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Apple Businesses

Memo to Apple: Respect Your Resellers 113

An anonymous reader writes "As Apple opens more and more stores across the country (they are going to hit 88 by the end of 2004, according to top Apple retail honcho Ron Johnson), small independent dealers claim to be taking it in the shorts: five are suing Apple for all sorts of nastiness. Here's an interesting prescription for how Apple can make things right with its resellers and still open lots of shiny stores for the masses."
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Memo to Apple: Respect Your Resellers

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  • As a customer... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:44AM (#9496269) Journal
    When the jack broke off my laptop power cord, where did I go? OK, in fact I sent my wife to demand a refund, but where did I send her?

    To the Apple store in the mall. There are probably several closer third-party Apple shops, but who knows who and where they are? The first thing that comes to mind is that glowing white, elegant store filled with all the latest Apple gear.

    So, whether Apple is doing anything predatory or not, they could hardly help but displace the third-party stores.

    • Re:As a customer... (Score:3, Informative)

      by RegalBegal ( 742288 )
      Not only the aesthetical aspect of it.

      But the nearest Apple distributor near me is CompUsa.

      Now I can take my iPod there if I have a problem (I didn't buy it there) ORRR I could goto the apple store where not only do they know what they are talking about (or seem to more than CompUSA droogs) But there is little to no bad attitude when I'm in there.

      It may not be much but it's why I'll drive 30 extra minutes to the Apple Store than to CompUSA.
    • Re:As a customer... (Score:5, Informative)

      by djtripp ( 468558 ) <djtripp@nosPam.gmail.com> on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:00PM (#9496491) Homepage Journal
      Since there is no Apple Store in Alaska, I did have to go to the local Mac shop to get a new Yo-Yo since mine died. Since they have a 1 year warranty from date of purchase, i called Apple, they faxed me my proof of purchase, and I went to the shop, and got me a new one for free (3 day longer and It would have cost me something). Apple vendors don't make much money from doing warranty repairs, especially if they are sent to Apple for the fixing. As for finding where the closest Apple shop that's easy, Store Locator [apple.com]. Support your local Mac shop, unless they are a bunch of egotistical idiots, then go to the most knowledgeable shop near you. (In my case, surprisingly enough, CompUSA)
      • did you just say knowledgeable and CompUSA in the same sentance? Thanks! I needed a laugh today :-D
        • Yeah... I actually did. They have a manager that's a big Mac guy, he's trained his minions (well a good amount of them) and they have a good full time Apple rep there, whom used to be a retail rep at the store.

          The local Mac store, have a bunch of pretentious butt heads, with jacked up prices (except for the actual Apple stuff which they have to price at Apple's MSRP). And pretty much disseminate bad info and turn people away with their holier than thou attitude. Welcome to my Mac Store. Bow Down! Now

          • by Anonymous Coward
            Sounds like Jack Black of High Fidelity [imdb.com]

            Barry's Customer: Hi, do you have the song "I Just Called To Say I Love You?" It's for my daughter's birthday.
            Barry: Yea we have it.
            Barry's Customer: Well, can I have it?
            Barry: No, actually, you can't.
            Barry's Customer: Why not?
            Barry: God. Do you even know your daughter? There's no way she likes that song. Oops, is she in a coma?
      • Re:As a customer... (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Okay, so I'm not the only person who thinks the AK Mac Store is run by egotistical idiots. I avoid that place as much as I can. If I am looking for an accessory and CompUSA doesn't have it, I occasionally venture to the AK Mac Store. Only if I need it in a pinch, though, since their prices are higher than any mail order INCLUDING shipping! They use the excuse that it costs more to get stuff up here. But that excuse doesn't hold much water in the biggest city in Alaska these days. Our cost of living is
    • Re:As a customer... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Golias ( 176380 )
      I'm with you. I've found the service at most Apple resellers to be even worse than what you get at a typical PC "screwdriver shop," while the staff at the Apple store has always fallen all over themselves to help me with every nit-picky little problem or question I have. Apple resellers taking it in the shorts? There might be a few good ones out there, but for most of them I call that karma.
      • There are exactly two Apple resellers within 50 miles of where I live -- a CompUSA and a small-time shop, both of them about 30 miles from my house. There was a third, a few years ago, that was about 10 miles away. I called them once, asking for information about buying a replacement power adapter after the cat chewed on the wire of my old one. Suffice to say, they were no help at all -- and I ended up ordering via the online Apple Store. Now the reseller shop I called is out of business, and I'm not su
    • Re:As a customer... (Score:5, Informative)

      by rixstep ( 611236 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @03:38AM (#9504586) Homepage
      So, whether Apple is doing anything predatory or not, they could hardly help but displace the third-party stores.

      This is not true. A lot of 'mom and pop' stores have built up significant reputations in their community and companies in the area will go to them because they've accumulated quite the expertise over the years.

      Going to an Apple Store is never going to net you expert help. The staff there are about as good (bad) as Best Buy and are paid comparatively.

      Real professional resellers I know say their business has actually done better since the Apple stores, as the interest in Apple has grown and they still have the reputation, so people still end up contacting them for the big jobs.

      Which is what I would do too. Our reseller is 'outtasite' and we might walk by an Apple Store, but we'd never buy anything there. Not only do we want to support the local businesses, but we know we get qualified help there - something we would never get at an Apple Store.
  • Service Calls (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hungus ( 585181 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:52AM (#9496361) Journal
    From the article
    Apple had previously referred service calls to CDS. But increasingly, Apple refers service customers to its own retail operations, claims Verga.
    Being an AAST (Apple Authorised Service Tech) the Apple Store here in the Dallas area has allowed me to put business cards in the front desk. The stores don't do out of warranty work, so they encourage techs, VARs and solutions providers to list themselves at the stores. This being the case I really think these foxes are crying about grapes (imperfect Aesop allusion)
    • Re:Service Calls (Score:3, Insightful)

      by BigBir3d ( 454486 )
      Yeah, guy in the article whining about 10% business loss would have lost 10% due to more competition (store locations) regardless of who is running them. Business is like life; adapt or die. WBM is not taught in business school as a means to success.
    • If the VARs want to keep their relationship with Apple - they need to bring something to the table - and Apple is quick to prop up those who help them out.

      Reselling brand name computers is the next record store - you dont need em - and if VARs want to stay in business, they're going to have to change - they're going to have to bring something to the table. Because there's nothing interesting about SELLING Macs.

      Providing ACTUAL service is interesting... being a go between between me and Dell or me and Ap
  • by ibullard ( 312377 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:01PM (#9496503)
    Because I have. Five of them. They're all holes in the wall, at least thirty minutes away and you can walk around for half an hour before they'll even acknowledge your presence. Then they charge 10% more than Apple does on their web site.

    I was in one where I walked in, started browsing around and was completely ignored by the staff. A pretty woman walked in about five minutes later and the salesman immediately asked what he could do for her. I was going to buy an external HD but since they couldn't be bothered to help me I couldn't be bothered to buy one.

    It's no wonder they don't like the competition, they suck. Apple's stores are a world better.
    • Yeah, pal, I feel your pain.

      I worked at Circuit City last summer, and, as a switcher-in-the-making, I got all excited when I found out about the Apple reseller down the road. First time I ever tried to start a conversation, he made some stupid comment about my Circuit City shirt, then lectured me about how Apple would *never* release a computer with an IBM processor in it.

      Since he was the only game in town, I referred customers to his shop whenever we didn't carry a product they needed, but warned t
      • By the way, what ever happened to those rumors about IBM making the new processors for Macs? Those ever pan out?

        IBM made the G3's (which Apple just recently took out of their iBook line.) and makes the G5's, which are in Apple's current desktop line.

        When was this that this idiot thought Apple would never release a computer with an IBM processor in it? Apple and IBM have been working together on processors since the mid 90's.

        • I can never get sarcasm to work right on slashdot. I'm just thankful that I got modded "Interesting," instead of "friggin' idiot".

          I have like ten AC comments that are modded "troll" and are followed by rants and cursing...At least you were polite, Daniel.

          I really do like Apple, slashdot! Why can't you see that?!
          • > I can never get sarcasm to work right on slashdot.

            It's the net in general. Without visual and audio cues it is really hard to differentiate sarcasm from ignorance or stupidity.
          • I use ;) a lot when I'm being sarcastic, or I try to be so over the top that it comes through. The latter method doesn't work so much on Slashdot though since there are a lot of dense people reading this site. :)
          • by Anonymous Coward
            Just throw <sarcasm> ... </sarcasm> tags around the text.

            I know it seems stupid and over-the-top, but as the other poster replied, without other cues it is the only way to be sure you aren't misunderstood.

            <joke>
            <redundant>
            <not very funny>
            Just remember not to go overboard on tags though. That's just annoying.
            </joke>
            </redundant>
            </not very funny>

            PS. It does mean you have to post with the Extrans option though.
        • Apple and IBM have been working together on processors since the mid 90's.

          Oh even earlier. The PPC project was Motorola, IBM, and Apple, and I remember the first release around I'll guess 1992, so they've been at it maybe 14 years or even longer.
    • by American AC in Paris ( 230456 ) * on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:37PM (#9497004) Homepage
      Because I have. Five of them. They're all holes in the wall, at least thirty minutes away and you can walk around for half an hour before they'll even acknowledge your presence. Then they charge 10% more than Apple does on their web site.

      Amen. What's more, the Apple Resellers I've been to are almost invariably tucked into nondescript storefronts in nondescript commercial developments. They are, in a word, boring places.

      I go to the Apple Store and it's fun. It's well-lit and aesthetically pleasing, the products are all out in the open just begging to be played with, and the staff are almost frighteningly professional and courteous. No cheap brown carpet, no bare metal racks, no random stacks of crap lying around, no buzzing industrial-grade fluorescent lights, no hand-written sale signs on orange starburst paper cut-outs.

      I walk into an Apple store and it feels like a candy store for big kids. It's a fun experience. I walk into the typical Apple reseller and it's nothing special.

      Which store would you rather frequent?

    • i know this sounds kinda crazy, but did it ever occur to you to actually go up to one of the people working there and tell them that you wanted to buy something?
    • by Analog Penguin ( 550933 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:49PM (#9497886)
      Word up, brother. I've not yet made it to an official Apple store, but there are three places in my area that sell Macs. One is this tiny little hole in the wall that looks like some guy's garage after an earthquake. There are random machines and empty boxes strewn about. The staff respond to questions with one-word answers. It's impossible to find anything, and you can't get any help. I gather their repair business is decent, but as a reseller, this does not make Apple look good. The other one has one or two gumdrop iMacs on a shelf in the back somwhere. The final one is our good friend CompUSA, where salesmen say things like "The Mac doesn't have enough RAM to run a two-button mouse, and anyway it uses a different format for the Internet so you can't talk to your friends." It has been like this for as long as I can remember. It was worse back when places like Sears were in on the deal, too.

      It's not like Apple didn't give the resellers their chance. They've had their chance for twenty years, and most have consistently blown it. I'm surprised Apple put up with this shit for this long. I'm sure there are some friendly, helpful, well-organized places run by knowledgable individuals, and they have my sympathy, but I've certainly never been to one.
      • by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:58PM (#9503428)
        I agree with you completely... but the key is that most have blown it, not all. Some of the shops (god only knows where!) did do a good job, and did a lot to promote Apple through the years.

        It could very well be that the margins drove the quality of the resellers down, which is a shame, but... not entirely Apple's fault.

        FWIW, I buy most of my Apple stuff at the worst place of all... CompUSA... when the Apple store is two blocks away. As much as I hate the ignorance of their employees, I was never the kind of person to really like a boutique shop... for actually spending money.

        But, you can't blame Apple... It's an image thing...
      • by sdmacguru ( 628469 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @12:05AM (#9503462)
        I've got to chime in on this. I'm a former employee of a local reseller in San Diego.
        Would I want to be a customer at that reseller? Not really. Location is a warehouse in an industrial park, entrance is hidden on the side, merchandise is not super-well-organized, prices are not displayed on anything and all the customers, apparently, phone each other and come in at the same time. So the effect is that the sales staff is either completely bored out of their gourd or totally overwhelmed. Each of them wants to give their full attention to their customer, which is good, but if you aren't the customer in front of them, you don't get any attention.
        Additionally, they consistently fail to deliver on promises. Some of this is due to cash flow issues (c'mon, they're a small business). Some due to Apple filling orders TO THEIR OWN STORES before shipping constrained product to resellers. That's just rotten, but it happens with every new product. Sometimes due to the personnel involved: these people are Mac fanatics first, sales and service second. Their heart is in the right place, but the professionalism can be lacking.
        Lest you think I'm just dishing on an old employer, I'll say this about that. I didn't really do a lot to bring up the level of professionalism, myself. And I really liked the people I worked with, all were decent folk. I wish them well, but man, the cards are really stacked against them and not getting better.
        Here's the deal: without these front-line risk-takers throughout the 90's, I don't think Apple would be here today. Seriously.
        To have Apple fail to figure out how to work with resellers after all these years is inexecusable, to have Apple kill off this channel of sales is really, really awful. Yeah, it's business, but it just seems like corporate has to take more responsibility for the success of their resellers and they have to understand that they are burning a bridge they've been using for years if they do kill off resellers.
        Wish I had an answer, all I have is some experience.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Being an employee of an Authorized Apple Reseller (On the Tech side). We charge more than apple to make $$. Since Apple charges US the same prices as they'd charge you. As for the snotty attitude of the sales people... thats just poor sales. Most of our sales people here aren't like that. keyword is most.
    • They're all holes in the wall, at least thirty minutes away and you can walk around for half an hour before they'll even acknowledge your presence. Then they charge 10% more than Apple does on their web site.

      Not all of them. Fry's Electronics is an Apple reseller. It's far from a hole in the wall, and my brother got a brand new powerbook there for $400 less than Apple was charging.
      • Make sure your brother checks that warranty by calling Apple. Apple resellers are required to charge a certain amount for their hardware. The only exceptions to this rule that I am aware of are returns and discontinued items.

        I found this out the hard way myself. Purchased an iBook for my son from CompUSA at a great price and was told it had been used by their Mac rep (who I knew and respected). Called Apple the next day to find out it had been returned for bad video. Needless to say when I spoke to t

      • Yes but you don't go to Fry's if you have a question...about anything. The Apple Stores are much more end-user/switcher-friendly.
        • The Apple Stores are much more end-user/switcher-friendly.

          They're 'switcher' friendly because all they can sell you is a Mac.

          At CompUSA or Frys, on the other hand, they can listen to you describe your need and sell you whatever brand computer the two of you (customer and salesperson) decide is most suited to your needs.
          • At CompUSA or Frys, on the other hand, they can listen to you describe your need and sell you whatever brand computer the two of you (customer and salesperson) decide is most suited to your needs.

            Or whatever brand computer the salesperson can get you to think is most suited to your needs, and that coincidentally earns the salesperson the largest possible spiff (bonus)...

          • At...Frys, on the other hand, they can listen to you...

            That's a nice theory but, honestly, have you ever talked to a salesperson at Fry's? They're helpful if you aren't able to read the feature list on the box because that's pretty much what they do. Otherwise, I've found that they make great doorstops.

    • by Trillan ( 597339 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @03:13PM (#9498929) Homepage Journal

      We have a couple Mac retail chains around here. One of them is exactly as you described it -- overpriced crap, ancient used Macs, only one or two modern systems in stock, one copy of Panther (which had been opened and installed by the staff on their personal machines), and rude to boot. The software was, nearly without exception, from two or three years ago.

      The other is gorgeous. They usually have every model on display (last time I was in, they were missing the 15" Powerbook), set up in the same kind of way as a "true" Apple store. They've got a MIDI music station, an MP3 music station, a digital video station. The owner cut his teeth selling a batch of the original Apple computer. Most of the salesmen have been around nearly as long. I can ask obscure questions and they've got answers, and they know how to solve problems cheaply. When you upgrade, they clone drives at a minimal cost, and if they can't manage it you don't get charged.

      Guess which store has gotten about $5,000 worth of business this year?

    • I have to say, the primary Apple reseller in San Antonio, ImagiQ (yeah, stupid name), has always been pretty helpful in my experience. It is a small store in a strip center, and definitely doesn't have the aesthetic appeal of an Apple Store, but they have 7 or 8 computers out there for you to play with, and are friendly and knowledgeable. One of the guys there is even a Unix geek.

      However, even in this situation, which according to this thread sounds like one of the best, Apple doesn't have full control
    • Not all are that bad. There's a weird little shop in Portland called MacForce [macforce.com], it's located underneath a bridge in what used to be a warehouse zone, now they're surrounded by, well, warehouses, but also artisans, rare and exotic furniture dealers, etc. It's a sexy place, even better designed than the Apple Stores IMHO. Plus it's in a district with some character, not a gawdforsaken soulless mall.

      Of course, you still get ignored by the staff, and they are woefully undereducated (I nearly got thrown out once
    • J&R computer world in NY City sells Apple. Their prices are competitive and the help is as good as you get in any retail stores these days. http://www.jr.com/JRSectionView.process?EndecaURL= t&N=500011 [jr.com]
    • Here in Savannah, GA we have one Mac shop. When I moved here, I applied for a job and was shot down before the manager even looked at the application. I was shot down because he said I didn't have enough knowledge of Apple's products to be a salesman(would have been easier to believe if he had looked at the application instead of taking it from me and saying that). As the past three years have passed by, I have watched them blow things time and again.

      You hit a nail with the women part too. I can never get
  • Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)

    by FattMattP ( 86246 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:02PM (#9496516) Homepage
    There's a place down the street from my apartment in San Francisco called MacAdam. They have a poster in their window saying that their Apple reseller status was revoked because they were complaining about the warranties. According to their poster warranties for apple computers begin on the day of manufacture not the day of sale to the customer.

    Are there any Mac people here that have had this experience? I've been thinking hard about getting a Powerbook as my next computer.

    • The comment about warrenty is total nonsense.
    • Re:Interesting (Score:3, Informative)

      by Dephex Twin ( 416238 )
      I am pretty sure that the iBook I got a while back was covered from the date of purchase. Because I had bought it in November and didn't get the AppleCare extended warranty at the time. Then, when my warranty was running out, I decided to get the extended warranty, and checked the date it was originally purchased and I extended the warranty within a few days of that date, and it went through no problem, nothing about my warranty already being up.
    • Re:Interesting (Score:3, Informative)

      by reidconti ( 219106 )
      My experience has been from the date of purchase.

      Anyway, if you're buying a Powerbook you should be buying the extended warranty. I wouldn't advocate warranties on desktop systems or displays, but on a laptop it's just a must-have... Laptops in general have far, far worse reliability track records than desktops.. check consumer reports.

      I always know of at least 5 people that are futzing with laptop problems at any given time.. mostly Dell, but that's because most people I know have Dells (oh, and Dell s
      • Re:Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)

        by coolgeek ( 140561 )
        It's the day of purchase.

        Sent my previous PB-667 in 363 days after purchase because the feet came off. It was returned to me in 3 days with a new case and a new battery (because one of the feet that fell off was on the battery).
      • "Hate to say it, but odds are a laptop extended warranty will pay for itself, assuming you keep your gear for long enough."

        First think about whether any manufacturer, would sell a warranty at a loss, and then think about your last sentence again. A warranty is no different from an insurance policy: if they're to make a profit, then the overall probability of you needing repairs costing more than the warranty must be less than one.

        Then again, laptops are different: not because they are more likely to go wr
        • "Hate to say it, but odds are a laptop extended warranty will pay for itself, assuming you keep your gear for long enough."

          "First think about whether any manufacturer, would sell a warranty at a loss, and then think about your last sentence again. A warranty is no different from an insurance policy: if they're to make a profit, then the overall probability of you needing repairs costing more than the warranty must be less than one."

          Or it could be that the AppleCare revenues from desktops (which have fe

      • "My iBook has been trouble-free for the two and a half years I've owned it, but I cannot say the same of the batteries.... and at $130 a pop, it's not hard to imagine applecare being worthwhile over the span of 3 years... Hate to say it, but odds are a laptop extended warranty will pay for itself, assuming you keep your gear for long enough."

        Same here. My iBook 800 MHz battery totally died 16 months after the purchase. Fortunately I did have AppleCare and they sent me a new battery, free of charge. Ship

    • by clem.dickey ( 102292 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:46PM (#9497128)
      Apple started my PowerBook warranty from the date of manufacture. What else could they do? They had no way to know when the retailer sold it to me. They did change it to date of purchase after I faxed them the dated receipt.

      What MacAdam is complaining about, I think, are (a) the unrealistic default start and (b) hassles with Apple process to adjust the start to "date of purchase." And on those points I agree. No retail venue short of a used car dealership places as much bureacracy between itself and its customers as does Apple.
      • I like MacAdam, though like others have described, its a bit of a hole in the wall. The store isn't very well organized. Its no fun to search for things, but the staff are helpful (typically).

        Apple defaults to the manufactured date if the reseller doesn't notify Apple that a serial number has been sold. Sure the process is lengthy, but thats because of MacAdams computer set-up. I've worked with other vendors such as Mac/MicroWarehouse, CDW, the Source, etc. and each has a system that ships of information o
      • I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that registering your machine with Apple will also set the warranty date...
    • The comment about warranties from the date of manufacture is bullsh*t. I bought my iBook the first week of November 2001. I didn't buy AppleCare because I didn't have the money for it (me being a college student and all), but sure enough, I got a call the first week of November 2002 from an Apple rep, asking me if I wanted to buy the extended warranty. They wouldn't have done that if the warranty expired from the date of manufacture!
    • To put another spin on MacAdam: they've been a smug, unhelpful shop with unconscionably high costs since I've known them (sometime in the mid-to-late-1980s). I've been a Macintosh owner since 1984, but was in Boston for the early 1980s.

      MacAdam's niche was in a pre-Internet time, when comparison shopping was difficult. Plus the incredible hourly fees they charged businesses for set-up and basic administration. And the utter contempt and lack of attention to anyone not looking to purchase a complete system t
  • Apple does it better (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Whatchamacallit ( 21721 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:07PM (#9496597) Homepage
    I've seen a few Apple Dealers and frankly, they are out of their league in regard to competing with the Apple store(s).

    I purchased my first Apple in an Apple store after having first visited two Apple Dealers. I was amazed that unlike Gateway Country stores or even the dealers I didn't have to place an order and wait for delivery I could actually walk out of the store with product in hand!

    Apple's store fronts are stocked with just about every product. (minus very new products that haven't shipped yet) Their sales people are knowledgable and helpful. The store layout is excellent, you can actually find what you are looking for.

    The Apple Dealers are going the way of the DoDo and they are lashing out in frustration. The only way they can survive is to offer additional services that Apple doesn't offer. i.e. custom development, onsite service, etc. They need to build niche markets and pursue them. This means they will need to do more then simply buy and resell Apple products.

    The Apple Dealers have been dwindling for years and the whole reason Apple started opening the stores was to create market visibility in the nations shopping malls. The death of the x86 Clone Mom & Pop shops is now befalling the Apple Dealers.

    The Dealers may have been responsible for 50% of the Apple sales in the past but that is going to move to the Apple store fronts. Apple is expanding in many ways and the dealer base is simply not large enough to handle to increase.

    Some ideas for Apple Dealers:
    - Work with Graphics, PrintShops, and Sign makers.
    - Create a POS (point of sale system)
    - Create inventory systems
    - Physical Asset management systems
    - Etc, Etc. bring the Mac into new ventures.
  • by seven5 ( 596044 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:25PM (#9496836)
    Have you ever BEEN to a non apple store? Its terrible. I'm in Richmond, Va, and we have 2 third party stores and they are terrible, they provide no service, and charge an arm and a leg.

    Before we got our apple store my favorite reseeller was Compusa, how sad is that. Because the other 2 are so bad. If they want to compete maybe they should bring their Harddrive prices down a bit and memory prices, they price like apple. Its insane, $220 for 512megs of ram, and $180 for a 120 gig hard drive.

    The other thing is the speed at which they get and stock their products. Not only do they get new products about a month after they are out, they don't even have anything in the back to BUY. They keep no stock on hand. You go to buy a powerbook and they tell you you'll get it in a week. WTF.

    In my opinion the Apple Stores are just better, they may be doing some shady things, thats up to the courts to decide, but they are all around a better store for me, the customer. If the resellers want to compete, compete, not everything they have in their stores are controlled by an Apple price policy, get some deals inside, and don't charge me for a repair when my stuff is under warranty (another story for another time).

    myRant.end();
  • by Johnny Mozzarella ( 655181 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:27PM (#9496867)
    As these smaller resellers are dying out, Apple needs to develop some smaller stores they can put in smaller markets.

    I heard they were planning on developing small store fronts to put in college towns and campuses. This has yet to materialize. If Apple wants to reach more people they need to be where people are. These small stores need to be primarily showrooms where you can see the products and talk to a human. They should primarily just sell accessories and avoid stocking computers.
  • Bottom line (Score:5, Insightful)

    by coolgeek ( 140561 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:01PM (#9497314) Homepage
    Yeah I'm kind of echoing what a lot of people here are saying, I have a little different spin on it though.

    There are a handful of legendary Apple Resellers that I have heard of. Never experienced, just heard of them. For this handful of stores, it is a most unfortunate situation.

    All of the resellers I have dealt with were complete crap. Bozo sales people that couldn't field the simplest questions about specificaitons. Service people "I think it's fixed", "OH, you wanted that data?", and my favorite: "you need to call Apple". (I maintained a school network of at first 8 Mac SEs, eventually over 100 i/eMacs and PowerMacs over a 12 year period, so I know)

    Aside from my professional experience, I decided to purchase a PM/933 from a local reseller, rather than drive across L.A. or pay shipping. When I ran across the screen spasms (turned out to be a driver problem), first they blamed my non-apple display. So I bought an Apple Display (this time from the Apple Store btw). Problem persisted. I pointed out the 900+ post on the Apple discussion forums to the service techs. Still nothing. "You need to call Apple", from their top dog tech whom I previously had respect for. Why should *I* have to call Apple? I just handed them a small fortune for the system, shouldn't *they* call Apple? Wanna guess how many more dollars I spent there?

    I'm sure before the Apple Retail Project came into conception, Apple had heard thousands of stories just like mine. They knew opening retail stores would piss off a bunch of people, people that had helped them stay in business. They knew they would be sued. They knew little soapbox nazis would cry out about the injustice of it all. They also knew they had no choice but to surgically remove the cancer that had been eroding the value of their brand for the past decade. It was a simple cost:benefit analysis.

    Really, do you think the iPod would have smashed the competition without The Apple Store? I remember taking a trip to New York a couple of months after the iPod was introduced. One of the retail shops my family owns is 3 blocks away from the SOHO Appple Store, so I had a chance to hang out and watch the street. Everywhere I looked, white headphones, white headphones, white headphones. Funny when I went uptown, not so many white headphones.
    • > All of the resellers I have dealt with were complete crap.

      It seems unfair to tar them all with such a generalization. But the Apple resellers do bring to mind John Wheeler's observation that all electrons behave identically because "they are all one and the same electron." I wonder. Maybe there are maket forces which cause (or caused) them to act that way.

      My latest reseller horror story was an iBook repair. Quoted ten days, still in the shop a month later. "Well sir, you have a special model. It has
    • Re:Bottom line (Score:2, Interesting)

      by kfs27 ( 261031 )
      disclaimer: i work for an apple reseller, network var, authorized repair shop.

      why should your reseller call apple for you about a problem. they are a reseller. the warranty you receive is from apple. and apple fucks their resellers so much that it is not cost effective for the reseller to pay their tech whatever an hour to call apple for you.

      apple made thousands off of you. the reseller only facilitated you not having to wait for the item to ship, and only made a few hundred bucks. why should they spend t
      • Re:Bottom line (Score:4, Insightful)

        by coolgeek ( 140561 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @04:32PM (#9499983) Homepage
        It's called service my friend. I buy something from a dealer, I take it to the dealer when there's a problem. My VW dealers have never told me to call Volkswagen to get my car fixed.

        Let me put it to you from a different perspective....why should I give my money to a reseller, when the level of service is the same as buying it from macconnection.com? Note I don't have to pay sales tax to macconnection, so why should I pay more for the privilege of my dealer telling me to call the manufacturer?

        It's exactly your attitude that I'm talking about. "It's not my problem" I've never got that from The Apple Store. The resellers deal with their supplier is not my problem; I gave my money in good faith to the RESELLER not Apple. Therefore, I expect service from the RESELLER. And I think maybe you missed the real point...this particular reseller (*cough* Di-No) missed out on selling me not one but two powerbooks, a G5, a 17" and a 23" Cinema, all because of that attitude. IMO they deserve to be out of business for failing to take advantage of the opportunities right in front of their face.

        If the margins aren't there for an Apple reseller, then perhaps this type of channel cleansing is a good thing, no?
      • Re:Bottom line (Score:3, Insightful)

        by fyonn ( 115426 )
        why should your reseller call apple for you about a problem. they are a reseller. the warranty you receive is from apple.

        because he didn't buy the machine from apple, he bought it from a reseller and if he has a problem with his machine then it is the reseller he has a contract with and it is the resellers duty to resolve that problem. the resellers problems with their suppliers, and details of any profit they may or may not make are none of his concern.

        I'm sorry but it annoys me when shops refuse to car
  • I agree (Score:4, Informative)

    by jivemonkey ( 776115 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:20PM (#9497527) Homepage
    I am an apple reseller. I work for a campus store where we sell Apple computers and a few other things here and there. I can't count the number of sales we have missed out on because we don't keep them in stock. But, being the size we are, we really can't afford to buy a bunch of computers and hope that people buy them. And with warrenty stuff, we can't even help people. If I can't fix it by myself really easily, I have to say "Here is the number, you will have to call them." And, I have to have a smile when I say it. It does't work. It would be fantastic if we could have a nice Apple front and have some things in stock, and a Genius Bar would be awesome. I know a lot of people who could do the job.

  • Let 'em die. (Score:1, Redundant)

    by solios ( 53048 )
    In my experience, Mac resellers and independant Apple servicing companies SUCK. Of course, I live in Pittsburgh, and it's a 45 minute drive out to the suburbs to get to a service center. Intelligence obviously isn't a prerequisite in these parts.

    Last time out, the assneck employee spelled my name wrong on the invoice. Twice. Despite the fact I was still wearing my work ID AND I SPELLED IT AT HIM. Then there's the several phone contacts with said service place- during which they'd refuse to specify wha
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Where I live, the Netherlands, we don't have the real Apple Stores but Apple Benelux encourages some 3rd party resellers to open stores with the Apple Store form factor etc.
    for instance the 2 'Apple Stores' Amsterdam are Apple Center Centraal Station [macsupport.nl] by MacSupport and MacHouse Amsterdam [macamsterdam.nl] by MacHouse.
    both resellers recieved financial aid to open their stores, as long as they looked like "Apple Stores"
  • Just bought an iMac (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rudy Rodarte ( 597418 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:57PM (#9498004) Homepage Journal
    I just bought an iMac 2 Saturdays ago here in Austin. I had done all the research myself and I knew exactly what I wanted, but I waited until the Apple store opened up before buying? Why? I just felt better about buying there than from Fry's or CompUSA. Plus, I met the Mac Geniuses that would be taking care of me, if I ever come across something I can't fix myself.
    All in all, it was a better customer experience, if you ask me.
    • I just bought an iMac 2 Saturdays ago here in Austin. I had done all the research myself and I knew exactly what I wanted, but I waited until the Apple store opened up before buying
      I'm sorry if I come of a bit negative, but did you check the Macrumors buyers guide [macrumors.com]? The consensus seems to be that a new iMac will be introduced on the WWDC next week.
  • who can afford to compete with apple. who can drop that kinda money on a retail store in a great location and put all that shiny stuff in their store. no one can do it.

    since the markup for the reseller is so incredibly tiny the reseller can't make money selling macs. they can only make money in service that is out of warranty or by training or consulting time.

    no one can survive just selling macs. it's impossible. there's no profit to be made in a 10-20% markup on products.

    ok iBook 1,000 dollars. dealer p
    • who sells ten macs in one day

      Apple Retail Stores. I was in a retail store not to long ago hanging around waiting for my wife to arrive. I saw no less than 5 different computer purchases walk out the door during the hour I was there. That was in one hour on a Friday afternoon. This may not be typical but I doubt it was their allotment for the month either.

      Having said that, 10% profit is not bad at all. Compare this profit margin to other markets and see. The problems I have found with most reseller

    • You think it's any different for PC vendors? Bottom line: there's no money in hardware. The only money is in service.
    • Do you honestly think that Apple makes that large a margin?
      Apple makes little more than the resellers. The real difference as has been reiterated time and time again is service and availability.
      Here in South Florida there are a few Apple resellers as well as CompUSA and they ALL suck. Now we have 3 Apple stores and the resellers can complain all they want but they suffer in comparison of service, knowledgeability, and service... not on price.
    • iBook 1,000 dollars. dealer profit 100 bucks. apple profit 900 bucks.

      cost of parts to make ibook: $0
      cost of r&d: $0
      cost of marketting: $0

      dave
      • Damn! I didn't know Apple had magic pixies (iPixies(TM)) making their laptops!

        Cost of parts 0... what bizarro world economics class did you take?
        • *sigh* sarcasm is lost once more. I know it's the lowest form of wit and all but still. I'm kinda hoping you're trying to purpetuate the joke but it just doesn't look like it.

          Book 1,000 dollars. dealer profit 100 bucks. apple profit 900 bucks.

          if the cost of an ibook is $1000, the dealer makes $100 profit and apple makes $900 profit then the cost of manufacture (and overheads) must logically be zero.

          my point was that apple don't make $900 profit on ibooks. at a guess, ibooks probabaly don't make much pr
  • From the article (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aflat362 ( 601039 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @03:47PM (#9499421) Homepage
    independent resellers still account for more than 50% of Apple's domestic sales. Should they abandon the outfit in a huff, Apple could suffer.

    I don't think anyone has an emotional attachment to CompUSA. These are Apple customers. They would continue to buy Apple products, but from either the Apple online store, Apple 800 number, or an Apple retail store. Personally, I did my research online, went to an apple retail store to look at their products, and bought my Powerbook either online or over the phone from Apple. Can't remember which.

    • I agree entirely. I live in the UK and have never seen an Apple store. Several generic computer resellers carry Macs, but they are usually old or overpriced (or both). The service staff usually steer people away from Macs. The few 100% Mac shops I've visited have been the computer equivalent of the kind of music shop where the staff laugh at you if you mention CDs. I bought my PowerBook, iPod, and Airport Extreme Base Station all through the Apple Store online. As an Apple customer, I probably wouldn'
      • I'm in the UK, and I bought my iBook from John Lewis [johnlewis.com].

        They're a big Apple reseller, but definitely not Apple-only, and their 'never knowingly undersold' motto really works. If you can find it cheaper elsewhere, they'll sell it at that price.

        The staff seemed knowledgeable and were very helpful, and while my local store had sold out of the particular model iBook I wanted, they delivered it for no extra cost from another.

        Plus, I seem to have a two year warranty on this machine...
        • Ok, but if this place went out of business, would your business to Apple computer cease? I'm guessing not. You'd probably buy from an Apple retail location (If there are any in the UK I have no idea) or you'd buy from the website. Right?

          Either that or you could be like everybody else and get a Dell or something.

          • Ok, but if this place went out of business, would your business to Apple computer cease? I'm guessing not.

            It's probably likely to outlive Apple - it's already been going since 1864 [johnlewisp...ship.co.uk]. :-)
  • by frankmanowar ( 583879 ) <frankmanowar.yahoo@com> on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @04:01PM (#9499614) Homepage
    By alienating folks like Verga and Armes, who have been the backbone of Apple's distribution network for the past 30 years

    I read that, blinked, checked my calendar, and sho' nuff, it hasn't been 30 years. It's hard to take gratuitous embellishment seriously.
  • by sakusha ( 441986 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @04:07PM (#9499681)
    I used to work at the largest apple dealer in the US, back in the 1980s. We took sales seriously, but this was before the computer market got commoditized, we could afford to have professional computer experts as sales reps. I don't know if that's possible today.
    But when I deal with independent computer stores today, I am appalled. I was just helping a friend via email on buying a new iBook, he had an old iBook and wanted an upgrade. He went to a local independent dealer, they quoted him the same prices on the iBook as the Apple Store, but gouged him for upgrades. Like $250 for a 256Mb RAM stick plus $110 to install. They're insane, even an Apple Store RAM upgrade in a Build To Order machine doesn't cost that much, and BTO prices are a bit on the high side.
    When I worked in computer sales, we used to call accessory sales "point builders" because you could sell a CPU cheap but build up the profit percentage (points) with accessories. But this independent dealer was way out of line.
    In today's market, dealers are expected to make profits with service beyond the sale, but that's not going to happen with customers who buy overpriced accessories. They're eventually going to learn the true value of what they bought, realize they got a raw deal, and they're not going to be inclined to go back. Don't people know the most basic sales lessons? Your best customers are your previous customers. Keep them happy and they come back and bring their friends.
  • by dukerobillard ( 582741 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @04:12PM (#9499751)
    Since there are so many posts about how horrible 3rd party Apple dealers are, I just thought I'd mention that I had a really good experience with Tekserve, [tekserve.com] an Apple shop in New York City. I bought their last lcloseout TiBook last January, and they were very savy and easy to deal with.
  • by tyrione ( 134248 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @08:56PM (#9502380) Homepage

    A non-anonymous memo to all Apple Retailers.

    Get off your fucking asses and invest in advertising campaigns to help sell your business. Apple wants to be more than a niche player who mostly caters to an ecclectic audience.

    As Apple enters the Enterprise Markets what better way to demonstrate, regionally, the power of such Enterprise Services, than to be able to augment existing Apple Sales Points and bring in new potential businesses.

    Waiting and coordinating with hundreds of independent resellers to do this is a complete waste of time.

    Personally, I'd be leveraging the fact that Apple has a local presence near my business, advertise that you are an Apple Certified Reseller and coordinate with Apple to help push inventories.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:48PM (#9503373)
    For the record, I'm an apple tech. Desktop and portable. I've been doing this job for years, and I've ALWAYS worked for apple specialists. And, I'm somewhat on the fence regarding all of this.

    Having worked for specialists, I've learned more about the mac, and this niche market than I ever thought I would. Back before the Apple Retail Stores, there were the catalogers, and the independent dealers. Within the dealers, there were resellers, and specialists. Resellers were places like CompUSA, etc who sold macs, along with everything else on the planet. Then, there were the specialists. The SP's were all mac. It was their bread and butter, their primary focus. They took care of it all. And today, despite the retail stores, we still do.

    As an Apple Specialist, we're required to perform in and out of warranty service, staff certified technicians and a technical coordinator, perform in and out of warranty service, and we participate in Apple's Direct Dispatch program. All of the people I work with have been doing this as long as I have and longer. My owner can quote old beige system specs from memory, and can fix the antiquated dinosaurs that show up from time to time, with no problems. Me and my other techs can play "Name That Screw" which consists of picking up a screw from a machine, and being able to name not only every machine it goes into, but how many of that screw there are. (yes, we're huge nerds) My guys can go out on apple dispatches and repair machines onsite, and even correct the Apple support people when they send the wrong parts. My sales guys know what works, what doesnt, and how it all goes together. Similarly, we run our stores on nothing but mac's. Our point of sale stuff is mac based, along with our databases, and the like.

    The problem however is cashflow, and it isnt all related to the Apple retail stores. Its a hard time to be a small dealer in the computer industry in general. Profit margins are very, and I mean very low. hypothetically figure that we buy an epson printer from ingram micro or tech data (the wholesale channels for retailers) and we spend $70. then, we have it shipped to our store. thats another $15. we're at $80. Epson is selling them for $79, and CompUSA bought a pallete of 1000 of them and is selling them with a $30 mail in rebate. Epson makes pure profit, Compusa gets a bulk discount, and we break even. Dont think there's much margin in machine sales either. There isnt. Apple is selling volume. Thats where their money is. The specialist culture grew up around selling the machines they love, fixing them, and offering the high end support that goes with them. All our money is made in services and third party items we make some margin off of. So, no matter what computer hardware your selling in a small shop, it's not easy.

    As far as the Apple retail stores go, I find them very pretty, and they have a lot of stuff. And I commend that. It brings brand awareness to the platform. However...They tend to have a very high turn over of employees from what I can see thanks to the tysons corner and clarendon stores. Their sales people have a functional sales knowledge, but if you get over their heads, they automatically send you to the geniuses. The geniuses get two weeks training before they're put to work. Wow, thats a lot of training. I've spent ten years developing my skills. Unfortunately, I've also encountered times when the geniuses were backed up 6 deep with people waiting to be helped. I've also encountered instances where Apple told customers that they couldnt and wouldnt fix their machines, and that they should buy a new one. Yet, when they brought it to me, It took me about an hour, with a part I had in stock, to repair their our of warranty G4 Tower. (digital Audio machine)

    I see things from both sides as I'm a consumer and I'm an employee of a Specialist. I love the Mac. Its the only computer I own. Thanks to the mac, I have a career, and a job I love. I could go corporate, and I could go apple. But corporate means wearing a tie, and Apple offer
    • Aww man... Why did you have to post as anon? I want you to see if you can fix my 128k Mac and potentially find me a 601 upgrade for my Quadra 605. :/

      All that talk about being better sellers and you didn't even leave your contact information. Shame :P
  • The Big Squeeze (Score:2, Insightful)

    by wchin ( 6284 )
    If resellers think that they can survive on a diet of iMac/eMac sales margins, overpriced memory upgrades and cables, then they'll die. Evolution. There's not enough margin in that kind of business unless you're freaking huge - and even then, CompUSA, Best Buy, and Circuit City all live on a razor's edge. The inventory management as well as investement necessary to have constant attempts to attract shoppers makes it difficult for a small independent to make money on low end consumers. PC shops usually only
  • I've worked for an Apple Specialist before, interviewed at another, and shopped at over half a dozen, so I've seen things from their perspective... yeah, there are occasionally little hassles with Apple.. but the local Apple rep responsible for our area worked his butt off to be a good liaison and make sure things went well.

    I hate to repeat what everyone else on here has said, so I will just agree that most of the high rated posts in this thread are absolutely correct -- there are some excellent reseller
  • HTML tags a plenty (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) * on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @03:07AM (#9504443)
    The Mac platform is in a very strong position right now. It's taken several years but finally the Mac is a strong platform with lots of third party support and momentum in the computer market. Seven years ago people weren't even sure Apple would be around to honor three year AppleCare warranties; today people are building supercompuers with Apple logos. The Mac is making a comeback in niche markets it largely lost to Windows-based workstations in the late 90s. It's also entering the Enterprise market and making a big impression in the big iron Unix world.

    What VARs and Apple Specialists need to do is turn themselves into support services for these markets. They can continue to sell Apple's hardware but they need to start focussing on the words in their titles. Selling a school some eMacs is one thing. Selling them some eMacs and setting them up a central directory, file, and mail server with a hardware support contract is something else entirely. These sorts of services they can bill by the hour and guarantee with contracts.

    Many companies only stick with Windows PCs because they don't think there's anything else in the world that can possibly work. Part of the job of the Apple retail stores is to provide a place where people can come see their products in action. VARs and SPs should go a step beyond that and really show businesses that they could save money or make more money by switching away from Windows.
    • An Apple Reseller cannot "sell some eMacs to a school". All educational sales go direct to Apple.

      Any scrupulous Apple Reseller will kick the sale if it is shipped to a school address or once they discover it's a school, because there contract says Apple has exclusive access to schools. Even The Apple Store will refer you to Apple Education Sales.
  • I'm in the same boat here... I have two local reseller mac stores that are WAY too overpriced, and inside they both only have a front-area with a single desk that no one sits at, and a larger room in the back with a bunch of macs that I used about 5-6 years ago. They're a complete mess, have no prices anywhere for anything, no catalog, no displays, just ask some weird-looking guy, or his wife (or... whatever she is) whom you can ask how much something is, then they make a few calls to "someone" and tell you how much it is... which is always at least 4 times more than I can get it elsewhere. When I can get something cheaper at a CompUSA than a mac reseller... that is sad...

    I think Apple and Jobs realized that macs were never really selling that well because their only business was repeat business. It was a niche/cult kinda thing, always was. With the move to these VERY awesome storefronts, they are showing off their cool, neat, innovative technologies to the public, attracting all kinds of new customers... and as you can tell, it's working! I praise Apple for their awesome innovations in design and technology, and hope to see some of these third party resellers step it up. I've seen a few good ones up in Silicon Valley, good mac area up there!

    Ahhh well... maybe my opinions are biased, but come on now... just look at the Airport Express! There are NO devices on the market like it, so small, so cute, so feature-rich, so... awesome. I'm buying 3 of 'em myself! And for once... I think Apple priced it pretty damn well. Anyway... Viva la Apple! =P

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @11:19AM (#9508311)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I think apple needs to be careful in how they handle resellers.
    To be specific though, if they somehow manage to piss off Small Dog electronics [smalldog.com] and they stop selling apples, I doubt I will buy any more macs.

  • We don't have AppleStores here in Australia (except the online Store). We only have AppleCentres and Second Hand Dealers.
    The three AppleCentres I've been to (one a 30min Walk, one a 30min Drive, and the third and Hour Away) are all clean showrooms.

    The guys in Berwick Village [macman.com.au] (closest to me) know me by name, and although they don't have everything in stock all the time, can provide me with a well-priced solution in no time. They also provide Internet Services and Database Design. They also do in-house Repai

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