Steve Jobs Demos NeXTSTEP 3.0 465
node 3 writes "Following the current trend of posting video from product demos long past, openstep.se has posted a 55MB video from 1992 of Steve Jobs demoing NeXTSTEP 3.0. They already have 4 mirrors hosting the file, but hopefully someone will set up a torrent (I would, but I don't have a place to post it). If you find the demo compelling and want to try out NeXTSTEP for yourself, you can always go here or here to get started."
old apple ads (Score:2, Insightful)
You have to consider... (Score:5, Funny)
If they only posted old Microsoft ads, it would basically be mass murder of geeks who died from internal hemorrhaging as a result of uncontrollable laughter.
Anyone that saw the recently posted video of Ballmer touting Windows 1.0 knows what I'm talking about.
It's not an Apple Ad - It's a NeXT ad (Score:2, Informative)
Re:old apple ads (Score:2)
If by "it", you mean a minute fraction of market share, you're right.
I've used Macs and I do not find their interface, marketing, or company very appealing. Also, the crowd is way too liberal for me.
Re:old apple ads (Score:3, Funny)
Re:liberals produce s/w, conservatives h/w (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:old apple ads (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean the crowd that includes Rush Limbaugh and Tom Clancy?
Re:old apple ads (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a right-wing Mac user. (Score:4, Funny)
And I LOVE my Mac!
-ccm
Re:I'm a right-wing Mac user. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:old apple ads (Score:4, Informative)
Still, what kind of moron bases their decision of which computer platform to purchase on the perceived political opinions of most other users of that platform, rather than e.g. it's technical capabilities, usability, design strengths etc.
How can a computer be "right" or "left" anyway? Does the G4's assembly language have instructions for creating socialist socio-economic systems? Give me a break --- what a load of crap.
Next NeXTSTEP? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Next NeXTSTEP? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Next NeXTSTEP? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Next NeXTSTEP? (Score:2, Funny)
I find some humor in the fact that your post is modded too low for you to even read.
Re:Next NeXTSTEP? (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Geez (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, it would be sad if after these things being rescued from the ravages of time and analog media, they were lost to the ravages of time and the broken Slashdot search function the instant that the blogosphere's attention span moves on...
Dissapearing History (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Dissapearing History (Score:3, Insightful)
Might want to take a step back there, to rejoin us in reality.
Re:Dissapearing History (Score:2)
When "trusted computing" becomes a reality, said "lunatic" might not be too far from the truth. And if such technology is invented, it'll be illegal (read: illegal, jail-time, not illegal, 1 in 100000 chance of getting sued) to break it.
Might want to have a look at where your reality's heading. "Orphan works" are all too real, there was an article posted quite recently here.
Re:Dissapearing History (Score:2)
Re:Dissapearing History (Score:2)
Mind telling me what part of that you disagree with, or all of it, and if so, why?
Re:Dissapearing History (Score:2)
Re:Geez (Score:3, Informative)
wayback machine. try on for size:
http://www.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gray/movies.html
Re:Geez (Score:5, Insightful)
The second threat to archival is digital rights management, content protection, keys or any other kind of 'protection' is basically going to kill long term archival.
I think pure MPEG video is still the best candidate.
Re:Geez (Score:3)
Since you obviously use Windows, do a search for 'Quicktime alternative' to get around having to use Apple's Quicktime Player. MPlayer, vlc, xine et al support Quicktime as well. http://www.openquicktime.org/ [openquicktime.org] has a nice library you can use.
Hopefully, someone else can comment on the quality of Ogg as a container format for video.
where'd the torrent go? (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, think about it people. This video was made in 1992!!! It is amazing how advanced NeXT was at that time. I mean, that machine is what?...a 68030? 040? 33MHz? Amazing! A lot of the technologies that we take for granted in MacOS X were already around at the time, as well as some other things (such as OpenDoc) which were not introduced in other systems for years and have yet to be re-implemented.
Truly an impressive OS.
Oh, and it is great to hear Steve Jobs say "BOOOM!" during his demos. ;)
Old Hardware (Score:4, Interesting)
It was due to the fact that programmers understood the hardware's limitations and made do with what they had. Regardless of whos.. Be it a Mac, an apple IIGS, atari ST.. whatever...
Today, its 'just throw some more cycles at it, the user can just upgrade'. All the wonderfuly fast hardware and gobs of memory have made all the system guys lazy..
Good point! (Score:5, Interesting)
but think about it. Back in the 80s and early-mid 90s, a lot of things on computers were VERY hardware limited and developers had to program efficiently to get things to run with some semblence (sp?) of speed. IANADeveloper, but it seems to me that that kind of efficiency has for the most part disappeared (and this is not a knock on developers...you guys are doing amazing things!).
I guess I just imagine about what it would be like if the same kind of efficiency that was used to make things run quickly on an 040 was used to make things run on a G4 or G5 today and it blows my mind.
Of course, there is a lot that I don't understand about developing and the hardware has also advanced so much that programming for efficiency due to hardware limitations like developers had to back in the day probably doesn't apply as much any more.
thoughts?
Re:Good point! (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, optimizing compilers have very nearly caught up with human assembly programmers, at least when using modern chips with complex architectures and very aggressive internal scheduling (depending on platform, of course).
Finally, there is a place where very high levels of optimization and hand-coding are still used: console games.
Re:Good point! (Score:2, Interesting)
Not really. Chips have gotten fast enough that it really is a moot point 95-99 percent of the time.
Even the best optimizing compilers are still putting out much of the same crap they use to five years ago.
Re:Good point! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Good point! (Score:2, Interesting)
A lab I worked in back in the 90s had a few 'cubes and some similarly speced old UNIX workstations. NeXTstep was far and away prettier and more advanced, yet noone used those boxes unless they absolutely had to. They were just *so* slow. After a couple days of using a NeXTcube and watching the the beautiful UI update in slow-motion and the machine constatly swapped you'd be begging to be back to using twm and X11R
Re:Good point! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:where'd the torrent go? (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft is going the way of declarative interface programming with languages like XAML, which I disagree with. I take issue with not knowing about the interface objects until run-time which can cause all sorts of issues, particularly display issues. NextStep/Cocoa, on the other hand, actually stores the object graph into a "freeze-dried" file in Interface Builder (the famous NIB files), serializing all the objects and bringing them up in a flash when the application runs.
It's truly a neat technology to play with. Too bad most of the major apps on OS X are sticking with the Carbon route to avoid rewriting their codebases. Cocoa gives you so many things for free, you even get automatic spellcheck available for any input fields if you want it.
Re:where'd the torrent go? (Score:3, Interesting)
There's an o
Flawed management helped keep NeXT out of sight. (Score:4, Insightful)
Many of the apps that came out for the OS were profoundly overrated and overpriced. There were some unquestionable gems here and there (some gems were even available with source code so one could learn from them, like the sorting demonstration application which allowed you to sort groups of bars of varied heights using different sorting algorithms), but I think many people looking back on what NeXT had to offer are wearing rose-colored glasses and are likely to have never owned NeXT hardware.
My experience with my NeXT Cube (ownership starting with NS 2.1, user experience starting before that, perhaps with v2.0) helped lead me to appreciate the free software movement. I didn't have my software freedom then and now I do, using commodity hardware I can afford to enhance and replace if need be.
Re:Flawed management helped keep NeXT out of sight (Score:4, Interesting)
As somebody who used NextStep from 0.9, I'd agree that NeXT had some cool stuff, and that's what kept them afloat. But I'd agree more with the previous poster: their ultra-proprietary, we're-smarter-than-you, sealed-box attitude was part of what killed them.
I remember one cool University of Michigan software project that required a pseudotty for each remote user, but the kernel NeXT shipped was limited to something like 16 or 32. NeXT wouldn't let you build your own kernels and refused to build a custom kernel for the project, suggesting that the developers buy new NextCubes to accommodate the extra users. End result: the project had to be rebuilt in another language and used Sun hardware, and some local NeXT evangelists swore never to touch them again.
Yes, I can certainly see why developers would be upset that NeXT gave them frameworks to build upon, which let them build their highly profitable trading systems very, very quickly. No, what they really wanted was a primitive system which required them to start from scratch.
Well, actually, what the builders of trading systems wanted, at least the ones I worked with, was kits with source code that they could view and change. It was hugely frustrating to be bitten by some annoying bug or limitation, with the only recourse being to call up your sales rep, give him an earful, and hope, generally in vain, for a fix some months later. This was especially fun when the bug or limitation caused problems for traders, some of whom would express their displeasure by five or ten minutes of screaming verbal abuse.
And really, the focus on high-dollar customers like financial traders was also part of what killed them. In the mid-90s I could have written and sold a ton of great solutions built on NeXT technology, but only financial traders could afford to license the NeXT OS or runtime.
I loved the NeXT technology, but NeXT's high-handed, arrogant behavior eventually drove me and a lot of other early adopters away cursing the day that Steve Jobs was born.
Re:where'd the torrent go? (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe the fact that Jobs is still in business?
Re:where'd the torrent go? (Score:2)
ok your amiga was cool...
That explains it (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, this is pretty cool stuff. You can definitely see the broad strokes of OS X in most every part of this demo. Interface builder still ruled.
A few years ago, I was this close to buying a NeXT box at a University surplus store but it wasn't in booting condition and I didn't have time to determine what was wrong with it. WOuld have been fun to play with though.
Re: (Score:2)
It's More than Just a Dock redux(was Re:Afterstep) (Score:4, Insightful)
- Display PostScript --- true WYSIWYG, and the ability to do rich on-screen stuff like display (auto-updating) dimension lines in a drawing program by just typing up some PostScript code.
- Services --- these allow any app to take advantage of any other app which provides a Service. There're Services for sorting text, convert TeX source to in-place graphical equations, printing envelopes &c.
- Customizable UI --- tear off menus allows one to decide which command is most easily available and where it's available at.
- Dynamic run-time binding means that installing a filter service affords said capabilities to any other app, w/o recompiling.
William
(who misses NeXT's vertical menu, Display PostScript, Webster.app, pop-up main menu, concise shortcut descriptors and lots of other things on his PowerMac G4 at work in Mac OS X, and appreciates them greatly on his NeXT Cube at home
Re:It's More than Just a Dock redux(was Re:Afterst (Score:2)
Re:It's More than Just a Dock redux(was Re:Afterst (Score:2)
My experience of NeXTstep more or less consists of this video, but I think he's refering to the menus which, in Mac OS X as well as earlier Mac OSs, are along the top of the screen. In NS, they seem to be in a floating pallet, with one menu item on top of the next.
Re:Afterstep (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Tom Cruise and Oliver Stone's baby (Score:2)
Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:5, Interesting)
The only thing immature about OS X coming out of the gate was the Aqua interface, which they finally patched up around 10.2.
On an unrelated note, on Panther, and with Tiger upcoming, the interface is so polished that everything else feels six years behind. I can't help wondering what Apple will offer to compete with Microsoft in the update after Tiger, which might be coming out the year Longhorn ships if Longhorn doesn't delay again. Longhorn sounds like they're ripping off a ton of OS X technology, like a new display technology, hardware-accelerated window drawing, and so on. And what new apps will take advantage of
Honestly, though, it would be nice of more of the major OS X apps took advantage of Cocoa instead of hanging onto Carbon for dear life. Dreamweaver MX 2004 runs like a dog, and Photoshop CS is little better.
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2)
I could not agree with you more.
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2)
You can thank Adobe's brain-dead business model for this. Instead of trying to make great stuff that highlights the strength of each OS they develop for, they've largely abandoned doing things first on the Mac in deference to having feature parity at ship time.
This is why Photoshop CS is slower on th
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2)
yes, it will compete (Score:2)
Your going to need some strong, immediate, and obvious reasons to get a CTO to buy all new boxes with 'new' OS and interface.
Or a CTO that wants the company to take a long term apraoch to savings..haha I crack my self up.
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2)
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:2, Informative)
Um, no. NeXT had Display Postscript. Quartz is much closer to that than to QuickDraw.
Re:Almost looked like a demo of OS X (Score:3, Interesting)
Quartz uses a PDF imaging model. Display Postscript uses a Postscript imaging model. PDF's imaging model is not terribly different from Postscript's imaging model.
Quickdraw's imaging model is like neither.
Quartz is architected quite differently from Quickdraw, and is rather more complex, because it has more to do.
Quartz does alpha compositing. Quickdraw does not.
GNUstep demo (Score:5, Informative)
For thoses who want to see how programming is done in GNUstep, there's this short flash demo here [gnustep.org]
GNUstep is a free software implementation of the OpenStep API (like Cocoa), and it provides development tools as well. The demo steve do is doable in GNUstep as well..
(Yes, it's flash... a mpeg version will probably be available next week... in the meantime, it's a good idea to check either swift tools [swift-tools.net] or swfdec [schleef.org] , if you don't want or can't use the Macromedia Flash player..)
Re:GNUstep demo (Score:2)
Font Rendering (Score:2)
Re:GNUstep demo (Score:2)
GJC
Re:GNUstep demo (Score:4, Interesting)
Something like this [roard.com] ? or that [roard.com] ?
Mirror (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.collegechixors.com/jobs_NS30_demo_smal
WndowMaker (Score:3)
If you want a more end user solution, you might want to go here [windowmaker.org].
Wow.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow.... (Score:5, Informative)
All I can say is, what the heck happened
Well, basically, NeXT overcharged their hardware, then their software. For example, you probably never heard of WebObjects, even if it was (still is actually) one of the best technology to create a dynamic website... and it's no wonder considering they used to sell it at insanely huge prices. Now you can have it via Apple for 500$ ...
this is big enough stuff that they should have been able to get through a few lean years and sell the technology....
Well, they did :-) -- to Apple ...
Actually, the problem they had, is that nearly nobody in the industry was used to OOP. Now it's easier to understand the brilliance of NeXTSTEP's concepts, but it was probably more difficult to convaince people at the time ? (check the real media video on openstep.se/next/videos , they take half the video to explain the interest of OOP before introducing IB..)
And of course, a NeXT Cube and even a NeXT station were extremely expensive... too bad, they were 15 years ahead of their time (yeah, OSX is not as clean as NeXTSTEP, partly because of the need to integrate all theses existing apps..)
Re:Wow.... (Score:3, Interesting)
From the code I see out there, I'm pretty sure the industry still isn't used to OOP. Of the Java code I see in industry, about 80% of it is one of
Re:Wow.... (Score:2)
Re:Wow.... (Score:2)
an x86 port was eventually released (along with several other platforms, like PA-RISC).
Re:Wow.... (Score:5, Informative)
From a 1992 Usenet post of the Winter 1992 price list These prices are in the ballpark of comparable machines from Sun and Apple.
but he did say he was going to port to 486. I can't help but wonder if a 486 could do this kind of stuff (a dx 100 could, but I think the dx33s where current when this was being done). All I can say is, what the heck happened?
It was ported to Intel in the 486 era, but it didn't really become practical to run until the Pentium 2. Ran pretty well on my AMD K6-350, if I recall correctly. Supposed to scream on Athlons.
In addition to Intel, it was ported, and sold, to run on Sun Sparc workstations and HP PA-RISC workstations.
I've read a bit of the history (I hear those MO drives they Next Stations ran off of were kinda buggy), but this is big enough stuff that they should have been able to get through a few lean years and sell the technology....
It wasn't the stations that had the Optical drive, it was the cube. That was the machine that got really expensive, when loaded up with a NeXTDimension color graphics card, big hard disks, and lots of RAM. The Optical was dropped before very long, and the Cube just shipped with a floppy drive. I think the Turbo Cube (33 MHz) couldn't even connect to the optical drive.
What happend to NeXT is (roughly) this:
First, customers realized they didn't so much want the hardware, they wanted the operating system. So NeXT dropped hardware and started doing their OS for other peoples' hardware.
Second, customers realized it wasn't so much the operating system they wanted, it was the development tools. So NeXT came up with a way to run the development tools on NT. And they had their WebObjects product, which let people use NeXT development tools to do web apps. So they de-emphasized the OS.
Then Apple bought them. The dev tools for NT were de-emphasized, except as a way to do WebObjects development. The OS was refreshed and updated, a process which continues.
Jonathan Hendry
This demo is staged (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This demo is staged (Score:5, Informative)
Nope. Looks more like the 21" color. (Score:2, Informative)
The mono monitor was ribbed, or flanged. I have two in the room with me. The monitor in the video is not. It also looks too big to be the mono monitor, which only came in 17".
Also, the mono monitor had fat rubber rollers at the front of the base. It actually looked a lot like the old Apple IIc greenscreen monitor, which was designed by the same company (frogdesign). The monitor in the picture lacks the rollers.
(There was a differently-designed mono monitor towards the very end of the black hardware era (i
Best quote... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So little has changed (Score:5, Interesting)
- the color picker (except for the fact that it was a grayscale monitor)
- Interface Builder
- Terminal.app is dead-on, except in his NeXT it took me a couple of tries to get an actual prompt to come up
- Drag and drop everywhere
- The beachball when an app is loading
And when I saw Jobs demo the WordPerfect, I thought, "So what's the big deal about Pages again?"
Morror mirror on the wall.. (Score:2, Informative)
Torrents available for updated QT versions (Score:4, Informative)
I've made torrents available at:
http://nedron.net:6969/ [nedron.net]
the future of Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
-bbh
Re:the future of Linux? (Score:3, Informative)
I 'Heart' WindowMaker (Score:5, Interesting)
The designs, ideas, and concepts were all there in the 90s waiting to implemented. And, as hardware improved, there could have been an advanced desktop built on top of Linux that would have been a very compelling alternative to Win9x, if not the leading edge of desktop innovation.
Instead, we got a start menu, a task bar, and a dump truck full of skins.
At least nowadays the Gnome people have set their sights much higher, which is great to see.
I loved WindowMaker and wished it was so much more than a lowly window manager. Ironically, I suppose, it took Apple to make that happen for me. At least these days I can afford to buy a Mac.
Re:I 'Heart' WindowMaker (Score:3, Interesting)
A start menu and a task bar is pretty much what OS X uses (Apple menu, dock), together with a bunch of quick-launch buttons. Despite all the hoopla, the OS X GUI is not all that different from any other GUI: separate apps, file storage o
Re:I 'Heart' WindowMaker (Score:3, Interesting)
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Whether a system has a task bar or start menu is completely irrelevant to its quality or user experience. Yet many people (still) believe that a Windows or Mac desktop is nothin
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
It's amazing (Score:4, Insightful)
Over 10 years later, tasks like e-mailing, starting a program, and even browsing a network look very similar to what he's demoing, and I'm talking about MS Windows (PC) use. I'd still like an easy-to-use inter-application dictionary. I'm sure the editors of slashdot could use one too.
The whole thing is pretty bittersweet (Score:5, Insightful)
This is sad, first of all, because it illustrates just how much Windows's domination has stalled everything in the interim. It's like we've been stuck in a time warp, with nothing changing except processor speeds, for 10 years. Now, since the DOJ suit, things seem to be unfreezing a little and progress can start up again--maybe. But how much further along would be be if the industry had actually had meaningul competition all these years, and if the NeXT vision had not failed so completely to make a dent in Microsoft's two monopolies?
The other sad thing is that Jobs is still basically just trying to get that vision reinstated. Even playing sappy music while showing family snapshots--everything is the same from demos then and now, only now it's part of iLife. But what if he doesn't have any more big visions beyond what he did at NeXT? We've been living so much in the dark ages that everything old looks new and exciting, but at some point we'll have everything NeXT had again--and then what? Is that the end of the evolutionary path we're on? (In terms of real computer development, not consumer electronics.)
Seeing him mention Lotus Improv led me to the Wikipedia entry on it, which led me to a (pretty awful) OS X version of Quantrix, which led me to understand that when Cells comes out, that is probably exactly what it will be like, with premade templates for commonly-used home functions like blood-pressure management and weight control, and an emphasis on beautiful charting and graphing, so Apple can deny that it is trying to mess with Excel. And again, we'll be back to something wonderful that we should have had a long time ago. I mean, reading PC Magazine and having them celebrate Pages as a new way of thinking about word processing . . . it really is just a reimplementation of another ancient NeXT program, Pages by Pages.
So anyway, the whole What Might Have Been feeling is just so strong for me when I see this stuff. You can see why Jobs ended up feeling bitter.
PyObjC & GNUStep (Score:3, Interesting)
Currently, PyObjC is kind of limited to OSX.
JsD
Re:Torrent (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Torrent (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, wrong links.
small [nedron.net]
large [nedron.net]
Courtesy of Macslash.
Re:Torrent (Score:2)
Re:Torrent (Score:2)
Re:God it's so annoying (Score:5, Funny)
Because there is only one true God, and His name is THE WOZ.
Re:God it's so annoying (Score:2)
WOZ [wikipedia.org] RAWKS!! But I guess they both did alot for the industry!!
Re:God it's so annoying (Score:2)
I don't troll around on Gate's items...
I am happy Jobs is sucessful and I apreciate and understand his vi
Re:God it's so annoying (Score:2)
well, that and he didn't kill thousands of people.
Successful? Bah! (Score:4, Funny)
How can you call him successful? He only makes $1 a year!
Re:"Boom" (Score:2, Funny)