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Apple Businesses Hardware

Is Monitor Spanning Possible on an iBook? 105

Posted by Cliff from the two-heads-are-better-than-a-clone-of-one dept.
bcassell asks: "I just recently (a few days ago) purchased an iBook. It's the base model (600mhz, 12" screen). After playing with it for a while I decided to plug it into my nice 21" Dell CRT, only to find that the iBook ONLY supports display mirroring (so I'm stuck at 1024x768). Well, knowing that the video card in my iBook is an ATI Radeon mobility which, by ATI's specs, supports monitor spanning, I decided to do some research. I found several discussions about the subject, and one person who even claimed to have monitor spanning working on his iBook in Mac OS 9. So does anyone know of a way to get monitor spanning to work on an iBook in Mac OS X? Or, if not, where would a very proficient coder/hacker like myself, who has very little Mac OS X experience, find information to attempt a hack like this?"
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Is Monitor Spanning Possible on an iBook? More

Is Monitor Spanning Possible on an iBook?

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  • I have a 700mhz iBook, and I absolutely love it, best machine I've ever owned, OSX runs like a dream on it. However, monitor spanning would make it that much cooler....

  • exactly what apple doesn't want (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Splork ( 13498 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @04:28PM (#4114756) Homepage
    even though it is easy and cheap to include such a feature. apple won't do it. doing that would prevent "serious users" (read: users with cash burning a hole in their pocket) from buying their $3000 machine in favor of their $1500 one.

    welcome to apple. bend over.

  • brute force (Score:3, Funny)

    by Izanagi ( 466436 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @04:29PM (#4114760) Journal
    A steam roller should span out your monitor to a good size.
    • ....is to get a higher resolution. This is why connecting my calculator to a projector doesn't let me see more details in mario.

      Please don't tell Ms. Deaton, the teacher of Adv. pre Calculus at JCHS that I, Travis Goodspeed, the only sophomore in the class, used her overhead projector to play mario during fourth period onaugust 22, 2002. Feel free to suggest that she replace the TI-86 projector with a TI-89 projector.

  • Should be possible... (Score:4, Informative)

    by RevAaron ( 125240 ) <revaaron@LIONhotmail.com minus cat> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @04:29PM (#4114764) Homepage
    I came across the same info myself- same chip as in older PowerBooks which had the ability to monitor-span. I've a feeling that it's disabled as a part of the driver- to give people a reason to get a PB over an iBook, I suppose.

    To get it to work with the iBook, I imagine you'd have to write a new driver for OS X. Perhaps the ATI 128 driver from Linux and docs from ATI (specs) and Apple (DDK, monitors-api for OS X) should be enough? Apple may have done something to disable this feature on the chip itself, or perhaps in OpenFirmware, but I pray that it's just an issue of drivers.

    Can Linux/X11 use monitor spanning on a PowerBook with the same chip as in the iBook? If that's the case, perhaps the next step to determine if it's just a gimpy driver in OS X or something in HW/firmware would be to see if the same technique to get dual-head setup for a PowerBook works for the iBook with the same gfx chipset.

    Many iBook owners will be forever in your debt if you got this to work. Myself included, at least until I sell my iBook to get an OQO for running Dynapad [swiki.net]. :)
    • I'm the one that posted this question, btw.

      These are the two things that make me hopeful:

      1) Someone claims to have it working in OS 9, and they seemed to have just copied new drivers over (see link in the article).

      2) I've heard a couple second-hand confirmations that monitor spanning works fine in linux. I haven't actually seen this working, so I can't confirm. If it comes down to it, I'll probably install linux myself to test it.

      So based on those two things, I THINK it's purely a software thing (probably gimpy Mac OS drivers). I'm wondering if it's actually at the driver level, though, or if maybe it's even higher up? Like with the control panels? If so, then it might be even easier to hack.

      Bryan
      • I have Linux installed now, but I've not tried it. I'm switching back to OS X as soon as I get a hold of Jag. [1]

        If you could, please shoot me an email and let me know of your success.

        I've a feeling that to get it working in OS 9, it involves editing a resource. I think that all ATI 128 (in general, or maybe just all Mobility 128s) share the same extension as a driver. In the extension, there is probably an if-then that gets the gestalt of the machine, and doesn't tell OS 9 that it can do monitor spanning if it's an iBook.

        Well, this appears to be yet another instance where they put up an Ask Slashdot when a 30-second Google search mostly suffices: have a look at this [macparts.de]. :) Doesn't include a solution for OS X, but definately has our answer.

        [1] I used to use Linux as my primary OS when I used a PC, bought a Mac 2.5 years ago for OS X, but switched to Linux for a while to see if it still sucked like I remembered. Seems to suck even more after getting used to Mac OS X. :P
        • Well, this appears to be yet another instance where they put up an Ask Slashdot when a 30-second Google search mostly suffices: have a look at this [macparts.de]. :) Doesn't include a solution for OS X, but definately has our answer.


          If you take another look, I actually linked that site in the post. That person claims to have it working in OS 9. I'm looking for a solution for OS X.

          You said you are running linux now? I take it to mean you are running it on an ibook? If so, would it be possible for you to test monitor spanning? Having a definite answer whether or not it works in linux would be helpful.
          • Touche. :)

            Yup, I'm running Debian 3.0 on an iBook 500 MHz. I could try the monitor spanning, but I can try to do it this week. I'm in the middle of a project so I don't be able to try it tonight. I'm not sure where my VGA cable is either. :/ But if I find out, I'll reply to this message and report- if there are any other iBook2 users runing Linux (I know there are!) please let us know!
    • I run Debian on an iBook. Mirroring doesn't even work useably in Linux--the CRT is very wobbly. There was a huge dicussion about it on debian-powerpc a while back, but I wasn't technically savvy enough to understand everything.

      The point is, I doubt if spanning is just around the corner, since they've been struggling just to get mirroring working.

  • You might try... (Score:3, Informative)

    by SlurpDog ( 118432 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @04:34PM (#4114790)
    You might try posting this question to the forums at www.xlr8yourmac.com (did you know you can overclock your iBook via software?). There's also a similar thread on the iBook forum at apple.com, though the only answers so far there is to buy a PowerBook instead.
  • So I understand you followed the guy's instructions and they didn't work? Have you checked ATI's website for updated drivers?
    • I don't actually have OS 9 installed. I'm not interested in using OS 9 at all, I bought this machine purely to use OS X. So I haven't tried his instructions.

      As for drivers, ATI doesn't appear to distribute drivers for their mobility chips. They only distribute drivers for boards that they sell retail.
      • also was there any way to follow his instructions without the OS 9 path? It sounded perhaps as if having OS 9 merely helped him discover it.
        • Hmmm, I could try the non-mobility drivers. I'm not really familiar with the driver model in OS X, so I don't know where to start with the driver issue. The other problem could be if the feature is actually disabled higher up than the driver. It seems like it would be easier for apple to simply change their display control panel to not allow this feature. If so, maybe a hack would be as easy as writing a new display control panel? Again, I'm not familiar at all with the internals of OS X, I was hoping maybe someone with a bit more knowledge in that area could provide some insights...
          • I believe you'll find the chip does support spanning, but the ability has been disabled so that Apple can clearly delineate the iBook/PowerBook lines

            spanning = G4
            G4 = G4
            Bigger screen = G4
            Slot Load Driver = G4
            DVI = G4

            etc...

            Anywho, assuming the hardware is capable of it, then the ability has just been disabled.

            I can think of 3 areas where it could be disabled

            1) the openfirmware could disable it in the chip... somehow
            2) the driver could disable it, or just not advertise the ability
            3) the config software could pretend it doesn't exist, and perhaps actively set it to mirroring

            if its 2 or 3, then most likely, there will be a gestalt check (gestalt will tell the software which model/series the machine is etc), and after the check the software will make the necessary adjustments.

            If that is the case, then all you need to do is 'krack' the driver/config software. Simply set the jump so that the driver does not recognise teh ibook, or recognises it as a powerbook, or recognises it and DOESN'T disable spanning.

            Or whatever.

            Your first step should be to prove that the hardware is capable of spanning, and if this works in OS9, then go and install OS9 right now ;)

            Just because you don't want to use OS9 is no reason not to use it to prove that it works... if you are serious about tackling this issue ;)

            Anywho, once you've proved it works... then you have to work out when/where it gets disabled...

            Bit tricky... I don't even know how OSX software detects models (ie gestalt).

            There should be no reason to right your own drivers, just hacking the drivers to *not* screw up the spanning should be enough.

            With luck, it'd just be 1 byte.

            You'll be wanting to find a good disassembler, and learn PPC asm ;)
  • People. The terminology is not called monitor spanning. Apple has had multi monitor support since the late 80's. Just turn your machine off, plug another card in, hook up a monitor and reboot. Then open the monitors control panel and arrainge your monitors. This is simply "multiple monitor support" and should be called such. In 1991, I had 4 monitors on my MacII FX just to see if it could be done.

    I do have a mac g3 500 powerbook and a g3 266 powerbook and multiple monitor support is only provided on the g3 500. If you have a pci slot, I bet you could get a pci video card, something I'd love to do. I really want to be able to have 3 monitors on my laptop.

    Remember "Multiple Monitor Support."
    Thanks.
    • Heh, I totally agree with you (and I'm the one who posted this question =p). Problem is, everyone else seems to call it monitor spanning these days, so if you want to search for any info on the subject, that's what you need to search for. I figure if i used that term people who were trying to search for info to help me out would have an easier time.
    • Multiple monitor support has been around a lot earlier than that, I've used it since the MacSE with the Radius 20" b+w monitor adaptor (via a coax cable). It allowed both screens to be used just like now.
    • IIRC, Monitor Spanning is the special case of Multiple Monitor Support where you have displays with the same geometry and color depth settings, with one big rectangular desktop.

      I've got a nice little setup going with a 15" monitor in 16-bit mode at 1024x768 positioned off the bottom left corner of my main 21" 1280x1024 32-bit mode main display. I use the tiny one for full-time e-mail. That's multiple monitor suppport as I understand it. I'm not sure about Windows, but X's Xinerama has only begun to know how to deal with this, since the port of XFree86 to OSX made it necessary. Macs, of course, have had no trouble doing it since a mac with slots was introduced. ('86?)
    • The problem is iThings don't have multi-monitor support, they just have display mirroring...

      yes, multi-monitor support is even better than the normal spanning, but in the context of this discussion, they are the same thing.

  • Spaning isn't the main prob. Extr Monitor rez is. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by acomj ( 20611 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @05:11PM (#4115070) Homepage
    Apple seems to have made the consumer models non-spanning (imac,emac, ibook). If you look at the specs of the models on apple's web page it says mirroring only.

    IThe ibook doesn't allow spanning AND you can't increase the resolution on an external monitor past what the ibooks flat panel is. It's a great little portable machine, but lowsy if you can only run the 19"inch monitor at the same resolution as the flat panel.

    I like apple, but intentionally hobbling there machines like this is inexcusable. I won't buy a new one until they change there ways.
  • I inhereted one of the newer model ibooks, and promptly ditched Mas OS for YDL. I don't use it much, but when I saw this thread I figured i'd be a good place to ask if the multi monitor would work using linux (yellow Dog or another PPC version) since it seems to have been neutered from Apple's offerings.

  • Copy the driver from a PowerBook onto your iMac (Score:4, Interesting)

    by 2nd Post! ( 213333 ) <gundbear@@@pacbell...net> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @06:32PM (#4115611) Homepage
    Copy the drivers, first, in OS X.

    Then boot into console mode. Single user, as it were.

    Back up the originals, then copy over with the PowerBook drivers.

    I imagine this would work.

    If it doesn't, I guess you reinstall OS X?
    • Since I'm not familiar with the driver set up in OS X, where are the actual drivers located? Also, how would I get the drivers for a powerbook (I assume they are at least on the OS X install cd, if not on my hard drive)? Like I said, I don't really know much about OS X and how it's drivers are set up. Thanks
      • Well, on my PowerBook under /System/Library/Extensions there's ATIRage128.kext

        But I dunno how it is with the newer Radeon video cards, and what else is needed. I'm just speculating, for the experienced Unix/Linux hacker :)
        • I'd be willing to try that file, if you'll e-mail me [mailto] it.

          I have an iBook 600, late 2001 model, that have the older Rage video chipsets. I have read about someone getting these thing either spanning or at least outputting to the VGA port at a higher resoultion in XFree a while ago.

          I am running 10.2 now, however I'm willing to install 10.1.5 into a spare partiton to test this, if you're willing to e-mail me the file.

          Thanks in advance, Mr Post.
    • The iBook2 is almost two years old. I am quite sure that someone has tried this already, and so far, I haven't seen a single success story. (using any method)

  • SwitchResX (Score:5, Informative)

    by itwerx ( 165526 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @07:17PM (#4115818) Homepage
    Has anyone tried the OSX version of SwitchRes [madrau.com]? No guarantees but it fixes a number of OSX video settings "features".
  • I've been eagerly waiting for some Mac OS X guru to spit out the answer, but in the meanwhile perhaps some Linux guru can tell us how we'd do this in XWindows? Maybe we could try and hack it in Darwin w/ X11.

    For those who have posted that it seems that Apple wouldn't do this deliberately, I believe the point of the article is that they have. If you steal the right components from certain versions of OS 9, *poof*, you've got monitor spanning on iBook hardware. This is a limitation created by software -- purposefully. The extensions the link has you moving around are similar to trading for different versions of dll's on Windows, and basically the hack makes OS 9 treat the iBook hardware in a more generic, non-disabled fashion.

    I haven't tried the OS 9 hack on my 'book just yet, but if the page ain't lying, Apple has disabled spanning on the iBook in software though the hardware could do it. Wouldn't be the first time Apple didn't want you to access hardware that's in your system -- remember when Apple removed the Mezzanine slot from the Rev. C (iirc) iMac so that you couldn't install a Voodoo2 any more?

    And isn't a Celeron chip just a Pentium III with a poor yield? Intel just smacks out half the cache and *poof*, same chip in a lower price range -- great for over-clocking once you learn that's what's going on (though my 533 didn't behave). And there was also the PDA with flash-rom disabled in a recent /. story.

    Point is, yes Virginia, companies purposefully disable or don't advertise features of hardware quite often so that they can pitch it to a "lower niche audience". But danged if I don't enjoy my iBook anyway. :^)

  • Apple isn't the only company... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by batobin ( 10158 ) on Thursday August 22, 2002 @12:00AM (#4116872) Homepage
    There are a lot of people criticizing Apple for purposefully limiting this feature. To these people I would point out the fact that Apple isn't the only company to do this. For example, processor companies sell thousands of chips that are identical, except for their clockrate. Many processor batches are so stable that they can be turned into whatever people will pay for. In fact, Intel used to take a batch of Pentium 2 chips, give half of them half as much L2 cache, and sell them as Celerons. At heart, however, they were still just Pentium 2s.

    Apple's no better than the rest of the industry, but they certainly aren't any worse.
    • Chip companies doing this aren't necessarily "purposefully limiting features". In all likelyhood, the Celeron is really a P2 that failed diagnostics on half the cache. So, basically, the chip is bad so you have a choice as Intel - toss it in the trash or disable the area of the cache that is bad and sell it for less money. The lower clock rate chips are chips that, for whatever reason, didn't check out right at the higher clock rates. When we get prototype chips back for our stuff, we often find that they all run at fine at slightly different clock rates . Let's say we were shooting for a chip that runs at 100MHz (obviously, we are running faster than that in real life) - some of the chips may run fine at 110MHz while others may not work above 90MHz.


      The point is, Intel probably is selling "failed" chips as Celerons or slower chips. I believe the 486SX was a 486DX where the floating point pipe failed diags.

      • True, a lot of batches of chips are better suited towards certain clockrates. But stable chips, like I mentioned in my post, can usually be flexible. Low MHz G3s were like this. They marked them as whatever consumer demand dictated. Sometimes they split batches that behaved identically half and half.

        I'm sure other chip makers do the same thing.

  • Just recently we had a discussion at the University about how to run a PowerBook with the lid closed. It wouldn't be the same as multi-monitor support, but it would be interesting if you could exceed the iBook's resolution max.

    To try, attach a USB keyboard & mouse to the machine and put it to sleep. Attach the monitor and then use the keyboard to wake it. The iBook's LCD display should be disabled with the external becoming the primary.

  • This would be extremely hard to do; the drivers are proprietary and as such I don't believe they are in the Darwin "project." You would have to reverse engineer something, or better yet, find similar drivers (for this chipset) in other projects.

    It couldn't hurt to poke around in Darwin though...

  • some info for you (Score:3, Informative)

    by Alcimedes ( 398213 ) on Thursday August 22, 2002 @09:26AM (#4118435)
    first, this is possible. monitor spanning can and has been done on iBooks under OS9 and OSX.

    seems it's a software limit in the OS for the hardware.

    try this site [macparts.de] for an account of someone who's done it.
    • fyi, there is something similar to tomeviewer on osx: reviewpkg! (might be helpful to poke around in the os x ati driver stuff, and it's cool anyway ...)

      you can get it here [versiontracker.com]

    • first, this is possible. monitor spanning can and has been done on iBooks under OS9 and OSX.

      Can you back that up with a link? I haven't seen a single success story for OS X, this is hardly what I would call "has been done".

  • The pref to enable this feature is stored in the following file: ~/Library/Preferences/ByHost/com.apple.windowserve r.[random hex value].plist

    On my system, the file is com.apple.windowserver.003065f5a262.plist

    If you have the Developer Tools installed, you can use the Property List Editor, which is in /Developer/Applications to edit this file. Unfortunately, instead of just having something that tells it to mirror or span, there is a ton of really complicated information about each monitor connected to the system in there. If you want a copy of mine, send me an email, but let me know the resolutions you're running first, because if you don't, you'll have stuff going off the edge of your iBook's screen, and your external will be set to 1280x1024.

    • Re:Where this pref is stored (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      i can provide any brave or curious souls with plist files for the following:

      ibook @ 1024x768: single
      ibook @ 1024x768 75Hz: mirrored
      radeon 8500 @ 1024x768 75Hz: single
      radeon 8500 @ 1024x768 75Hz: mirrored
      radeon 8500 @ 1024x768 75Hz: spanned

      with a little trouble i could do 2 rage128's instead of the single 8500, but i'm not sure that'd be anymore telling.

      would this be helpful to anyone? just reply and i'll email them to you. i want this to work soooooooo bad....
  • I've been told the Raedeon chip on the iBook itself is not a stock, off the shelf chip - the spanning is actually disabled on a hardware level, on the chip itself (maybe they're cheaper/smaller this way?)

    I wouldn't believe anyone that say theyve gotten that working on the iBook 'till I see the code to do it.
  • Let Apple know about the demand and sign the petition [petitiononline.com]!

    Might as well get it done officially if we can...
  • I have a 700Mhz ibook with radeon, and on two occasions monitor spanning has occured, apparently as a bug.
    What I did was the following (although I've not been able to recreate it reliably): After booting the ibook, I plug in the vga adaptor cable. Then I plug the vga cable into it - while the monitor is turned off. At this point (or when the adaptor was plugged in? Don't know for sure) the ibook display switches to 800x600 50Hz (as when connecting a pal television). I then turn on the monitor, and select detect displays from the display menu in the menu bar. (Note, this is under OS 10.2 Jaguar) Voila! The external monitor extends my desktop.

    I put a screenshot here [mac.com].
  • You can get multiple monitors working for a few seconds if you boot up your iBook in verbose mode (Command - V). While the console is displayed on the main monitor, the external monitor is greyed out. Not turned off, but grey. So the iBook is clearly drawing *something* different on the external monitor. Once the Finder starts loading, the screens sync up though.

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