Hackers Hit Apple Supplier Foxconn 193
wiredmikey writes "Protests against Apple and Foxconn due to furor over reports about working conditions have gone digital. A group known as SwaggSec has successfully hacked computers at Foxconn, and posted the stolen data to The Pirate Bay website. News of the hack comes as protesters paid a visit today to Apple stores around the world to deliver petitions demanding the improvement of working conditions at factories run by Apple suppliers in China and other countries. In response to the attack, Foxconn reportedly took down a website that explains the services it offers to some of its partners, including Apple, Cisco and Acer."
Apple and Foxconn (Score:5, Informative)
I made this point in the last article [slashdot.org]: Foxconn is the world's largest electronic producer and is outsourced by Dell, HP, Microsoft, Google, Sony, Nintendo and more. Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn. Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't? Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government? It's not like Tim Cook can make a phone call and change the entire Chinese business model. There are all kinds of factors at play between the Taiwanese management of Foxconn and the Chinese labor it employs that foreign companies have no power to change.
On a related note, the NY Times published an interesting article on why the U.S. lost out on iPhone work [nytimes.com]. For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.
Apple gets singled out (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Apple has billions of dollars. Why don't they throw a few bucks at their employees/contractors? Are they cheap? Are they mean?
Who would buy stuff from a cheap, mean company?
Re: (Score:3)
More importantly if Apple really believe in their products why aren't they making them themselves. Why are they relying upon 'disposable' manufacturing services, does Apple believe it's products are crappy and the need to be able to abandon them at the drop of a hat if the iFad collapses.
Let's see some commitment from Apple and manufacture of their devices where they are bought not where they can not be afforded as they represent around a year's salary at that location.
Re: (Score:2)
Because they are in the business to make money, not to push some political/social policy.
Re: (Score:2)
And therein lies the problem with society today... Businesses are selfish and short sighted.
If every business works hard to improve efficiency, cut back on expensive staff and replace them with robots, outsource labour intensive activities to cheaper countries etc...
The end result, is huge unemployment in the home country of that business, so then who buys your products? Those people in the country you outsource cheap labour to can't afford to either.
Short term profit gains, leading to long term economic co
Re: (Score:2)
Apple did manufacture their machines back home in America until a) the demand started to exceed capacity and capacity could not be ramped up due to regulations, labor shortages etc. and b) the Mac prices became twice those of PCs because all the competing PC manufacturers had moved manufacturing to Asia.
To move manufacturing from low-cost countries to the high-cost market countries themselves is a losing proposition.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
To be fair, the Apple bashing trend isn't new. I remember the early '90s as a time of spirited Apple bashing. It was a fairly well established meme even then.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
I remember. I had a friend in high school whose favorite phrase was "really? It just works on a Mac!" We all wanted to flick him on the back of the head. That might have happened, too, if he hadn't gone and gotten a hot girlfriend while we were busy trying to figure out how not to be Bud Bundy.
I don't give a shit about the bashing. I'm just sick of the posing. "Oh, well, Apple should be the ones to fix this because some guy with a fashionable haircut scoffed at my phone."
Meanwhile there was a story abo
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, I, for one don't buy anything which comes from Foxconn. No Dell, no HP, no Microsoft, no Nintendo, etc. Before buying something I check where and by who is made.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I, for one don't buy anything which comes from Foxconn. No Dell, no HP, no Microsoft, no Nintendo, etc. Before buying something I check where and by who is made.
Foxconn is also one of the (if not the) largest maker of connectors - good look making your PC Foxconn free.
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:5, Informative)
"Though he [Labour activist Li Qiang [laptopmag.com]] believes that Apple has done a better job of inspecting its factories than others, Li maintains that the public is right to put more pressure on Tim Cook’s company than its competitors who have the same problems. Because Apple makes the most profit, he reasons, it also bears the most responsibility for fixing a broken system."
You may do a better job than other, but you've got deeper pockets so prepare to be punished.
"“Foxconn is not good,” Li told the New York Times. ”But if we compare all industries, electronics, textile, toys, Foxconn is one of the best.”"
They're not even attacking the right supplier, just the one that's connected with the most high profile name so they can get their mug in the papers.
Re: (Score:2)
Because Apple makes the most profit, he reasons, it also bears the most responsibility for fixing a broken system.
Some people will call me a liberal, but I believe this wholeheartedly. Look at my signature. The people who are most capable of fixing a problem ("hold high places") must take the initiative to fix it. Is this the same thing as punishing success? I like to think that being able to help the less fortunate is a reward of success.
Re: (Score:2)
Those with the broadest shoulders should bear the heaviest burden, I agree with that. However, when do you cross the line and become a neo-colonist company telling people how they should organize their country ? Secondly Apple are doing more as indicated in the article, so how much is enough ? The broadest shoulders should bear the heaviest burden but you can't become Atlas and start carrying the burden of the world.
Re: (Score:2)
Dude, that was a long time ago. I never even heard of Foxconn back then. So stop presuming that you know me.
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:4, Insightful)
it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.
As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.
And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.
Re: (Score:2)
it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.
As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.
And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.
Thats not for Apple to decide. A company will (AND SHOULD!!!) always find the most cost-effective (yet legal) way to meet an end (short of compromising design or manufacturing goals). Thats the responsibility the company has to its shareholders.
If Apple all-of-a-sudden decided to "be ethical" and manufacture in the good ol' US of A, then arguably, that 10% cost makes them less competitive than their rivals. Go to any business school instructor/professor and ask him/her to explain to you "competitive advanta
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Thats not for Apple to decide. A company will (AND SHOULD!!!) always find the most cost-effective (yet legal) way to meet an end (short of compromising design or manufacturing goals). Thats the responsibility the company has to its shareholders.
Pure and textbook sociopathy.
Re: (Score:2)
you assume that people buy iPhones and iPads based on cost. That isn't true, if cost was the deciding factor then logically people would buy an android phone or tablet, since they effectively do the same thing and are cheaper.
If Apple manufactured in the USA you might find sales increase due to Americans having a sense of national pride supporting American jobs.
McDonalds in the UK and Ireland advertise that they only use British and Irish beef in their burgers, Supermarkets similarly promote locally produc
Re: (Score:2)
Suicide rate at Foxconn: 18 per million workers. Sucide rate in the general population: At least ten times higher. The cameras would be facing out of the factory...
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that 10% really worth it?
Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.
There's no magic trick. The only real solution for poor working conditions is to increase demand for labor more than the net growth of the workforce. Higher demand coupled with lower offer equals higher prices (in this case, higher wages). Once the demand over there is so high that companies start competing among themselves for workers, so that workers can start choosing were to work, a choice which usually includes considerations on working conditions, these companies will all find themselves compelled to improve working conditions, or start losing their best workers, then the average ones, and finally even the bad ones. Not being dumb, they'll follow the improvement path simply because there'll be no alternative.
All of which means, counter-intuitively as it seems, that people should actually do the opposite of what you suggested.
Lesser evil is still evil, so start w/ good cond's (Score:5, Informative)
Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.
That's like saying that your slavemaster beats you less than someone else's. You're still a slave, you're still getting beaten, and the only difference is that you get shiny golden shackles, get beaten with precision instruments, or get executed in some van if you think about raising freedom.
The better idea is to start with good conditions in the first place. Then make sure those good conditions become a common practice. That's how you skip the evils of slavery. What China is figuring out is how to keep the slavery going so that your situation never happens; so far, they've been successful at making sure economic development doesn't result in freedoms for those that are not businesses. The totalitarian model that China gives freedom for businesses, but none for workers - for giving workers the requisite freedom would threaten business efficiency.
Re: (Score:2)
Here's how USA gets to decide China's labor politics: Invade and occupy the country, installing some puppet government that... oh wait, U.S. has tried that before and in those countries the conditions for people did not improve one bit...
Re: (Score:2)
A china based company will open its doors paying higher wages and forcing fewer hours and charge 10% more. Force them to compete with each other without using/abusing their employees. If customers don't insist the people they are dealing with are fairly with their employees then nothing will change.
Re: (Score:2)
Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't.
Don't be an idiot. If big companies all over the world refused to do business with companies which treat employees like slaves (never mind that Foxconn treats their slaves slightly better than do the other slavemasters, they still exist in conditions which we would consider slavery here) then all of those companies would treat their workers better, the cost of goods would increase, and life would go on for everyone. It's true that slightly less needless crap would be produced, but that stuff is harmful to a
Re: (Score:2)
Don't ban imports, simply impose import duties on all manufactured items until it BECOMES competitive to build it in America. Either jobs return to America, or suddenly there is enough money to seriously fix the national debt. It's win win.
And to the people who say that it will ruin the economy, quite the opposite. The economy DOES NOT exist on Wall St, it exists when everyday people exchange the goods or service they produce for those of others. More people producing and then consuming in America simply ma
Re: (Score:2)
right... that article was already discussed on slashdot. the gist of it was that the workers are treated like animals. regardless, wages are steadily rising in China and foxconn is now moving some plants over to Brazil where wages are lower.
Re: (Score:2)
Could you provide a link please. Last I looked, 2010, minimum wage in Brazil was triple that of China. I like to keep up to date.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah sorry I'm an idiot. (it's a little over double though based on GDP).
Dealing With Bullies 101. (Score:3)
Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn.
You pick the biggest, baddest of the bunch and sucker punch him. Is it sporting? No. Does it get results? Maybe, maybe not. But it sure feels good.
People who love Apple products are clearly willing to pay a premium. Apple's labor costs are moot in every respect except their own over-stuffed bank accounts. Apple doesn't yet believe that the number of additional units they might sell by foreswearing cheap labor will make up for the few extra dollars they will spend. Picking on them (even unfairly -- o
Were you born stupid? or did it take practice? (Score:2)
Governments set labor and trade policies. Public companies are obligated (by law) to maximize profit. Boycotts about this kind of thing never work--if they did then Nike wouldn't sell so many shoes.
Go vote for some better laws. Blaming Apple misses the point, misses the root of the problem, and above all showcases what an idiot you are.
Re: (Score:2)
Public companies are obligated (by law) to maximize profit.
A combination of legal and logical responsibilities motivates public companies to maximize shareholder value. "Shareholder value" is not rigidly synonymous with "profit". Even if it was, if Apple loses sufficient sales due to poor publicity, they must change their ways or be in violation of your "law".
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:4, Insightful)
Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China...
Not so. Excuse me, but these are precisely the market forces that are supposed to insight change in "pure capitalism". Pure capitalism and our American brand of government / industry cooperation are essentially bottom-up enterprises where change usually comes from the accumulation of lots of insignificant voices.
I'm curious what alternative you would suggest would insight change? Three chain-wearing ghosts visiting Tim Cook overnight convincing him to change his businesses practices and relationships?
Re: (Score:3)
Using incite rather than insight could work ;P
Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.
Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier. If you boycott Apple, just to be some other
Re: (Score:2)
You don't understand what a petition is for.
A petition is a way of making customers aware that they should refuse to buy from Apple. One stands around a table for hours and asks each potential customer to sign the petition. If they do, they're probably going to think twice about entering the store or buying something. If they don't sign and argue, the activity aro
It's all meaningless (Score:3)
the vector to change runs through petitioning the governments (US or China) to enact legislation. Apple isn't breaking any laws and they aren't [arguably] doing anything unethical--which is why most people don't care.
Most people on Slashdot didn't care about "worker conditions" when Dell was the biggest computer company in the world using third world labor--but now they care because they hate Apple because Apple won't let them compile the Linux kernel or run SETI on an iPhone. Just like most people on Slash
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.
So what would be the result if nobody bought any Apple product anymore? There were reports that over 300 workers threatened suicide at the Apple factory quite recently. Actually, that was workers who were in fear of losing their jobs because Microsoft was reducing XBox production, but the headlines reported about suicide threats at the "Apple factory". So you many people would lose their jobs if Apple stops building iPhones? How many would kill themselves?
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products.
If *I* don't buy Apple products, nothing has changed, because I don't buy Apple products anyway, so no, that is a stupid response and you are a stupid person for making it.
petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.
I bet you're one of those people who don't think that speaking is an action, or sharing information. Unfortunately, that is stupid. The truth is that by disseminating a petition more people are made aware of Apple's evil, which potentially causes people who would have purchased Apple products not to do so. Therefore the petition is infini
Re: (Score:2)
Try without littering it with personal insults next time, and maybe you'll be able to put together something worth the effort of reading.
Re: (Score:2)
Try without littering it with personal insults next time, and maybe you'll be able to put together something worth the effort of reading
That's OK, no matter how many insults I put in my comment it won't be as uselessly wrong as yours.
Re: (Score:2)
Using incite rather than insight could work ;P
Argh. Hate it when I do that in posts. I also didn't use the possessive form for "business's". Double-argh.
Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. ...
Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier. If you boycott Apple, just to be some other products produced by the exact same factory, you're applying absolutely zero pressure to that factory.
I mostly agree. But the petition is a form of action. It gathers support for the concept and puts Apple on notice. Some folks will choose to boycott others won't. But it sends a message to management, forces consideration and maybe a response, and just plain gets the word out to other customers.
Sure, Foxconn is enormous and has other customers. But that doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a tremend
Re: (Score:3)
Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government?
There were never any demonstrations, and the demonstrators are in jail.
Re: (Score:3)
I actually disagree with the point of the protests. As shitty as the jobs are to us they are great for someone that's fac
Re: (Score:2)
It is more practical to target them one at a time. Targeting the largest consumer of Foxconn's products first makes it more likely that people will have an effect. If Apple hears people and uses their massive nest egg to do the right thing, that will be a big chunk out of Foxxconn's wallet. Also, when one company sees people successfully beat up a company and know they might be next, they tend to start doing the right thing more quickly.
Re: (Score:2)
For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.
Part of the reason people are going after Apple is because Apple isn't one of them. Their profit margins could easily support the somewhat higher manufacturing costs. Plus, Apple publicly praised the factory for their slave-like working conditions that facilitate rapid design changes at the CEO's whim.
Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't?
Not being the worst doesn't make you immune to criticism. Also, none of the other manufacturers have as much name recognition or as much influence over Foxconn. The former is necessary to garner enough sup
Re: (Score:2)
No, because labor costs is just one variable in the equation. Labor supply, for instance, is another. China has over a billion people, including millions that are perfectly willing to leave their homes for a year or two of living in dorms while earning 20% more than the average industrial worker in China. Where in the U.S. are you supposed to find that kind of work force? Should ex-carmakers retrain to become phone assembly line workers?
Apple did try to manufacture in America back in the day. The result was
Re: (Score:2)
I contend otherwise. Your point is 100% correct if every Chinese job there translated to an American job here. But it doesn't.
You see, the average American in a manufacturing job is much more efficient than their Chinese counterpart. I'd contend easily 10-to-1 or more.
The reason? The average America
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, they outsource to everybody, but Apple is the biggest by far. If Dell told the Fox Con to clean up their act, Dell would be laughed out of the building. If Apple told Fox Con to clean up their act and added an "or else" things would change.
Apple's being singled out because besides Fox Con, they're the only ones with power to do anything about it.
I'm almost as amused by Foxconn's name as I am the name of a local construction company, Construx. I see thier trucks with "Construx" on them and laugh -- "Con
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:5, Informative)
Except Apple are actually doing better than others and are getting punished for it :
"Labor Activist Li Qiang wants you to know that the iPhone 4 in his pocket is not an endorsement of Apple’s policies, just an acknowledgement that the company is doing a better job of monitoring factory conditions than its peers. The founder of leading advocacy group China Labor Watch (CLW) told us that, though the Cupertino company does more-thorough inspections than competitors, it is responsible for poor working conditions at its suppliers’ factories and needs to invest some of its record-breaking profits in improving them."
That's dangerous. Why do better if you're going to be taking heat for it anyway ?
Re: (Score:3)
Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.
Compare this to Nike. Nike still gets most of the flak even though they probably do much better than a random other brand of 'sports' shoes. Fair? Nope. Fallout from being the obvious choice thanks to your success? Yup.
As for why you would do better... good question. Why?
But somehow I doubt that App
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe Apple is being targeted, because they just reported record profits. Profits, mind you, are largely because of the business practices at Foxconn. If they couldn't sell a $5 iPad for $500, their profits wouldn't have been so large.
I'd rather see the manufacturing jobs moved to where the consumers are. If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense. Instead, these companies prefer to manufacture in the absolutely cheapest places possible, disregarding what would be human rights violations here in the US. In the end, the blame is with the consumers. They are happily spending too much money on a name brand, when they know what business practices are in place.
I only mention Apple, because you did. Unfortunately for the consumer, right now it's near impossible to find quite a bit of merchandise that was manufactured in their own country.
The only argument that can be made for keeping these jobs offshore is, they can do it cheaper. There's no way you can find American workers who can afford to work for $20/mo. You'd be hard pressed to eat on $20/mo, much less have a place to live.
Companies should be looking at being economically responsible, rather than admiring their record earnings. There's no prize for doing so though. If you turn higher profits, your share holders make more money, and your stock prices climb. If you just break even, your company won't have an excellent growth forecast, and that doesn't play well on Wall Street.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Where does $20 per month come up? The average Chinese wage is something like $20 per day now, certainly at least for College graduates. Granted that's lower than the US (for now, he he), Japan, and most of Europe, but it's rising steadily.
The problem isn't so much that workers in the US can't do it, but that they are spoiled and they don't want to. Sending stuff offshore costs money. Dealing with different companies costs money. Shipping things around the globe costs money too - all of which means that
Re: (Score:2)
The problem isn't so much that workers in the US can't do it, but that they are spoiled and they don't want to.
If by spoiled you mean refusing to live in factory housing so they can be rousted at 2am to reconfigure the line and work a 16 hour shift due to a last minute change order, then they are spoiled.
But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this. When it costs $25 per hour to get someone to run a wire, or $25 per hour to get someone with 2 month's training to operate a screwdriver to put car doors on, something's wrong.
When a production line goes down, it costs an astronomical amount of money every minute it is down. Because you don't want the line to go down, you want responsible adults working the line, not teenagers. Responsible adults need to put a roof over their heads and potentially feed a family. It'd also be nice if mayb
Re: (Score:2)
But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this.
Bull. Several of my friends are unskilled factory laborers in the US and they are happy to do it for $11/hr and cheap 80/20 health insurance. Any temp agency for unskilled work has plenty of these jobs lined up and a lot of people work them. Even saying the word "union" in one of these factories will result in you being fired and possibly blacklisted.
Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. There is more to American manufacturing than a few spoiled workers at General Motors, and anybody who t
Re: (Score:3)
My mistake on the salary.
According to this article [cnet.com], the average salary was raised to $293/mo. (293*12)/2080 = $1.69/hr @ 40 hr/wk.
But that's not an accurate reflection of the pay rate. The employees work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week. So their week will be 72 to 112 hours. That makes their effective hourly wage (293*12)/(72*52) = 3516/3744 = $0.93/hr (293*12)/(112*52) = 3516/5824 = $0.60/hr
That's not a pay rate. That's payment to
Re: (Score:2)
Where does $20 per month come up? The average Chinese wage is something like $20 per day now, certainly at least for College graduates.
Not that I think you're lying, but if you're going to chastise the parent for pulling numbers out of his ass, you really shouldnt pull numbers out of yours.
tl;dr - citation needed.
Re: (Score:3)
"If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense."
That makes absolutely no sense. A company exists to make money, not enforce social policy.
Re: (Score:2)
Which is why society needs to get together and force them to do it.
At the rate the US is cratering in education, infrastructure, manufacturing know-how, research, etc. all that is left is the bullshit that Hollywood produces. We call that Intellectual Property.
In order to protect IP, we are bullying the rest of the world to adopt copyright laws and frameworks that are quite frankly insane and damaging to society.
It's not isolationism or discrimination to put tariffs in place that are designed to make it ju
Re: (Score:3)
If by "force them to do it" you mean "don't buy their products" then I'm onboard, otherwise you're just worse than the problem. And you might want to double check what protectionism is (I assume that's what you meant by "isolationism", which is fundamentally different...), because placing taxes on imported goods is pretty much what protectionism is.
Why is outsourcing everything good in the long run? Because if we didn't outsource it, you probably wouldn't be able to afford it. It's not like it's complica
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:4, Insightful)
You have no grasp of modern economics. If the US starts a global trade war, the US will find it has no markets for its goods. Since the rest of the world isn't insane like you, they will happily trade with each other, pretty much ignoring the US.
Keep in mind that the US uses more petroleum than it can provide from its own resources. Maybe we could "single source" from US sources for a short while, but it wouldn't be more than a few years. When oil is traded in Euros because the US dollar has tanked, buying oil on the global market will be insanely expensive compared to what we pay now.
Protectionism does not work for a country's economy. It causes the economy to crash. It doesn't matter what you think should happen. It only matters that people more knowledgable than you know the consequences.
Re: (Score:2)
Since the rest of the world isn't insane like you, they will happily trade with each other, pretty much ignoring the US.
What do you call it when the Chinese government forces foreign companies that sell products there to make their products there; then forces the foreign company to make a joint 49%-51% venture where the Chinese company has the 51% share and automatically owns all IP rights that are developed for that manufacturing; then uses free government "loans" to fund a startup Chinese company whose IP was either procured from the 49%-51% rule or stolen by a senior factory engineer at the foreign company's Chinese facto
Re: (Score:2)
The historical record shows that trade wars harm everyone. If the US enacts (higher) tariffs, so will other countries in response. That means that US exports cost more, and thus less trade is done. An economy cannot grow without trading partners.
Re: (Score:2)
An economy cannot grow without trading partners.
Our economy doesn't need to grow, and that is the fundamental problem. Modern economics is basically a pyramid scheme based on the false notion of infinite growth and expansion. This is an archaic world view that served us well when their were unexplored frontiers and new opportunities everywhere.
I don't know if you noticed this but the world is getting awfully smaller and there are just too many people for capitalism as it is practiced in its current form to result in healthy wealth gaps and thus a healt
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
IP is about a lot more than Hollywood movies and music. All of that "manufacturing know-how, research, etc" that you are so concerned with is also IP.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I've spent plenty of time complaining about Dell too, don't worry. :) This was an apple-centric thread, which is why I called them by name.
Many corps use Dell, so they have an emotional tie to the Dell equipment. It's something I really have never understood. They charge more than their competitors, and generally use commodity hardware. They get cases and motherboards built just far enough off of standard that they aren't interchangeable. They do a better job of marketing
Re: (Score:3)
Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.
C: At least some, care more about a new reason to hate Apple than about Chinese workers (or any workers for that matter - make that "anyone")
Re: (Score:2)
It is not so much about hating Apple as it is that Apple is the perfect example of monetary imbalance. They made BILLIONS of dollars in profit LAST QUARTER. Three months, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS (13.06 billion according the article I read). They made those profits on the backs of slave laborers, working in harsh conditions. People with one shred of a social conscience recognize that those profits are obscene and morally wrong.
If Apple cannot produce their products in the US, they can at least improve the st
Not better: Influential. (Score:5, Interesting)
They're not taking heat for doing better. They're taking heat because they're the most influential. Hence, they are the natural vector if one wishes to impose one's will upon a client company of theirs.
Quite aside from that, there are a lot of ways this can go wrong: I hope no one actually thinks that because these people are being compensated in a particular manner, that they don't deserve to have those jobs. Because that is a real potential of complaining about sweatshops, etc... instead of a few bucks in their pockets, the workers can end up outside a shuttered business, jobless, hungry and worse.
It's always dicey when the citizens of one country decide they want to "do something" about working conditions in another country. It's never a matter of "just fixing things." There are economic balances at work, and no matter how good one's intentions might be (I should qualify that as by one's own lights), odds are good that damage will be taken by the very people who are the target of the "help."
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Labor Activist Li Qiang wants you to know that the iPhone 4 in his pocket is not an endorsement of Apple’s policies, just an acknowledgement that the company is doing a better job of monitoring factory conditions than its peers.
It is absolutely an endorsement. These issues are so much easier if we can get past this kind of "not really my fault!" double-talk.
I'll give a probably terrible analogy. Maybe you didn't intend to stub your toe. If anyone had asked, you would have said that your intend was to avoid the obstacle on the floor and not to stub your toe on it. You meant well; good enough. But you did stub your toe and you can try arguing with your toe that it wasn't your intention, but it's not going to instantly remove
Re: (Score:3)
Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4
Where did you get that from ?
or beating up a worker [foolsmountain.com] to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".
That was an action taken by Foxconn. You can't hold Apple responsible for the actions of all its suppliers. The economics dictate Apple goes to China, just like all its competitors, it chooses the best of a bad bunch (Foxconn) for its supplier, then it tries to improve matters by pushing for better inspections and monitoring than its competitors. How's that not doing better ?
Re: (Score:2)
Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4, or beating up a worker to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".
Did you bother to click through to the actual "article"?
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/07/21/reports-of-suicide-in-china-linked-to-missing-iphone/ [wsj.com]
It's a blog that's very light on any verifiable facts and instead uses unattributed reports:
Some publications reported that, in the days prior to his suicide, Sun had been detained and beaten by a senior official
So you linked to a blog about a blog that uses treats terms like this as facts with nearly no direct reporting or attribution:
I suppose that I have too high of standards fo
NEWSFLASH: Chinese reporters are beaten (Score:2)
Beating/killing reporters that are making successful companies or politicians look bad is the standard operating procedure in China. It doesn't just happen sometimes, it happens all the time. If you are arguing that it doesn't happen, or is just random, isolated incidents, it shows that you are completely ignorant of how bad the situation is in China. Go ask any Hong Konger how frequently Hong Kong reporters or beaten. Hell, just go ask any Chinese person how frequently Mainland reporters are beaten, tortur
Re: (Score:2)
It's kind of like if John Doe, Jane Smith and Lady Gaga shopped at a clothing store whose clothes come from sweatshops, and complaining that everybody is focusing on Lady Gaga.
Not really. It would only be sort of like that if (1) John Doe and Jane Smith were also in the business of becoming celebrated recording stars, and (2) buying clothes at the store you've described guaranteed cd sales and profits on those sales.
Then you might be on to something; as it is, Dell, Acer, the entirety of the US auto industry, Sony, Toshiba, etc, etc. aren't at all like John Doe and Jane Smith.
Re: (Score:2)
What if I told you that John Doe was the head of Dell and Jane Smith the CEO of SONY?
That's the entire point, isn't it? Next to Apple, they might as well be 'John Doe' and 'Jane Smith'. Again.. is that fair? No. Is it rational? Heck no. Is that the reality of the matter to the vast majority of people? Yes.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think the hipsters are the ones criticizing Apple. And they won't until another brand gives them the ability to be smug assholes about "chosing" it.
Re:Apple and Foxconn (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps if you took a little time and learned how slashdot actually functions, the smell of fish would resolve itself as being actually the smell of your own ignorance. Those articles are visible before they are published in several ways, some paid, some not. It's trivial to prepare a response ready to go when an article goes live. If you pay attention. Or, you can wallow in conspiracy theories. Ball's in your court.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re: (Score:2)
Sigh. No, it doesn't. It shows that he had as much as 45 minutes to create a post, perhaps even a thoughtful one. That's all it shows.
Re: (Score:2)
Obsessive Apple fanboy + subscription + other Apple fanboys with mod points = copypasta post defending Apple getting modded up.
Re: (Score:2)
They're the largest Foxconn customer, and therefore have the most power to improve things.
Are they actually Foxconn's lagest customer, or simply their most visible? I would have though Dell would have been bigger given the size of it's corporate market. Do you have any stats?
Re: (Score:2)
At least they are doing their part, but not enough to satisfy some socialist "spread the wealth around" Apple-haters.
Foxconn have thousands lining up for their job openings every day, simply because working there beats working most other places in China. Are you going to improve the working conditions for everyone in China, or is working at Foxconn going to be even more of a dream job than before?
Re: (Score:2)
No, it simply is not feasible to produce the quantities necessary to satisfy demand in other countries. This has been explained multiple times: If you build a factory in St. Louis for instance, where are you going to magically summon 20,000 workers? China can produce that amount of workers in no time flat.
Moving Anyways (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple said a while ago they are moving production to Brazil. The hackers must not read the news.
Re: (Score:3)
They aren't moving, they are simply putting factories in Brazil to avoid the high tariffs that come from a nation that protects its labor force.
How many protestors? (Score:3)
How many protestors?
Oh yeah, only 12, and only at the Grand Central Terminal. Not sure about where else in the world this "protest" was going on, but would love to hear some stats on the crowds.
Re: (Score:2)
Hack the Planet!
Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple! (Score:5, Informative)
They hit Foxconn. Apple has no place in this headline or story.
FYI Foxconn is a massive company that supplies:
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)[27]
Amazon.com (United States)[28]
Apple Inc. (United States)[29]
ASRock (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Asus (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Barnes & Noble (United States)[citation needed]
Cisco (United States)[30]
Dell (United States)[31]
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[32]
Intel (United States)[33]
IBM (United States)[citation needed]
Lenovo (China)[citation needed]
Microsoft (United States)[34]
MSI (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Motorola (United States)[31]
Netgear (United States)[citation needed]
Nintendo (Japan)[35]
Nokia (Finland)[29]
Panasonic (Japan)[citation needed]
Samsung (South Korea)[36]
Sharp (Japan)[citation needed]
Sony (Japan)[37]
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[38]
Vizio (USA)
Complaining to Apple (or any other company on that list), which are all corporations that are basically legally obligated to seek maximum profit, about Foxconn's labor policies, which are fully in compliance with China's labor regulations, is an absolute waste of time. Governments control labor conditions through labor laws and regulations. Apple does not. You would think this is obvious, but I suppose I underestimate the power of "Apple" in headlines drawing pageviews and ad revenue.
Re: (Score:3)
No other company makes such obscene profits from this trade with Foxconn, so it is natural for people to hold them most accountable.
9to5Mac "verified" this? (Score:2)
9to5mac.com says [9to5mac.com]: "We were able to verify these logins worked on more than one Foxconn server"
So, did they "verify" this by logging in with these stolen accounts? Apparently so. I personally don't care, but I have to think they've opened themselves up to some legal unpleasantness...
If, for example, someone handed me a piece of paper with various logins and passwords to employee accounts at $BIG_COMPANY, I don't think it would be legal to login to those accounts. Just knowing someone's password doesn't me
Obligatory (Score:2)
Where are these kids? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Sweatshops [wikipedia.org]
Not sure why tech gets a free pass here.
Re: (Score:2)
And Nike, like Apple, definitely has enough sales margin to treat their workers better.
But then there's the other reason Apple is targeted: page views.
Re: (Score:2)
Workers get treated better when the workers own the factory. Vote Communist Party [cpusa.org] in 2012!
Why hack (Score:2)
OK, they got a bunch of Foxconn passwords? What was the point? I could see if Foxconn was a computer security company; then you'd be making ballmers out of them. I could see if you found some sort of dirt on them by hacking in, but pretty much all the dirty stuff they do is well known. So you're just proving their security isn't great?
Headline Change Please (Score:3, Insightful)
That headline should read Hackers Hit Everyone's Supplier, Foxconn.
I wonder what % of their business even comes from Apple? I am not saying Apple shouldn't be pushing to make things better they should. But, Apple is hardly the only person that uses Foxconn, the way you see this stuff reported you would swear Foxconn only works for Apple
Re: (Score:2)
This is Slashdot. They all have a moderation of Clickbait and have had ever since the site became an ad server.
It's not the wages silly (Score:2)
Every time one of these stories come up, people ask why the products aren't made in the US. A discussion then gets bogged down in staffing and labour cost issues. But these are just one part of the cost of running a factory.
Because most of the USA and Europe have strict laws about manufacturing conditions (circulation, legislation about working in areas with harmful vapours, waste disposal, etc.) before you put a single staff member on the factory floor, your costs in these regions are MUCH higher.
If you ca
Re: (Score:2)
... and made many lawyers filthy rich.