Apple G4 Power Supply Woes? 152
Predius asks: "I, like many others based on forum hopping, have an Apple G4 desktop that has decided it no longer wishes to power up. I've replaced PRAM batteries, verified power supply voltages, pressed the CUDA switch, and done combinations of the above. Trying to start it just results in a blip of the powersupply fan and the power led on the motherboard flashes once. Every now and then it will actually boot, and when it does it's 100% rock solid, will reboot fine, etc. If I power it off, I get to play games again trying to power it up. Does anyone know how to manually start an Apple Gigabyte or later rev power supply? Standard ATX power supplies can be fired up by shorting the green PWR ON lead to ground, but Apple decided to be different. I await the collective's wisdom."
Blinkerfluid (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Blinkerfluid (Score:1)
You have to upgrade to a G5.
Humidity (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Humidity (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Humidity (Score:2)
Or it could be this:
An experience I had recently with my mom's G4 is the display was going dim near the bottom (17" Apple Flat Panel, ADC-style). Remembering the enormous contacts on the video card (to deliver power to the monitor), I thought maybe some oxidization created some resistance, thereby cutting the a
Inrush current (Score:5, Informative)
Check your battery. No joke. (Score:1)
-David
Re:Check your battery. No joke. (Score:2)
Re:Check your battery. No joke. (Score:1)
Ah well, it's a new day tomorrow.
-David
corrupt PMU? (Score:5, Informative)
Pop that sucker open (unplug first!) and there should be a little black button on the lower front of the logic board. "Reset pmu" will be printed on the board somewhere near the button. Push it for one second and only press it once. Let the box sit for roughly 5 minutes unplugged and then turn it on.
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:2)
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:2, Informative)
only 1 second? (Score:2)
i know some older motherboards required you to hold the motherboard reset button for about 30 seconds if you ever pull the PRam battery out.
back to your first issue of manually jumpstarting a powersupply, dunno. sorry. just figured iw ould mention the motherboard reset button because i know somebody that got a lot of stress from not knowing that.
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:3, Insightful)
That sounds like the procedure we used to do on the old pre-blue-n-white PPC macs. Is this 'PMU' button another name for the CUDA button? I haven't seen a mac motherboard in a while. Even the most knowledgable [bothell.edu]
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:2)
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:2)
ObSlashdot: I, for one, welcome our new CUDA leaders.
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:1)
CUDA and PMU are effectively the same for end users. Certainly CUDA was the code name for the chipset responsible for your Mac's power management in eariler PowerMacs. Since then the PMU term has come into use. A new chipset? Certainly grown more functional since those first releases.
The button resets a set of values the PMU chipset contains or at least manages; including auto start-up and shut down times.
We use its functionality in DssW Power Manager [dssw.co.uk].
DayStar have a TechNote regarding reseting CUDA on
CUDA (Score:1)
And i know you said that you verified the incoming voltage, so my only other trouble shooting suggestion would be to try it at a friend's house or at work.
I would be frustrated as hell if that happened to me. Almost as pissed off as I am about my Win2K notebook being unable to boot (hive file) after running a windows update. Just another reason why I love my G4 & jagwi
Re:corrupt PMU? (Score:3, Informative)
Also, it sounds like this guy may have a well known problem with his power switch. The small PC board behind the powerswitch in some G4 towers was defective and needs replacement. Its covered under warranty from apple.
Hmmm, maybe... (Score:1, Flamebait)
I mean, I guess that works for the editors, since you post made it up, but I don't think that this is such a common problem that it needs to be here for everyone to try to help with.
But since we're here, could anyone tell me why my Check Engine Light keeps coming on in my car? Also, t
Re:Hmmm, maybe... (Score:1)
two words for you: shoe goo!
Re:Hmmm, maybe... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Hmmm, maybe... (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm, maybe... (Score:2)
this is slashdot so we do like to hear about exotic woes such as this... and we do have old shit puters around as well. and being geeks we enjoy reading problems like this and reading other peoples answers to them, otherwise you could just stick to your local newspaper for source of info.
take it in to be fixed? yeah, that's real good advice, obviously if he
Re:Hmmm, maybe... (Score:2)
Aggravating problem (Score:5, Informative)
Especially if you are out of warranty. Apple describes it in support article 95039 [apple.com]. The most frustrating part is that replacing the power supply is the last step -- they try to replace the CPU before checking the power supply. This means that you have to commit to purchasing a CPU if it is the problem child. My CPU (500Mhz G4) was ~USD900 last time I checked -- more than the value of the the computer at the time. All this is after you pay their diagnostic fee.
Don't get me wrong, Apple Care is wonderful, but once it expires you can be in for some expensive repairs...
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2)
On the other hand, Apple suggests that you replace a significantly more expensive part BEFORE replacing a relatively less expensive part. That's not a cost-effective way of fixing the problem, al
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2)
Yes, because normally when you get something repaired, you pay for two different things:
Parts
and
Labor.
In this case, the "part" a CPU, is a very expensive part indeed.
Flat rate repair in cases like this would be bad, because it would have to be very high to cover the poor shmucks who have to have their CPU repaired. So, the flat rate for fixing a computer with a power supply problem would cost $1050 if the CPU neede
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:1)
Here's a list [macsales.com] of what MacSales says will fit into a G4/500 Sawtooth Mac.
800MHz upgrades are about $250.
If the warranty is already expired, this is way better than getting the same processor again.
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:1)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:1)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:1)
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:2, Informative)
And here's a hint, if the heatsink is HOT it's WORKING.
Re:Aggravating problem (Score:1)
Obvious? (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you considered taking it in for service?
The friendly folks at the nearest Apple Store will be happy to take a look at it. If it's still under warrantee, or if you've invested in AppleCare, it won't even cost you anything.
Re:Obvious? (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft has Solitaire.. (Score:2)
Sounds like Apple's game library noticably expanded!
Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply? (Score:5, Informative)
Look, there are many ways a powersupply can fail and still appear to have the correct output voltages. For instance, the powersupply has a power good signal going to the motherboard. The PS determines whether it's within its specifications, and when it is (some mS after actual turn on) it asserts the signal, and the motherboard comes out of reset. It could be that either the powersupply is not asserting the signal correctly, or that it is still out of spec.
But it could be a dozen other problems. Until you swap it for a known good PS, you cannot know for sure that the PS is good. (other than, perhaps, putting it in another good system and powering it up there)
Here [haertle.ch] is the pinout of a dual G4 powersupply. I suspect that the pinout is substantially similar. You may be able to force the PS on, but you'd have to find and assert the power good signal (I doubt that the supply doesn't have one - chances are they made this pinout with a multimeter, and there's no easy way to find the power good without a scope or analyzer)
But I suspect that you'll spend less money and time by simply getting a new PS and replacing it.
Please note that powersupplies contain many parts that fail over time. Aside from the obvious fan, the electrolytic caps eventually dry out, causing out of spec voltages, out of spec ripple, and out of spec regulation. You won't be able to see the ripple on the average multimeter.
Also note that computer hardware troubleshooting is a black art, and should only be practised by mages trained in this specialty.
-Adam
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:3, Informative)
It's not so simple to just drop a new power supply into a Mac. The supply on the G4 Powermac is not, as far as I can tell, identical to or compatible with the standard ATX supplies that x86 machines use -- the part in question is both proprietary and expensive. Your advice would be perfectly reasonable if we were talking about an x86 box, but we aren't, and there's the rub.
I had a G4 that refused to boot, and when I brought it to Microcenter to be repaired they informed me that if it was a bad power supply
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
I also have the new (supposedly quieter) power supply for the MDDs. I haven't installed it yet because I'm afraid to add another variable to the equation.
Their advice in the shop: buy AppleCare -- we can't find it, but it'll probably be back!
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:5, Informative)
:-)
You are, of course, exactly right.
Still, it's not as bad as it used to be. As far as I can tell, the only really proprietary parts on a modern Mac are the CPU, motehrboard, the power supply, and maybe the video card. In the case of the video card, it's only "proprietary" because the systems are Open Firmware based (like Sun, SGI, and maybe some others), and the video card has to be able to talk to the rest of the system -- but it uses the same AGP bus that x86 uses, and my impression is that there's no reason that the "Mac" cards wouldn't work just fine if (say) AMD ever designed an Open Firmware based x86 platform.
Beyond that though, it's all standard hardware. Same RAM, same hard drives, same PCI bus for expansion, same peripherals on the USB & Firewire ports. And so on.
It used to be much worse than that, in the days up to the blue & white G3, with the Nubus architecture, "standard but exotic" SCSI bus for hard drives, etc. Moreover, above the hardware level, they've gotten very good about using standard protocols & formats for nearly all of the system, and have offered up their new developments to be used as open standards (e.g. Rendezvous).
While it's annoying that they can get away with charging so much for the proprietary parts that they still control, at least these parts are generally pretty reliablee & most people don't have any problems. And the rest of the system is just so much nicer than anything that could be run on x86 that I for one am willing to take a chance on what Apple has to offer, knowing that if anything does go drastically wrong, the fix can be ridiculously expensive compared to the same repair on the other site.
Everything is a tradeoff, ya know?
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
Ahem.
The Nubus architecture was not proprietary and indeed a non Apple standard.
It was developed for the Texas Instruments Nu Machine ( back in 1982 I think ) and was used in the Texas Instruments Explorer Lisp Machines.
and then the S1500 series of Unix servers introduced by TI in 1986 and sold to HP in 1992
So you see the Nubus was already an old bus by the time Apple started using it.
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:1)
I stand happily corrected :-)
Still, it was an exotic standard, if an "official" one. Give me at least that much -- in the end, Apple seems to have been the main & only vendor using it... :-)
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
Mac CPUs *can* be replaced (ZIF socket), but what with the last few years there have been very few modules sold worth upgrading *to*. And it's not as simple as just buying a part from Motorola, as the L2 backside cache is kept on the CPU module.
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
There's a now-locked thread on MacNN in the PowerMac topic about this, and I've posted a number of success stories in that thread. Basically, most OEM (ie Sapphire or PowerColor) 64M Radeon 8500s will flash, but only if they're over a certain clockspeed. I've done two, one worked perfectly in OS 9 and OSX 10.1.x, but will instantly overheat if a program does OpenGL calls (which leaves 10.2 as a no-go). The 2nd card was a bit more expensive, but has been perfect.
I
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
As to this problem, it's most likely the motherboard. I can't count how many G4 wind tunnel mobos I've replaced in the last year. The problem with the powersupplies is mostly due to them not responding to the mobos fan cycling, making the
Re:You're calling OpenFirmware propriatary? (Score:2)
No no no! See how I put "proprietary" in quotes? Do you see how I mention that other vendors also use OF? Did you catch how I mentioned that there's nothing stopping AMD from adopting OF on their platform?
I realize that OF is an open standard. Really.
It's just that OF is a de jure standard, formally codified and supported by a variety of vendors, while the x86 spec is a de facto standard, consistent only with itself but, because it happens to be the platform used by 95% or whatever of the market, is the
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:1)
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:2)
Not your motherboard so much as fry your processor. Several early motherboards that set the processor speed and core voltages in BIOS could be exploited in such a way that software on the system could also change the voltage and clock speed. Set the voltage another volt higher and the processer would be damaged.
I don't know the exact mechanism that the motherboard manufacturers are u
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:1)
Re:Why haven't you tried replacing the powersupply (Score:1)
I have a biege G3, a Lime Green Rev C iMac, a Powerbook G3 and 2 G4 Cubes. They are all connected via Ethernet, all with high speed internet. The iMac is in the living room connected to the stereo for playing my MP3 library from a firewire drive, that once connected to any machine can mount on any other machine. I also listen to streaming radio stations. It's so fun switching stations and tracks with the USB remote control! I connec
Too many hard drives? (Score:1)
If this is the case, TiVo hackers came up with a device to allow some of their units with less powerful hard drives to spin up two drives separately: the PTVupgrade SmartStart Power Supply Protector [9thtee.com].
I have not used this device myself yet in a TiVo or Mac, so I c
Re:Too many hard drives? (Score:2)
If you are seriously interested in video editing, you'll want to get external firewire drives instead of internal IDE drives. You can plug in a huge number of the external drives, many more than you can fit in the case (or on the macs IDE controller) and software RAID them together. I'm a consultant who specializes in these things, and FireWire software RAID for video da
Re:Too many hard drives? (Score:2)
This is incorrect. Firewire mass storage doesn't talk to firewire video-- completely seperate protocols. It requires CPU intervention to figure out where to write things on the disk, etc. All you'll succeed in doing this with recipe is increasing resource utilization on the firewire controller.
Re:Too many hard drives? (Score:2)
Take a miniDV camera, (or a Digi002 audio interface which also uses firewire) and check the CPU utilization and memory overhead (on a mac) w
Re:Too many hard drives? (Score:2)
Two problems:
1. It ramps up voltages. This usually isn't a good thing for digital logic - it means its going to spend some time at a marginal voltage level. Hopefully this ramp is fast.
2. It sequences the seperate power supplies without sequencing the logic. When you've got something connected but not powered, the signal lines power the chip through protection diodes - the effect is that the IDE controller is trying to power the driv
Power issue from motherboard (Score:3, Informative)
Turns out there's a known Apple TechNote on the mirrored drive door boxes that produces a power on, but unexpected results type problem. Here's the technote (iirc) or at least one similar: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=95
I HIGHLY recommend making a list of technotes that directly refer to and explain the problem in detail. Do what you can yourself. Go to an Apple store (make it a road trip if there isn't one near you - I'm in NY, US so it wasn't a problem), walk up to the "Genius Bar" and make them work for their famed support reputation. I've owned macs since sometime prior to the Quadra and when it doubt, Apple *will* save you should you ask the right way. Be nice. Beg. Your warranty is an intangible and can be extended by the manufacturer if it is a known problem and you plead your case correctly.
This is usually related to a bit more than the power supply and is absolutely a known issue.
Good luck. Chin up... and beg if you're out of warranty.
A little html goes a long way (Score:2)
It's really simple. Here's how you do it:
In your case, you might have written something like:
Which is coded this way:
The ma
Re:Power issue from motherboard (Score:1)
Dead? (Score:2)
This happens ALL THE TIME with PCs. Of course, Apple has much tighter quality control, so this happens a lot less, but does happen nonetheless (I've seen several iMacs and G4 towers with dead PSUs).
Power supplies can die due to manufacturing defects (specifically cheap electrolytic capacitors), or due to bad power. If your building has bad power (you probably don't even know it), the life of your power supply will be easily cut in half (cons
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
When companies start using power supplies with standard connectors, it greatly increases the odds that some unscrupulous service center will start cutting corners and using non-Apple parts that may or may not meet the same specs for wattage, DC quality, or audible noise, particularly for out-of-warranty repair.
This in turn could lead to surprises a few years down the road, and depending on state laws, it migh
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
Re:Dead? (Score:1)
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
There are lots of ATX power supplies that take 100-240 volts, 50/60Hz. Nearly every ATX power supply made takes 100-240 volts, and many of the newer ones don't even have the voltage selector switch.
Who uses anything lower than 100V or higher than 240V anyway?
Re:Dead? (Score:2)
Re:Dead? (Score:1)
Then why are my PCs all running fine after 2-7 years but my G4 died after 18 months?
This solved a similar problems on iMac's (Score:1)
Here's how to fix it (Score:1, Funny)
2) Hold the Grimes Conductor & the Simpsons polylead together
3)...
4) Profit!
Er...since when is /. the place to send your... (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Er...since when is /. the place to send your... (Score:2)
Am I the only one that found that one of the funniest things I've read here for a while? Or is it just my sick sense of humour?
How old is the machine? (Score:4, Informative)
There was a revision of the G4 in August, 2000. The first ones off the line had power switch problems, giving almost the same symptoms. We had them all replaced under warranty.
One work around, find an older Mac USB keyboard that has a power button on it. Plug it in and see if the machine will start then. If so, you will need to get a replacement power switch.
More info available from ZDNet [com.com].
Replacement (Score:2, Informative)
Video Card/LCD Display (Score:1)
65W Portable US power supply (dual USB iBook) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:65W Portable US power supply (G3 PB but same) (Score:2)
Easy... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Easy... (Score:1)
Sounds familiar (Score:1)
Re:Sounds familiar (Score:2)
It was indeed the power supply in my case (Score:4, Interesting)
After reading up on some G4 to PC ATX case conversions, and doing a lil guessing, I determined that the G4 power supply should use the same power up sequence as an ATX. What threw me off is earlier PC ATX power supply to mac conversions had to invert the power on signal, and I incorrectly assumed Apple did the same with the G4.
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/ATX_G4_AGP_c
And for those curious, the machine I'm building is a FrankenMac, assembled from random bits on eBay and my parts closet. I've TRIED talking to apple stores, but the instant they figure out its not a boxed apple, they tell me to pound sand. I've got $75 into the power supply, so I wanted to be ABSOLUTELY certain it was the culprit before canning it. Unfortunatly, while Apple will offer some simple diagnostic guidelines, they won't give you all you need to do this sort of work outside of an Apple authorized repair depot.
Re:It was indeed the power supply in my case (Score:1)
Ahh... key factoid that was missing from the original question. Invalidates all of the comments that advise pulling the warranty trigger.
Christ man, did you try unplugging it (Score:1)
Ignore all these other jerks. (Score:1)
Re:Ignore all these other jerks. (Score:1)
Re:Ignore all these other jerks. (Score:1)
Re:Ignore all these other jerks. (Score:1)
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/ATX_G4_AGP_c o nv ersion/G4_AGP_to_ATX_case_pg2.htm#next
That details the modifications needed to get 20 of the 22 pins correct. Apple used the same connector keying on the 22pin header as the normal 20 pin ATX header, so your connector will slot right in where it needs to. Once you have that, you need to supply 28v, which is a task I leave to you. Right now I'm using lamp cord press
Way to Research chuckles. (Score:1)
TRY GOOGLE.
Re:Way to Research chuckles. (Score:1)
New Starter? (Score:1)
Turned out I needed a new starter. I'd check the starter on that thing. May be it just needs a new solenoid.
Just had one die... (Score:1)
Couple of things to try (Score:1)
Power supply problems (Score:1)
Not CUDA but Cuda! (Score:1)
Like undoubtedly many anal retentive, abbreviation savvy others have done before me, I searched like a devil to find the meaning of what I then thought to be an acronym: CUDA. However, no such definition was to be found, and this is very rare.
On further inspection, I also found that Apple _consistently_ referred to the controller chip as Cuda, not CUDA, further strengthening someone else's theory that this is indeed a code name/nickname of some sort and not a pronounceable initialism (a.k.a. acr