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Safari Beta Leaked, With Tabs 275

ollie_ob writes "Seems a bit too good to be true: Apple listening to its community and implementing the features most requested? Apparently a build (v62) of Safari has been leaked into the wild, and has tabs -- though not fully implemented yet -- and primitive support for autocomplete in forms. The Think Secret rumor site has the scoop." It is not merely a rumor, I've confirmed it. It works nicely, too, in a brief test. Then I, uh, deleted the copy I looked at.
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Safari Beta Leaked, With Tabs

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  • Hooray! (Score:5, Informative)

    by tamen ( 308656 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:27AM (#5369746) Homepage
    Tabs ho!

    You need to activate the debug menu. While Safari is not running, write this in the terminal:
    defaults write IncludeDebugMenu 1
    Start Safari (Beta .62) and choose "Tabbed Browsing" in the debug menu.
    Command-T will open a new tab as will right clicking on a link and choose "Open link in new tab". Command-W will close the tab you are currently using. Command-shift-right/leftarrow wil choose the prev/next tab.
    One thing though, tabs slows down the gui, not page-load-time, but it takes longer to switch between tabs than to switch between windows. Also, if you have, say, 5 tabs in one window and are looking at the last (the one most to the right) command-shift-rightarrow will not cycle you back to the first tab. Another thing is that Safari sometimes closes the whole window instead of just the tab when you press command-W.
    Ive got only small complaints, Im very impressed they got it working so well already. Cant wait for the final.

    Tabbing is a nice feature, but Ive kinda got used to not using tabs after shifting to Safari. well, Ive just got to get used to tabbing again ;)
    • Re:Hooray! (Score:5, Informative)

      by sapporo ( 552550 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:45AM (#5369805)
      Cmd-click will open a link in a new tab
      Cmd-Shift-click will open a link in a new tab in the background
      Cmd-Option-click will open a link in a new window
      Cmd-Option-Shift-click will open a link in a new window in the background

      How did I find out? When you hover over a link, Safari shows you what it would do if you clicked that link in the status bar. Very convenient.

    • Re:Hooray! (Score:4, Funny)

      by Lewisham ( 239493 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @03:09PM (#5371999)
      Using, um, an uplink, um, to a disk server that, um, is in *no way connected to me*, I tried out tabbed Safari.

      I almost wept a tear. It was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen (apart from Oolong []. I was atheist. I now see the light.

      In Steve I trust.

      It also fixed my blog page's CSS troubles. Woo!
    • Re:Hooray! (Score:5, Informative)

      by sergeantmudd ( 647674 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @03:27PM (#5372190)
      You don't need even the debug menu unless you wanna turn tabs on and off on the fly. (Which you might because clicking on a link opens a new tab, not a new window, which some might now like in all cases) In terminal just type

      "defaults write TabbedBrowsing 1"
  • Oh? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ptaff ( 165113 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:36AM (#5369773) Homepage
    So, Galeon, Konqueror, Mozilla, Netscape, Opera, Safari, (...!) all have tabbed browsing?

    Who's missing? oh! sorry, I remember, they don't care about usability anymore, they have 95% of the market.

    "People don't use tabs, look, mommy, 95% of people live without."

    Innovation: don't ever use bright ideas from others.
    • CrazyBrowser [] - These guys have it, too. It's a decent browser. *shrug* Works well, doesn't crash, fast-ish browsing, little slow though.
      • by cymen ( 8178 )
        Just to point out CrazyBrowser is a new web browser in the same way as Galeon or the browser-formerly-known-as-phoenix-yet-not-renamed- yet. They use the IE engine.

        From the FAQ page:
        Crazy Browser is not IE plug-in or add-on, it just uses IE rendering engine to render the Web pages. Programming is not so easy, I have been developing Crazy Browser for two years.

        I tried CrazyBrowser in the lab at school and it was pretty sweet. I did find the multiple close buttons a little odd, non-intuitive, and put in a poor location.
    • Re:Oh? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Consul ( 119169 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:46AM (#5370123) Journal
      So, Galeon, Konqueror, Mozilla, Netscape, Opera, Safari, (...!) all have tabbed browsing?

      Who's missing?

      Well, I don't remember using tabbed browsing in Lynx (or Links). ;-)
      • Re:Oh? (Score:5, Funny)

        by c13v3rm0nk3y ( 189767 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @11:28AM (#5370350) Homepage
        Well, I don't remember using tabbed browsing in Lynx

        Wasn't that called emacs or screen?

      • Re:Oh? (Score:3, Funny)

        Lynx (or Links)

        Folks, these are not the same browser. Lynx is sane, bloat-free, simple. Links has color and support for other bloatware like tables. This crap slows my computer to a grinding halt. Bloat I tell you!!! Next we'll be seeing popup ads, tabs, and other horrible things. Worst yet I hear they will be changing the name to (B)Links once they add support for everyone's favorite HTML tag....

    • Re:Oh? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mgaiman ( 151782 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @11:29AM (#5370357) Homepage
      The difference, though, is that on Windows you have the Taskbar at the bottom of the screen that allows you to switch back and forth between windows easily. You only really need to have tabs when there isn't an easy way to switch between windows. Tabs allow you to easily have a running list of all open browser windows and to switch back and forth, something that the MacOS window cascade has difficulty with.

      Please don't get me wrong, I love OSX with a passion, but this is just an area where the windows taskbar shines over the dock. It doesn't happen often.

      Tabs are essential to the mac browsing experience in my mind.
      • Re:Oh? (Score:3, Informative)

        by prinzip ( 603175 )
        Just to point out:

        - Mozilla run on windows, many people use it and it have tabs

        and more important:

        Apple didn't create tabs idea, it came from Mozilla, then from Linux And Windoz...
        • I thought it came from Opera first?
          • Not exactly. Opera had a standard Windows MDI mode with a "task bar" at the bottom (which isn't a standard Windows MDI feature but is a fairly obvious feature to add.) It wasn't quite tabs, but was similar.

            The first implementation of tabs per se, IIRC, was GNOME/Mozilla's Galeon's. Tabs are the standard way of implementing MDI in GNOME, and someone thought it'd be a good idea to have them in Galeon. Note that this is different to being a straight copy of Opera - the innovation here was born from using GNOME's standard MDI technology to implement an MDI version of the browser. It wasn't that someone with extreme myopia saw someone clicking on buttons in Opera and switching between different pages and thought "Gracious, that person's using TABS to move around!" Aside from anything else, the Opera "task bar" buttons are at the bottom...

            It was Galeon's implementation that prove to be a roaring success and drove their adoption in other browsers.

            It's remarkable how, in the space of two years, a complete urban legend can originate about something where two minutes playing with the technologies and implementations would dispell such myths. Still, the technology industry seems to be littered with them...

      • Re:Oh? (Score:2, Informative)

        by ptaff ( 165113 )
        If you could open more than 4 windows without making the OS crash, the taskbar would become so cluttered that it would make it unusable.

        I also despise the XP-way of putting all IE windows on the same taskbar 'button': 2 steps that could be made into 1 with a tab.

        My 0,02$

      • by -ndi- ( 615871 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @02:19PM (#5371546)
        You only really need to have tabs when there isn't an easy way to switch between windows.
        Don't get me wrong, I am all for tabs, but there is an even easier way to switch between all windows of the current application in OSX, Cmd-` cycles through them. This may be common knowledge, I just thought I'd point it out for completeness...
        • to switch between all windows of the current application in OSX, Cmd-` cycles through them.
          If only that were the case.

          One of my usability peeves with OS X: Cmd-tab switches between applications, not windows. That's fine. Cmd-backtick switches between windows in the current app. That's fine too, even though I have to say I was more used to alt-tab doing both for me in other OSes.

          The problem arises when trying to keyboard-navigate to windows of an app that are minimized to the dock

          Unfortunately, cmd-backtick doesn't "switch between all windows of the current application". It only switches between all non-minimized windows of the current application.

          Now, given that I don't have multiple or virtual desktops, I'm forced to hide unused apps and minimize windows of apps that I'm using, just to keep my desktop reasonably organized. And it still doesn't work too well. Ah well.

      • Re:Oh? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by GlassHeart ( 579618 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @03:08PM (#5371990) Journal
        [navigating web browser windows] just an area where the windows taskbar shines over the dock

        And in other cases, it doesn't. The Windows taskbar gets cluttered a lot more quickly than the Dock, because every window gets a "tab". I don't need a "tab" for the window I'm typing email in, because I don't type too many of them at the same time, so clicking the mail application icon is sufficient to switch back.

        This is why tabbed browsing, implemented in the browser, is better. It's available where it's needed, but doesn't clutter up other applications that don't need it. Perhaps Apple will update Cocoa so that Document-based applications can get tabbed navigation for free.

  • Not the first time (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CottonEyedJoe ( 177704 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:37AM (#5369777) Journal
    Apple has been doing alot of listening lately. The Apple menu was replaced in 10.0 (it was an ornament in the Public Beta), spring loaded folders reappeared in Jaguar to much fanfare. They even listened on the unix side... bash replaced zsh as the default "bourne" shell around the jaguar release (possibly a bit sooner I use ksh and didnt pay that close attention). Now if they would only listen release the "G5"... In whatever form it takes.
  • Argument for tabs (Score:5, Informative)

    by elliotj ( 519297 ) <slashdot.elliotjohnson@com> on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:48AM (#5369814) Homepage
    According to an off-the-cuff test I performed a few days ago, tabbed browsing can cut your RAM requirements in half and greatly speed up your system.

    On my Mac I opened Chimera and filled up the window with as many tabs as it would allow (16 in a single window). All windows displayed the Slashdot mainpage. My Slashdot prefs are set to show all stories from all sections.

    I checked the system usage in the Process Viewer app:

    Navigator %CPU 9.00 %Memory 11.20

    I then closed all the windows and did the same thing, this time opening 16 SEPARATE windows. Again with Slashdot's mainpage loaded in each.

    Process Viewer showed:

    Navigator %CPU 9.20 %Memory 22.40

    So, according to this unscientific off-the-cuff test, you cut your RAM requirements in half by using tabs. YMMV.

    I noticed this the other day when I opened over 50 different images in different windows. My Mac almost ground to a halt. I then opened the same images in tabs (in only a few windows ... again Chimera limits you to 16 tabs per window), and my performance was great.

    So, to all those who think tabbed browsing is purely a matter of personal preference, I suggest that there is at least a reasonable performance based argument for it.
    • Re:Argument for tabs (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rufo ( 126104 )
      Yeah, but that might be something related to Chimera itself, not anything that Safari would take advantage of. Remember, the two browsers aren't anything like each other, so just because something works, doesn't work, or acts one way in one browser doesn't mean it will work anything like it in another.
      • Re:Argument for tabs (Score:5, Informative)

        by moof1138 ( 215921 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @11:09AM (#5370246)
        No. This is not guesswork. A window is inherently a much more heavyweight entity than a view inside a window, and will necessarily consume more RAM. Take a look at the cocoa docs for all the components of a NSWindow. Assuming that the tabs are subclassed NSView, take a look at what is involved there. Beyond that, windows are double buffered, have border transparencies/shadows and other RAM-hogging aspects not associated with a view. In OS X, more windows inherently means more RAM. If a window with three tabs ate as much RAM as three separate windows in Safari, that would indicate extremely crappy coding, and I guarantee you I would not use the browser based on that fact.
        • Re:Argument for tabs (Score:3, Informative)

          by jcr ( 53032 )
          A window is inherently a much more heavyweight entity than a view inside a window, and will necessarily consume more RAM.

          The cost of a titled window in memory is:

          132 bytes for the window itself
          184 bytes for the border view ..and then whatever its title, contentview, and so forth add up to. An NSView's instance size is 80 bytes. So basically, a window isn't all that expensive.

          If a window with three tabs ate as much RAM as three separate windows in Safari, that would indicate extremely crappy coding, and I guarantee you I would not use the browser based on that fact.

          If you did so, you'd be jumping to conclusions based on extremely limited information, and it would be rather stupid of you to base your choice of a browser upon such a doctrinaire prejudice.


    • I think you should close Chimera and reopen it between tests. You may just have found memory leaks or even an active memory cache which goes up with each site, tabbed or not. And yes, it could exist for each even if the same site - you'd need a seperate history for each, wouldn't you? I assume Back on each tab would take you to the last page on that tab. In order to do that the browser needs a seperate list per page, whether tabbed or not.

      I'm not saying that that is the only source for the difference, I just wanted to point out that without quitting the results are even less accurate than you think. I will admit your other test does support your argument, I just think the 50% you saw at first could have been inflated.
    • I opened 7 instances of non-tabbed safari to the same page ( ) Safari's memory usage was 21.70 I completely exited safari and started it back up, this time i opened in 7 tabs in one window. this time the memory usage was 10.70. it cut memory usage in this informal test by more than 50% One thing I noticed is that if you have tabbed browsing enabled, but open 8 new windows (not tabs) starting with the 8th it will just create new tabs on the 7th window instead of creating more windows.
      • I cannot confirm this. I just used cmd-n to open 10 new pages (which autoload /. [my homepage]). All 10 popped up in their own windows... no tabs. And before you ask, yes, I did get a copy of v62 this morning...
  • Tabs and MDI (Score:5, Interesting)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:48AM (#5369821) Journal
    The wide success of "Tabbed browsing", heralded in by Opera seems to indicate Microsoft was wrong to call MDI "depricated" and attempt to force users to a "document centric" rather than "application centric" view of the computer.

    Microsoft's implementation of MDI could easily be called confusing, with multiple sets of window control decorations so close together, however, I don't think that points as much to a fatal flaw in the idea of MDI, as it does to a flawed implementation. MDI has real life analogies too.

    Imagine your computer is a large shop, each application is a machine that does a certain function. It is perfectly natural to think in terms of "I need to lathe this piece of metal, so I'll to take it to the lathe. I can set other pieces I am going to lathe on the lathe table."

    Document centric is like, "OK I have metal, I need to run it through the lathe, so I will feed it into this huge machine that will try to guess what I want to do with it, and hopefully it will wind up on the lathe." It's very unnatural.
    • The wide success of "Tabbed browsing", heralded in by Opera seems to indicate Microsoft was wrong to call MDI "depricated" and attempt to force users to a "document centric" rather than "application centric" view of the computer.

      It's funny how excel uses MDI. Then again, all technologies aren't bad. Just using them everywhere isn't always great.

    • Check out Dave Hyatt's weblog [] on this issue.
  • by ubiquitin ( 28396 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @09:56AM (#5369859) Homepage Journal
    ...can the new Safari beta be able to bookmark a set of tabs all at once? Chimera/Navigator does this, so that in the morning I can load about ten top news pages (including slashdot of course) all at once which saves a LOT of time. I'll be sticking with Chimera until Safari gets multi-tab-bookmarks.
  • by ubiquitin ( 28396 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:02AM (#5369892) Homepage Journal
    1. Quit Safari.
    2. Open a terminal and type:
    defaults write IncludeDebugMenu 1
    3. Relaunch Safari.
  • Everyone? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:16AM (#5369965) Journal
    Geez, is everyone here running unreleased pre-betas of Safari?

    I'm reminded of when some ZDNet columnist wrote a column on OS X DR3 based on Apple's press releases. He got an avalanche of emails saying, "Are you an IDIOT? Have you even SEEN DR3?" which, of course, he hadn't, being that it was a developer-only release. DR3 was warezed so widely, though, that just about every Rhapsody-starved Mac user was running it (myself included).

    I guess I'd better reinstall Hotline and start clicking porn banners to get a nick/pass...

    • Re:Everyone? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by tamen ( 308656 )
      Im also suprised about the availabillity of the new Safari Betas. It might be connected to the low file-size. The newest beta is only 2.5mb. Even people in modem-land will gladly download that. Compared to the multi-gig downloads real warez-hogs do every day this is peanuts.
    • Re:Everyone? (Score:5, Informative)

      by ollie_ob ( 580756 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:33AM (#5370054) Journal
      To prevent massive Slashdotting I'm not going to link directly to the beta from here, but if you go to Dave Hyatt's weblog and have a look at the comments for the most recent story, there's apparently a working link there. Ollie
      • Re:Everyone? (Score:4, Informative)

        by transient ( 232842 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:59AM (#5370187)
        He speaks the truth. I just downloaded it from there.
      • Re:Everyone? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by CompVisGuy ( 587118 )
        Thanks for the "link".

        The location of the beta is indeed as almost specified above.

        I now have tabs in Safari -- thanks.

        I was using Chimera, but it would crash after running for about a week (OK, so pretty reliable compared to some browsers...); although Chimera has tabs, it doesn't have many other features one expects from a browser (being all minimalist and stuff...). The Chimera team haven't released in a while due to legal issue with the Chimera name, but they say that version 0.7 is just around the corner, and I guess we can expect some significant changes. I'll certainly keep a copy of Chimera on my iBook (taking the total to ... 4 browsers now):

        * Safari v62
        * Chimera
        * Opera
        * IE (yeugh!)

        It'll be nice when Apple have completed Safari (it certainly won't be complete without tabs!), as 4 browsers is ridiculous!

        So, here's wishing luck to the Chimera and Safari projects!
  • by X_Caffeine ( 451624 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:21AM (#5369995)
    I hope that Apple is bright enough to have an option that forces all "open in new window" javascripts to "open in new tab." This is possible in Mozilla and Phoenix (but not Chimera), but requires a plug-in installation.

    I've seen many new users of tabbed browsing become baffled by new windows popping up all over the place. If tabbed browsing is to be integrated, it needs to be done right. This seems like the sort of humane interface element that Apple used to have a real knack for, but since OS X you never can quite be sure.
    • by klui ( 457783 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:59AM (#5370193)
      I hope not. Open in New Window should do as it says rather than doing something else.

      You're right. Tabbed browsing should be integrated properly and what you've suggested is not what I would consider "done right"; in fact, it would baffle new users even more.
  • by masq ( 316580 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @10:57AM (#5370175) Homepage Journal
    It's hard being a mindless Apple zealot with Apple changing their minds so much. Our job as zealots is to screamingly defend whatever Apple does without thinking or considering what's best for the user or common sense. We defend Apple Corporation's interests over the users' desires at all costs. Our job is to claim tabs suck when they don't have tabs, the G4 1Ghz is as fast as the Pentium4 3.0Ghz, RISC is better than CISC, slower memory and busspeed is a GOOD thing, proprietary software is freer than open source, Safari Beta is more stable than established and mature browsers, paying for .Mac is a privilege, Steve didn't lie when he said "Free Forever .Mac", using the DMCA is justified when Apple does it but not anyone else, etc etc.

    Originally, all us zealots had to violently attack everyone who said tabs were a good idea, saying they were crude and unintuitive. Now, we have to do a complete reversal and furiously attack anyone who is against tabs. It just never ends.

    The life of a spin doctor is a tough one, but immensely satisfying.

  • by The Bum ( 597124 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @11:20AM (#5370302)
    Now that Safari will presumably be getting tabs, the next feature that's needed is Keychain integration similar to that in Chimera. In fact, Keychain integration was #1 on my list (just ahead of tabs at #2) of new features I'd really like to see in Safari. Yeah, I know the Keychain will work for login dialogs and web sites that have been written to support it, but what makes Chimera really nice is that it'll use the Keychain for sites that don't explicitly support it.
    • i started using safari v62 w/ tabs on saturday... and it has keychain integration in its infancy - it asks for permission to decrypt the correct passwords when entering sites, but does not place them in the fields as required. so its coming, but slowly.

      v62 is the first i've started using safari, and am liking it about the same as chimera for now. once there are prefs to open tabs in teh background, and a way to open up multiple sites in different tabs at the same time, i'll switch for good.

      another benefit of the debug menu is being able to specify which browser you are represented as - so going to i can say i am MSIE and they let me use the site.
  • Safari 4 All (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24, 2003 @12:01PM (#5370554)
    Get your Safari Beta (with tabs!) HERE: .d mg
  • by krray ( 605395 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @12:57PM (#5370862)
    Wow. Apple listens. Day 1 I sent a bug report to them for their own website. I could see tabs on the site, but not in my browser?

    I wonder if they'll do one of my other requests. Sync'ing the bookmarks across .Mac connected systems. One bookmark file. Always managed. Always the same.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24, 2003 @01:07PM (#5370942)
    Well the site is hosed, but while we're on the subject, is there any better solution than tabs?

    When you think about tabs, the history list, SnapBack, and bookmarks, you can see they are all a bit similar. They all take you to different pages. Tabs are treated specially. Maybe they shouldn't be?

    Different ways to think about tabs:

    * Per-window, per-session Bookmarks that retain form entries and other state.

    * "SnapForward" .. pages you want to jump to in the future, rather than the past.

    * nonlinear per-window history list .. again, tabbed windows are sites you want to add to the list, so you can visit them in the future.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I wish Apple or someone would think about the "essence" of tabbed browsing, and come up with something *better*.

    And the "tabbed browsing is MDI is evil" folks might even like it. Hint: think about each browser window representing a *browsing session* rather than a *web page*, and it will go down easier. (As if web browsers are poster children for GUI design in the first place).

    Maybe Apple thought about it, and decided that tabs were best because they were familiar to people. But that's not Apple's style.

    Now I'm not complaining about Safari specifically, in fact when the official Safari with tabs comes out, I will have little reason to use any other web browser, but I can't help thinking the tabbed browsing interface can be made even better.
    • "SnapForward" .. pages you want to jump to in the future, rather than the past.

      The day my web browser knows what page I want to go to in the future is the day I quit web browsing.

      I know, I know, it's a pyrrhic victory at best, since my web browser will know what day that will be before I do.

  • My feature (Score:3, Interesting)

    by papasui ( 567265 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @01:26PM (#5371104) Homepage
    This would be something I'd like to see implemented (and many web masters probably would like to see not implemented). The ability to set a timer for a webpage to refresh, on an individual page basis. So on sites that I frequently view, I don't have to refresh constantly, I already know that the page has been reloaded recently. Web admins would probably hate this as it would put additional load on the server as the pages refresh, but I know it would make me happier. :)
    • The ability to set a timer for a webpage to refresh, on an individual page basis.

      Ever heard of meta refresh? Look up the "meta" tag and how to use its "refresh" attribute--works wonderfully in every browser I've ever used.
  • by 3-State Bit ( 225583 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @05:03PM (#5373104)
    remember to allow us to bookmark tab-groups.

    Tabbed bookmarks are live-and-die for me.

    PLEASE remember to allow us to bookmark groups of tabs!

    I'm writing on Safari now, but if I wanted to get serious work done I would have to open Chimera (where all my bookmarks are, almost all of them tab-groups).

    Thanks a million for listening to us!
  • Apple listening

    From January 9 []:

    Wild conjecture: Suppose you were Apple, and had long planned to include tabbed browsing. (As in, you actually hired the guy who put it into Mozilla, and then went on to do it again in Chimera.)

    You could either include it right away -- and have all of us whiners concentrate the whining on something ELSE...

    ...OR, you could save it for later -- and then masterfully demonstrate how well attuned you are to user feedback!

  • I dunno what it was, I was looking at the submission and picturing an apple employee tapping out morse code on the tab key.

    I was curious, so I opened the story in a new tab... then I got it.

  • by whee ( 36911 ) on Monday February 24, 2003 @06:36PM (#5374119)
    I've gathered some data and made graphs of Chimera versus Safari when dealing with tabs and windows. Memory usage and cumulative CPU time are measured, and compared.

    Have a looksie. []

  • command ~ (Score:2, Informative)

    by Dokushoka ( 570664 )
    Faster than a mouse, you can switch pages, and without the clutter of tabs.

The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away.