Inside the iPod, Past and Present 409
We mentioned the iPod Shuffle dissection a couple of days ago. Reader UtahSaint writes "Electronic Design have got a neat little article giving non-Apple employees
an insight into the makings of the original iPod and the revisions made (on a technical level) with the 2nd and 3rd generation iPods. The third-generation iPod contains two power-management chips from Royal Philips Electronics, a TEA1211 and a PCF50605. The TEA1211 is a dc-dc converter that can switch automatically between step-down and step-up operation in response to changing input voltage. The PCF50605, a single-chip power-management unit (PMU), can adjust power-supply voltages to the lowest thresholds needed for functions in a particular power domain." And finally, sammykrupa writes "PC Mag has a great review of Apple's iPod Shuffle. It covers the quality of the audio output saying that it is has dead-flat frequency response, less harmonic distortion, and most notably, better bass response than its bigger siblings. The older iPods, especially the Mini, have been rightfully criticized for being somewhat deficient in bass, and although the bigger players have flat frequency response, they have trouble sustaining big bass notes."
Let me be the first to say... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
Does it really matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPod is designed to take with you and hear music on the bus, or while jogging - with headphones. Does it really matter how good the bass is if you listen to it with headphones anyway? I think not.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Informative)
My Sony Minidisc does bass wonderfully, and even compensates a bit for it's limited maximum volume.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
Huh? Isn't that why most subwoofers have a separate volume control?
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
There's a helluva lot more to classical music than Bach solo violin sonatas. If you're listening to Beethoven's fifth on a system without a subwoofer, you bought the wrong system.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
Wrong. The subwoofer is doing the job of those two speakers. Which means that instead of stereo sound, you get mono sound, for one. I've yet to see a subwoofer system that has good bass imaging. It's got bass, but you can almost always tell that it's coming from the subwoofer and not the speakers. In my experience, the assumption that bass is non-directional does not hold at all for freque
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Funny)
Fuck you, you fucking tuba hater. I hope you get run over by someone carrying a Sousaphone.
=)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Interesting)
By the way, if proper bass reproduction (not boombox-thumping bass like) makes you difficult to listen to the rest, your audio gear is poor. And not in the "it's not audiophile! get $1000 wires!" sense of poor.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
My Headphones (Grado SR-80) have a pretty good bass response, but the treble and midrange can only described as "detailed." The Grado SR-60's are similarly high resolution, but they are somewhat weaker in the low end.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
The complaints are really about the puny headphone amp in the iPod anyway. Audiophiles are using a good headphone amp on the dock connector's line out... Right?
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
You most certainly can bass-boost on the iPod. There's an equalizer setting for it.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:5, Funny)
Trouble is, the subway you're riding does an even better job at producing bass.
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
That's a strange question, you now ... (Score:2)
Of course, when you on the bus or jog, you wear less than high quality headphones, but even then, those cans often have fairly decent bass.
From my experience: my speakers are KEF 104.2, good cans I use for listening at home are AKG 240DF, their lower frequencies are much better than KEF. But even my portable cans, Koss Porta Pro (and Sporta Pro), provides some really decent low fre
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:2)
Re:Does it really matter? (Score:3, Informative)
In classrooms of the future... (Score:4, Funny)
Makings of the original iPod? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Makings of the original iPod? (Score:4, Insightful)
Buried in the article, there was this key fact. Owning all the tiny hard drives on the market for more than a year translated into a long-term perception advantage for Apple -- that iPod == Smallest == Sexiest now and forever.
Had they not had the foresight to monopolize the formfactor, the iPod would have been one of a half-dozen similar models on the market just as it was picking up and it might have been lost in the pack (especially because the early models were firewire only).
Sound Quality (Score:5, Interesting)
Hard on the batteries (Score:4, Informative)
Without examining the circuit myself, I could imagine that when the batteries fall below Vcc that the converter switches from step down to step-up to provide additional play time, until the batteries are completely drained.
Maybe someone can confirm/deny this.
Re:Hard on the batteries (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG (Score:2)
Re:WRONG (Score:5, Informative)
1st gen: Buttons around wheel, mechanical wheel
2nd gen: Buttons around wheel, touch wheel
3rd gen: Separate touch buttons under screen, touch wheel
4th gen: Click wheel
Bingo... (Score:2)
The only things that don't fit neatly into those groupings are the Mini and (arguably) the iPod Photo - but the Photo is really just a 4G iPod beefed up for a color screen, and the Mini is kind of a "3.5G" iPod - it has the click wheel that wound up in the 4G.
Re:WRONG (Score:2)
IMHO, the second and fourth gen are by far the best.
Re:WRONG (Score:3, Informative)
I know it's heresy to say it in Slashdot, but Wikipedia is wrong (again). The picture is mislabeled. However, the text is correct when it says, "The 1G iPod featured four buttons - Menu, Play/Pause, Back, and Forward - arranged around the circumfer
huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
I had a 3rd gen, now I have a 4th gen. Both drove my Grado SR-60 headphones (think Radar from Mash) just fine. In fact- they do a noticeably better job driving them at low frequency than my Powerbook.
Any problems with low frequency response probably have something to do with the fact that, despite the Steve Reality Distortion Field, you cannot get good low-frequency response in a tiny little earplug. You can put marketspeak on your website till the cows come home about Neodymium magnets make 'em better- they're still just tiny earplug speakers.
Re:huh? (Score:3, Informative)
For some reason, a lot of portable devices have poor low frequency response. Most of the time is to save a few bucks in parts - i've
Re:huh? (Score:2)
The real huh! (Score:3, Insightful)
Flat is flat. Either the old players are not flat and deficient in the low frequency spectrum, or the new player is not flat and has some kind of boost. The fact is that when most people hear flat they think, "Where's the bass?"
The article says nothing of the test data, equipment or methodology
Re:The real huh! (Score:2, Informative)
Because frequency response is measured with a purely resistive dummy load. Speakers tend to have wildly varying impedances depending on the frequency, and if the impedance goes low enough, then the driver which has a flat frequency response at high impedances now can no longer push enough current to keep the frequency response flat.
Numerous high-end headphones will try to pull more current than a lot of consumer equipment can push, which is why there are headphone amps (well, that and to add
Re:The real huh! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:huh? (Score:2)
Of course, you can always plug your iPod into a real amplifier and get all the bass you want through real speakers.
Re:huh? (Score:2)
Hopefully my new iShuffl
Re:huh? (Score:2)
Re:huh? (Score:2)
It kinda cements my desire to get an iPod Shuffle (Score:5, Interesting)
Not only is it diminuitive, great value (probably because of the lack of screen, but the 1GB Shuffle is £10 cheaper than a 512MB Sony, and £30 cheaper than a 1GB Creative in the UK). but it is actually pretty damn good.
Will this be the first Apple hardware I ever buy? Where will it end?!
Re:It kinda cements my desire to get an iPod Shuff (Score:2, Funny)
Cringely on Mac Mini, iPod, and Apple's plans (Score:5, Informative)
Mini + iTunes = Apple's HD TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure there'd be a subset of people willing to buy the current season of 24, Lost, Housewives, or American Idol and play it on their TV anytime - and burn it to disc.
HD Movies? Who cares. Today's TV shows? Sure! At a dollar an episode, why the heck not? It comes out to be cheaper than the DVD. Fans'll buy the DVD anyway, because of the extras.
Who knows whether this'll happen or not. But the box is just sitting there, waiting to be plugged into your TV.
Hidden iPod Shuffle features? (Score:5, Interesting)
With all of the iPod Shuffle discussion and disections, I am surprised to see that no one has commented on the extra lines in the USB connector.
If you look in the connector, there are five small lines between the main USB lines. (BTW, these are not included in the Shuffle's dock.) There is also NO USB logo's in any of the packaging or documentation.
It looks like Apple may have some secret features up their sleeves.
Hacking the iPod Shuffle. (Score:3, Funny)
solder resistor between lines 2 & 3 - Shuffle grows full color OLED touch-screen!
open Shuffle and cover circuit board with cream cheese, insert in USB slot - $500 USD springs from CD drive!
stick bent paperclip in headphone jack - Steve Jobs comes to your home and cleans your car!
Re:Hidden iPod Shuffle features? (Score:2)
Re:Hidden iPod Shuffle features? (Score:5, Informative)
Standard USB specifies the existence of hosts (with Type-A connectors) (such as desktop computers) and peripherals (with Type-B connectors) (such as hard drives, cell phones, digital cameras, etc.) Hosts are not supposed to connect to each other, and neither are peripherals.
The USB-To-Go specification was created in order to allow pseudo-peripheral devices to connect to each other (e.g., you might connect your cell phone to camera so that the phone can send the data, even though both of these are peripherals to your Mac). By connecting the fifth pin of the type-B connector to ground, Vcc, or letting it float, you indicate to the other (type-B) device whether you want to act as the host, act as the peripheral, or whether you just behave like a standard USB device.
Coincidentally, most of the mini-B connectors sold these days are 5-pin, because legacy devices can just leave the fifth pin floating. From the manufacturer's point of view, there is no reason to have two types of interchangable items in stock. So my guess is that AAPL bought what was for sale on the market.
--js
I don't care what anyone says (Score:5, Funny)
on simplicity (Score:5, Insightful)
-- Antoine St. Exupery (1900-1994)
Re:on simplicity (Score:4, Funny)
~Lake
You hear what you want to hear (Score:5, Insightful)
I've compared an .aiff file played back through my computer's rackmounted audio interface (made by MOTU, for those who care, and also connected to the Soundcraft desk) and the same track played back from the iPod. I don't hear a significant difference in bass response. The people who complain about bass must be using 'phones with impedance that doesn't agree with the iPod's headphone jack.
It's not true, u dont need a test, its just not... (Score:3, Interesting)
Dead-flat? I really doubt it, then again PC mag made the call, not Audio-Media, Post or Mix...
Computer mags and websites should sincerly refrain from judging audio... because when they do, a million techno morons go down the street speading bullshit like they know what they talk about, they just repeat lies and since no one even them knows what they are talking about and those geeks have techno credits in other peoples mind, other people start spreading the same bullshit but with the telephone game kicking in (story gets modified each time it is told...), sentences changed to "my friend who studied programming told me that the audio performance of...".
Re:It's not true, u dont need a test, its just not (Score:2)
I agree that a lot of computer magazines don't know audio, but getting ruler-flat frequency response (when driving low-voltage loads) has been pretty easy for a long time - this isn't 1975.
Of course flat response isn't the whole story - linearity, distortion, jitter (or WOW/Flutter for analog people), cause lots of problems, and this is where some of the sonic differences arise. There may also be problems in dr
Re:It's not true, u dont need a test, its just not (Score:5, Informative)
FWIW, a tech heavyweight (trying to remember if it was Bruno Putzeys?) said they'd measured the iPod and got a perfect 10K tone out of the bugger with virtually unmeasurable sidebands.
NOT easy. That outperforms a heck of a lot of high-quality CD players, never mind mp3 portables. iPods apparently have very good tech if you know how to measure them. Jitter is what that 10K tone test measures, and it performed very, very well, I'm told.
Re:It's not true, u dont need a test, its just not (Score:2)
What does this mean? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What does this mean? (Score:2, Funny)
The best audiophile BS (Score:2)
Re:What does this mean? (Score:2)
Great iPod Shuffle Review... (Score:2)
"Supported File Types: Audible, MP3, WAV, WMA"
Hehe.
OK, I stop this lame joke.
Seriously: What is "Audible"? Never heard of that file format.
Re:Great iPod Shuffle Review... (Score:2)
Audible.com [audible.com] is the #1 online source for downloadable audiobooks. As far as I know, it doesn't use its own format; that's just a journalistic gaffe.
Re:Great iPod Shuffle Review... (Score:2)
Audible files come in either ".aa" files (Audible's homegrown DRM system) or iTunes DRM. The aa files are wrappers around low bitrate voice codecs (from voiceage, i believe) for formats 1-3, and format 4 is mp3 (32kbps, 22khz).
Re:Great iPod Shuffle Review... (Score:2)
used to have a "$100 off mp3 player" signup deal - which was pretty slick (signup was for a year at 15 or 20/month). Now looks like it's just a free trial - sucky.
The cool thing is you can always come back and re-download the files - unlike certain unnamed music services - even if you no longer have an active paid membership.
Re:Great iPod Shuffle Review... (Score:2)
Outpost.com claims that too:
40 GB [outpost.com]
20 GB [outpost.com]
I've sent them 3 e-mails since Thanksgiving. I eventually gave up.
Scott
Does anyone really care what "we prefer"? (Score:5, Funny)
From the review of the shuffle:
Are we supposed to CARE how you use random play? How you use random play is a personal decision, and should NOT factor into the review or the score you give the product. You might play it that way - others might not.The review should have been, not on the way they would prefer to use the device, but how well the device works within the parameters it was designed for. That is, it was designed as a small-form random-play digital music player, and it does very well within those parameters.
This would be like reviewing a Kia and mentioning "We tend to drive luxury vehicles like a BMW, and wished that this car was a luxury car instead of an econobox," and scoring it down simply because it wasn't a BMW.
Re:Does anyone really care what "we prefer"? (Score:3, Insightful)
So it woul dbe like comparing the Kia to another econobox that does have features that the Kia is missing.
Apple has done it... (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux incompatible ... so far. (Score:2, Informative)
According to the author of foo_pod [hydrogenaudio.org] for FooBar2000, there's the usual iTunesDB database, but also a new one, called iTunesSD [hydrogenaudio.org]. They haven't been able to completely reverse-engineer this one yet. It turns out it isn't sufficient to simply write to the iTunesDB database -- songs won't play.
Searches on Google [google.ca] show nothing about the iTunesSD database.
Low bass on purpose (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe they did it so they don't have to hear:
thud, thud thud..
every time someone with an iPod comes walking.
If I were a car manufacturer... that would be my motivation for better soundproofing. To stop people from being so annoying.
(it's always sounds like the same damn song too doesn't it?)
My mini sounds pretty great (Score:3, Interesting)
In any case, mostly I listen, not via headphones, but via line-out hooked up to the car stereo. My car stereo isn't great and the car listening environment is inherently sucky, but it doesn't suck with the iPod any more than with CD. And that's my glowing review of the iPod mini.
Power management (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Overrated (Score:2)
Re:Overrated (Score:2, Interesting)
Oddly enough, the iPod Shuffle is cheaper by a mile in the UK. The competitors have done simple $=£ translations, and Apple haven't. Unless you want to listen to idiotic radio shows on radio on your MP3 Player, or record yourself having a fap, the iPod Shuffle is the best value on the market. In the UK at least.
Re:Overrated (Score:2)
Functionality matters more than aesthetics, but each has a weighted value to a purchaser; to most people, AAC support/tiny size/lithium battery/USB2/simplicity outweigh the screen/crappy radio/voice recorder/la
Re:Overrated (Score:2)
"Sync with iTunes" is all the functionality I need (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, if the NexIA supported Ogg that would be enough to beat the Shuffle, but I've emailed the company about it and the strongest answer I've managed to get is "maybe eventually." Contrast this with the strong possibility that Tiger's iTunes will support it (which means the iPod should as well), and there's no longer any doubt -- the Shuffle is the clear winner.
It's kind of sad, really, because I'd like to have removable storage, but being able to use the thing is more important.
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:3, Interesting)
My guess is that even if it could, it wouldn't be by very much.
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:5, Informative)
You forgot one crucial piece in the first part of that: the amplifier stages.
The crappiest set of speakers and headphones will sound much better through a decent preamp and amplifier than the most expensive speakers and headphones will sound through a $19.99, underpowered clearance special.
If, in fact, all media players have identical, real-world response, then you'd be correct. This is seldom the case, though. A lot of manufacturers skimp on the preamp and amplifier stages in audio equipment to save a few bucks because, after all, digital is digital.
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:4, Informative)
Most every portable player anymore uses an integrated chip to perform the MP3 playback and amplification and many players from different brands will use the same chips. The implementation of the circuitry however can still make a significant difference.
But for the really discerning audiophiles, the only way to get decent sound from a portable player is to use an external headphone amp that utilises higher quality components and generally operates at higher supply voltages which helps provide more generous amplifier headroom. There really is a difference and you can hear it readily with better quality headphones.
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:2)
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:2)
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:2)
Other replies have covered the technical side. But it may be the case that because they have a positive emotional response from using the iPod, for whatever reason (iPod's looks, enhanced self image, etc.) it actually does sound better to them even though the sound waves are identical.
Re:quality of the audio output (Score:2)
Blake
two questions (Score:3, Funny)
Re:two questions (Score:2)
The IRS
2. Are they hiring?
Yes.
Re:PC Competition for the Mac mini? (Score:2, Insightful)
Good point (Score:2, Insightful)
You mean the printed circuit boards? Good point.
Re:Related story (Score:3, Interesting)
In the small print at the bottom of Apple's iPod shuffle page:
#2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.
It's now off the site, but still exists in Google cache: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:z3uW4DuVNvoJ: www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/+ipod+shuffle&hl=en
Re:iVent (Score:2)
Re:iVent (Score:2)
Re:iVent (Score:3, Funny)
Re:On Bass (Score:2)
Compare the output from a decent set of earphones (I use EX71s but I know people that even go as far as Shure S5s... which is *way* overkill IMO) between a decent amp and an iPod.
The iPod is very weak on the lower frequencies.. this can kill some kinds of music. Even an MD player (much cheaper so should be a worse amp in theory) does this better.
I refuse to use EQ or 'bass boost' as mostly these things just destroy the clar
Re:Flat frequency response in consumer audio (Score:3, Informative)
Look at the chart, it's all there - that's how our ears work. We aren't good at hearing lo and hi frequencies, so if we listen to material with a flat response, we perceive the 1kHz-4kHz range as being "louder".
because then we should be going to live performances with EQ-adjustable ears, which we don't.
At live performances, we have engineers whose job it is to equalise the performance material both according to the properties of the v
Re:Look ma, I'm a consultant! (Score:3, Insightful)