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Businesses Crime EU The Almighty Buck Apple

Apple Faces Large Penalties In EU Tax Probe 120

First time accepted submitter chasm22 writes EU Regulators are apparently set to accuse Apple and the Irish government of entering into several sweetheart deals that left Apple with lower taxes than what it legally owed. If the ruling is upheld, Apple could owe billions in back taxes. Interestingly, it seems that the Irish government would actually get the extra money and suffer little for its part in the scheme.
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Apple Faces Large Penalties In EU Tax Probe

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  • From what I've heard Apple will enjoy being "probed".
  • Finally (Score:5, Insightful)

    by johnjones ( 14274 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @07:52AM (#48018469) Homepage Journal

    they should pay tax somewhere... I do and most of the world does... it's that or death...

    • Re:Finally (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 29, 2014 @07:57AM (#48018489)

      I think we should allow companies with a head office on Mars be exempt from tax. With the money involved some companies might actually profit from setting up a permanent base there.

      • Until the first country to stick a flag there will demand retroactive back taxes.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        News at 11: "IRS" launches Mars mission.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Meh, corporations will simply set up mailboxes on Mars, much like they do in Luxembourg or Lichtenstein, the actual board members will be safely ensconed back on earth while they at maximum (if legally required) send some patsy. Otherwise it was a good idea, we'd get rid of a lot of very greedy people from the planet, then we can revoke the law and set up a society with solidarity as the main idea rather than short term profits for the elite.

        • "Meh, corporations will simply set up mailboxes on Mars, much like they do in Luxembourg or Lichtenstein, ..."

          Bullshit. I'm from Luxembourg and those companies have real offices here, they're just here because for the moment they profit from the low VAT of 15% here because of the current EU law, next year they will move on, when customers will have to pay the VAT to their local governments.

          We can actually go to the Paypal Bank Offices and raise hell if there's a problem. :-)

          Lichtenstein is something else en

          • Re:Finally (Score:4, Interesting)

            by gbjbaanb ( 229885 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @12:07PM (#48020501)

            real offices.... 1 real office block with 100,000 post office boxes and a lawyer. that's how they roll in the Cayman Isles at least, I figured Luxembourg did the same.

            Either way, are you getting "Google Luxembourg" confused with Google? A bit like Google UK that is staffed by salesmen... oh no, wait, they don't actually have any salesmen, oh no, because all sales are made by a member of staff from Google Ireland, I forgot. Or at least, that's what they told the taxman.

            All countries have a subsidiary office for the company, if only to be a front to pass the "IP licencing money" back to the real HQ in the Bahamas (via the other subsidiaries in Holland and Ireland of course)

        • Meh, corporations will simply set up mailboxes on Mars, much like they do in Luxembourg or Lichtenstein,

          You are confusing that with Delaware. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... [wikipedia.org] - this single-story building is the (US-) residence of 6,500 corporations, and more than 200,000 businesses.

    • Re:Finally (Score:4, Funny)

      by Thanshin ( 1188877 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:04AM (#48018549)

      However, unlike death, taxes come more than once.

    • Re:Finally (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Ihlosi ( 895663 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:19AM (#48018637)
      It's "death and taxes", not death (x)or taxes".
      • Even the one who rose from the dead said "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" so pretty much it's just taxes.

        • by Ihlosi ( 895663 )
          Even the one who rose from the dead said "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" so pretty much it's just taxes.

          I never looked at it this way, but the argument is astonishingly convincing.

    • Apple made provisions for tax of $8.283 billion (Provision for income taxes 8,283). Which was indeed 24.2% of their profits declared in that year.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/ti... [forbes.com]
      • by SpzToid ( 869795 )

        But what would the U.S. Government do with all that money anyway? Surely Apple could put that huge amount of cash to better use, either by innovating more, or by creating new jobs and growing the economy that way. Apple could then rise above the scenario that forced them into conditons that has now lead to a class-action lawsuit, alleging collusion and conspiracy to pay their workers less income by means of a non-poaching agreement Apple should at a minimum negotiate a better tax repatriation deal! /sarcasm

      • If this ruling sticks then a major adjustment in AAPL's price is coming down the tracks. Should be good for roughly a 15-20% drop. At 16, AAPL's p/e is looking a little pricey in any case. Other tech perps are no doubt peering anxiously over their shoulders but AAPL is the standout bad actor.

        • If this ruling sticks then a major adjustment in AAPL's price is coming down the tracks. Should be good for roughly a 15-20% drop. At 16, AAPL's p/e is looking a little pricey in any case. Other tech perps are no doubt peering anxiously over their shoulders but AAPL is the standout bad actor.

          Then please do short Apple - this should be fun.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by lazyforker ( 957705 )
      Apple (and the *many* other companies that indulge in the same behavior) *do* pay all the legally required taxes. The trick is that there are various governments (ranging from municipal to national) that offer perks, tax benefits etc to companies if they locate themselves in their jurisdiction. You can see this at work pretty much everywhere. It's not an Apple story, or an Irish story: it's just corporations using their leverage to get better deals than you or I (probably just average working stiffs) can ge
      • Re:Finally (Score:4, Interesting)

        by benjymouse ( 756774 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @10:54AM (#48019901)

        But if the Irish laws supported Apple what's the legal basis for trying to claim back taxes?

        I believe that the claim is that *both* Apple and the Irish government colluded to bypass Irish laws (derived from EU directives). In that case the Irish government is also going to be in trouble, treaty-wise.

        I have a feeling that we'll soon see a pattern where Microsoft, Apple, Google and more did get illegal tax-breaks by moving european HQs to Ireland. If it can be demonstrated that they colluded to keep the arrangement secrets (to avoid EU commision inquiries) and that Apple et al thus should have known they did not comply with EU law, they could - and should - be in trouble.

        Apple has a big coffer - so naturally that is where the EU commision will look first. I doubt that there is political will to risk the statibily of the Irish economy by forcing fines on Ireland.

        Ireland is a leech, just like Luxembourg, Switzerland, Lichtenstein, the Channel Islands etc.

        • Re:Finally (Score:5, Informative)

          by Plumpaquatsch ( 2701653 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @12:57PM (#48020943) Journal

          But if the Irish laws supported Apple what's the legal basis for trying to claim back taxes?

          I believe that the claim is that *both* Apple and the Irish government colluded to bypass Irish laws (derived from EU directives). In that case the Irish government is also going to be in trouble, treaty-wise.

          You, like most her, completely misunderstood what's going on. QTFA: "While the companies themselves aren't under investigation, their input is being sought because they would be required to return any unpaid taxes."

          I repeat: Apple is not under investigation, they will not be fined. The worst that can happen to them is be required to pay taxes saved. It's only Ireland who is in trouble (and the other countries under investigation).

          • You, like most her, completely misunderstood what's going on. QTFA: "While the companies themselves aren't under investigation, their input is being sought because they would be required to return any unpaid taxes."

            I repeat: Apple is not under investigation, they will not be fined. The worst that can happen to them is be required to pay taxes saved. It's only Ireland who is in trouble (and the other countries under investigation).

            Thanks. I stand corrected :-)

      • The legal basis is EU State Aid regulations, which prevent governments doing this sort of thing without permission from the EU.

    • by Shatrat ( 855151 )

      They do pay taxes. They just negotiated lower taxes in exchange for bringing those jobs to Ireland. It's a WIN-WIN solution for Ireland and Apple. Ireland still collects more revenue due to all the new jobs. The only losers are the countries who want to maintain a high tax rate and don't appreciate competition from Ireland, hence the EU getting their panties in a bunch.

      • Re:Finally (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Carewolf ( 581105 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @11:09AM (#48020021) Homepage

        They do pay taxes. They just negotiated lower taxes in exchange for bringing those jobs to Ireland. It's a WIN-WIN solution for Ireland and Apple. Ireland still collects more revenue due to all the new jobs. The only losers are the countries who want to maintain a high tax rate and don't appreciate competition from Ireland, hence the EU getting their panties in a bunch.

        Yeah, all that win for Ireland was why they went near bankcrupt and had to bailed out by the rest of the EU?

        Ireland sold out, but sold out so cheap they didn't even get rich from selling out. Hopefully they have learned their lesson, though it seemed some people like you haven't.

        • Re:Finally (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Shatrat ( 855151 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @11:35AM (#48020233)

          What lesson is that? Would Ireland have been better off if Apple and Microsoft and Google moved those jobs to Wales or France or Spain? Ireland is collecting income tax from all those employees, and sales tax from everything those employees buy. Why push employers away out of some fashionable drive for 'social justice'?
          For perspective, this same line of thinking comes up around here all the time. The county granted some tax incentives to an automotive factory to come in and unemployment dropped, new business opened up to support all the new faces and new incomes, and the county revenues went through the roof. Every now and then I hear somebody in a bar complaining about how Toyota isn't paying their fair share but most of us are too busy enjoying all the new parks and schools and better roadways.

          • What lesson is that? Would Ireland have been better off if Apple and Microsoft and Google moved those jobs to Wales or France or Spain? Ireland is collecting income tax from all those employees, and sales tax from everything those employees buy. Why push employers away out of some fashionable drive for 'social justice'?

            I made no comment on social justice. I said it was bad business. A race to the bottom leaves you at the bottom, and since the rest of the EU was not racing against Ireland, they just raced themselves to the bottom. It was bad business and economically idiotic.

            • by Shatrat ( 855151 )

              It's not a race to the bottom, it's an optimization. If corporate tax rate is X and total tax revenue is Y, past a certain point as X goes up, Y goes down because of competitive forces elsewhere.

              • It's not a race to the bottom, it's an optimization. If corporate tax rate is X and total tax revenue is Y, past a certain point as X goes up, Y goes down because of competitive forces elsewhere.

                Yeah, but if you give away more free stuff than you ever get back in revenue you will be losing money. This is what Ireland did. They got less than a thousand jobs out of it, and would lose them in an instant if they ever tried to make Apple or Google pay for what they actually use of public resources. Selling for less than cost is BAD BUSINESS.

          • Ireland doesn't actually get that many employees out of these deals, maybe one person to sign official documents, and another person to answer the phone / email and open the mail.

      • How many jobs were created in Ireland because of this? Was any manufacturing moved to Ireland? Any product development? Even any sales or marketing?
        • Apple has a factory in Cork employing around 4000 people, they are currently in the process of expanding it.

          • And that factory isn't where they are saving the money.

            They have a company called Apple Operations International. It is registered in Ireland, and all the staff that work for that company are based in Texas. Under Irish law, the company does not pay any tax because it doesn't do any business or employ any people in Ireland. Under US Federal and Texas State law, it doesn't pay any tax in the US or Texas because the company is registered in Ireland. That company makes a huge amount of money, two thirds of

    • they should pay tax somewhere... I do and most of the world does... it's that or death...

      Correction: it's that and death.

    • Apple pays a huge amount of tax in the US.

      They ALSO pay a lot of tax in the EU.

      The fuss form the US government is that UNLIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD we like to double-tax foreign revenues for which tax was already collected.

      The fuss from the EU is that the tax Apple pays they consider to be too low, because Apple has money and the EU does not.

      That's the simp truth. Apple found the place that collected the lowest taxes and based international operations there. Doing something legal and having a hug

      • What angers people is that multinational corporations like Apple (and Google and many others) collect a lot of revenue from many the countries they operate in - but somehow make such tiny profits in those countries that they pay tiny taxes.

        Taxpayers in those countries pay for infrastructure and services that the multinationals' local offices depend on, consumers in those countries contribute greatly to their revenues, yet see very little return in corporate taxes thanks to the profits being funnelled away t

    • I've always been a little fuzzy on why we think corporations paying taxes is a good thing; wouldn't it just be simpler to tax the assets of the shareholders directly?
  • by Anonymous Coward

    to how taxes were done right after WWII. 39% across the board for all companies. Close the loophole. If you have "a" presence in a given country, you pay taxes in that country.

    We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money. Countries should band together and collect what owed. Full stop. Let's also kill right now, the notion that corporations are persons. It's a fallacy designed to be pro-business.

    • by khallow ( 566160 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:20AM (#48018643)
      "to how taxes were done" by whom? When I see stuff like this, it's usually from a US citizen who doesn't have a clue what sort of loopholes were around 50 years ago.

      We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money.

      Or we could have something useful. Or just not collect the taxes in the first place, if that's the best you can do with it.

      Let's also kill right now, the notion that corporations are persons.

      Definitely from the US. Well, I guess you'll be pleased to find out that everyone including the US Supreme Court already agrees with you. Corporations aren't people and there just isn't any disagreement on that. OTOH, corporate personhood is a legal fiction used to insure that the people involved with a corporation receive proper protection under a variety of developed world legal systems, including the US.

      It's a fallacy designed to be pro-business.

      Let me note that pro-business is far less harmful and crazy to human society than anti-business.

      • We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money.

        Or we could have something useful. Or just not collect the taxes in the first place, if that's the best you can do with it.

        absolutely.

        At the time when an average /.er writes another meaningless statement as to how to use more government violence to steal more money from individuals to create more monstrous government monopolies, Switzerland stands its ground and votes against such notions [yahoo.com].

    • Or companies will leave the US in droves, to other countries where they can get better tax rates.
      Leaving the rest of the population without any work nor a tax base to pay for such services.

      It is really a fine balancing act. There is a particular amount of Tax that a company is willing to pay, but not so much that it will just pack up and move.

      • by JosKarith ( 757063 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:36AM (#48018731)
        I see that BS line trotted out by companies all the time - "If you don't give us favourable treatment we'll go play with our ball somewhere else". I say that government should call their bluff - the next company that tries it just gets their licence to trade pulled and their shares suspended. See how quick the other companies back down.
        • by Xest ( 935314 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @09:39AM (#48019269)

          Yep, they'd never follow through with the bluff anyway. If the UK government called say, Amazon's bluff, and said we're forcing you to pay this tax so go ahead, leave the country if you want and Amazon left then that'd create a massive void in which a competitor for Amazon could start up in the UK and use it as a launchpad to challenge Amazon elsewhere in the world.

          It is genuinely a ridiculous argument that they'd leave if they had to pay intended corporation tax, especially in a country like the UK - no major company is going to forfeit a market like that over a 21% corporation tax rate, it's just still way too profitable to ignore and way too risky to leave open to a competitor that would gladly fill the void and gain a foothold.

          It's even more ridiculous in the context of companies like Starbucks who face heavy competition in the UK from companies like Costa and Cafe Nero - these guys could take over Starbucks' premises and hire all their staff within no time so you wouldn't even really see anything more than a very very short term hit in terms of job losses in many cases. As we've seen during the recession as a result of bankruptcies, you can take over another companies stores post-Administration and rebrand them and get their staff working for you in their old premises within a matter of only as little as a week or two in many cases.

          Companies aren't simply going to turn away and say "We can only make £100 million in profit if we pay corporation tax, instead of £120 million, it's just not worth it" if they were given an ultimatum between paying corporation tax and leaving the UK market altogether. They might well sulk, but millions in profit is millions in profit and you don't say no to that- especially when all your competitors are at the exact same disadvantage.

        • by Shatrat ( 855151 )

          This happens all the time.
          Some county or city negotiates lowered taxes for some factory to move in.
          20 years later the mayor gets greedy and lets those agreements lapse.
          The company builds a shiny new factory in the neighboring county or across the country.

          Competitive forces don't only apply to widgets in micro econ.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Good. Let them actually carry their empty threats and try to do a Burger King.

        They will just owe more in import taxes after their temper tantrum is done. In fact, the US government might make more revenue if they add a penalty on their goods, similar to the expat citizen renouncing tax.

        Import duties are quite useful. It allows US businesses a level playing field, and if businesses choose to leave, revenue still comes in.

    • by jbssm ( 961115 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:36AM (#48018737)

      We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money.

      USA doesn't need more taxes to have socialized medicine. USA has the 10th biggest public healthcare expenditure per capita of the world already, more than 20% higher than the UK and Canada for instance.

      So, unlike what the majority of the Americans actually thinks, they are paying more for much much less, just out of they congenital spite over "paying stuff to poor people".

      Source: PRB Per Capita Public Expenditure on Health (US$) [prb.org]

      • by jaseuk ( 217780 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:58AM (#48018893) Homepage

        The USA may have highest per-capita spending, but that hides the fact that you have a system where very few people OVERPAY for your health-care compared to much of the rest of the developed world. It doesn't mean it's evenly spent.

        http://liberalconspiracy.org/2... [liberalconspiracy.org] : "For a direct comparison, that means that in England the government spends around $3,200 per capita on healthcare and covers the entire population whereas in the US the federal government spends around $3,700 per capita and yet covers less than a third of the population."

        You should have a much better economy of scale, particularly with drugs purchasing, research and best practice. Yet it doesn't bear out in practice somehow...

        Jason.

      • by Eunuchswear ( 210685 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @09:00AM (#48018911) Journal

        Just in case anyone is misunderstanding what jbssm is saying.

        The US public spending on healthcare is the 10th biggest in the world, larger than many countries (E.G. the UK) that have "socialised" health care.

        I.E. The taxes Americans already pay are enough to provide "free" healthcare for every American. And you could stop paying health insurance and all other health costs.

        • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @09:08AM (#48018989) Journal

          And yet the UK Tories are doing everything they can to move towards the American system so that someone can turn ever larger profits at our expense.

        • > all other health costs.

          Let's clarify this. Universal Coverage doesn't mean "free" healthcare. It would work the same way a private insurance plan works now, except it's the government running the program and doing so without charging money to pay for CEO private jets, bonuses, and lobbying efforts. No one I know has a problem with paying copays, deductibles, or coinsurances, it's the massive premiums (of which a not-insignificant chunk of which goes to paying silly things while insurance companies
          • No one I know has a problem with paying copays, deductibles, or coinsurances

            Why not? Ask someone in the UK what "copays, deductibles, or coinsurances" are and they will look at you blankly.

            • You're very much correct about the UK. However France requires a copay and I don't disagree with that. Truly free healthcare leads people to go to the ER for stuff their Primary Care Physician should be handling (as the uninsured do now). This presents the ER staff with a large triage issue and it affects emergency care quality. A reasonable fee would discourage this and allow for the creation of additional funding that could be applicable to public funded medical research. Stipulations on that research cou
              • You're very much correct about the UK. However France requires a copay and I don't disagree with that

                My "copay" is 100% reimbursed by my mutuelle.

                Truly free healthcare leads people to go to the ER for stuff their Primary Care Physician should be handling (as the uninsured do now).

                Why? If I visit the ER I pay nothing on the spot, and the bills get paid by the securite sociale and my mutuelle later on. If I visit my doctor I have to fork over the cash or cheque and get reimbursed later.

                The major advantage of seeing my doctor is that I don't have to wait for hours in the ER. (He even does house calls).

                • France has a different culture and population and economic class separations than does America. It's a people problem more than a procedural problem. Ironically we could do the insurance thing totally cashless fairly easily (government provided debit card/insurance card with a payment guarantee for covered procedures).
                  • by khallow ( 566160 )

                    Ironically we could do the insurance thing totally cashless fairly easily

                    I doubt there's 1 in 1,000 people in the US who pay for their insurance with cash. It's close enough to cashless. Maybe we ought to look at problems instead.

      • by mjwx ( 966435 )

        We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money.

        USA doesn't need more taxes to have socialized medicine. USA has the 10th biggest public healthcare expenditure per capita of the world already, more than 20% higher than the UK and Canada for instance.

        So, unlike what the majority of the Americans actually thinks, they are paying more for much much less, just out of they congenital spite over "paying stuff to poor people".

        So why does the US have such a woeful health care system?

        It makes the NIH in the UK look like the paragon of efficiency.

        It seems the problem isn't funding but Americans. It would be a good idea if you could paid Canada to run the whole system for you.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      You don't need that money to have socialized medicine. Norway is spending less *government* money per capita for socialized medicine than the US does just to cover its subsidies to poor people.

      It turns out that the US structure of healthcare is horribly bad. I've experienced using both the US and the Norwegian health system, and had similar types of ailments.

      In Norway, if you use the public (socialized) system, it is slightly slow - some hours of queue that you can pay your way out of by using the competi

    • If you have "a" presence in a given country, you pay taxes in that country.

      How does that work? If you have a presence in 2 countries you pay 78%? (2 X 39%) In 3 countries 117%?

      I will point out that America the only major country which works on a "domicile" approach – If you are a US subsidiary in a foreign country you pay US and local taxes. This can result in taxes over 100% - which the US fixed by putting in loopholes.

      The rest of the world work on a saner approach and uses "residency" – profits earned locally pay the local corporate tax rate. This still leaves the is

    • to how taxes were done right after WWII. 39% across the board for all companies. Close the loophole. If you have "a" presence in a given country, you pay taxes in that country.

      We could have socialized medicine in the US if we could get this money. Countries should band together and collect what owed. Full stop. Let's also kill right now, the notion that corporations are persons. It's a fallacy designed to be pro-business.

      If true... this isn't a loophole. It's fraud.

    • you could socialize medicine in the USA with the taxes you currently collect.

      The cost of medicare in the USA is about the same (as a proportion of GDP) as the cost of universal healthcare in the UK.

    • to how taxes were done right after WWII. 39% across the board for all companies. Close the loophole. If you have "a" presence in a given country, you pay taxes in that country

      Except that's not how US taxes work - the US says, you pay US tax on ALL your corporate income. If Apple makes a phone in China and sells it in Germany, the US says that the profit on that sale is taxable. That's highly unusual (unique, actually) among major developed economies.

    • Easy for you to say. Now tell me, how do you legally define "a" presence. If Pear corp buys a widget from Pear distribution(a wholly distinct entity) corp in Ireland and sells it at cost in the USA, so their revenue is zero, then how much taxes do they owe? Meanwhile, the shareholders of Pear corp happen to coincidentally own shares of Pear distribution, which is making plenty of money.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    If the Irish get the money it'll help pay off the immoral "bailout" which was forced upon us by the ECB. Taxes have increased across the board for citizens and new ones invented just to pay for the shortfall in the banks' reckless actions.

    I wonder will the EU be so quick to probe France's tax sweeteners on "research" and similar schemes in other countries.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Ireland is free to fix its tax's level for all companies. The problem seems that Apple got a better (well, lower) rate than other companies in Ireland.

      About tax/research in France and other schemes in other countries, well, as long as it is equal opportunity for all candidats, no problem. Each country sets its rules, and the EU checks that everyone play according to the ones they published. Same as Delawar and California.

      • Re:Some justice (Score:4, Informative)

        by pijokela ( 462279 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:30AM (#48018691)

        EU actually does have minimum and maximum levels for some taxes. So as a member of EU they are not completely free to choose the level of their taxes. I also think that Ireland has been one of the countries opposing a raise in the minimum tax paid by companies. But anyway, the current beef is like you said.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    If this probe results in a precedent that companies can't use Ireland to handwave their taxes away, that may cause companies to stop setting up "headquarters" there, which I imagine could be worse for Ireland than any fine could ever be.

  • Takes two to tango (Score:4, Interesting)

    by qbast ( 1265706 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:18AM (#48018627)
    So if deal between Apple and Ireland was illegal, shouldn't Ireland be fined as well?
    • Nobody can do that.

      • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

        So if deal between Apple and Ireland was illegal, shouldn't Ireland be fined as well?

        Nobody can do that.

        Sure they can and they should be. The UK faces being fined [independent.co.uk] not dealing with it's traffic pollution.

    • No because it is Apple ... or something.

      [I never have understood the Apple hate. Is it 'Linux has failed envy' or 'I am stuck on Windows' remorse or something. I'm sure this will be -18 flamebait or something real soon ... ]
      • by qbast ( 1265706 )
        Yes, of course. European Commission has 'Linux has failed envy' and that's why they are unjustly punishing Apple. You may get '-18 flamebait' soon but only because there is no '-18 retarded cultist'
      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        Nothing to do with Apple hate, more like the love of money.
        Apple is a US company that is very profitable and wants to make loads of cash selling stuff in the EU. Of course the EU want its share, and it knows that Apple can pay.

    • So if deal between Apple and Ireland was illegal, shouldn't Ireland be fined as well?

      Why? Not fining Ireland serves a very useful purpose: it means any country can easily agree to these schemes, and then back out painlessly. Apple pays all the costs of crony capitalism (presumably they have to spend time and money placating politicians), and receives none of the benefits. Attempting to fine the Irish government would just make it harder to punish Apple, since presumably the Irish would also fight any penalties directed at them.

  • Not true (Score:5, Informative)

    by MikeMo ( 521697 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @08:26AM (#48018677)
    The EU never made such a statement [forbes.com] and never levies fines in such cases even if the action turns out to be illegal.

    This is another case of breathless reporters doing their best to get clicks by accusing Apple of something, anything.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      ...while virtually every other tech giant is doing the exact same thing (MS, Google, etc)

    • The EU never made such a statement [forbes.com] and never levies fines in such cases even if the action turns out to be illegal.

      This is another case of breathless reporters doing their best to get clicks by accusing Apple of something, anything.

      It clearly states in that article that they may very well find that Apple is altering prices in an illegal way and may get fined. It's just not as simple as the original article made it seem. And if you doubt at all that Apple is doing this, you're a tad naive. If they get caught at it or not is the only real question.

      • by MikeMo ( 521697 )
        They won't face a fine, although the EU may require Ireland to collect the "rightful" taxes. In any case, I was objecting to the article summary which states that "EU regulators are set to accuse Apple..." which is misleading, at best.
  • it seems that the Irish government would actually get the extra money and suffer little for its part in the scheme

    So, if the government was the victim because some of its members decided to abuse power in order to get personal compensation (be it money or just public opinion), why would the government itself be penalized? It's true that the government is made by elected members of the people in a democracy, but these people did NOT represent the government's best interests with the deal, as the deal did not do justice to the government by breaking its law.

    It might even have benefited the country overall, with new money

  • Well, everybody gets what they want. Apple, no real action against them and the gov't free money! Ain't that great?
  • by gnasher719 ( 869701 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @09:13AM (#48019013)
    Fact: The EU is having a close look at the deals between Apple and the Irish government. Fact: There is no indication whatsoever that anyone is asking for any back payments, and there is no indication whatsoever that anyone is asking for large penalties.

    In other words, the whole article is pure nonsense.
  • They get whatever benefit they were getting for offering the low low taxes. And then later on they get to jack the tax rate retroactively and get the cash too.

    Well played.

  • by paysonwelch ( 2505012 ) on Monday September 29, 2014 @09:55AM (#48019401) Homepage
    Apple CEOs recently sold off a lot of their stock at the height of the iPhone 6 release: http://www.businessinsider.com... [businessinsider.com] My guess is that they knew this was coming and cashed out at the highest possible value. It might be time to short AAPL.
    • Apple CEOs recently sold off a lot of their stock at the height of the iPhone 6 release: http://www.businessinsider.com... [www.businessinsider.com] [businessinsider.com] My guess is that they knew this was coming and cashed out at the highest possible value. It might be time to short AAPL.

      You are welcome to short AAPL, but you should be careful, since apparently you have not a clue how the stock market works. When insiders like Apple's CEO trade shares, they can't use the insider information which they obviously have, because that would mean jail time if the SEC finds out. Instead, they have to enter these trades a long time (around a year) before the trade is executed, and there is no way to back out of this. So Tim Cook could today set up a trade to sell 10,000 AAPL shares on the 23rd of S

      • Hello, I never claimed to be an expert. I'm pretty sure I know how the stock market works, but you would have been correct had you suggested that I don't know how corporate officers liquidate their holdings. A year is enough time for them to get the feeling if and when the music might stop or go against them. Tax loopholes (especially Ireland related) have been in the news for a while. They also did a 7/1 reverse split this year, probably trying to get the numbers up a little before cashing out. If you
  • Let's face it, Apple doesn't exist without America. Their designers live here, their product engineers live here, their top management lives here. It shouldn't matter that a shell company based out of Ireland is what "holds" Apple assets. If a company does business in the US (selling to US consumers) it should be required to submit the same financial paperwork as any other registered American company. It should then be taxed accordingly. If they don't like they're free to get out of our country and never be
  • Excellent news. Apple, Microsoft, Google, Starbucks and all those other euro-tax avoiding organizations should be forced to pay taxes where they sell their products. I hope that the EU for once does something that benefits Europeans and return billions to the EU economy. Not play and relay but pay to play.

    The tricks that those Transfer Pricing consultants from the big tax advisory firms pull have gone way too far. It's time they are reigned in. And their customers should be hit where it hurts most. Next the

  • If the ruling is upheld, Apple could owe billions in back taxes

    iPhone 6S in 3, 2, 1.....

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