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Mac OS X Versus Windows Vista, The Rematch 709

An anonymous reader writes "InformationWeek follows up its widely read review where Mac OS X beat out Windows Vista in a head-to-head comparison, with a reader debate on which is really the superior operating system. From the article: 'Mac users love venting about Windows... Any company that calls their techs "geniuses" thrive in forums like this. They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes. Windows Vista all the way. If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X? Last time I checked, Windows wasn't just a business operating system. Tons upon tons of people use it and like it.'"
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Mac OS X Versus Windows Vista, The Rematch

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  • some effort if they just submitted:
    "MS/Apple flamewar. Begin."
    • by Funkcikle ( 630170 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:36PM (#17684304)
      Oh God. I hope nobody sees this article and gets all worked up. That would be awful.
      • by rblancarte ( 213492 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:41PM (#17684374) Homepage
        Too late.

        Overall, as a PC user, I really like to see the benefits of OS-X. To the chagrin of some of my friends, I actually plan on adding a Mac to my computer inventory very soon. I really like the system and think it has a good look/feel to it. Though a lot of my friends have knocked Apple quality and their lack of pre-announcement of products, instead letting a user blow $2k on a new laptop that they don't know in a week will be lower in price or that the same $2k would get twice the system the next week.

        That being said, I really like XP, and due to the underwhelming interest in Vista, I think I am going to be sticking with XP for a while. I just don't see the need to upgrade to Vista right now.

        • by Funkcikle ( 630170 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:44PM (#17684430)
          See, I don't think "articles" and "debates" like the one in TFA are even remotely targeted at you - the demographic is squarely those people who, for some reason or other, want to talk and fight (online) about a product. You are clearly too level-headed and sensible. Not once in your comment did you write "FFS MAC IS GAY" or "OMG XP SUCKS".

          You probably shouldn't even be using a computer...

          • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:23PM (#17685118) Journal

            Judging by the summary (which did nothing to encourage me to RTFA), this article is not for people who want to talk about the product, it's for people who are buying Vista because everyone else is (it must be true; the sales rep told them) and need to justify this choice.

            I've only been using Macs for about three years and there are lots of things you could complain about with OS X, Apple hardware, and Apple's corporate policies. Having to enable AppleTalk or restore permissions are silly things to complain about. You only have to do the first if you want your computer to share files to other Macs, and it's one click; I'd prefer that to it running a load of services I may or may not use. Similarly, the second is just not something Mac users need to bother with. There's a button to do it in Disk Utility, but I've never needed to. As far as I can tell, it's just there in case you go a bit chmod-happy in the system folders.

            If you want to bitch about OS X, try talking about the VM subsystem for a bit.

            • by Trillan ( 597339 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @04:59PM (#17687070) Homepage Journal
              Technically, AppleTalk isn't necessary to share files with other Macs, either, unless the Macs are running a really old version of Mac OS. File sharing between Macs has been done through TCP/IP for many years, and discovery has been done through Bonjour since Mac OS X 10.2 (roughly five years ago now). It's never even occurred to me to try to turn off Bonjour.

              The VM subsystem is even becoming a hard thing to point a finger at. Prior to 10.3 it sucked incredibly harshly. A denial of service attack was only one stray write away. I don't really have any complaints about 10.4's VM subsystem. I haven't noticed it taking down my Mac yet.
            • by StarKruzr ( 74642 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @05:10PM (#17687290) Journal
              If you want to bitch about OS X, try talking about the VM subsystem for a bit.

              Are you actually calling for SUBSTANTIVE DEBATE?!?!

              That's crazy talk!

              Burn him! Burn him for a witch!!!!

              (Also, in all seriousness, I would love to know why OSX's VM is of questionable quality.)
              • Re:Wait a minute! (Score:5, Interesting)

                by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Saturday January 20, 2007 @07:50AM (#17693580) Journal

                Also, in all seriousness, I would love to know why OSX's VM is of questionable quality.
                Well, the simplest way of demonstrating this is to write some code that runs in a tight loop allocating and freeing memory. Then watch the system responsiveness die to such an extent that you can't even kill the process.

                As I understand it, the problem comes from the fact that the VM subsystem is in the Mach layer. This means that every VM operation (e.g. mapping or unmapping a page) has to go through two layers of indirection, the second of which is incredibly slow.

                I wrote some code recently that mmap'd a large data structure (a few GBs). Actually, there were a few back-ends, one used mmap, one used POSIX AIO. On FreeBSD, they were both roughly the same speed. On OS X, the mmap back end was not just an order of magnitude slower than AIO, it was an order of magnitude slower than a userspace demand-paging approach (no pre-fetching). To me, this says something is seriously wrong with the VM subsystem. I should have had more overhead from all the extra system calls and extra copies doing the demand paging myself than the kernel would have had.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          I can't comment on recent apple quality, but I'm typing this on a G4 PB that still works great. I would venture to say that this is the best laptop I've ever owned in terms of build quality. The refusing the pre-announce thing is very annoying from apple though and the main reason I'm still on the PB.

          I've pretty much made the decision to never move to Vista. Between XP, OS X, and linux I should be able to run any program I need to for the foreseeable future. Of course I'll be hosed when MS forces people
        • by mikewolf ( 671989 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @04:35PM (#17686560)
          i've normally had windows machines, but over the holidays i added a mac mini to my collection of computers, and i've got to say that the initial set up of the machine was SO much easier than any computer i've ever set up that i was sold from the first minute. i plugged it in, hooked it up to my television, and turned it on, it then proceded to tell me i didn't have any input devices plugged it, and it would look for bluetooth devices. it recognized the bluetooth keyboard and mouse available in its area, and proceded to tell me how to sync the 2 devices. it then recognized my cell phone (which has blue tooth access as well), and synced up to that. It then found all of the wifi networks and asked me if i wanted to set up a connection to any of them. It was the fastest and easiest setup i've ever had with a computer. i'm still getting used to some of the interface differences between OSX and Windows, but i've got to say it is still the easiest computer to use that i've ever had. there is a lot of recognizable consistency in the OSX interface that windows is lacking. It is built for normal people to use and administer, while still allowing more technical users to be do advanced os management (which really helped me get started, b/c i hadn't used a unix box in 5 years, and only have minimal linux/bsd experience). anyways, i've got to say that the ease of use alone was enough for me to decide to use it as my main computer from now on.
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by dangitman ( 862676 )

          instead letting a user blow $2k on a new laptop that they don't know in a week will be lower in price or that the same $2k would get twice the system the next week.

          I believe if they lower the price within a few weeks (not sure the exact time frame) of buying your machine, they'll refund the difference.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about

      Seriously, who uses the word "hip" anymore? This reminds me of a scene from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (book & movie) during the D.A. conference and the talk about drugs.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) *
      I think you have the word 'begin' confused with the word 'continues.'
    • by Bega ( 684994 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @05:15PM (#17687404) Homepage Journal

      As a matter of fact, I just wrote about this in a blog, on the topic of Windows vs OSX;

      There's one thing annoys the hell out of me with Windows. It's not Windows per se -- but it's the constant brainfarts I feel that Microsoft made when designing their product. That's actually one reason why I switched over to Apple, because when I'm OSX, it can take days before the OS itself has something to tell me, or I notice the OS itself. I know, these are some incredibly small things and many people might think that I shouldn't be using a computer at all , but for me, some of these things are really frustrating and they make the user experience worse.

      Now, I don't mean to start the traditional Windows vs OS X war, but here are a few points I have noticed with my somewhat long experience with working in Windows -- the most recent one that I came to think about is how XP for instance is nagging about cleaning up your desktop icons, *even when they're hidden*. I know for one thing that I usually use the desktop for alot of stuff, and hide the icons because I rarely have to use it anyway, and this is something that I feel that Windows is screwing up with; it doesn't take into account the things you have done, e.g. hid your desktop icons.

      Then, let's take another thing -- dialogs. The thing that strikes me with the dialog boxes in Windows is that they rarely tell you in a coherent way what the dialog does. Of course, you have the usual "The text in the file X has changed. Do you want to save changes?" dialog box -- with Yes, No and Cancel buttons. This is just normal, right? Usually, the normal user would just click the button that they think is the right choice -- and I think anybody who has worked as computer support knows, that when people work a little bit longer with computers, they stop reading the dialogs and go with routine -- and this usually ends up in something being lost; "I clicked that one button and it disappeared". Another example of stupid dialog boxes is the WinXP Safe Mode prompt, when you get to choose whether you want to go to Safe Mode or System Recovery; "Press Yes to continue to Safe Mode, No to go to System Recovery", followed with a dialog box filled with a lot of text. What I do like, is the OSX way of dialog boxes; they have the same text, usually, but instead of having a generic Yes/No/Cancel-selection of buttons, the buttons themselves are captioned by what they do when you press them -- e.g. "Save/Don't Save/Cancel".

      As with Vista, the user access control is another nice feature, that I'm puzzled over what it's supposed to do. Sure, it's supposed to have your attention when a program wants to do something what the program isn't supposed to do. I've grown a bit tired in "authenticating" -- or to put it more accurately -- "approving" the actions programs want to take. I'll go to the Task Manager, start up the Resource Monitor - I get to click the approve button there already once. I wish to install Firefox? Sure, after I approve.

      Of course -- after the initial installation, I'm being bombarded with tips, tricks, tutorials and balloon tips what I can and can't do. There isn't even a checkbox anywhere, that I have the possibility to tell the System that "Yes, I have used Windows before and I would not like to receive any notification [about new features]." This is the thing that frustrates me -- the System is so in my face the whole time, that it distracts me from the work I'm supposed to do, instead of babysitting the computer.

      But this is just me. I'm sure there are somebody who agrees with these things and some others that think that maybe I should stop using computers. Maybe I should -- because with the current usability and frustration, I think we'd be better off.

  • All in one page (Score:5, Informative)

    by VGPowerlord ( 621254 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:31PM (#17684220)
    All in one page [informationweek.com] for those of us who hate ad-spammy articles.
  • Appletalk? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AltGrendel ( 175092 ) <ag-slashdotNO@SPAMexit0.us> on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:31PM (#17684222) Homepage
    Serious question.

    Who the hell uses Appletalk any more?

    Is this for printer or something?

    • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Golias ( 176380 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:41PM (#17684366)
      I kind of wondered about that, too. It's like his only real experience with the Mac comes from back in the System 7 days or something.

      They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes

      Reset the permissions? I've been running multiple OS X systems since 10.0, and I've never had to "reset the permissions" even once. I'm not even sure I know where to look to do something like that. WTF is he talking about?

      I would like to get all riled up over his flamebait... but I mostly just feel sorry for the poor, confused person writing this nonsense.
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by rbanffy ( 584143 )
        Sadly, most Windows fanboys never used anything but Windows.
        • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by happyemoticon ( 543015 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:07PM (#17684808) Homepage

          I was listening to an episode of LUG Radio where they were doing some evaluation of OS X (predictably, some loved it, others not so much, and one guy hated it just because it was proprietary.

          Many of the criticisms of OS X they struck off as irrelevant or persnickety went like this: "Why is the CD Eject button on the keyboard? That's clearly inferior to having a button on the actual drive."

          Well, hardly, because if we lived in a strange alternate universe were Apple ruled the market people would be criticizing IBM clones for having the button on the drive. Most people's complaints about OS X fall under this category. Now, if you were to make some criticisms of Finder (my pet peeves are the network disconnects, its overly-glam and non-utilitarian appearance, and its occasional sluggishness and inconsistency as it attempts to combine the worst of a relational and non-relational browsers) you might have something, and you're out of luck if you want to play any cutting edge games aside from WoW. But if you're going to carry on about how it's an inferior OS because you don't like that shade of gray, then you're a certified fanboy.

        • Re:Appletalk? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by toadlife ( 301863 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:16PM (#17684968) Journal
          A general rule is that people who participate in OS bashing tend to know little about the OS they are bashing. This applies to all sides.
          • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Gr8Apes ( 679165 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:33PM (#17685380)
            Naah. I bash Windows regularly. I'm also a long time user, admin, programmer, and system/enterprise architect at one time. I'm rather familiar with it, and know at least something about a large number of shortcomings. I've also used DOS, DRDOS, VMS, Irix, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux (various flavors), OS/2, OSX among others with some more in-depth and many across multiple versions.

            In my experience, people who bash windows typically have a reason to bash it. Even the proponents acknowledge there are problems with it. Everything from the GDI being moved into the kernel, the monolithic kernel design itself, the time-slicing approach, the inconsistent GUI, the inherently fragmenting filesystem, the horrible APIs, the bad networking stack, the poor power efficiency performance, the sleep/hibernate issues, etc are all solid reasons to bash it since others don't seem to have those problems even on the same hardware.
      • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Informative)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <martin.espinoza@gmail.com> on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:52PM (#17684556) Homepage Journal
        Reset the permissions? I've been running multiple OS X systems since 10.0, and I've never had to "reset the permissions" even once. I'm not even sure I know where to look to do something like that. WTF is he talking about?

        I'm using 10.3.something on a dual G5 and I had a problem (forget what it even was now) that was fixed by using the disk repair tool to "repair permissions" on the volume. I suspect that is what he is talking about. Apple claims that problems like that come up only seldom but anecdotal evidence out there suggests that is bullshit if you are a power user. Why perms get mangled is beyond me, I don't seem to have that problem on my Linux systems...

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Mr_Matt ( 225037 )
          Yeah - anecdotally, when I switched to OS X, every so often I'd have to reset the permissions to get DVD Player.app to play movies. Being a Unix geek, I dropped a 'diskutil repairPermissions /' as root into my crontab, to run once a week. Haven't had a single issue since then.

          Oddly enough, this was ever only a problem on my G4 mini - neither the MacBookPro I use at work or my MacBook at home have ever had permissions problems (I don't run the permissions repair in my crontab). Not sure why the G4 borks m
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          I work in a support department and we're up to 20% of our users on OSX (mostly 10.4 but we have a few 10.2 and 10.3 users still). One of the first things we do on any Mac that comes in for work is repair permissions. It's easy and fast, and about 10% of the time it fixes whatever is wrong. It seems like the Macs with the most broken permissions are those which have had lots of random things installed on them - I don't know what causes the permissions issues but for this reason I suspect it is poorly written
        • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Cerebus ( 10185 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:26PM (#17685216) Homepage
          "Why perms get mangled is beyond me, I don't seem to have that problem on my Linux systems..."

          Mostly this is because some developers insist on using brain-dead installers, even when a proper appdir is all that's needed. I even had one installer that did a chmod 0777 on /System/Library/StartupItems...*not* a good idea.
      • Re:Appletalk? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sokoban ( 142301 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:01PM (#17684706) Homepage
        Another guy says "Windows doesn't have font issues, changing permissions on the fly". What the fuck does he mean by "changing permissions of the fly"? chmod? And what "font issues" are he talking about? I sure as hell haven't ever had any, though I've only been using Mac OS since 6.0.8.

        Also, there's the guy who talks about Windows being "IT's 'Dream'" because there are a lot of people who have jobs just supporting Windows. Is the fact that Windows requires a lot of technical support supposed to be a good thing?

        Most people I know who read Information Week are IT folks of the A+/MCSE variety, so I guess this giant steaming load of an article really does reflect that.
        • by soft_guy ( 534437 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:07PM (#17684830)
          I am glad that Windows tech support guys didn't become physicians - their idea of drumming up business would be to break people's kneecaps with a hammer.
        • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by russotto ( 537200 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:32PM (#17685340) Journal
          What he says is "Windows doesn't have font issues, changing permissions on the fly, and disk errors every so often."

          Methinks our Windows-loving genius doesn't have three problems with his Mac, but rather one. Disk errors? Only time I've seen disk errors is when the disk was physically failing.

    • Re:Appletalk? (Score:5, Informative)

      by ElephanTS ( 624421 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:00PM (#17684688)
      No, just about no one uses Appletalk anymore. It's still in OSX and I use it on one of the networks I run so an old printer can work. It's very stable but has been superceded by TCP/IP and rendezvous/bonjour. It's such a great trollish comment because it's about 10 years out of date as a criticism. Bit like me saying," Windows BSODs every 5 minutes".

      It doesn't (it's up to 15 now I hear. Relax keyboard commandos - I'm joking 8-)

  • well, (Score:5, Informative)

    by macadamia_harold ( 947445 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:32PM (#17684226) Homepage
    InformationWeek follows up its widely read review where Mac OS X beat out Windows Vista in a head-to-head comparison

    If I remember correctly, that "comparison" was mostly based on the author's personal preferences. That's more of an editorial.
  • Appletalk? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NoName Studios ( 917186 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:33PM (#17684250) Homepage
    Do people still use Appletalk?

    I have two Macs at home and I can not remember using it.
  • by pdboddy ( 620164 ) <pdboddy&gmail,com> on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:33PM (#17684254) Homepage Journal
    Hah, use it? Yes. Like it? Nooooo. Tolerate it like a drunk uncle grabbing your ass at a wedding. Windows sucks ass.

    But it's where the games are. First of Linux or Apple OS to get all the games Windows gets, and I'd change in a heartbeat.

  • by snoozerdss ( 303165 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:34PM (#17684274) Homepage
    Tandy DeskMate 3.69 kicks all ass! ;)
  • informal tone (Score:5, Insightful)

    by otacon ( 445694 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:34PM (#17684276)

    If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?
    How am I supposed to take this person's opinion seriously when they speak in a 13 year old's tone?
  • I've long hated and resented Microsoft for what they've done to the competitive tech market and how they've done it.

    That said, the arguments about which OS is better seem specious. I've used XP for years now, and find it to be overall quite excellent. I suspect (and based on what I've read so far) Vista will be very good too. That doesn't change how I feel about Microsoft... they're basically an asswipe company with an "I don't have to care, I'm Microsoft" attitude.

    I recently purchased my first OS X ma

    • by Guy Harris ( 3803 ) <guy@alum.mit.edu> on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:12PM (#17684900)
      (For the record, when it comes time to get some real work done, I go running for the nearest Unix terminal, be it Solaris, HP-UX, Linux... doesn't matter, that's the OS and environment I find put together in the smartest way.)

      Same here. Of course, the terminal I usually go running for is called Terminal. :-) (I.e., most of my Unix work these days is on OS X.)

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by alfredo ( 18243 )
      Back in the 90's I was told by an Apple insider to learn MkLinux because that is the way the Mac OS is going. He also said that if MS is successful in killing Apple, everyone was going over to Linux.

      When OSX hit the market I was ready and waiting for a chance to play around with the UNIX tools. I use Links, Scribus, GIMP, Pico, and Inkscape quite often. Those were the Linux apps I used the most. If you like playing in the UNIX/Linux world, OSX has a window into it right there in the /Applications/Utiliti
    • To be honest, I don't care very much about the operating system. Ultimately, I can switch between OSX and Windows without any problems or confusion, and pretty much everything I need to do, I can do on either. Whether it's the same for you, of course, depends on what you're using the computer for.

      However, from an IT standpoint, I would much rather support OSX. I know, this runs contrary to what most of you might think, but there are a couple simple things that make me favor it so much.

      • It's Unix-y. I can use bash scripts, rsync, ssh, etc. I don't have to install anything to get that functionality.
      • Apple remote desktop. It's really good, and very simple. I've tried various things, and I haven't found anything all-in-one remote administration application for Windows that is even as close to being as simple and useful. Sure, you can cobble together various things in Windows to achieve the same functionality, but it isn't as utterly simple to deal with.
      • Imaging. Seriously. I've tried various imaging solutions for Windows, and they're all a PITA. In the best case scenario, you'll have to buy a corporate license to avoid activation, and still need to deal with driver issues, unless you're imaging a bunch of identical machines. Meanwhile, you easily install OSX to an external hard drive and use that as an imagining/diagnostic tool. There's freeware for imaging. The same image can be used for *any* Apple computer using the same architecture (Intel/PPC). The resulting disk images can be opened by OSX, and in many cases you can install/upgrade software on those images directly in the image file, without applying it to a machine first.

      Really, I've been administering Windows networks for years, and after administering a Mac network for a year and a half, I find it ridiculous how many headaches Windows still presents. After all these years, and with Vista requiring activation even in the corporate licensing, it's only gotten harder. Maybe there are issues across extremely large domains that are easier to manage with Windows, but I haven't run into those yet. But for a small/medium network, given the choice, OSX is much easier to admin.

  • Windows Vista all the way. If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X? Last time I checked, Windows wasn't just a business operating system. Tons upon tons of people use it and like it.

    I seem to recall a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's predatory practices by making it financially difficult for vendors to sell any operations system other than Dos and Windows - then there's the code stealing (Doublespace), the intential breaking (DR DOS), and other practices that, over time, have helped to lead to not just Microsoft's and Windows domination, but also the discouragement of any other operating systems from gaining hold.

    I thought there was a whole court case about this, Microsoft being found guilty or something. But since there was no punishment, I must be wrong.
  • by Erik Fish ( 106896 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:41PM (#17684356) Journal

    Now, there are four states of being in the Apple, or Mac OS X, society: Cool, Groovy, Hip, and Square. The square is seldom if ever cool. He is not "with it," that is, he doesn't know "what's happening." But if he manages to figure it out, he moves up a notch to "hip."

    And if he can bring himself to approve of what is happening, he becomes "groovy." After that, with much luck and perseverance, he can rise to the rank of "cool." A "cool guy"...

  • Um, no? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ruiner13 ( 527499 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:42PM (#17684378) Homepage

    they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes.
    Ok, let's see a show of hands who actually uses Appletalk any more? Anyone? Yeah, didn't think so. I've had my G4 (the first AGP one) for a long time. Know how many times i've had to reset permissions? None. The only times I've heard people having to do that is when an OS update happens, which is what, 4 times a year? Compared to how many times I've had to reinstall windows because of virii, corruption of the registry, etc, it is nothing. FUD at its finest.
  • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) * on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:42PM (#17684388)
    If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?

    Because when they get a computer it has windows on it. There first computer is usually really cheap so it has windows on it. When they need more all their software is for windows so they get a windows PC. Windows will always have more market share then OS X Because OS X Requires you to get a Mac. Even if 20 years ago Macs are like Macs now and PCs were like PCs then, and prices were the same. DOS Will still win because people felt more comfortable with choices.
  • by Etyenne ( 4915 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:42PM (#17684394)
    That's another way of saying "sanctionned flamewar", right ?

    I guess there's a market for that kind of thing.
  • by Scrameustache ( 459504 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:43PM (#17684402) Homepage Journal
    If organic meals comprising all food groups, rich in fiber, vitamins and proteins are so much better, than why are more people eating at McDonald's?

    Same deal.
  • Great arguments (Score:5, Insightful)

    by melikamp ( 631205 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:43PM (#17684412) Homepage Journal

    If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?

    If Hitler [wikipedia.org] sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with him than with Asoka [wikipedia.org]?

  • Use *and* Like? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DreadSpoon ( 653424 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:44PM (#17684418) Journal
    "Tons upon tons of people use it and like it."

    The first part we are all aware of. The second part... on what basis did that come from? I can't think of a single person who "likes" Windows. They simply use Windows because they don't have a whole lot of choice: it's either all they know how to use, or the only OS that plays their games, or the only OS that runs on, etc.

    You might even be able to convince me that people like Windows [i]more than[/i] alternatives, like OS X and Linux. I could easily see that. OS X has some really dumb design flaws and Linux is still a pain in the ass to use as soon as you want to run non-standard software (not even Debian packages *everything*, people). In a lot of ways, Windows is easier and it's quicker to get certain things done.

    However, I still don't buy that there is a great number of people who "like Windows" entirely on its own merits. They might like it better than nothing, or better than alternatives, but that's isn't the same as liking Windows. It's like saying that I like having a broken arm because it's better than having no arm or having a frost-bitten arm.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The OS rants are really becoming pointless. Do I like Windows? Sure, it helps me do many things I need to do. Just like a fork at the dinner table. Do I like OSX? Sure, I like spoons, too. Is a spoon better than a fork? A socket wrench better than a crescent wrench? Depends on what you want to do. So I have an iMac and a Windows PC. Some things the are better on the PC, some are better on the Mac. Odd thing is, I've experienced iTunes crashing on the iMac, but never on the PC.

  • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:44PM (#17684428) Journal
    Seriously, how many people are being "sold" a piece of software which is really only supposed to be the interface between your hardware and your applicaitons, and judging it based on a zillion other criteria?

    I don't do any "work" in the OS. It doesn't make me money. It doesn't (shouldn't) add anything. It is - and I'm going to get pedantic here - an Operating System. Can we just get over the whole OS as an application thing? Okay, I suppose in the era of GUIs, it's a windows manager, too. We, the "consumers" have apparently been duped in to thinking that the system that runs the basic computer system should also get us coffee and a handy when we're in the mood.

    I read part of the article, and it's talking about constency and feel, and pretty gui widgets. I'm less and less impressed with how efficient these things might make us, to the point that I think much of the OS is actually getting in the way of getting work done. Heck, it's almost as bad has having /. in term of productivity loss - sure it's fun, but when you get down to it, it's really just a waste of time.

    Who knows, maybe I'm a slackware guy after all. Or maybe I'd do better with OS-X. But in reality, the programs I run happen to run on x86 architure and rely on Windows componenets, so there isn't much choice. I'd just like to get back to the basics. For a windowed environment, I guess that's NT3.5(1). Man, I just feel old today.
  • by PingSpike ( 947548 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:46PM (#17684450)
    I haven't read the article...but I'm hoping that the pro microsoft camp has better individuals at its desposal then the one quoted in the topic summary. What was that? A little bit of fud mixed with an irrelevant point (is appletalk even used anymore? And doesn't vista now require you to click through a ton of permissions crap to do anything as well?) followed by the "Its good because its more popular" arguement? I mean, I don't like Microsoft much but there's plenty of valid advantages that windows have...but that guy just falls back on the old personal attacks and half truths.
  • by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:47PM (#17684462) Homepage Journal
    Look, I use it - have had every version of Windows and DOS since the first one - except for WindowsME.

    But like it? That's going way too far.

    Put up with it - much more accurate description ...

    That said, though, in the end the only reason I still have a WinXP machine is so I can play Sims 2 on it. Seriously.

    Everything else I have works on Linux or my Mac Mini with OS X.

    And looking at WinVista requirements - I was finally enjoying paying $500 for a high speed 11b/g laptop - I don't want to shell out another $2000 to buy a computer that should be a commodity like a TV that sells for $300 to $500, just so I can run what appears to be mostly graphics upgrades to look pretty that would be far cheaper on a Mac. So, given they've jacked the OS price for Win Vista to double, unless some killer app comes out - I'm taking my Open Office and my Opera and my Firefox and migrating off of Windows forever when they kill WinXP support.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in this decision.
  • Irony (Score:5, Insightful)

    by greysky ( 136732 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:48PM (#17684478)
    From the article:
    I can't wait until the first Mac Virus hits... I want to see how cool Mac OS X is then.

    Is it just me, or does anyone else see this statement as just a little ironic?
  • by rolfwind ( 528248 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:52PM (#17684546)
    Microsoft was at the right place at the right time originally, that is why its OS is so dominant these days. Upgrades are usually taken because they are the path of least resistance.

    Saying it is better because of its marketshare is just a logical fallacy based on popularity. It is like debating religion and saying one is right or wrong based on its "marketshare."

    For me, simply, Microsoft is the inferior OS to BSD, Linux Distros, and Mac OS X simply because it is a security nightmare in so many ways - and I have to spend my time working, not running antispyware, anti-adware, or fixing other things about the OS (registry). I also find Microsoft asks me to push the "OK" button too often for crap, or nags me about updates (every 5 minutes after I initially say "no") when I just want the OS to shut up and stay out of the way. That is my metric, some people have different metrics (games, certain apps) and that makes Microsoft suitable to them.

    (BTW, saying that an OS has certain exclusive apps does not make that OS inherently superior as 3rd party apps, by definition, aren't inherent to the OS. It is a reality we all have to live with, but I think it is disingenuine to say that the OS is innately superior because of this, rather than simply acknowledging that it might be more suitable because of said apps.)
  • Who loves Windows? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jc42 ( 318812 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:56PM (#17684608) Homepage Journal
    Tons upon tons of people use [Windows] and like it.

    Huh? In my experience, almost all Windows users hate it. They use it because they have no idea that there's a choice. They didn't buy "windows", they bought "a computer", and that mysterious thing called "Windows" came with it. From the name, they understand that "Windows" is the thing that draws the windows on the screen. All computers do that, so they all have "Windows", right? Even those who have heard of Apple tend to think that Macs run Windows, because you can look at the screen and see the windows.

    An important reason for all this is that Microsoft has an advertising budget larger than the budgets of all their competitors combined. This simple situation is all you need to understand MS's market dominance. (Though their ability to lock out competitors via their contracts with retailers also helps.)

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ThinkFr33ly ( 902481 )
      Your experience must be very, very limited.

      In my experience, almost all Windows users hate it. They use it because they have no idea that there's a choice.

      Most of the people that I know don't hate Windows, and most of them know about the Mac, and a few even know about Linux. I know it makes the "niche-os" communities feel superior to say this, and I know it helps many of them rationalize why more people don't like their particular "niche-os", but the fact of the matter is that most people just don't care. Windows gets the job done for them, and some of them actually like Windows.

      They didn't buy "windows", they bought "a computer", and that mysterious thing called "Windows" came with it.

      Come on man. This might have been th

  • *sigh* (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Toreo asesino ( 951231 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @02:58PM (#17684638) Journal
    Is anyone else here thinking they don't give a shit too?

    I mean, this whole thing pretty much boils down to "which one do you prefer?" - how scientific is that?!

    Give me a real debate ffs; better default security, faster networking, better f/s, better app-support, better memory management....anything! Anything but "which one's better?"!

    Christ, it's Friday night, everyone's going out and I'm on slashdot. Good evening everyone, the beers are calling.
  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:00PM (#17684680) Journal
    ... how come so many more people, billions infact, are non Nobel Laureates, eh?
  • by Quiet_Desperation ( 858215 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:01PM (#17684712)
    ...the popularity = quality correlation fallacy?

    500 million people a year catch malaria. Wow! Sounds like the thing to do!
  • My experience... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by adrew ( 468320 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:16PM (#17684970)
    I switched to Mac in '00 and haven't looked back. In fact, the machine I purchased then, a dual-processor Power Mac G4, is still running great and is my primary machine at home.

    Windows is rapidly catching up to OS X feature-wise, I'll admit. But each time I go home to visit family I end up fixing at least four Windows machines, despite the fact that I loaded them all up with AVG, Spybot, AdAware, and whatnot on my previous visit. A couple of years ago my sister told me that she needed a laptop for college. I told her I'd buy her one under one condition -- it had to be a Mac, since I didn't want to support Windows over the phone. Initially she was a bit reluctant, but quickly warmed to OS X and hasn't had one problem with her iBook.

    I work at a university and my department has about 60 Macs ranging from iMac G3s to dual G5s to Core Duo Mac Minis. Most of them are used by students and they are not locked down at all aside from the OS X administrative password. I have zero problems with spyware, viruses, unauthorized programs or anything like that. All I do is run Software Update a few times a semester and they pretty much take care of themselves.
  • by Bastian ( 66383 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:22PM (#17685108)
    Any company that calls their techs "geniuses" thrive in forums like this. They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes.

    Since having switched to OS X and Linux (from Linux and Windows) as my desktop OSes six years ago, the thing that I've found the most amusing about my new life on the other side of the fence has been the multitude of comments like the above that I'm now noticing.

    Starting with the "cool and hip" stereotype, I have to wonder why people make such a big deal of this. If I had to hazard a guess, it's that it really comes from discontent with the historical crappiness of the asthetic aspects of most PC manufacturers' industrial design. I'm pretty sure it doesn't come from Apple users themselves, most the ones I know (myself included) are pretty geeky - which makes sense, given that geeks, being more confident with computers, would naturally be more comfortable with switching platforms, and I'm sure that at this point a strong majority of Mac users are converts who switched over after Apple finally canned that accursed classic Mac OS. It certainly doesn't come from Apple users' chatter; almost the entirety of pro-Apple and anti-Microsoft comments that come from Mac users are made on technical grounds.

    As for fixing permissions and restarting AppleTalk, well, I'll grant that they might have last used an old version of OS X where disk permissions did have to be repaired fairly often, but AppleTalk???? I didn't know there was anyone who even remembers AppleTalk anymore, let alone actually uses it. While we're at it, let's criticize Thinkpads based on the crappiness of token ring networking.

    It's much of the reason why I stay out of the Mac vs. PC debates for the most part. What's the point of talking to someone who's surrounded by such a strong reality distortion field (yeah, I said it) that they think they're an expert on the merits of OS X when really they haven't spent more than an hour of their lives using it, and at the same time assume I don't know a damn thing about computers because I'm a Mac user, when really I'm a software engineer and spent a hefty amount of time programming native apps on both platforms.

    I wish some of these folks would come back down to earth and admit that the only real reason they don't like Macs very much is that there isn't a version of Half-Life 2 for OS X.
  • True Story (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 4iedBandit ( 133211 ) on Friday January 19, 2007 @03:25PM (#17685188) Homepage
    This happened just last week.

    My company has a policy where by all purchase orders must be submitted using a form in Outlook. Forms are the one thing my Mac can't do because Microsoft dosen't want Macs to have Outlook. (Run OS 9 to get Outlook? Get real, I haven't run "classic" Mac OS in over 6 years. It's not even installed on any of my Macs.)

    So I fire up my PC. Outlook is hosed. No problem, just uninstall and reinstall from the company file server. Connect to the VPN, go out to the file server and AUTHENTICATION DENIED.

    WTF? Try several times, on the phone with company tech support. They check my permissions in the domain, still can't get in. Finally I say, "Hang on, let me try something."

    I close the VPN tunnel on the PC. Connect to the VPN on my Mac. Go straight to the file server and login without a problem using the same domain credentials. Download the Outlook installer and then map a drive letter on my PC to my Mac to get the software to my PC.

    Ironic isn't it? Windows would not authenticate with a Windows file server in a Windows Active Directory Domain. But my Mac just waltzed right in and got what I needed.

    I don't hate Microsoft because of Windows. I hate Microsoft because they made mediocre software the standard.
  • by screeble ( 664005 ) <jnfullerNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday January 20, 2007 @12:49AM (#17691870)
    I'm extremely suspect of this blurb as the AppleTalk quote isn't from the article.

    That's a quote from reader comments made by someone who is so far out of touch with OS X it isn't even funny.

    Is this really how stupid Window-Fanboyism has gotten that the complaints are over OS X services that aren't even turned on out of the box? I've got two Macs running OS X and I didn't even know they were still capable of using AppleTalk until I started poking around in System Preferences to see how to turn the service on. Sure, it works and it's easy to set up zones but why anyone would use AppleTalk to try to talk between Macs and peripherals these days is beyond me.

    Bonjour makes discovery extremely easy and the negotiation happens automagically.

    And this reset permissions crap? I'm lost. Really. I have no clue what that guy is talking about. The only time I ever reset permissions on anything was when I wanted to move some GarageBand Loops to a place the system owned without adding them to GB through drag-and-drop. The only reason I had to take ownership of the directory was because I wasn't using sudo from the terminal.

    The submission is pure flamebait. Slashdot moderators need to go back to moderator school.
  • by Orlando ( 12257 ) on Saturday January 20, 2007 @07:07AM (#17693448) Homepage
    The majority of these same people either don't know there are alternatives, or aren't in a position to change. They don't 'like' it, they just put up with it.
  • by master_p ( 608214 ) on Saturday January 20, 2007 @07:38AM (#17693530)
    MacOS X may be superior, but the difference between Windows XP and MacOS X is not that great, and certainly not so big as in the days of Windows 3.1/MacOS 7. With Windows XP, one can do many tasks with very little problems.

    As for Vista, I do not know why I have to have them. XP with SP2, Firefox and Thunderbird, Antivirus and Firewall works extremely well. Shiny icons and transparencies will not make me reformat my hard disk.

It's fabulous! We haven't seen anything like it in the last half an hour! -- Macy's