Mac OS X Update 10.2.4 Resets 135
Oculus Habent writes "It may just be me, but 10.2.4 reset a number of settings on my computer, including icon sizes, window positions, and dock size and contents. Minor annoyances, but completely unnecessary. Is anyone else experiencing this?" As for me, Apple re-added some apps to my Dock and overwrote all my changes to httpd.conf (though it did back it up first) to add mod_rendezvous_apple. But those problems pale in comparison to some others: Anonymous Coward writes "If you upgraded your Mac desktop to 10.2.4 last weekend, check your date and time. Many users have suddenly found it to be 4:00 PM, December 31, 1969 again. Apparently, this happens whenever they are shut down or restarted, and resetting the motherboard and/or the PRAM doesn't fix it. Complaints have been piling up at Apple.com and prices for batteries have been skyrocketing - but relax. It's not your battery!"
No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:5, Interesting)
I submit that as usual, the majority of issues are not directly related to 10.2.4. If you move apps where Apple's installer doesn't expect them to be (and don't whine how it is your computer and not Apple's), you'll have boinked links, and dock icon issues. If you've done a poor original install, you'll have issues with system updates, whether the bad install was your gift to the afternoon or not. Get over it...the sky hasn't fallen...this is not OS 9, and the sooner we all get used to a modern OS the happier we will be.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
Silly that although PHP is installed, and the AddModule and LoadModule lines for the PHP module are in httpd.conf ready to be uncommented and spring into action, that a simple commented out line like
AddType application/x-httpd-php
is not present in the httpd.conf. It would be nice to simply find and uncomment all the lines in httpd.conf that contain the letters PHP and have it do its thing!
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2)
I understand why the system files should be left well alone but it *really* annoys me that the updaters get picky on the location of the 'Applications' folder. I have the core OS on its own partition and I put the apps on a larger partition. I even give the OS a clue by making '/Applications' a symlink to the actual location of the apps. Why then do updaters insist on replacing the symlink with a new '/Applications' folder? Why can't it just follow the damn link? It's not so bad when an entire app is updated - just drag it into *my* apps folder and the job is done. The real PITA is when an app bundle is partially updated and you have a folder full of crud to merge with the original.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
Looks like a complete reinstall job. And I *swear* I haven't buggered about with things that much, if at all... Pah.
That said, I love OS X. Bloody masochist that I am...
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
I guess the same amount of ppl would be up in arms if the next update of OSX didn't allow them to move system files...
Draw the line somewhere... pluuheease!
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:4, Funny)
If so, thank you. I made quite a bit of money cleaning up other people's silly messes back then.
good one...I forgot about all those rescues (Score:3, Funny)
silly messes...that's funny...like a stain on the carpet, only it doesn't smell.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2)
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:3, Insightful)
So, if moving some part of the system folder somewhere else is going to fuck up the computer, or worse, NOT fuck up the computer but fuck up the next update, that folder ought to not be changeable by the user. Doing otherwise is not "friendly", it just allows people to blow their legs off.
After all, my car won't let me start the engine in drive, my microwave won't let me start it with the door open, why the hell should my computer let me do patently stupid things?
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2)
As for applications, I couldn't say. I keep most everything Applications because there's little need for me to move it, and I'm not trying to hide anything on my Mac.
sudo doesn't require NetInfo hacking (Score:2)
Re:sudo doesn't require NetInfo hacking (Score:2, Informative)
Re:sudo doesn't require NetInfo hacking (Score:1)
Or you can just "sudo passwd root" in terminal.app if you're an administrative user, give it your password, change the root password, and party. I think enabling root consists of nothing more than giving it a password...
-matt
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
So security (from stupid users) by obscurity is supposed to be good in this context then?
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2, Insightful)
You don't make sense.
Yeah, your car won't start in drive, but you can run into a tree. You can throw it in reverse or shift gears at the wrong time. You can load your SUV wrong and it will flip over ("BUT why didn't sense the weight and warn me").
Your microwave won't start without the door open. However, nothing will stop you from microwaving steel wool, or a battery, or an unopened champagne bottle (don't do any of that btw).
Moving apps out of Applications folder doesn't break anything except updates and some hard-wired paths. It's not a big deal. You probably have a mental list of things you don't do with a computer, like not operating it underwater, or not flicking the power switch on and off 60 times a second. Well, add "don't move Apple's applications" to that list. Sheesh.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2)
The fact remains, if you make something easy to do, someone will do it; you should either make allowances for the fact that they will, or make it so they can't (or at least make it hard to do).
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:4, Funny)
# mv
# reboot
Ooooops.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:2)
Umm... you mean have the user restricted so that they don't have permission to do it?? What OS do YOU use? Technically, Apple DOES do this. Only the Admin user (when prompted for sudo authentication) can make such changes. The problem is that people use an admin user as their main user, without thinking about the consequences, and then do what they want.
People are used to the old Mac and Windows world, where any user is "root" privileges. They're not used to be forced into a structure... and of course, the average Joe seems to refuse to accept this (in general).
So... before you make a comment like that, maybe you SHOULD use what you are commenting on. OS X, like any other *nix, does enforce what should or shouldn't be done. But like any other *nix, a "root" or admin user can still make changes. They NEED to be able to, but with caution.
-Alex
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:3, Funny)
What a waste of money! It's MY computer, I should be able to do whatever I like to the hard drive and it should continue to function!!
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
There seems to be a nut loose on your keyboard.
Re:No such panic for me...sky is still up (Score:1)
Still haven't fixed... (Score:2)
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:1)
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:1)
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:2, Informative)
I also see an occasional problem when I have "FILE.jpg" and "FILE.psd" files in the same folder, i.e., the file from my camera and it's edited version. I keep the folders in Icon view with 128x128 icons. Whenever I save the
Drives me nuts, this does!
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:2)
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:1)
I'm so damn glad they fixed that bug with the icons on the desktop moving all sorts of odd directions if you put them on the left side of the screen - it was driving me nuts.
Re:Still haven't fixed... (Score:1)
Works for Me (Score:3, Informative)
I grabbed 10.2.4 as soon as it came out.. indeed, even before it was mentioned on Slashdot! I have not seen any of the problems mentioned.
Though the httpd.conf file was probably replaced, I wouldn't have noticed since this is a laptop and I don't use Apache very often.
Re:Works for Me (Score:4, Funny)
So now it's proven, Slashdot is the cause of all problems!
zero problems for me (Score:5, Informative)
Haven't seen any time/date changes, but my clock is set by NTP anyway.
PS: One thing I like to do before any major update is run something like "find -s / >
PPS: does anybody know what the file
Re:zero problems for me (Score:2, Informative)
That looks like an orphaned file, where there is still a file associated with an inode, but no file name associated with it.
Re:zero problems for me (Score:3, Informative)
lsbom MacOSX10.2.4.pkg/Contents/Archive.bom
Re:zero problems for me (Score:2)
It happened to me! (Score:4, Informative)
Know what I did? I removed the icons, and fixed my prefs. Then I promptly forgot about the whole thing and got on with my life.
I did find it strange though... That sort of thing has never happened to me before
Yeah right. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yeah right. (Score:2, Interesting)
As I mentioned, the changes were more annoyances than failures. I've been quite happy with Macs throughout history, even with the IIsi's sound glitch, the PowerBook 190's power connector, the PB 1400's CD-ROM faces (Three of they have broken, two for me, one for a friend). The difference between my Macs and my PCs is my Macs have never had serious failures. I've lost drives, RAM, processors, motherboards, and modems on my PCs (RAM was cheap, though) and the worst I've done with my Macs is buying bad RAM and a broken LCD from shipping.
I've unintentionally stepped on all three PowerBooks I've owned (maybe I should be more careful) and none of them have broken for failed for it. I actually stepped out of bed on my Pismo - full weight on the closed computer - and it didn't even wake up.
If you want catastrophic software failures, how about the three times NT 4.0 has just stopped recognizing keyboards for me, or the two times Win 2K decided not to make it through boot anymore?
Re:Yeah right. (Score:1)
Having attempted to establish my credentials as a non-MS fan (sadly I really do need to use MS Word, although OpenOffice is getting close to being compatible enough to avoid that), let me say that
1: The upgrade to 10.2 broke Mozilla's Java support for m2.
2: The upgrade to 10.2.4 broke my httpd.conf (a quick fix on each of two machines, but this is a little sloppy of Apple).
3: Each upgrade breaks sendmail (an even quicker fix, as I have a script that fixes the permissions so that sendmail will send mail for me).
Mac OS X is a lot better (for my uses) than Mac OS 9 could ever be, and in some ways it's ahead of other Unix-based systems -- but in many ways it is still somewhat immature (10.1 felt like a beta release, 10.2 fixed 90% of my problems). I'm glad Apple finally released a fairly robust OS, but it does still have some problems. As do they all.
Re:Yeah right. (Score:2)
FWIW... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm a little more fearful about it touching my powerbook G3 (pismo) though. I've frequently had problems with that machine and updates. I've had to completely backup/wipe/reinstall the damn thing at least 5 times due to problems with OSX. It seems that they give considerably less of a damn about older machines than the do about the cream of the crop.
I'll wait a while before installing it on my powerbook.
Re:FWIW... (Score:1)
Re:FWIW... (Score:1)
-- shayborg
Protecting your OS from changes (Score:4, Informative)
Or does this not work?
Re:Protecting your OS from changes (Score:5, Informative)
That won't work, as in order to update the system, you must supply the admin password. The admin [root, but not exactly] can do anything.
Re:Protecting your OS from changes (Score:1)
000 ?
Re:Protecting your OS from changes (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Protecting your OS from changes (Score:1)
odd.
kinda makes sense in the long run since the permissions aren't written to the file.
Re:Protecting your OS from changes (Score:2)
File metadata being written to "file" or to "directory" really doesn't matter. File permissions don't apply to root. You can make directories with 000 and still normally cd to those and use ls to list the contents. Similarly mkdir and rmdir still work fine. One thing to not is that bash doesn't want to execute files without eXecute bit even when root (I guess it's a security feature) so some bits still matter. Doing something like "cd /; chmod -R 000 *" wouldn't be wise.
Oddly enough (Score:2)
Re:Oddly enough (Score:4, Funny)
So, am I the only one who thinks that some people in the UK must spend altogether too much time sitting around in club chairs drinking and inventing new words and idiomatic expressions that mean nothing but *sound* extremely British, and are thus adopted by the pretentious?
Re:Oddly enough (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oddly enough (Score:1)
Re:Oddly enough (Score:2)
And your so-called point is what exactly? :-)
OK, so while we're on the topic of amusing British things, I am reminded of the fact that if you want to buy up all of the works of Wendy Cope, you can finally do so from Amazon.com directly. It used to be the case that you couldn't get Cope at all from them (only from Amazon.co.uk [amazon.co.uk] or from Alibris [alibris.com] if you wanted to save money on shipping and the currency conversion.
And, for you Philistines who don't know Wendy Cope from a Page Three Girl, just buy a copy of "Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis" and find out. Once upon a time, my review of this book at Amazon.com was both accurate and well-regarded:
OK, so it was well-regarded by everybody except one Brit who got his nickers in a twist over the fact that I titled my review "the most enjoyable book of English poetry ever written!". Evidently, excitement and hyperbole are not very much appreciated in England these days, where Tony Blair is apparently considered to be a pretty wild guy...
Re:Oddly enough (Score:4, Funny)
You're complaining about `doddle', right? (Process of elimination.) Okay, it means `something easily done or achieved'. It's a perfectly common* word round our way. Everyone happy now?
(* in both senses)
I tell you what: I'll start worrying about writing so that even the simplest Yank can understand me if you Yanks start writing so we can understand, all right?! (I wonder who will have to change the most there...)
[fx: wanders off muttering about who invented the bloody language in the first place...]
Who invented the language (Score:1)
Of course, this only further supports your claim - if you can take words from another language and call it 'English', why not make up completely new words and say they're English, too. After all, that's what happened with the other languages once upon a time...
Re:Oddly enough (Score:1)
Re:Oddly enough (Score:1)
I'm still amused by a phrase I heard in London a couple of years ago, I was asked "are you in the queue for the lou". I found this usage absolutely splendid, it was much more musical than the American equivalent "are you in line for the bathroom".
As for the 10.2.4 update, I haven't had a problem on any of my Macs (Dual G4 450 & Pismo at work, and my 12" PowerBook & Dual 1ghz at home). Icons are ok, prefs. unchanged, etc, etc.
And even if these small items were changed for some reason or another, I can say it wouldn't really bother me, as long as everything else works.
Re:Oddly enough (Score:1)
Now if you were Glaswegian, that would be a problem
Re:Oddly enough (Score:2)
I was perfectly happy before. I could guess the meaning from context, but I was also struck by how amusingly British the whole sentence sounded. So I made a joke.
Laugh! It's Score: 3 funny! :-)
Meanwhile, I did do some research on the word after posting, and found that some wags insist the term is of Scottish origin. So I was even wrong about the "English in club chairs drinking" angle, although nobody called me on it...
Well, I'm too closely related to certain psycholinguists to stop myself from pointing out that the people who (re)invent the language are, oddly enough, our children. If only we had been able to expose our children to an unbowdlerized Harry Potter at the right age...
Re:Oddly enough (Score:1)
why does everyone jump all over upgrades? (Score:3, Interesting)
Uh, why? I have dozens of windows open, and uptime in the weeks. (This is an iBook -- are you on one? Open terminal and type 'uptime'.).
I read over the improvements, and there's nothing I need right now.
C'mon people. Get with BSD style.
Re:why does everyone jump all over upgrades? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, you do have geeks who will take a more "wait and see" approach, many of whom have the advantage testing it on one machine before putting it on their other boxes. This is fine, but I've found that with OS X it is usually not necessary. I've tried every update on my Powerbook before throwing it on my Cube, and never have I had to wait long because there haven't been any problems. Despite the inevitable horror stories that come with each update, the grand majority of OS X users don't have any problems.
Re:why does everyone jump all over upgrades? (Score:1)
Re:why does everyone jump all over upgrades? (Score:2, Informative)
I agree in principle, but among the bugfixes in the 10.2.4 update were several security-related items. From http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=617 98 [apple.com] (Comments in brackets mine)
Mac OS X 10.2.4
Note: To my knowledge, none of these security fixes were released prior to 10.2.4. You could fix some of them yourself, but for the general Mac audience, that's a wildly unrealistic expectation.
ObOnTopic: I experienced the clock reset on my dualie, but NTP fixed that easily enough. In previous releases, I've had Dock items added and experienced other minor annoyances. It's never been consistent across machines, though, and since the problems were so trivial I never bothered to troubleshoot them further. Permissions issues? Files out of place? Gremlins?
I think it's just you. (Score:4, Interesting)
No new aliases were created on my desktop (Such as for mail, Internet or the like). None of my preferences were overwritten or contradicted.
My clock stayed at the correct time and date, and my network connection stayed configured manually just the was I had it set. (then again, perhaps my time WAS messed up and the auto-time-set feature reset it before I logged in, I just don't know).
That said, if there were going to be any inherent problems with the installer, I would likely be the one to find them. I'm running on and old Biege G3/333 that is overclocked (CPU and bus), with 3 monitors (one from internal, two from an ATI 7000/PCI), a USB/Firewire card, a SCSI card, third party everything in the system except the motherboard and power supply.
Seems to me that if anyone's system broke as a result of the update, that there was something REALLY flakey about the config beforehand, or it is just random coincidence and they are just assigning blame where there really is none.
It may chance or a common aspect. (Score:1)
I'm using a Dual USB 600 MHz iBook, running....10.2.4 and it is a pretty vanilla install but I do have separate Mac OS X and User partitions. I have the Developer Tools installed in case someone is searching for common aspects that may be the cause of this weirdness.
Re:It may chance or a common aspect. (Score:2)
Re:It may chance or a common aspect. (Score:1)
Check here too. [slashdot.org]
several machines, no problem (Score:2)
Maybe these users are using hacks that work outside of published APIs?
Re:several machines, no problem (Score:4, Funny)
I'm connecting with an AirPort card. I have Atlanta as the closest city. I have Time Sync and Software Update's Auto-Check disabled. I have one user, who logs in automatically. The user icon is the half of an orange. I had no Sharing services running at the time. I have a single LaserJet 4 specified in my Print Center. I have my root user enabled.
I use Mail for mail. Address Book for addresses. iCal for a calendar. iTunes for music. Safari for web, with Chimera s backup. Sherlock for some searches, and Text Edit for most of my simple writing. I use Terminla to connect to an HP-UX box at work. I use a VPN connection with Internet Connect sometimes, but not during the update. I have primarily generic US settings.
My Trash was empty. My battery indicator is set to Percent. I have the Day of Week showing in the Menu Clock. My sound was on. I have the Developer Tools installed, but don't really use them.
Does it bother me that something changed? Yes. Am I worried about hosing my machine with the next update? No. Have I sworn of Macs forever? Much to Microsoft's dismay, no.
Why me, then? I don't know. Maybe I wasn't holding my mouth right [google.com].
Seems like a fairly safe release (Score:1)
That said, I spent about an hour in single-user mode when my update got horked in the middle. The installer had been sitting there chewing cpu forever, claiming to be almost done, but making no further progress. I ktraced it, and it appeared to be endlessly looping through calling gettimeofday() as fast as it could. I did what seemed like the only thing available to me: -9'd the installer, and restarted.
This worked out poorly.
Panics on startup, but I was able to get into single-user mode. After a while spent dicking around with manually loading kexts and such, I finally gave up on getting networking up from there, and had a friend burn me the 10.2.4 updater on a cd, and tried to install it again.
Unfortunately, the cli installer was choking on it, for some reason I don't understand. (It was copying parts of the installer to
I finally just dug through the package, got friendly with pax, and manually removed both the kernel extension caches; problem solved.
Had this problem once (Score:1)
For some reason all the entries in my Address Book were recently deleted. This happened shortly after 10.2.4 was installed, but I don't know that it was correlated. Anyway, it's happened before too; I have no idea why, and I don't move the locations of my apps from their default locations.
It's like the Y2K bug... (Score:5, Funny)
As no version earlier than OS 8 has network time support, the new "old" system does not attempt to update from a network time server. The reverted files and dock icons are simply the computer's attempt to show the files as they exist at the "current" time.
A patch may take awhile, due to the difficulty of updating all the old system routines that use the 11-bit signed int format.
Re:It's like the Y2K bug... (Score:2)
My .02... (Score:1)
My 12 computers (Score:2, Informative)
No problems here (Score:2)
No problems here (Score:2)
Logitech Preferences reset... (Score:2)
I'm not sure if this is really because of the update, but I can't think of anything else that I did that might have caused it...
There ARE problems with this update (Score:4, Informative)
Firstly I have to say unfortunately there are inherent problems with this update, and the one about the clock resetting to Jan 1 1970 (plus or minus a few hours depending on your time zone) is absolutely true as I am experiencing it myself.
It does however only seem to be affecting fual processor G4's though, so that may explain the mixed reaction.
If you are still in doubt, check Apple's discussion board here [apple.com] where there are a total of 66 replies to my original post complaining of the clock issue (hopefully link will work, if not, check out the OSX area under discussions on Apple.com).
It seems that a large number of people are having this trouble, and although there is no way I would ever switch to another platform after using OSX, it is disappointing that Apple allows these things through the net.
Although OSX is vastly superior to Windows XP, I simply can't imagine MS distributing an update for Windows that would have this fundamental effect. I think that Apple should make sure they concentrate also on the mundane routine stuff in checking as well as the super-cool revolutionary stuff they are so uniquely good at (Rendezvous, Bluetooth integration, iApps etc etc).
Here's waiting for a fix VERY soon.
-Nex
Um, am I missing something? (Score:2)
1) Make sure you are connected to the internet.
2) Click on your clock, select "Open Date & Time..."
3) Click on "Network Time" tab.
4) Click on "Set Time Now"
Why do you need to wait for apple to update the time on your clock?
Re:Um, am I missing something? (Score:2)
my dual processor g4 (Score:3, Informative)
if it aint broke, dont fix it (Score:1)
use combined update. fix permissions afterwards (Score:2)
Also remember that in a forum such as this, the complaining voices outnumber the ones for whom the update went smoothly just because it's pretty boring to say "Hey, it went fine for me..."
Uneventful Update (Score:1)
I haven't had any time problems, no cryptic error messages, and no other problems that I'm aware of.
Oh, I did have to move iPhoto and iMovie (which I updated via Software Update at the same time that I got 10.2.4). The updaters for them placed them in the Applications directory, and I like to keep my apps a little more organized than that. Just a simple drag and replace and everything was back to how I had it.
Software Update preferences (Score:1)
I didn't notice anyone else mentioning this (although I may have missed it).
10.2.4 Problems (Score:1, Interesting)
the clock resets to 1969. (I set it to network time, and now it keeps track of the time, but even in win98 you don't have to do that)
Sleep no longer works. it either shows garbled screen, or the monitor doesn't come up at all.
Changes resolution on boot up. my 20" dell has no need to be in 800*600 mode.
There is fix to this, that is to insert os x install disk and run disk utility, and it fixes everything. But after a few more bootups, it's all over there again. Now I can't really say that os x is superior to windows since it doesn't know what time it is without asking someone every time it boots up.
Updates always have hazards. (Score:3, Insightful)
This is not your mommy's OS 9 box any more kids. It's a "real" OS with serious power! You can't treat it like OS 9 or even like Windows 98. I noticed immediately that my httpd.conf file had been overwritten and simply copied it back, restarted apache and tested the rest of my system. Other than the downtime to reboot and make the .conf change I had no downtime.
There are bound to be problems with any update. Not all installations are identical, so there are bound to be unforseen changes. I can't speak to the time problems because I use NTP. It is important that my system has the correct time - not just what my mickey mouse watch tells me.
Overall, I'm very happy with the update - my system is as rock-solid as ever!
Whining? (Score:1)
For example, I ran out of space for Applications, so created an Applications partition and mounted it to
I've lost track of which installers are stupid and which are not. Apple's has been, but might now work properly. I know I still get messages from some installers/updaters that the partition I'm installing to must have a System folder. Stupid.
deja vu (Score:2)
"WARNING: preposterous time in Real Time Clock -- CHECK AND RESET THE DATE!"
I've seen this before, and my NeXT Cube and Turbocolor pizzabox are snickering to each other in the closet.
This was a common diagnostic error in text-mode bootup on old NeXT systems with a screwed-up time in NVRAM.
Other thread lists issues too. (Score:2, Informative)
Drops internet on Titanium (Score:1)
Appreciate any insight HERE!
Re:Don't they fucking test these things? (Score:1)
Well you didn't pay for this update now did you?
Re:Don't they fucking test these things? (Score:2)
So what, customers don't pay for the update? They pay for the original OS, which is what puts Apple in business. They have a right to expect quality.
Re:Don't they fucking test these things? (Score:3, Funny)
Every upgrade, no matter how trivial, can bring complications. One must be prepared for such an eventuality, and hopefully face inevitable problems with a bit of grace.... or in your case a bit of fucking grace.
Re:Don't they fucking test these things? (Score:1)
Re:Zero problems here (Score:2)
Re:What a bunch of pompous crap (Score:2)
Do your realize how pathic this sounds?
(Huh? Do my what? Pathic?) Aww, the truth hurts, eh?
The issue is real and it effects only certian machines. Namely dual G4's. Apparenly newer ones.
It effects [purdue.edu] them? A dual G4' [purdue.edu]s what? Hehe...
I have a dual G4. No problems with the update. I don't know whether it's because I'm the superior user with so much knowledge etc..., but I obviously have much more knowledge of the English language than you. And computers are less forgiving of errors than people are--I understood you, despite your atrocious grammar and spelling. I'm not surprised your OS is hosed--you probably make as many errors when giving commands to your Mac as you do when writing,