Apple-Approved Fair Labor Inspections Begin At Foxconn 334
redletterdave writes "Apple announced on Monday that the Fair Labor Association has begun inspecting Foxconn's Chinese factories, upon Apple's request. Apple said that Auret van Heerden, the president of the FLA, is leading a group of labor rights experts in the first round of inspections at the sprawling plant in Shenzhen, China, more informally known as
'Foxconn City.' The FLA's independent assessment — completely supplementary to Apple's own auditing practices — will involve interviewing thousands of Foxconn employees about the working and living conditions, including working hours, compensation, managerial issues, and health and safety conditions. Foxconn has 'pledged full cooperation with the FLA,' and will reportedly allow unrestricted access to all of their operations. The investigative team will report their findings in early March on the FLA's website. Apple's other suppliers, including Quanta and Pegatron, will be inspected later this spring. By the time summer rolls around, the FLA hopes to have covered 90 percent of facilities where Apple products are built and assembled."
corporate responsibility (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:4, Insightful)
Why China ? (Score:3)
There have been too many of debates in Slashdot and in many other places regarding the sweatshop and shitty working conditions in China.
Most of the debates concentrate on China, and it's communist (some would even use words like "tyrannical to describe the) regime that controls China.
But why China?
Why China becomes the world's factory?
Why so many factories are in China?
Is it because China is / was poor?
If so, Africa was / is also poor.
India too.
Why don't we see similar factories sprung up in the African con
Re:Why China ? (Score:5, Insightful)
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There was an segment on NPR a few months back that touched on exactly this question of "why hasn't India experienced the same growth as China". One of the main points brought up was that it is much more difficult in India for the government to seize land for economic development. This was one of the reasons why Indian cities remain badly organized for industry to this day. So part of the answer could lie in the differences between the two countries' priorities on rights vs economy -- China is more willing t
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:5, Insightful)
You're not *that* naive are you?
Maybe you have not been to a Chinese factory (I have), bu if you have you would know that this is just lip service. Apple is not opening the company doors either. All they did was hire a 3rd party to investigate. Foxconn agreed. That's it.
Do you really think with all the media attention that Foxconn would say no? Of course not. They can't.
However, they are Chinese. Trust me. The word is going around right now that they better look like some cheerful happy mother fuckers in front of the western investigators or there will be some real consequences. Not the standard ones, but some serious ones.
Way too much on the line. Way too much. How many officials must be involved in greasing up that company's operations who knows.
Corporate responsibilities? *snicker*
You are just *too* cute. I wish I could go back in time where all this experience I have did not result in the cynicism I have developed.
There are no responsible corporations. Just corporations doing the minimum to not get caught, and corporations that have not been caught yet.
Every single device out there, regardless of which fanboi club it caters to, is made by manufacturing that is related to an awful lot of human misery. Unless you can say with 100% certainty that it is made in a developed Western country like the US, or some place in the EU, you can rest assured there was poor pay and poor working conditions. That's just life.
It's not limited to devices either. Just about every product made in China is in factories with poor working conditions compared to the US and the EU. It would have to be. Otherwise it would be too expensive and it would just be made in some hell hole in another country.
Sorry to ruin the illusion for you, but it's all pain and misery, all the way down.
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Hopefully that wouldn't happen to you (Score:2, Informative)
Look how happy he is!
Start praying, my friend.
Pray that the same thing will never happen to you, or to anyone you care about.
If you think that you have to use the suicide of a Chinese man to make you point, you are more desperate than that deceased guy
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Just how low are you guys willing to go to make a point?
Until it makes a difference.
You may say someone is vulgar or 'low' for showing you a picture you don't like.
Maybe you should look at the world we share, and how we share the world, instead?
People don't like looking at pictures of the victims they're responsible for. It's one of the main reasons why victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are so seldom displayed in high school textbooks and museums in the United States.
It's often called unpatriotic to look at victims. I say, we are cowardly to ignore the victims
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First day on the job maybe? Give her a week... :)
Seriously though, the GP is a little too pessimistic I'd say. From a western viewpoint, working conditions in China must be horrendous. The locals there may not think much of it, or at least not as much as westerners do. People get used to surprisingly pretty much any condition, and can become more or less happy in their surroundings. At least they do clean work, they get their meals, they're not cold and they get paid, which is more than you can say about mo
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:5, Insightful)
These workers know their jobs suck, and they would gladly trade places with any western factory worker with their massive pay, massive pension, tons of benefits, and far higher standard of living.
Of course, that same western factory worker's pay, benefits, and conditions is why it's so expensive to make anything here. Western standard of living and OSHA is why all the jobs are going overseas, because nobody here is willing to take a pay cut to keep their job.
But the Chinese workers in these factories know something that some people here seem to forget, and that's a job is better than no job. These Chinese workers are working long hours in tough conditions because they are making pretty good money compared to their other options. They're working hard and making enough money to give their children a better life, so that their children, and their children's children, can rise up, get a good education, get better jobs, and live the Chinese Dream. When Foxconn expands their factories, they have more people lining up to get a job than people here line up to buy the latest iPad. It's not because they've been tricked, it's because poverty in China sucks a lot worse than factory conditions. They simply have no better options.
We in the west should be glad Chinese workers are making pennies a day to produce our products, because as unemployment falls in China, Chinese living standards and working conditions will improve, just as the industrial revolution in western countries created the middle class, and created a living standard that's the envy of everyone in China. Someday, China will be losing jobs to other countries, because their pay, benefits, and conditions have improved to our standards, and they need to make all of their goods cheaply someplace else. It will not be because of magic, it will be because western tech companies created millions of jobs for Foxconn workers to do.
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Very much indeed. +5 Insightful if I could.
Continuing along this line of thought, a lot of our current infrastructure is really highly dependent on not-yet-quite-so-developed countries such as China and their political and social system. After "we" have "exploited" all those countries to make cheep stuff for us, where are we going to build anything? Computers may become an unaffordable luxury good. Our societies will have to change in response to those countries developing a middle class.
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There will always be specialization occurring somewhere. Perhaps a country will heavily subsidize computer manufacturing, or have sufficient cheap energy to give them an advantage. Perhaps somebody will develop a robot that requires minimal maintenance, can work 24/7 without complaining, and produce computer parts cheaper than any human labor force.
My theory is and always will be, if a robot can do your job better and cheaper, you're in the wrong line of work. Much of these factory jobs we lament losing in
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If that ever proves to be true, great. I'll be skeptical until I see it. Yes, Star Trek replicators are always the dream of mankind, but at this point in time there are more hands building stuff than ever before in human history. Let's see if we can ever obsolete the manual labor part entirely. So far we've only been successful in shifting it around, not in eliminating it. You'll always need somebody that builds the thing that builds the thing.
Chinese' contribution to American infrastructure (Score:2)
Continuing along this line of thought, a lot of our current infrastructure is really highly dependent on not-yet-quite-so-developed countries such as China and their political and social system.
You are more right than you can ever imagine !!
It was the Chinese who built America's first transcontinental railroad
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So the question is then, would they have a better standard of living if they revolted an executed the current pack of leaders and executives.
The reality is conditions are so bad because labour is cheaper and more disposable than automation.
Peoples long term health, their ability to use their hand is bring ground away in some of the worst imaginable repetitious task 10 to 12 hours a days a week.
Conditions never improve, corporations just shift elsewhere and shut down the existing factories (after smug
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So the question is then, would they have a better standard of living if they revolted an executed the current pack of leaders and executives.
If the Americans revolted and execute the current pack of leaders on Capital Hill, would they have a better standard of living ?
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:4, Insightful)
would they have a better standard of living if they revolted an executed the current pack of leaders and executives.
They tried that. Twenty million died, which is pretty typical for violent socialist revolution. I don't think risking it happening again is that brilliant an idea.
The UK. The US. France. Germany.
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:4, Informative)
Of course, that same western factory worker's pay, benefits, and conditions is why it's so expensive to make anything here. Western standard of living and OSHA is why all the jobs are going overseas, because nobody here is willing to take a pay cut to keep their job.
It isn't that simple. Labour isn't usually the largest cost, or even a hugely significant one in some factories. Even where it is an issue the extra cost involved in producing a high value item like a powerful smartphone or tablet isn't going to force prices up or make a massive dent in profits. You also have to consider the extra shipping costs, one of the major reasons that large and heavy things like cars tend to be made on the continent they are sold on. Corporations are basically just greedy.
Germany actually manufacturers and exports more than China does. Germany is not a cheap low-wage country. Their products are sometimes a bit more expensive than Chinese ones, but also tend to be better quality. We lost out by engaging in a race to the bottom, lowest possible price combined with lowest possible quality. Well, that and pure greed.
Having said that there is one area that China seems to excel at which is low volume manufacturing. I can get 50 of my products made by hand for a reasonable price there, but western companies don't even seem to be interested. That is changing slowly, mainly due to automation, but low volume seems to be about the one area where wages really do make a big difference. Hardly applies to consumer electronics though. I'd also like to say that not all Chinese stuff is crap either, they make some damn fine products too. They are not idiots, they see that quality at a reasonable price sells and are getting into that market.
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:4, Interesting)
Germany puts the lie to that corporatist bullshit:
And that's not from some dirty fucking hippie rag like Mother Jones, that's from Forbes. [forbes.com]
The problem isn't that American workers aren't competitive, the problem is executive greed.
But we all knew that already. Cheap shipping, cheap third world labor and international communications were all available in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. But we didn't see the gutting of America's manufacturing base until unions were busted, marginal tax rates (91% under Eisenhower) were slashed to less than 30%, and corporatist "free trade" laws were passed that puts Americans in competition with third world labor without giving Americans third world price tags on goods, housing or services.
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Everyone likes to tout the 90% tax on salaries over $1million back in the 50s. Of course almost nobody then or even now have/has salaries in that range as they were payed with under valued stock options of which when cashed in were only charged 14% at the time or 10% now.
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Maybe you have not been to a Chinese factory (I have), bu if you have you would know that this is just lip service.
You know, instead of trying to prove how much 'better' and 'righter' you are because of this, why don't you tell us what you saw there? A first hand witness account would be really interesting, and informative, whereas what you have now is trying to bash people with your 'superiority.' Wonderful. Do something better for a change.
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You are such a holier than though butthead you know? Every post you are so abusive and abrasive and contribute nothing to the proceedings except nastiness.
Maybe I don't want to talk about what I saw? You think of that? Maybe I don't have anything to do with that business at this point precisely because of what I saw. Foxconn workers have it good compared to what I saw. I would be surprised if the people I saw were still healthy and alive today.
What would a first hand account tell you anymore than what y
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You are such a holier than though butthead you know? Every post you are so abusive and abrasive and contribute nothing to the proceedings except nastiness.
But maybe I'm right.
What would a first hand account tell you anymore than what you already know? Every one knows conditions are hell in most factories in China.
I would be really interested in hearing your first-hand account, assuming you've actually been to China. Your extreme defensiveness leads me to believe you might be making stuff up. Do you speak Chinese? Here's a guy who actually did tell his account of factories in China [slashdot.org]. His story is a lot more convincing than yours, and it matches my own experience living in a developing country, where people wanted factories to be built near them because it would be an improvement in their lives.
Ma
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You're not right. You're just a fucking asshole. In every post.
Assuming I have been to China? You're being an asshole again right there for calling me a liar instead of addressing the points I made. Easier to just discredit me than to make logical civil arguments.
I'm not being defensive. Merely offended by your constant attitude in your posts to me that are not deserving based on anything I have said.
You're just a truly offensive person with nothing positive to say about anything. You remind of some o
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Go fuck yourself. You're the one who has been abusive in your response to me every time, in every Slashdot article. I'm just tired of it and I have ran out of civility and patience for a complete asshole such as yourself.
I can see that you're all stressed up.
Why are you still posting in Slashdot if it gives you so much pain and stress, may I ask?
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Actually, I really like Slashdot.
I find it stimulating and it gives me a chance to really consider what other people have said, what I think about something, and then write something that expresses those thoughts logically and rationally. At least I try to do so most of the time. Part of the time I am just an irreverent smart ass. I can only infer from the moderation that other people here find my posts worthwhile and productive. I enjoy writing them and apparently other people have enjoyed reading them
Chinese Factory (Score:2)
Maybe you have not been to a Chinese factory (I have)
Same here
But you have, maybe unintentionally, missed a very important point --->
Not all factories are the same, whether they are in China, or outside of China
Some factories in China are total shit, I know. But there are factories in China which are actually nicer to work in than some factories that I've been, from United States of America !!
But then, I guess it's not kosher (aka Politically Correct) to talk about nice Chinese factories in Slashdot
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Capitalism lifts people out of poverty, but not before people are exploited first. That's the trade-off.
Are you going to be the one to go over and explain to the suicidal workers about how this is all necessary?
When does the exploitation stop? When people just happen to feel like it someday?
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So what would you like be done? Give all those workers a huge benefits package, insurance, pension, 36 hour weeks, paid-for kindergarten places for their kids, christmas bonuses? Realize that virtually nobody enjoys these kinds of benefits in China at this point! The majority of Chinese go to work their ass off every day in the fields growing food in order to not starve to death. Do you expect Apple to come in and revolutionize the whole country over night? Make the Foxconn workers kings with huge salaries?
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If only there was some sort of alternative, like reducing profit margins, reducing pay at the top, some sort of redistribution of wealth. What if the workers owned the means of production instead of being exploited for their labour?
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Capitalism is redistribution of wealth - to the top. An economic system where the CEO of Wal-Mart makes many times the average employee is not a problem. A system where the CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in one month than the average employee does in his or her entire lifetime is obscene.
Thank you for the summary (Score:2)
Many thanks !
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but apple is the only company with balls to open the doors to visitors. Let's see the same for whatever droid / tab factories.
Normally you dont laud a company for having to deal with the kind of issues Foxconn / Apple are. Its great that theyre working on fixing them, but dont turn this issue into something that they did right to begin with.
I havent heard stories of motorola employees jumping out of the factory due to unlivable conditions, so I think android gets a little more credit here (which is a stupid comparison anyways, since there are many android manufacturers, and the comparison isnt iOS vs Android but Apple vs the othe
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Re:corporate responsibility (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know why people keep talking about suicides at Foxconn factories, since the population of China has a higher suicide rate than the population of Foxconn workers in China.
Foxconn employment correlates to less suicides, not more. You know what that means? I know you refuse to believe it because for some reason you've decided to have an irrational hatred for everything Apple, but Foxconn saves lives.
Suicide is not something to be happy about, but let's be honest, it's just one more cause of death in the world. Some people kill themselves, and always will. There are far more preventable causes of death in the world, like say, starvation. How many Foxconn workers starve to death? How many of them would starve to death if they didn't have a job? Again, employment in a factory is better than unemployment.
People freak out over suicide numbers at Foxconn facilities because they don't realize just how large these places are. These are massive, massive factories, and there are going to be a lot of deaths from a lot of different causes in any population of that size anywhere no matter what. What is important to look at is not absolute quantities, but percentages, and compare those to statistics for China as a whole.
People target Apple because Apple is a big popular company doing a lot of business right now, but just about every major tech company you can name has their stuff made at Foxconn, or a similar company in China. This isn't some Apple problem, and yes, the reality is Apple is doing more than most of those other companies to identify and fix problems. Perhaps you should save your moral outrage for those big tech companies that are silent on these issues, or even better, the factories that have higher death rates than China's population as a whole (if there even are any).
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I don't know why people keep talking about suicides at Foxconn factories, since the population of China has a higher suicide rate than the population of Foxconn workers in China.
True, but misleading, since the numbers for Foxconn only includes suicides in the workplace, while the national average includes all suicides.
In China, it only counts as a work-related death if it occurs in the workplace. I.e, for your family to get compensation, you need to take your life at work.
Even if people take their life at work for financial reasons, though, it still shows how desperate they are.
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:5, Insightful)
Again, this is a misunderstanding of Foxconn. These are company towns. Foxconn employees kill themselves at the workplace, because they're living in Foxconn dormitories. If you work, eat, sleep, and hang out on company property, and decide to kill yourself, you're going to do it on company property.
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True, but misleading, since the numbers for Foxconn only includes suicides in the workplace, while the national average includes all suicides.
True, but misleading again. Many, many Foxconn employees live at their workplace. You wouldn't expect a suicidal Foxconn employee to make a long journey to their birth place to commit suicide, would you? And you wouldn't expect someone to try suicide with an overdose of sleeping tablets (most common mode of failed suicide attempts in the USA), when they are in a dormitory, observed by others?
I have no intent of doing anything stupid like that, but if I did, a suicide wouldn't happen at my workplace, beca
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I'm not suggesting suicidal workers are a good thing, but way to completely distort what I said. I'm saying quite the opposite, that less suicidal workers is better than more suicidal workers. I am not so naive as to think that suicide rates will ever be zero, at Foxconn, in China, or anywhere else humans work or live.
I'm simply saying that workers sometimes commit suicide, no matter where they are or who they work for. I'm also saying that Foxconn has a lower suicide rate than the rest of China, which mean
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explain the anti-suicide nets then? Is that how they cause a reduction in suicide? Because the workers cannot commit suicide at work, so they do it when away so the figures for Foxconn look better?
If you look at statistics in the USA, it turns out that the suicide rate among men is much higher than among women. A closer look shows that the rate of suicide _attempts_ is much higher among women. Women just use methods that work less well, like taking lots of sleeping tablets, while men quite often use violent mens like using a gun, which has a very high "success" rate.
It seems that people at Foxconn have found a method that "works well" - jumping off a high roof. Suicide nets can stop this from work
And what else have to to say Mr Dell? (Score:2, Insightful)
You've got to be kidding. Have you had your eyes and ears closed for the last five years?
Only someone who had both wide open would realize you whole post is pretty much entirely slander and lies.
In fact the opposite is true, only Apple has shown they care whatsoever. And whatever you are typing on was made under far worse circumstances.
If you had any ethics at all in regards to foreign factory workers you would buy Apple products when possible in support of the efforts they have made to improve labor condi
Re:And what else have to to say Mr Dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that these sorts of things are just PR stunts more than anything, and probably wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the media coverage.
But let's consider the nature of that media coverage, to begin with. It seems that only Apple gets mentioned in Foxconn stories. In some cases, like this story, it makes sense, but most of the negative coverage of Foxconn only ever mentions iPads and iPhones.
These are Foxconn's major clients:
Acer Inc., Amazon.com, Apple, ASRock, Asus, Barnes & Noble, Cisco, Dell, EVGA Corporation, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, Lenovo, Microsoft, MSI, Motorola, Netgear, Nintendo, Nokia, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Sony Ericsson, Toshiba, Vizio
And yet, only one of those companies appear in every single Foxconn story. Hmm. If people defending Apple here are just Apple shills, what level of bias can we attribute to the negative stories then, in light of the fact Foxconn makes everybody's tech but the stories only paint Apple in bad light?
Again, Apple's just doing what Apple needs to do, for PR. I don't think they're all a bunch of heartless bastards, though, any more than any other company. But the spotlight on Apple's relationship with Foxconn is a bit strange, since every competitor they have that I can think of is on Foxconn's client list.
What bullshit (Score:3)
Maybe if they were less evangelical in their advertising and PR
How is Apple AT ALL evangelical in advertising? They just show people using the product!
It's Android that displays devices as huge glowing monoliths that solve all the worlds problems with clouds of glowing robots (sorry, androids, even though they are vaguely humanoid at best).
Apple's PR is not even close to evangelical either.
In the end I think that's what makes me think Apple Haters are such twits, because they attribute to Apple behaviors t
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You're also naive if you believe that a Samsung or Motorola device is assembled under different conditions.
Re:corporate responsibility (Score:4, Informative)
moving back home would mean 17 hours a day hard labor in the fields. Foxconn is a paid vacation compared to "home" they could go to at any time.
Indeed. [digitaltrends.com] Do you know what you have in common with a used diaper or do I have to spell it?
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Excellent news (Score:2)
This is probably the next best option as long as these workers are not allowed to unionize and negotiate their labor terms.
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Your pessimism is warranted. Here's what I am hoping for:
This may allow for some breathing space for some actual labor organization to happen. While they are under scrutiny violent suppression of such effort will be more difficult.
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My wife just showed up with lunch and I asked her specifically about this. (she's native born Chinese) Basically, she said that people work there because they can make more money than they can anywhere else.
In theory they could unionize, but what would it get them? Most likely a chance to get fired and replaced with 200,000 other farm kids that are quite happy to take the wages Foxconn is willing to offer.
Unions only work when there is a limited supply of workers. That isn't a problem right now in China. Ev
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Independent unions are currently suppressed in China [nytimes.com]
Constructing an iPad will require some learning curve no matter how much the process is broken down. Walk-outs will be costly and disruptive, especially in the gadget industry where products have a short shelf live.
The situation in China is similar to where the Western world was 100 years ago. Labor struggles will be fierce. The unions won't always win but the record in the Western world shows that overall concessions can be achieved. That is if indepe
Exploitation alert !! (Score:5, Funny)
My wife just showed up with lunch .... (she's native born Chinese)
You're exploiting your wife from China !!!
Amazing what one day of crowds can do (Score:4, Informative)
First time in forever the crowds outside the Apple store weren't dueling down their shirts over new hardware and Apple runs right out and finds company to shill for it. Amazing.
FLA is essentially the fox watching the hen house if you ask me. The organization is not particularly well though of, being considered by some merely an attention diversion. Even Wiki didn't have much good to say [wikipedia.org] about it. And Non Profit Watch is more than a little skeptical [slashdot.org].
The take away is that Apple is very sensitive to bad public image press, especially if it makes it into the New York Times, and bodies are hitting the ground.
But in the background they keep suing android vendors for using hyperlinks on web pages. Because that won't get any one standing outside their windows with placards, and they can lean on the press not to cover it, because its boring technical stuff.
A facade really (Score:3, Insightful)
The metrics of these audits will probably be carefully tailored. Make no mistake, this is not a true audit, it's a carefully choreographed public relations stunt in response to protests to save face.
And it's worse than doing nothing? (Score:5, Insightful)
We know Apple has taken some real steps, like bonuses for the FoxConn workers, that lead to the conclusion this is not wholly a sham. So why assume the whole thing is fake, and even if so shouldn't you be attacking companies with equal gusto that can't even be bothered to pretend to inspect anything?
You can disbelieve all you like, but when you are covering for companies doing nothing you come off as more than a bit hypocritical.
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What, +5 insightful? Who the hell is getting the mod points these days?
This is an entirely baseless claim, originating in a black and white (well, mostly black) view of the world that is plain stupid in its absoluteness. This is not insightful, but a defeatist, pathologically negative attitude.
The audit will pro
These auditing services never work. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think I'm getting tired of all news Apple (Score:4, Interesting)
Just last month, it was news about its best ever quarter.
Then just today, news of its stock hitting north of $500.
Again today, some site reporting that Apple's iPad3 will hit us in March.
When Apple finally fades, these pundits will be the ones saying something to the effect: -
I say this because Apple has had a number of failed [oobject.com] products [maindevice.com] in the past.
I am just tired of all news Apple. Am I alone?
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I am just tired of all news Apple. Am I alone?
No you're not. You're not even in the minority. There have always been Apple doom-n-gloomers since, well, the beginning of the interwebs. Many respectable trolls^Wtech journalists (Henry Blodgett, John C. Dvorak, have been negative on Apple for decades. What's news now, is that Apple, long the doomed company, is now ascendant, and has not only beat Microsoft at the finances game, they've got more market capitalization than ExxonMobil.
Apple is here to stay for the long term... for good or ill.
I agree (Score:2)
I personally think the level of speculation that goes around about new Apple products is absurd. As you say, just recently there has been a confluence of items that have conspired to send Apple news into overtime.
However, I personally just ignore the items I feel are excess. I don't care about possible future products so I don't read the guesswork. I already knew Apple stock was heading up regardless so I don't pay attention to that news.
Basically, it seems you have the power to filter the level of Apple
Let's agree for once: this is not a bad thing. (Score:2)
Worker demands (Score:2, Funny)
Workers are demanding a second hour of sleep a night. Apple representatives feel that a compromise would be possible that won't severely affect profit margins. Apple's offer of a picture of the company logo instead of an actual apple for dinner was flatly refused by the workers.
shipping jobs overseas... (Score:2)
It's not enough that we ship our jobs overseas....but now we need to make sure that they're good jobs for those who get the jobs. I'm all for protecting workers...but the irony is thick.
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It's not enough that we ship our jobs overseas....but now we need to make sure that they're good jobs for those who get the jobs. I'm all for protecting workers...but the irony is thick.
It's only ironic if you care about things like nationalism.
I could care less about nationalism, but I do care about healthy working conditions and respect at the workplace.
Excellent news (Score:2)
It's about time the North American companies that outsource to cheap offshore providers started inspecting those facilities and ensuring that abusive slave-labour environments aren't being created to save money and increase profits.
If North America wants respect in the world, our companies need to export the GOOD things about our Canadian and American legal systems, not use offshoring to ESCAPE our regulations.
Kudos to Apple for grabbing the bull by the horns. (Or is it a dragon by the beard this year
Thoughts from someone who lives in China (Score:5, Insightful)
I've resisted posting on these threads because I don't want to start a war. However, I think it's finally time that I spoke up.
Firstly, I live in China, speak Mandarin and Cantonese and build electronics among other things over here.
I think this isn't a bad thing in concept, but everyone needs to get a little perspective on the issue. The educated workers, engineers and the like, are pretty well taken care of. They make middle class (for the region) wages, get weekends off and generally put in a comparable number of productive hours to US engineers.
The factory workers, which are the ones that everyone seems to worry about also have it pretty good. They get company provided housing (no, the housing isn't up to western standards, but it's significantly better then where they grew up, I PROMISE). They also get company provided food (No, it isn't Ruth's Chris, but it isn't bad.. I frequently eat in the factory when I don't want to take the time to go out).
Everyone is trying to apply western working standards to the workers over here. While I think it's great in principle, consideration has to be taken for cultural and lifestyle differences. Most of the people that are working in those factories came from a life of subsistence farming. They are also migrant workers. Their families live back in Henan, Hunan, Dongbei, etc... Most of them grew up in a single concrete room. They're quite lucky if their parents house had a flushable toilet.
Making a thousand or two thousand RMB per month, having a decent bed to sleep in and 3 meals a day is a significant upgrade.
With all of that said, I'm also a firm believer in giving them the opportunity for more. Everybody should have the chance to enjoy western working standards. But, it needs to be done in a patient manner. Expecting Apple to leverage Foxconn to give $10/hr and carpeted apartments to 200,000 workers is way out of proportion. Not only would it be prohibitively expensive, but it would screw up Foxconn's competitiveness.
Remember, Iphones aren't the only thing made in Foxconn city. Hundreds of other electronics manufacturers make things there. If Foxconn doesn't stay competitive in Shenzhen, somebody will open a factory in Vietnam where they don't even have to feed their staff and pretty soon all of those people in SZ that everyone was so worried about will be out of work and back to subsistence farming.
Let me repeat... I'm not opposed to this. A little external influence to help them move up the economic ladder is certainly not a bad thing. Neither are all the good intentions. What is a bad thing is expecting too much to happen too fast. China has advanced at it's own pace QUITE effectively in a single generation. We all need to bear that in mind.
They have a long ways to go, but they've come a HELL OF A LONG WAYS from hole-in-the-ground toilets that don't flush.
I'd say, we should all give Apple and Foxconn some credit for the 200,000 migrant children of farmers that now can feed their families back home and raise their children in better conditions then what they grew up in. Isn't that the "American Dream"? Giving more to your children then you had?
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Excellent post. It's amazing what short memories people have. The Japanese and South Koreans both had periods very similar to what China is experiencing now, with workers living in crowded conditions and working for (comparative) peanuts. The US and UK also had terrible working conditions during their industrializing periods, probably worse than what the workers at Shenzhen experience.
This is a positive step, and welcomed by anybody with a bit of pragmatism.
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Just because "they are better off than before" does not mean we should settle for less than "where it should be".
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Absolutely. All I'm advocating is some patience in the process. I hope one day they can all enjoy the benefits that American factory workers receive.
Oh, wait... the only benefit is 6 months of unemployment checks and a foreclosure notice.
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"At what point will we acknowledge that the disparity of wealth here in the USA is encouraging a wealth disparity throughout the entire 3rd world?"
I'd never really looked at it that way. VERY interesting.. You've given me food for thought for a while.
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There's another viewpoint to make though. While the workers aren't as bad off as they could be, and even the bad conditions are an improvement over working in rice fields, this does not mean that consumers should just whistle a happy tune and let things be. There needs to be a pushback to increase working conditions. As soon as the west decides things are good enough then they'll never improve. The reason jobs are moving out of the west and into places like China and India is because the costs are lower
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"They have a long ways to go. So keep pushing to make working conditions even better."
Absolutely.
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I wouldn't ever want to demean someones death, but, the suicides at Foxconn were statistically insignificant. Compared to the suicide rate among the general population here, they aren't out of line and are actually an improvement.
Think of a city you know in the US with 200,000 people. I'll wager you every week you can find an obituary in the newspaper for a suicide.
That's a much higher rate then the few at Foxconn city. Perhaps all US cities should have nets as well?
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Of course they did.. they were embarrassed by western news reporting it first and had to. Plus, Foxconn isn't a mainland company and they ALWAYS like a chance to bash on the Taiwanese.
They would NEVER tell you about the real suicide rate in mainland china. Or any other thing negative about Chinese society.
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"Golden Gate to get suicide net," Los Angeles Times, Oct. 11, 2008
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/11/local/me-goldengate11 [latimes.com]
Just sayin'.
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Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China (Score:4, Informative)
So things are so good that they had to put up nets to stop people jumping off the buildings for joy?
The Empire State Building also has nets, does that mean all of NYC is a giant sweat shop filled with despair and misery?
For every million people in the US, there are 106 suicides per year.
For every million people in the China, there are 222 suicides per year.
For every million people at Foxcom, there are under 20 suicides per year.
So, in fact, the very low suicide rate at Foxconn is an indication of joy compared not just to China but to the USA as well.
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You can skew the number all you want.
I simply stated straight up facts.
Facts are facts, and the fact is that the conditions at Foxconn are bad.
Yet the very suicide rate, which you brought up, disagrees.
That you can't accept facts and instead cling to your beliefs irrespective of the facts is not my fault.
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You used large pool rates compared to a specific location.
The demographic corresponding to Foxconn workers has, at best, an average suicide rate so baring further data my comparison is generally valid. Foxconn hires more people than live in many cities, at that scale you're gonna get a lot of unhappy people in absolute not matter what the working conditions are.
Granted, I never said Foxconn is a paradise but merely that it's not a hell hole either. Probably a better work environment than the Mexican crop pickers get in the US (and not as health destroying long ter
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You can skew the number all you want. Facts are facts, and the fact is that the conditions at Foxconn are bad.
Numbers trumps your so-called facts. But that's because they weren't really facts. If you want to claim that there is an elevated suicide rate at Foxconn, then you need to show the suicides. You can't do that based on a miniscule number of reported suicides.
So bad that this year 150 workers threatened mass suicide in protest. They where all fired and forcibly removed. To me, that does not sound like a content work force.
And if all of those workers committed suicide this year while no other employees did, Foxconn would still have a lower suicide rate than mainland China. The numbers just aren't working in your favor.
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You can skew the number all you want. Facts are facts, and the fact is that the conditions at Foxconn are bad. So bad that this year 150 workers threatened mass suicide in protest. They where all fired and forcibly removed. To me, that does not sound like a content work force.
These workers where threatening mass suicide "at the Apple factory" as was widely reported, because they were in danger of losing their jobs when Microsoft reduced the XBox production. That wasn't a work force unhappy with their jobs. It was a work force unhappy with the prospect of having no job.
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re: Collateral damage (Score:5, Insightful)
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While Apple bashing is always fun, let us remember that Apple is not the only FoxConn client. So while you may revel in this negative publicity of APPLE, would you be as thrilled to hear that your Xbox 360, your PS3, your Wii, and your Kindle are also built at those same FoxConn factories?
Who gives a fuck?
The point is that the working conditions are shit, and they deserve better as human beings.
I don't revel in positive or negative publicity for Apple
I'm pissed off at this blatant exploitation of the lower class in China so clueless soccer families can have more shiny toys.
As for Apple, I don't think about them much at all. They're part of the problem, other than that, I could care less.
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So does your umbrage only extend to Apple Inc?
No. Just as I expected more than just Nike to investigate their sweatshops, I think all of their customers should pressure Foxconn to do right by their employees.
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douchebags buying free trade coffe
Douchebags indeed. Did you know that the "extra" you pay for this free-trade coffee does not (directly) benefit the coffee farmers, but instead stays in the country of sale as a "licensing fee" for the local "fair trade association", which at best spends it on advertisements of the idea of fair-trade coffee, and at worst splits it amongst its board and senior staff via fake purchases of service?
In danger of invoking Godwin (Score:2)
But was this a show akin to the Red Cross inspections at the Nazi POW camps? Just asking...
Another interesting thread (Score:2)
http://www.zdnet.com/debate/do-happier-chinese-workers-spell-the-end-of-affordable-tech-gadgets/6343317 [zdnet.com]
Evolution of Peaceful Industrial Society (Score:3)
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Considering Hon Hai Precision Electronics (parent company of Foxconn) is the world's largest electronics company in the world, practically *everything* you touch has probably been the hands of Foxconn somewhere down the line. If it wasn't built by a Foxconn factory, it probably had a subassembly done there.
Yeah, Apple's one of the big custome