seen anyone who can really thumb-type. I am certain that they can match, or even exceed, the best BB keyboard typists.
Add to that the fact that an on-screen keyboard usually actually has larger "targets" for your fingers than physical keyboards, and the advantages of WELL-DONE onscreen keyboards are clear to most people.
Re: (Score:3)
The difference is that physical buttons give immediate tactile feedback to keep positioning aligned without having to look at the keyboard itself - aka touch typing - the gold standard for "real" typing, and basically impossible with an on-screen keyboard.
In addition, many/most thumb keyboards use domed keys, which allows your fingertip to occupy considerably more space than the key itself without fear of triggering adjacent keys, as well as allowing for considerable time for your fingers to "roll" pressure
Re:Define "Greater Good" (Score:5, Insightful)
Or is he going to do the politician thing and define "backdoor" to mean something conveniently different than what Blackberry has.
Re: (Score:2)
If any warrant can be trumped up, the logical end point is that you don't believe in warrants to begin with.
Wrong (Score:3)
If any warrant can be trumped up, the logical end point is that you don't believe in warrants to begin with.
No, absolutely not. The logical endpoint is that a warrant is a tool that can be used for either good or evil. All tools should be evaluated on a case by case basis. If your logic was true, it would mean nobody could own a screwdriver or a frying pan. Those tools have been used as a murder devices, so must always be a murder device.
Re: (Score:2)
hand it over for any trumped-up warrant, without a backdoor in his soon-to-be-extinct Blackberry's.
I see what you did there...
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Encryption with a backdoor is crappy encryption.
Re: (Score:2)
And crappy encryption is worse than no encryption.
I think the thing is he has nothing to fear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: I think the thing is he has nothing to fear (Score:5, Insightful)
Chen's argument is also an irrelevant straw man ,
Apple has provided all relevant data it has when presented with a valid warrant.
However, by increasing use of PKI & end to end encryption ,Apple has been moving towards a point where that data it has is getting less and less, and may eventually be so little it's irrelevant to asking for.
What Apple has resisted is reversing that direction.
His argument is politically appealing to factions within government who want back doors, but as government, would you want YOUR devices to have a back door that a foreign government could access on presenting a warrant ?
Apples position is essentially, we want to sell you a phone - access to your data is between you and who ever is asking for it.
Blackberry's position is they want to sell you a phone, and then will give your data to whomever it is politically expedient to do so.
I'll take the "other fruit company" thank you.
Re: (Score:3)
Apples position is essentially, we want to sell you a phone - access to your data is between you and who ever is asking for it.
Which is a laudable position, indeed.
Re: (Score:3)
I think the more salient point is that no one even gives a damn what Mr. Chen thinks anymore. He's running a company that's probably within a year of killing its hardware business, and whose big plan for turning things around is to become YAAM (Yet Another Android Manufacturer). At some point they're going to run out of money, and just as importantly, out of assets to sell, and then Mr. Chen will doubtless be on to "save" some other company (though really, he was given the impossible task of reversing half
Re:Define "Greater Good" (Score:5, Insightful)
He's just saying that because Blackberry (then RIM or Research In Motion), after making a big hype about how secure they were, gave the keys to Saudi Rrabis, the United Arab Emerites, and the RCMP [huffingtonpost.ca]
Just days after BlackBerry’s CEO stressed the company's network has no back doors for law enforcement, a news report alleges the RCMP obtained the ability to decrypt communications on BlackBerry devices.
Vice reports that the RCMP was able to crack PIN-to-PIN messages related to Operation Clemenza, a large-scale probe into organized crime in Quebec. The investigation launched in 2010 and resulted in dozens of arrests in 2014.
The RCMP isn’t keeping it a secret that it used BlackBerry communications to crack the case. It states on its website that its use of these messages marked “the first time that this technique was used on such a large scale in a major investigation” in North America.
"Over one million private messages were intercepted and analyzed as evidence using the PIN to PIN interception technique," the RCMP said.
But according to Vice, court documents show the RCMP had access to a BlackBerry decryption key — a piece of code that would allow any communications between two BlackBerry devices to be hacked and read.
Having caved in, he's doubling down rather than admitting he should have refused, fought in court, and pulled service out of countries that demanded access.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I believe it was a provincial supreme court that demanded that Blackberry cooperate with the RCMP. While they could have theoretically challenged that and taken it to the SCC, given Canada's overall political climate and typical government stance on such matters, it is very unlikely that a higher court would have reversed that decision. All that would have happened is that Blackberry would have had to spend more money defending themselves and delayed the outcome by perhaps a few months to a year or so.
Re: (Score:2)
And what was keeping them from challenging the RCMP in the courts - both the court of law and the court of public opinion? Apple won both of those battles.
EXACTLY.
Re: (Score:2)
Keep sucking and I might give you a govt contract (Score:5, Insightful)
Blackberry's CEO is just positioning itself as the cocksucker for governments.
Anything for some more contracts, I guess. They need whatever they can get.
Some Irony There... (Score:5, Insightful)
Blackberry's CEO is just positioning itself as the cocksucker for governments.
Anything for some more contracts, I guess. They need whatever they can get.
A bit ironic, as part of the reason for Blackberry's decline is that businesses can't trust they won't hand over their secure communications to whatever entity asks for it.
Re:Some Irony There... (Score:5, Informative)
Not hard to say you never gave the decryption key to BES when you've pushed out a software update that also sends a plain-text copy to the powers that be.
Re:Some Irony There... (Score:5, Insightful)
The GP meant that RIM handing over the keys are not why businesses have abandoned BB. I agree with the nice Coward. Businesses have abandoned BB because everyone wants iPhones or Android phones. They have more apps, and they work with whatever computer you have at home. Whatever BB has done is too little, too late.
Re: (Score:2)
So there's a hard 100% certainty that businesses did not in any way ever take into account Blackberry's track record of giving up data to any government entities without hesitation or resistance? Even if a company used that as .001% of the reason for abandoning Blackberry, and employee lack of enthusiasm over BB was 99.999%, it still makes the GGP's point true: It's still a part of the reason for Blackberry's decline, and probably a much bigger part than the hypothetical .001% that I used here. Also, wha
Re: (Score:3)
Agreed!
It's obviously political grandstanding based on this quote alone: "We are indeed in a dark place when companies put their reputations above the greater good."
Apple has stated it puts all users ("greater good") at risk to find or create a back-door. Even if the BlackBerry CEO disagrees with the weight of one risk against the other (potentially solving crimes now versus creating more in the future), he should give Apple the benefit of the doubt in terms of internal motivation, and simply say, "I disagr
Re:Keep sucking and I might give you a govt contra (Score:4, Insightful)
And that is just it: Sucking up to the authorities in a police-state like the US is _not_ for the greater good. Apple has it right this time, what is demanded of them goes way too far.
Re:Keep sucking and I might give you a govt contra (Score:4, Interesting)
But even governments are abandoning Blackberry devices, and since he's just turning Blackberry into an Android maker, he's lost most of what differentiated BB from everyone else. At this point, it looks like a guy with a horse drawn carriage who he's strapped a gas engine to shaking his fists at the sports cars.
Re: (Score:2)
But even governments are abandoning Blackberry devices, and since he's just turning Blackberry into an Android maker, he's lost most of what differentiated BB from everyone else.
Well, they've still got their keyboards. It didn't keep them market leader like they hoped, but since pretty much nobody else has them any more, it could keep them afloat.
Re: (Score:2)
It hasn't even given them enough sales to break even. The number of people looking for keyboards on phones is so small it's hard to call it even a niche.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I think it's quite impossible to stop markets from happening.
Which is why besides their best efforts, its still easy to buy drugs for example.
If there's a demand, someone will supply it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well yes, but as soon they ban, people will at very least crack the devices and create a whole huge parallel market of either cracking software or hardware to sideload programs, as it happens with the game consoles right now.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yet.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And what does that accomplish? My modem isn't doing the relevant encryption, my computer is. If the data ever leaves my device unencrypted, then its security is already broken. The modem (or ISP's routers) wouldn't just have to have back doors in their own encryption, they'd have to be able to detect preexisting encryption within the data stream they're given to transport and refuse to transmit it - which can be made an arbitrarily difficult task by disguising encrypted traffic as insecure communications
Re: (Score:2)
Even blocking encrypted content would be a losing game - you can just bury the encryption within a layer of steganography and make it arbitrarily difficult to detect. Maybe not suited to downloading the latest season of [insert show here], but amply viable for the sort of communications used to justify building in backdoors.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
How hilarious. Market value? Somehow I don't think the NSA cares that their monitoring reduces market value.
Perhaps not. But the powerful people who fund the campaigns of the people who give orders to the NSA do care about market value. Additionally, the US does not control the world, try as they might, and its laws are not applicable outside the country. So international actors may fill the gap.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
John Chen is a bit like gun prohibitionists.
You mean he's a red herring?
Re: (Score:2)
Apple is smart enough to realize this. They understand that throwing their users under the bus now will not make us safer later.
And it's important to point out that Apple maintained that stance at no small danger to themselves and their reputation. During that whole FBI thing, there were several Congresscritters that were calling Apple "Aligning with Terrists" and "Intentionally Marketing to Terrists" (really! I heard it myself on C-SPAN), and worse.
And this was in the country that the company was located (USA); so, to the person that said that BB had no choice but to give the RCMP the Keys to the Kingdom because it is located in
Very interesting perspective. (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish they could have gotten the CEO of Pan Am, Zenith, or RCA to speak up on the subject.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I assume that was kamapuaa's point - in 2016, Blackberry is about as relevant as the defunct companies he listed.
I'm disturbed... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm disturbed by BlackBerry's stance on the situation.
Under no circumstances should backdoors be allowed.
Re: (Score:3)
If that's what he meant, then why is he criticizing Apple? Apple has always provided customer information they had available when presented with a warrant. What they refused to do was to hack one of the devices that they manufactured.
Re: (Score:2)
Saying that all warrants are invalid and under no circumstances should be honored removes one of the key tenets of our judicial system.
Indeed. That's probably why no one is making that argument.
If the government was practicing mass surveillance on everyone's electronic communications then you would think at least some of the more violent crimes would not be happening.
How would you know about the violent crimes that are not happening? Maybe they're already not happening!
It's not the government fucking things up it is the governed masses. I guess it is just easier to blame the government for all your ills instead of taking responsibility for your own choices and behavior.
Yeah, those governed masses just don't know how to act or what's good for them! What they need is a strong authority to keep them on the right path.
Sorry, how have my choices and behavior led to the government wanting unconstitutional access to my private communications? How have my choices and behavior led to their abusing the powers they hav
Re: (Score:2)
As a corollary, make just about everything a crime and that gives the gov't carte blanche to get tangled up in your life, any time, for any reason.
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nat
Re: (Score:2)
Has anyone told those in power that AS (and equally '1984', 'BNW', Animal Farm, etc) was/were NOT intended as instructions?
This kind of phrase has always seemed stupid to me. Those with power have been acting this way for millennia. None of them need to read AS or 1984 to get these ideas. Being able to think of and act on such ideas is exactly how they get into power in the first place. Those books described reality; they didn't precede it.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe you need to re-calibrate your sarcasm meter.
Just saying.
Strat
I'm disturbed by his "non-tough" approach (Score:2)
I'm disturbed by his "non-tough" approach. I hope CTOs reading this draw the right conclusions.
That ruins the Blackberry brand for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
And they use to have such a good rep... oh well, someone flush the toilet.
Apple did what they should do for encryption. They refused to release a signed version of their firmware that would allow any phone with that firmware to be brute force cracked. Even if they took the actual phone into their possession and loaded the special firmware themselves only on that phone it would mean tens of thousands of requests from law enforcement and courts all over the world. They couldn't say no to any of them. A logistical nightmare that doesn't make Apple any money; break even at best but with lots of negative press.
It's a no win situation. And you can be sure that further into the future they will endeavor to make it impossible for even them to crack their own phones no matter what firmware the device uses.
Didn't you hear? The USA just bought a ton of apple phones for military special forces.
This is just self-serving nonsense... (Score:2)
BB apparently depends on government business for a large fraction of its' income. This is just "dancing to the piper's tune."
Chen appears to be siding with his major "customer," to forego his failure at making a product that non-governmental customers want to buy. He is also apparently wholly ignorant of constitutional rights to privacy in the U.S., as outlined by Alan Westin's seminal and masterful "Privacy and Freedom" (1967).
Re:This is just self-serving nonsense... (Score:5, Interesting)
Pretty much. The only reason BlackBerry exists in India, for example, is because they gave the Indian government a backdoor into all BlackBerry devices [wired.co.uk]. If they'd do it for India, why wouldn't they be happy to do it elsewhere? A company like that isn't trustworthy and it's no wonder their brand has tanked. Apple isn't going to go down the same moronic path.
There ARE clear guidelines asshole (Score:2)
Dear Mr. Chen: There is no such thing as encryption with a back door. That's the guideline moron.
Re: (Score:2)
John Chen, SHUT THE FUCK UP! (Score:2)
Seriously. It's already known that your company basically already sold its own encryption keys, and thus isn't a trustworthy platform anymore.
Stop trying to curry favor. Your company crashed. You're essentially obsolete. Your heyday ain't coming back.
So please, all you're doing is shaming yourself further, to make a buck.
What's next? Prostituting your own children for money?
Re: (Score:2)
What's next? Prostituting your own children for money?
Blackberry's been around quite a while, and there's no whore like an old whore (or so I'm told).
196 "back doors" (Score:4, Insightful)
Every country will eventually NEED to get access to that data. It's far more likely to be used to squash liberty than to solve the cases for 3 or 4 bad guys. If you need to hack a phone to catch someone, you are fishing. The dumb criminals of course will leave the evidence there -- but also everywhere else. The terrorist cell however, will use a burner phone or a damn pigeon.
America will not get more secure by more spying, but by stronger communities and job opportunities. Every one of these attacks is coming from a loner.
Well ... (Score:5, Funny)
"I guess I won't be using this Blackberry any more." - Everyone in 2008
Seeing which company is one of the market leaders (Score:2)
this is like a fly telling you not to flush your shit as its for the greater good of fly society to leave the turd in the bowl.
It's Official (Score:5, Interesting)
1) BB just died with Mr. Chen's comments.
2) Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that Apple has integrity*. Not a huge fanboi, it pains me terribly to say that.
*on the matter of encryption/privacy.
Go on roll over (Score:2)
Show them you're belly. How anyone could believe that is beyond me. I bet if someone doxed his ass he would be outraged and scream about his privacy.
Greater good? (Score:2)
Fair enough (Score:2)
I am disturbed by Blackberry's hard line stance, and consider it harmful to society.
Seem to be contradicting.... (Score:3)
"I think BlackBerry, like any company, should have a basic civil responsibility. If the world is in danger, we should be able to help out." ...
Chen also warned that mandatory back doors aren't a good idea either.
I'd like to hear Chen's idea of how he can accomplish access to encrypted data without the user's consent while not having a back door.
I suppose he doesn't count the vendor having the user's key and using it without permission as "unauthorized access".
If the world is in danger... (Score:2)
That's a big 'if'. Terrorism doesn't kill anybody, statistically speaking (and that's not to say I don't feel sad for all the statistical anomalies in Nice, etc, but let's keep it in perspective), so it should not be something to be afraid of. Governments around the world are using it as a control measure over the population. That's what they always do. Encryption thwarts that control in a minor way, that's why they're scared of it.
I think this
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, the world is increasingly in danger from the severe (and intended) side-effects of "fighting" terrorism. (No, mass surveillance does not help against terrorism, as the last few cases have very well demonstrated.) Hence "helping out" would actually mean helping to stop the raising fascism in the west. But no, they cheer it onwards. This has happened before and last time the result was a global catastrophe.
I wonder which company is in tune with its users? (Score:5, Insightful)
They let other people turn their phones into turds an the market spoke.
Now he is whining because Apple won't turn their phones into turds on the behest of some bunch of assholes.
The telcos put blackberries onto the bottom shelf the second the iPhone came along, the IT departments switched to everything else, and the jackbooted thugs will probably treat BB with the same respect. This makes me smile.
For those who aren't Canadian, BB epitomizes everything that the rest of Canada hates about central Canada (where RIM is located). This unrelenting bowing to authority. This treating of the people as peasants who don't know what is best for themselves. A pseudo intellectual belief that the rest of the world will somehow come around to their delusions and make it their reality.
Translation (Score:3)
We alienated our customer base by handing out their privacy and now they should damn well, too!
Greater Good (Score:2)
If it were truly for the greater good, perhaps they wouldn't be risking their reputations. The thing is, the authorities have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. They define "bad guys" as not only those who wish to harm people, but also those they deem to be threats to the System or the status quo. So while we can all agree that we want to know what's on the phone of a mass murderer, we should be more circumspe
Wow, what a stupid way to kill a company (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Governments and their contractors.
Fuck you, John Chen (Score:2)
Remember when (Score:2)
one of BlackBerry's selling points was that they were secure end to end and even they could not see messages being transferred through their NOC by enterprise customers who had their own keys installed on BES?
Apple's stand on encryption is the correct one. You can't backdoor encryption and have only the "good guys" have access.
Anyone who believes that is a realistic possibility is idiotic.
Perspective (Score:2)
One thing to keep in mind in line with Chen's comments is that Canada has some of the best privacy legislation in the world. Sure it has issues, and has been challenged politically in recent years under the guise of terrorism and protecting children, but in the end it survives and is pretty powerful. So from his perspective in Canada his point of view is pretty consistent and has merit. However is the US, it is a bit of a different story. In much of the world it is even more so. India is one example people
Chen? (Score:2)
Is this guy on Apple's payroll or something? To my ears, he might as well be begging me not to buy BlackBerry. (Do they even sell phones anymore?)
Re: (Score:2)
To be fair to Chen, Blackberry was already a dead man walking. While it still had significant cash in the bank, its revenue had already collapsed, and he was supposed to be this big white knight who could save the company. It was an impossible task, but what did BB have to lose? But Chen has spouted a lot of crap of late, which leads me to believe he's just grasping at straws at this point.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Such leftist extremism like not bending over to the government?
Re: (Score:2)
No... you obviously do not understand socialism. What political ideology is responsible for the death and enslavement of over 160,000,000 people (conservatively)? Socialism. Socialism, according to the leaders of it, always ends in communism. Hitler. Mao. Stalin. Go read an actual book for some real information. Stop getting your ideas from television.
I'm wondering what books you've been reading.
Re: (Score:2)