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OS X Businesses Operating Systems Apple

PC Mag Gives Panther 5-Star Rating 206

Posted by pudge from the but-it-runs-really-slow-on-a-pentium dept.
Cycline3 writes "The subject says it all. PC Mag gave the big black cat a five-out-of-five star rating. I really like Panther, but I never would have imagined that this would happen. Pretty cool. PC users take note!"
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PC Mag Gives Panther 5-Star Rating More

PC Mag Gives Panther 5-Star Rating

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  • you never? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rritterson ( 588983 ) * on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @12:29AM (#7393748)
    The poster must not be a big reader of pc mag.

    PC Mag has been giving good reviews to apple products for a long time. Here is a link [pcmag.com] to a review of 10.1 (4/5 stars).

    I also don't understand the surprise. What would a PC user find wrong with a mac? It's similar enough to windows to be usuable. I don't use apples because I don't like the lack of 3rd party hardware and the more limited upgradability. There is nothing wrong with the OS.

    • Re:you never? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Bastian ( 66383 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @12:42AM (#7393808)
      A lot of PC users I have worked with are extremely resistant to using Mac OS machines. It's better with OS X than it is with OS 9 and earlier, but most of the average users I know are threatened by things like the lack of a Start menu and a Windows-style taskbar. Once I've shown them the ropes and explained all the Mac OS equivalents, they get a lot more comfortable.

      Regardless, I've noticed that the defining feature of a great number of computer users is that they freeze up in the face of anything new or different. I imagine it's the same mechanism that gave rise to those interesting statistics about how Windows 3.1 users learned Windows 95 more slowly than people who were just learning to use a computer.

      So all in all, I gotta say that there is one huge glaring thing that a lot of PC users find wrong with Macs: they aren't PCs.
      • So all in all, I gotta say that there is one huge glaring thing that a lot of PC users find wrong with Macs: they aren't PCs

        Why do you blame this on just PC users? The reverse is also true. Plenty of Mac users don't like Windows because Windows lacks some nifty Mac features.

        • Plenty of Mac users don't like Windows because Windows lacks some nifty Mac features.

          Yeah, like style, ease of use, consistent user interfaces, great included applications, impressive system stability, lack of viruses, good security, beautiful and functional hardware...

          :-)

          Honestly though, use whatever you want but be sure to try everything with an open mind. I will totally admit that Windows has come a long way with Windows XP and in some ways it is better than Mac OS X. Obviously a lot of people a

      • What the hell are PCs? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by cheezus ( 95036 )
        It's obviously moved away from "personal computer". I just generally assume an Intel compatable computer running Microsoft Windows (some might argue that linux runs on a PC... more confusing).

        Why are we letting "personal computer" become synonymous with Windows? That's certainly not good for competitors. Why does Apple say the iPod is available for Mac and PC when they really mean Mac, Windows, and anything else you can hack to work with it.

        • It's a historical accident. When the IBM PC came out, everyone just started using "PC" to mean "IBM PC." (In fact, didn't IBM try to trademark the name?) When the clones hit, "IBM-compatible" faded fairly quickly, to be replaced by "PC-compatible" or just "PC" -- which of course meant a machine with an Intel (or compatible) processor running MS-DOS. This usage has survived into the Windows era. I don't like it either, but I suspect it's too late to do anything about it.

          Microsoft, of course, has proven
          • I don't like it either, but I suspect it's too late to do anything about it.

            Yeah, I mean, I'm typing on a mac in Canada, and I really wish I could say the truthfull "I'm typing on a PC in America" without being misunderstood, but alas, evil prevails and words get twisted.
        • Apple actually has a "Mac" version of the iPod and a "Windows" version of the iPod. Nowhere does it state that it is a "PC" version. The specs say that it requires a PC running Windows.

          Although, with the latest generation of iPods [dockable], I don't even think they make the distinction between W vs. M.

          Just a clarification

      • Re:you never? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Frequency Domain ( 601421 )
        ...the defining feature of a great number of computer users is that they freeze up in the face of anything new or different.
        It's the baby duck syndrome. The first thing you are exposed to is mama, and everything else is a predator trying to eat you.

    • Re:you never? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by trouser ( 149900 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @12:46AM (#7393833) Journal
      Lack of 3rd party hardware?

      I'm curious to know what hardware you're talking about? These days anything I'd buy to plug into my PC I seem to be able to plug into my Mac as well and the Mac generally does a better job of recognising and talking to the crap I plug into it.

      I'm talking about stuff like printers, cameras, scanners, etc.
      • But what if I wanna buy the latest snazzy graphics card so I can play all the cool new video games that aren't ever going to be ported to the Mac anyways so I'm not sure why I'm even talking.

        Seriously, while exterior peripheral support is great on Macs, the support for a lot of internal hardware (really mostly just PCI and AGP cards) is lacking.

        But I can't remember the last time I needed to stick a new PCI card in my PC, let alone my Mac.

        • Re:you never? (Score:3, Funny)

          by Lars T. ( 470328 )
          Sure, you can buy graphics cards for the PC that you can't buy for the Mac - yet. Not that most of the hyped features are actually used even by the latest games - and infact won't be until the card is an old hat on the Mac. Nor can you buy Daikatana for the Mac, nor Winmodems, nor a cheap Soundblaster16 compatible card. I feel so left out.

      • Re:you never? (Score:3, Informative)

        by rritterson ( 588983 ) *
        Sorry- I should have been more specific. I meant third-party cases and motherboards, and the like

        • Re:you never? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by edalytical ( 671270 )

          I meant third-party cases and motherboards

          Why what's wrong with Mac cases? My G4 case, as you know, has a fold down side making upgrades and repairs that mush easier. It also has a place for a pad lock, to keep your ram safe from a would be thief, plus it has an area to attach a cable that will lock the entire computer to something. And don't forget the ever helpful handles. I just wish the G5 case also folded down, oh well, it looks like it's still easy to get inside of.

          Maybe I'm being ignorant, but

          • Re:you never? (Score:2, Funny)

            by torpor ( 458 )
            What would you gain from using a different logic board?

            Just ignore him. All PC users feel the need to replace bits of their computer that they're not happy with.

            • Re:you never? (Score:2, Funny)

              by Anonymous Coward
              Whereas all Mac users, on the other hand, are happy with their computers as they are. The lesson? If you do it right from the start, there won't be any need to dick around with it later.
          • what's wrong with Mac cases?

            I love the design of the G4 cases, but there is one thing that really sucks big time: they are noisy. My MDD case vibrates so much it causes a clearly audible hum. When I press the door firmly against the case, the hum stops. A different case would be a nice thing now...

          • Why what's wrong with Mac cases?

            The hard disk bracket is connected with one very small low-profile philips screw in an awkwardly-placed recessed counter-sunk hole. I've stripped a number of these screws. I've taken to moving the hard disk from the bottom position in the bracket to the top position so the screw could be replaced with a standard screw with a deeper head.

            Past that, I have no complaints about the b/w G3, G4, or quicksilver cases and I've worked on a lot of them.

            Now, I can rant on

      • Re:you never? (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        How about webcams? It seems Logitech and Orange Micro are the only ones that support theirs on the Mac.
      • I'm curious to know what hardware you're talking about?

        Not that I'm the original complainer, but...

        It ticks me off that I can't plug in any video card I want.

        How about sound cards - I dunno.

        How about any cards?

        There are plenty of USB devices that won't work (radio receivers and the like).

        • Re:you never? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by proj_2501 ( 78149 )
          i think PCI sound boards will become a thing of the past.

          the future is USB audio/MIDI interfaces for those who don't need ridiculously low latency and FireWire audio/MIDI interfaces for those that do. even digidesign makes outboard pro tools systems
    • I would be happy to use OS X on intel / AMD based hardware. In many ways I like it more than Windows XP.

      What I don't like is the fact that Apple is the sole manufacturer of the hardware required to run the OS. Monopolies tend to create weird pricing and reduce innovation. It still seems to be a fact that Apple hardware price/performance ratio is poor compared to intel/amd-based hardware (but let's not go deeper into that dark alley again).
      • What I don't like is the fact that Apple is the sole manufacturer of the hardware required to run the OS. Monopolies tend to create weird pricing and reduce innovation.

        Well, I'll concede that Apple's pricing is unappealing, but you must be thinking of some other company (*cough*Microsoft*cough*) when you mention "reduce[d] innovation". I think that even the most strident Apple-hater would agree that Apple's is innovative.

        D.
        • I was more thinking of the internal production / supply chain / distribution process innovation that influence the manufacturing cost of the hardware.

          I find it hard to believe that Apple has putting as much effort into that as e.g. Dell or other PC-manufacturers that face fierce competition.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • I'd say that depends on whether those monopolies have competition.

          Ever own a dictionary? They're easy to use, handy to have around, and relatively cheap. When used judiciously, can help prevent foot-in-mouth disease.

        • Apple is the odd one out, and Apple does seem, for the most part, to be the one company left that's innovating, or even inventing.

          Apple does more than their fair share, but I our test labs see more 'new' concepts from the MS R&D labs than Apple. Whether you like MS or not, they are putting Billions in research.

          Since the NT initiative (which was a non-user side of OS engineering and architecture originally 'the guts of a new OS') to the OS/2 interface that IBM put in OS/2 2.0, and on to the Windows
  • I think Expose alone is worth the $70 I paid for it.

    • Expose is worth gold... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I am seriously thinking that there is no better os invention than Expose. NONE - not even the stinking BSD kernel... expose makes my life complete. DONE. D O N E
      • This is on no way a troll but what exactly is expose. I have not used Mac os X, i use a gnome desktop. If I understand it correctly expose is a way to fix window clutter. On my Gnome desktop I don't have windows clutter. I don't move my windows around much. Every major program I use have its own workspace.

        Isn't expose just a way to solve something which other UIs like Gnome doesn't have (window clutter)?

        Or if I have understand it incorrectly please explain to me what it does.
        • That's because Gnome, KDE and Windows GUIs are single-task environments. They force you in to doing one thing at a time, and thinking about one thing at a time. That's why most people run their apps full screen.

          The OS X is a multi-taks GUI environment. It lends itself to users doing many things at the same time, and keeping track of those many things.

          Expose simply takes that paradigm a step farther. It does much more than manage window clutter. It allows you to be more effective at multitasking with your
          • They force you in to doing one thing at a time

            I don't know what KDE and Windows you've been using, but it's not the same ones I've been over the past few years. (Sorry, I never really used Gnome).

            Seriously, how do the force you into doing one thing at a time? I can't alt-tab through running apps? I can't have 14 things running on my XP workstation next to me?

            Hogwash.

            It lends itself to users doing many things

            Certainly, it lends itself far better w/ Expose then it did with earlier versions.

            Wouldn't
            • Force was a bad word choice. Encourage is a better one. Each Window in Windows, Gnome, KDE, etc. takes over your whole environment. The menu bar is contained within it, other windows for the application are contained within it, etc. This makes your whole focus and attention go to that one task.

              The very idea of using a key to alt-tab through running apps is an example of this. You make a discreet change from one single-task to another.

              The Mac user doesn't use the alt-tab as much, because his windows are fr
        • You can see Expose in action [apple.com] here. All of the screenshots are links to a QuickTime movie of Expose working. Take a look if you can find a machine running QuickTime.

        • This is on no way a troll but what exactly is expose. I have not used Mac os X, i use a gnome desktop. If I understand it correctly expose is a way to fix window clutter.

          It doesn't solve or even address window clutter. It solves finding the window you want.

          For example when I code I normally use two terminal windows, one on the left for the code, one on the right to run the program in the debugger, look at the output, or even bring up man pages. Expose doesn't get in the way of that, it still lets me

    • The new interface functions are really just icing on the cake (not that icing is unwelcome). Panther fixes a number of restrictions facing developers and offers some new widgets. For example, 10.3 allows custom cursors larger than 16 x 16 pixels. There is a new rotary slider control, a new webview, and so on.

      These are features in Panther that will only become apparent as developers release products that use them. By buying Panther you're getting more than is immediately apparent.
    • Yup. I never could get on with virtual desktops, but now with expos I get the benefits without the hassle.

  • Wow. (Score:4, Funny)

    by Sevn ( 12012 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @12:46AM (#7393834) Homepage Journal
    Malcolm X would be so proud that Panther is doing so well.
    • You mean Malcolm OS X?
    • FWIW, I know you're making a joke, and appreciate that at least some people are capable of recognizing the iconography Apple has appropriated for the marketing of OS X v10.3.

      That said: Malcolm X had nothing to do directly with the Panthers. Malcolm was assassinated in February of '65 and the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense was formed in Oakland in '66, in response to police violence and repression against blacks in the community. The Panthers drew a large amount of inspiration from Malcolm's example,
      • I would hazard that he might view Apple's decision to market their "Panther" product via the use of an all-black box and the "X" symbol as an example of whites exploiting African American cultural symbols for their own ends (and profits).

        Uh, right - on the other hand, given that he was a fairly smart guy, he may well have realised that the "X" stands for ten, the Panther is because all the Mac OS X releases are named after big cats, and the box is black for the same reason the Jaguar box had faux-Jaguar

  • 5 stars? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by saden1 ( 581102 )
    5 stars despite many know problems/issues? Something smells fishy to me.

    Journalistic integrity requires that you never give a product with know issues 5 stars.

  • You mean Panther runs on PCs?!? (Score:4, Funny)

    by PasteEater ( 590893 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @12:59AM (#7393872)
    Wow! It's about time. How long have we been waiting for this!

    I'm going to be really pissed if it doesn't run on my 233 MHz Pentium II though. And does it *really* need 128 megs of RAM? Can't I skate by on 64? And $129? It should be free to anyone who bought a computer in the past three years.

    That's just my small percentage of an opinion.

  • Moving beyond Expose, let's talk about Preview... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by King Babar ( 19862 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @01:22AM (#7393960) Homepage

    As expected, the reviewer points out that Expose is really, really cool. More interestingly to me, he also points out that Preview is much improved as well. I used to think it sucked, but now I've made it my default PDF viewer.

    The most exciting thing about Preview, though, is that it's easy to predict that its beautiful new "Find" function will make its way into things like Safari. Seriously, "Find" is so good that it has pretty much changed the way I rifle through the dozens of PDFs of journal articles I have on my disk. Like, I can actually find what I'm looking for. :-)

    • I'm *really* hoping that they figure out a way to integrate Preview's PDF-rendering abilities into Safari, so that we can finally have a decent plugin to view PDF's inside the browser on OS X! (I know, there's a couple shareware plugins out there, but those never worked well enough for me.)

      • I'm *really* hoping that they figure out a way to integrate Preview's PDF-rendering abilities into Safari, so that we can finally have a decent plugin to view PDF's inside the browser on OS X!

        And I'm really hoping that if they do, they also offer a way to tell Safari not to render PDFs inside the browser - I went through some effort to keep the Acrobat Reader plugin from working on Windows, because, for many PDFs, if it's big enough for me to read, it's too big to fit in a browser window and show the entir

        • I hate the whole "open in browser window" thing. I would much rather have the browser download the file and pass it off to another application with its own GUI.
          • I agree. However the down side of doing this is I end up with a folder full of PDFs with cryptic names, most of which I'll never look at again. I just wish the file didn't get saved unless I told the viewing app to save it.

          • I hate the whole "open in browser window" thing. I would much rather have the browser download the file and pass it off to another application with its own GUI.

            You probably don't hate it as much as you say you do. Do you want your browser to display plain text externally? How about gzipped HTML files? I'm guessing you'd want these displayed by the browser.

            I think what is more important is how well the interaction model for the particular document type fits with the browser's. PDFs are jarring becaus

        • An OS X PDF renderer in Safari would be better than the Acrobat plug-in. Cocoa uses PDF natively, in NSPDFImageReps. You can render PDF as easily as you can render JPEG (ie: very easily).

          Not that this would interpret the PDF streams inside the document; that would be less trivial.

          • An OS X PDF renderer in Safari would be better than the Acrobat plug-in.

            In some ways, yes. At least for me, however, it'd be worse than just showing the document in Preview - and, in the area about which I complained, namely the space taken up by the browser and PDF view toolbars not being available to show me the page I'm viewing, no better than the Acrobat plugin. (Yes, I know Cocoa uses PDF natively. That's presumably how Preview displays it.)

        • I HATE the Acrobat Reader plugin. It is painfully slow for Mozilla, and the Stop button doesn't work. Many is the time I have mistakenly clicked on a pdf link and wasted minutes waiting for the damn thing to render.

    • Re:Moving beyond Expose, let's talk about Preview. (Score:4, Informative)

      by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @09:41AM (#7396050) Journal
      I disagree. The find function is nice, but from the most exciting thing about Preview is that it now knows about bookmarks in PDFs, making it very easy to navigate large PDFs quickly. I write a lot using LaTeX (TeXShop is a very nice app for this, by the way) , and regularly deal with documents in the tens or hundreds of pages range. Being able to jump to a specific section quickly makes my life a lot easier. I've always been able to do this with Acrobat Reader, but now I can do so from preview.

      • I disagree. The find function is nice, but the most exciting thing about Preview is that it now knows about bookmarks in PDFs, making it very easy to navigate large PDFs quickly.

        You're obviously some kind of pathetic geek. :-) More seriously, that *is* very nice, but I should point out that some of the TeX documents I tried playing with turned out to be unsearchable by Safari; is this possibly caused by the fact that they were created in an odd fashion (didn't use pdflatex or something?). Is there s

        • You're obviously some kind of pathetic geek.

          Probably...

          Is there something special you should do with your LaTeX to make sure it "plays nice" with more advanced PDF readers?

          If your problem is with plain text searches, then make sure you have ligatures (where pairs of letters like fl are run together in a single character) turned off. If you are just not getting the table of contents in the bookmarks window, then the most likely cause is that you haven't used the hyperref package, which creates these

  • My Experience... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blackmonday ( 607916 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @01:23AM (#7393963) Homepage
    I've been using Panther for a little less than a week and it's been bliss. Seriously, neither Windows XP or any Linux distro I've ever tried can touch Panther in terms of usability. It's very slick and polished, and blows even Jaguar away with lots of refinements in networking, the aqua GUI, and expose, the feature most likelt to be copied my MS when longhorn comes out.

    The complainers will be the loudest of the bunch, and yes there are a few kinks. But note the firewire problem was an issue with the hardware chipset, not apple's programming. Obviously people like me, the happy ones are not going to get the headlines.

  • Written before the big problems surfaced? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Zhe Mappel ( 607548 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @02:29AM (#7394177)
    Magazines have lead times, so it wouldn't be unusual for PC Mag to have evaluated Panther before the lethal firewire and File Vault munching issues became apparent. Perhaps tellingly, the review has such a generic feel that it's not even apparent that PC Mag tried Panther; the piece reads like a regurgitated press release.

    Minus two glaring faults that affect only certain users, Panther looks very good. And Apple will resolve the problems, albeit tardily. But the bottom line is: when you're costing people data loss, do you deserve a 100% rating.

  • reviews... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @02:32AM (#7394185)
    ...and CNET gave it a 6.8 out of 10. (here) [cnet.com] Like most things in life, reviews are all about what you're looking for and what things are important to you. Read as many as possible.

    As for my review... I can't imagine life without it... using Preview this past weekend must have saved me and my fiancee a few hours searching through loads of PDF annual reports. -Rob

  • Am I Missing Something? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by otterpop378 ( 254386 ) on Wednesday November 05, 2003 @03:05AM (#7394273)
    Maybe we've all got ourselves wrapped up in our jargon, but last I checked PC stood for Personal Computer, not "windows-based-personal-computer". Macintosh may be a different platform, but still is a personal computer. Just because we have a cult, doesnt make it something entirely different.
    --
    However, something somewhat unrelated... I installed Panther on my mac at work on friday, and my co-worker approached me, and was watching the progress and he said "so when do you put in the serial #?" and i said "No serial #". And he looked at me funny, and said "How do they know you aren't giving copies to your friends?" So the only response I could get out was "i guess when the users of a product don't hate the company that makes it, the honor system works."

    • Macintosh may be a different platform, but still is a personal computer.

      ...or you could just use the language in the way it's defined, by a de facto standard, the way all natural languages are defined. And you could admit that it was "hackers" who defaced your website while you were eating some tasty "crackers" with cheese.
      No one seemed confused at the presidential debate last night when the "Mac or PC" question was asked, insisting that a Mac was a PC too. So yeah, I'd say you're the one missing some

    • That's because Apple is a hardware company. The only people that can steal their software are the same people who already bought the hardware. And Apple made money from those people already, and will make more money from them the next time they buy a hardware upgrade.

      If Apple were to get draconion with product registration, people would be inclined to find a more convenient computing platform, and that would deprive Apple of hardware sales.

      As it is, the costs for OS updates are simply a way to keep the
  • If they gave Windows ME 4 and a half stars, then this is the minimum they could give to Panther.

    If they gave Windows 2000 Professional 1 star, then 5 for Panther is a an absurdly high rating.

    If their ratings are based on this being $129 for an upgrade from 10.$lastversion it's a quite high rating.

    If their ratings are based on this being $129 for an upgrade from 9.2.2 it's reasonable.

    On it's own, it's fairly meaningless.
  • For me it's a 4 out of 5 rating. The single star got lost as I did an update on a 14" iBook2 G3 600Mhz with Mac OS X v10.2.8 on it. After the update, Aqua froze on me. The only way to get rid of it was hitting Command-Option-Esc key-combination, and let Finder do a restart.

    But after that, things went smooth. My iBook feels like reborn again !

    • hmm, so for each freeze it loses a star....

      man, if you'd reviewed Windows98 it'd have been a -78 stars.

    • Never ever update between version numbers. Back off your data and do a complete reinstall. Or, failing that do an archive and install. I've already had to fix several of my clients' machines when they did an update install of Panther that started screwing things up.
  • I have long hated Macs but as of yesterday, I now own a 15" alum Powerbook.

    I absolutely love this thing and while I still am an admin on a Windows network here at work, I think I am done with Windows on my own.
    I have increasing problems with Windows and having increasingly fewer reasons to hate Macs.
    As of OS X 10.3 and Xcode, I now have very few reasons to dislike it.

    The only few gripes that I have right now are:
    1) The aluminum keyboard feels like dragging my nails on a chalkboard if my nails (esp thumb)
    • 6) I have yet to figure out where the graphical FTP client is

      If you click on a URL that leads to an FTP site, Panther opens a new Finder window with the FTP site mounted like a network drive.

      You can also cause this to occur by using Command-K in the Finder and entering the FTP URL in the resulting dialog.

    • 2) The integrated Google search doesn't have buttons that let me search directly to images and/or discussions, and when the search comes up, there aren't buttons of the words that I just searched for allowing me to search within that document.

      I don't know if this answers your question, but if you cmd+F, (or choose Find... from the menu), the words you searched for Google is in the Find dialogue. It can be annoying because those words show up in other Cocoa apps' Find dialogues, but can be useful.

      As a wo
    • Welcome to the mac-world! You will enjoy it :)

      The only few gripes that I have right now are: 1) The aluminum keyboard feels like dragging my nails on a chalkboard if my nails (esp thumb) hit the hey instead of flesh.

      Cut your nails ;) I have long nails and so does my girlfriend. We have not had this kind of trouble on our PowerBook 17".

      2) The integrated Google search doesn't have buttons that let me search directly to images and/or discussions, and when the search comes up, there aren't buttons of the

    • 6) I have yet to figure out where the graphical FTP client is

      In Finder, Go -> Connect to Server, type in ftp://some.site.tld/path

      Read-only, which is probably a good thing since password is sent clear-text.

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