Teaching the Trackpad New Tricks? 110
An anonymous reader asks: "I'm seriously considering buying a PowerBook. The design is gorgeous and OS X will give me a Unix-based operating system without having to sacrifice main-stream comercial applications. What's holding me back? The trackpad. I'm a fan of the ThinkPad-style joystick, but my Dell laptop came with touchpad drivers that provide useful features like the ability to scroll by sliding your finger along the edge of the pad. That was enough to make me switch to the touchpad on the Dell, but, I can't find anything similar for the PowerBook. I found references to Overdrive, but it appears to only work with USB devices. Are there any other drivers out there that add more functionality to the trackpad? If not, is that because no one has done it yet, or is it because the APIs do not exist to do such a thing? Thanks."
Re:Priorities? (Score:2)
Re:Priorities? (Score:2)
I'd say it's reasonable.
mouse (Score:3, Informative)
I know it isnt what you are looking for, but even the scrolling drivers that i have for my synaptics pad dont do that great of a job, and end up being more hassle than they are worth
there are a lot of nice mice out there, including mini mice that do a nice job
Kensington pocket pro [kensington.com] this mouse has a retracting cord, and it works perfectly
Re:mouse (Score:2, Informative)
The problem is that when I hold the mouse button down, it occaisionally 'forgets', and behaves as though I just clicked again. This happens both in aqua and when I am in rootless X, and does not happen when I use my logitech mouse. =\
I wish I could get it fixed.
Re:mouse (Score:1)
Re:mouse (Score:1)
Whatever happened.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:2)
Maybe Apple just made a better one than the competitors.
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:1)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:2, Informative)
I quote: "The Pansonic A3 has been introduced to replace the Panasonic B5. Its appeal is to people who have always remained partial to a trackball pointing device. (To that end, a set of five different colored trackballs is included with the package.) Although there is nothing wildly exciting about the A3, it is a product of Panasonic Japan. And like all notebooks from Panasonic Japan, quality is impeccable."
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:2)
The reason that trackballs stop being included in laptops is because they were more of a mechanical liability. They were magnets for dust, dirt, hair, etc. -- just like the ball on a mouse. Trackpads, by comparison, are a much lower liability.
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:1)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:1)
Second, it added an inch to the thickness of the machine. A PB1xx trackball, when placed beside a TiBook, is taller, I believe. At best, it's about the same height.
Recall that a trackball requires at least a little space below the ball. It also requires that the case be completely inflexible with a pretty sizable clearance above the ball to prevent the trackball from shattering the LCD panel. Either that or go back to huge borders around the LCD, your choice....
Long story short, the trackpad is a big part of why modern laptops can be half as thick and weigh a quarter as much as their trackballed predecessors.
my Mac keyboard trackpad does this (Score:4, Informative)
I have an Adesso "TruForm" keyboard with a built-in trackpad, under OS X, and it has the feature you describe. I threw me off at first, I was a little miffed that I couldn't use the full area of the pad for movement, but now I'm with you- being able to scroll via the right hand side of the trackpad is a great feature!
Note that "It Just Works". There are/were no drivers to install, nothing, just plugged in the USB keyboard and trackpad away...
Re:my Mac keyboard trackpad does this (Score:1)
- mac os x automatically downloads the relevant drivers as it 'recognizes' the device
- said functions are already part of the os (eg. plug in a two-button mouse and it 'just works' w/o needing to dl. anything (the mouse-wheel scroll function is a bit questionable though)
in any event, either option is very promising in terms of realising this 'properly'
.
Re:my Mac keyboard trackpad does this (Score:1)
There's a group of devices called USB human interface devices (referred to as HID devices for short) that includes mice, keyboards, etc. Any USB device that acts like a keyboard or a pointing device should fall into that category.
USB HID devices have a set standard for communication that includes things like multiple buttons, scroll wheels, etc. Since the requirements for a driver for such devices are clearly spelled out, any keyboard or mouse or similar should "just work" out-of-the-box, OS bugs or device firmware bugs (or both) notwithstanding.
Re:my Mac keyboard trackpad does this (Score:1)
I'm about 99% sure that there's no way to add this support at the driver level. I don't know about the electrical interfaces and whether there's enough information at the PMU level to add such support by changing the PMU firmware or if you'd actually have to change the firmware of the trackpad itself (assuming that it has firmware to update... I have no idea).
To make a long story short, though, it's very unlikely that this is something that could be done by anyone other than an Apple engineer (and possibly not without hardware changes). It would certainly not be as simple as creating a new driver.
Track pad vs. Trackball (Score:2, Informative)
The nice thing about OS X is that it supports two button mice/trackballs natively, so the second button will function ! right out of the box. I have a G4 Sawtooth at home. I'm using a Kensington Turbo Mouse PRO with it. The software that Kensington makes for it gives it functionality I find quite helpful when dealing with large projects using productivity software. The only reason that I've gone with the Logitech Marble Mouse for my Pismo is that the Turbo Mouse is just two bulky for convenience when transporting a laptop.
To conclude: I prefer a trackball over all other similar input devices. I find that I've no preference when it comes to mice, and track pads.
Your kilometerage may vary.
While we're at it... (Score:2, Interesting)
What I'd like to see is a way to map the track pad button to a right-click so I don't have to use a finger to hold the control key down when I'm not using my external (two-button, natch) mouse.
Re:While we're at it... (Score:1)
Some advice... (Score:4, Informative)
I may be wrong but the "scroll area" on the side of the dell is a hardware feature, rather than just software. As such, I doubt it will make it to the powerbook, as it breaks the metaphor, and apple does not like to break metaphors.
However, I do suggest you rent a powerbook for a month. Should cost you a hundred dollars or so. This is a good investment because if you spend $2,000 on your next computer you don't want to get the wrong one (where wrong may be the powerbook or may be another dell.)
I think you'll find after a period of adjustment that the advantages in usability (much of which is from not breaking the metaphor) and other nice things about OS X will far outweight the lack of the "scroll touch pad".
For what its worth, I use an external 3 button mouse (Even though it breaks the metaphor-- I like it for games that don't have the metaphor to be broken) and the scroll wheel works fine.
In Jaguar there's even a new UI for setting the sensitivity of the scroll wheel. Apple totally supports three button and complex mice, but won't ship them for good reasons.
If there isn't a hardware component to the scroll-trackpad, then you could, theoretically, write a kernel extention to add this functionality.
I think,though, you'll find other things compensate for lack of this feature while mobile. (While not mobile, an external trackpad or trackball can be plugged in.)
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
OK, I'll bite. What are the reasons?
-margaret
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
I also read somewhere (sorry, don't recall where) that two button mice are subjectively faster, but objectively slower.
dalamcd
Re:Some advice... (Score:2, Insightful)
I can probably find a study that says that alphabetically organized keyboards are faster too, but it doesn't make it true for people who know how to use qwerty. The fact is that a person experienced in multi-button use is going to be more efficient using one compared to a single button mouse.
Thinking of the simple "cut and paste" in X-windows, I don't see how the heck a "mouse highlight" command-c two-step three-key/button operation on the mac is faster than X's one-step operation.
Back in the days of the original PC keyboard layout, I explained to a one-armed co-worker that you needed to do a ctrl-alt-delete to reboot - A task that required him to use a pencil in his mouth for the final button. He was not pleased. Four letter words were heard throughout the office whenever the PC locked up. He would NOT enjoy using a system with a single mouse button.
My Sony vaio had a touchpad with the scrolling feature, and that would be nice to have on my g4 mac. If only apple didn't know more about what I want / need than I myself do, things would be better.
Re:Some advice... (Score:2)
How is being a mac user (as well as linux and windows) but hating some of the moronic decisions (one button mouse) apple makes being a troll? Considering that almost EVERY SINGLE third party mouse for the mac has more than one button, and EVERY die-hard mac fan I know has a multi-button mouse, my opinions are NOT the minority.
Maybe if I replaced "apple" with "microsoft" my post would be labeled "insightful"?
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Nah, that would just be confusing.
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Apple's opinion? Hardly. (Score:2, Interesting)
> everyone is a fucking idiot.
Nope. It's NOT the result of some random and arbitrary opinion of some miscelaneous yahoo at Apple. It's the result of Jef Raskin's research [vwh.net] on human interfaces when he was at Xerox PARC.
You about know Xerox PARC, Right? The place that invented the GUI, and inspired Apple, in the first place. And Raskin's research there showed that even the PARC researchers routinely had difficulty with the original three-button mouse. They regularly made mouse-button errors, causing Raskin to actually do the research, and develop a superior alternative. And remember, we're not talking about "joe blow at CompUSA" here. PARC was filled with computer scientists and PhDs. And even THEY routinely had those mouse button errors.
From the article I linked:
Apple is not ALL smoke and mirrors, contrary to what the MS drones would have you believe. They're one of the VERY few computer companies out there that actually bothers to do human interface research. Try reading the "Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines" sometime. They're the result of a LOT of research in human factors; rathar than some random programmer deciding on his own how he'd like the interface to work THIS time.
cya,
john
Re:Some advice... (Score:2)
Er, there's a perfectly good control and alt within one-handed reach of the delete key.
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
There is now, yes. But twenty-or-so years ago, there wasn't. I forget the exact details, but one or the other of CTRL and ALT was only on the left-hand side of the keyboard, while DEL was only on the right. IBM probably picked CTRL-ALT-DEL because, with that layout, it was very hard to press that combination accidentally. Bear in mind that in those days, CTRL-ALT-DEL didn't bring up a dialogue box asking which program you wanted to kill. It rebooted straightaway, no questions asked, so pressing it accidentally wasn't something you could recover from.
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Back in the days of the original PC keyboard layout, I explained to a one-armed co-worker that you needed to do a ctrl-alt-delete to reboot - A task that required him to use a pencil in his mouth for the final button. He was not pleased. Four letter words were heard throughout the office whenever the PC locked up. He would NOT enjoy using a system with a single mouse button.
So tell him to turn on Easy Access, or whatever Apple's "disability-assisting" software thingie is. In your friend's case, he can just presses the Control key once, and it stays "held" so he can use the mouse to send right-click signals to the computer.
Geez, bitching because someone wants to make things easy and consistent for newbies. How original. I imagine you go to auto dealerships and grouse that you can't put the accelerator on the left because you drive better that way, eh?
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Having two or three buttons on top of a mouse is nuts. Your finger slips, and you're pulling down a contextual menu. You move the wrong finger and... blam.
Having one button on top and one on each side, however, works nicely. Since the thumb and pinkie finger are naturally dormant during mousing, your brain is much less likely to inadvertantly cause one of them to click when you meant to click with a normal clicking finger on top of the mouse.
It's all about design, design, design.
Re:Some advice... (Score:1)
Not gonna happen (Score:5, Informative)
Unless a lot of secret Apple documentation suddenly falls into my lap... if you have such secret documentation, please don't hesitate to send it to me
A little background:
The Trackpad on apple laptops (as well as the keyboard), are pseudo-ADB devices. Still. Even after ADB was supposted to be dead years ago.
I say pseduo because Apple employees claim that the hardware really isn't ADB, but it acts like one as far as the OS is concerned (at the mouse/trackpad driver level. lower down, the situation may be different).
Because of this, from the level of the ADB Mouse Driver, it looks and behaves exactly like those old Apple Extended mice (except for a few additions, such as tap-click, drag, etc). The standard ADB Extended Mouse Protocol, (as documeneted in the Apple Technote 'Space Aliens Ate My Mouse'), only reports relative movements of the pointer, as a normal mouse would.
There is no mechanism for getting the absolute location of the users finger, rather than the relative movement. Without that, you can't remap part of the trackpad to be a scroll area.
Re:Not gonna happen (Score:1, Informative)
everything since uses USB
Re:Not gonna happen (Score:1)
Re:Not gonna happen (Score:1)
hold "fn" and move your finger. This would not require you to know the position on the pad, just the x,y movement (or y, for vertical only scrolling).
Re:Not gonna happen (Score:1)
I understand Joy [aaa-plus.com] can be a decent substitute sometimes.
Re:Not gonna happen (Score:1)
Get the drivers (Score:4, Interesting)
Have a look at the code the reads x and y values from the trackpad. If they values sent from the trackpad are absolute x,y locations then it's trivial to patch the code. If they're relative you may still be able to set the trackpad into absolute mode. (I wrote code to do this for the Versapad under FreeBSD after obtaining details on setting it to absolute mode from the manufacturers - but the Versapad may have been unusual to support absolute mode).
HERE'S A CHALLENGE (Score:2)
What, you think I'm going to tote my iBook *AND* a graphire? Nope.
I won't even ask for credit for the idea - no way this is an original thought.
Re:HERE'S A CHALLENGE (Score:1)
Hey it doesn't --- Why is that?
Re:HERE'S A CHALLENGE (Score:2)
does a palmpilot type stylus --not work? I'm curious -I'm going to check now. Hey it doesn't --- Why is that?
I believe it's because the trackpad works by electrical conductivity. When you touch the pad, you reduce the resistance of the pad in that area because your finger conducts electricity slightly, and the pad uses that to work out where your finger is.
Annoyingly, something metal doesn't work either, presumably because the pad ignores partiularly low resistances on purpose.
HERE'S A SOLUTION (Score:1)
Use the Command key (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Use the Command key (Score:1)
Re:Go TrackPoint (Score:1)
I can't stand trackpads either and always prefer trackpoints.
As for the scrolling features of that Dell trackpad, the trackpoint on my Sony subnotebook does one better:
Holding down the middle-mouse button and moving the trackpoint keeps the cursor fixed but causes the current window to scroll.
Words really can't describe how useful it is; you just have to try it. (And on this subnotebook's tiny screen, you need to scroll a lot.) I suppose it's similar to the Universal Scroll capabilities provided by some mouse software, but it works much better.
Re:Go TrackPoint (Score:1)
but the trackpad is slightly indented, I wonder if a cover is a product apple make.
wonder if I'd be rich if I marketed them.
Re:Go TrackPoint (Score:1)
IMHO it's not an issue (Score:1)
Powerbook keyboard design. (Score:2)
The arrow keys on the powerbook are on the lower-right corner of the screen, and pgup/pgdn are the fn modified versions of them.
Because IE supports scrolling the view by just holding down the arrow key, and it's so darned easy to use fn+up/down arrow to page up/down in other applications (or IE for fast 'scrolling') I think you may find that you can live without that mini mini scroll area.
Here is a workaround (Score:1)
I would really like to see Apple or anyone implement this. Until then here is what I do: use the up and down arrow keys. The arrow keys aren't very far from the trackpad so it will just require some re-education of your hands. Which just goes to show how hard it is to switch from one platform to another.
I'll take this moment to rant a bit on Apple's lack of attention to keyboard navigation. At first I thought the problem was my newness with the platform but after six months I still find myself relying too heavily on the mouse. Anyone know how to cycle amoung open windows from the keyboard?
Re:Here is a workaround (ot) (Score:1)
Anyone know how to cycle amoung open windows from the keyboard?
In both OS9 and X, you can just hit apple(command)-tab. similar to the windows alt-tab, except that OS9 will switch as soon as you hit tab, and X will wait until you release the apple key.
Interesting thing is that it seems that Apple ~ (actually, it's really the ` key) is becoming the standard for switching between windows within a an application.
Mouse thoughts (Score:1)
I use a $9.95 (on sale) handheld (well finger held) trackball from CompUSA The "trigger" is button one and buttons two and three are on top, the trackball being manipulated with your thumb. With practice you can type while still maintaining a grip on the thing, but I usually only do short sequences that way, puting it down when large amounts of typing are to be done (finger RTS otherwise?). It shares the bag with my Auto/airline lind power supply nicely. It is quite convienient. Overdrive and it should give you what you want.
Thank the USB organizations definition of the HID devices protocol for giving you the seeming mirical of "it works right out of the box without any drivers" as the default drivers often work "good enough". I am typing away on an unsupported Logitech wireless keyboard (and using a wireless trackball) through my USB KVM switch and it all "just works". Standards good. Beer bad.
A Wacom Graphire Tablet works for me. (Score:1)
probably firmware (Score:2)
Some pointing devices can be switched into other modes ("absolute", "pressure", etc.) with non-standard protocols. I somehow doubt this can be done for the Mac, though.
Too bad that Macintosh comes with only one pointing device and a single button. Most people I know would much prefer something else, as well as a three-button mouse. With a desktop, it doesn't matter since people just plug in whatever keyboard and mouse they like (I can't remember the last time I actually have seen anybody use an Apple mouse), but with a laptop, there is no choice.
Re:Handhelds? (Score:1)
Re:Handhelds? (Score:1)
Re:Handhelds? (Score:1)
Re:Handhelds? (Score:2)
And nobody would criticise that.
Seriously, tps12 seems to be implying that Apple is getting some kind of free ride in the slashdot forums...anyone who thinks that should have his head examined. Apple takes tons of abuse (deserved and undeserved) in these forums. It's the Linux / open source camp that gets the free ride.
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:1)
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:1)
Aren't all Microsoft mice just rebranded HP mice?
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:1)
I waited a couple more months for Intellipoint software to come out and then my back and forward history buttons on the mouse started working too.
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:1, Offtopic)
I think you're wrong. I believe, but I don't know for sure, that Microsoft mice work with PCs and Windows boxes as well as REAL computers.
They do work with Real computers though, quite nicely. (Where REAL = UNIX, including Mac)
Oh, and they work with Mac OS 9 as well.
Re:Why don't you just get a REAL laptop... (Score:2)
How is a comment about windows mice working with Unix computers "offtopic" when the topic is a trackpad on a mac as compared to dell, and its alternatives?
We got a moderation problem here. Hope someone catches it in metamod.
Re:Sorry, I should have said:... (Score:1)
So perhaps there are other reasons people have stayed with intel than backward compatability.
Besides, you can run most "legacy" pc aps on a mac via a PC emulator just fine.
Re:Sorry, I should have said:... (Score:1)
When Apple first released machines with PowerPC chips, just about the entire OS ran in emulation. In fact, parts of the MacOS were emulated until OS 9, the first PowerPC-only release. And, even on the first machines, the emulated code ran faster than it would have natively on machines of those times.
Re:Why don't you remember Monday's article... (Score:2)
This is funny. A company that doesn't even know what the job title of "Designer" means... and even has managed to make EVERY gui they've released totoally butt ugly is "better" than the products from the one computer company who's influenced global fashions with its computer designs, and consistently beat every other manufacturer on quality comparisons?
Microsoft doesn't make bad hardware-- its one of the few divisions that does good work. The natural keyboard was an excellent product. But its just stupid to claim that Apples hardware is shit-- everyone knows otherwise, even those who hate macs.
Rise Above Your Name (Score:2)
Failing that you should at least endeavor to rise above your current name.
Re:Why don't I realize... (Score:1)
Albiet I didn't get to read the deleted posts but having seen just the titles in the subject headers of the replies I've got to ask: do you know what the job of "moderator" is? It is not "censorship" to delete posts which have nothing to do with the subject at hand. The post didn't ask some "1337 |-|@x0r" for his opinion on why linux/windows/dell/whatever was better than a Powerbook running OS X - the post asked if there were any utilities to alter the functions of the trackpad on an laptop running OS X. There is no place in this thread for "Get a Real Laptop" posts, they are off topic and should be removed. That is not "censorship" as you put it, it is called a "moderated discussion."
There are plenty of places for you weenies to whine about the superiority of your particular brand of hardware/software and, frankly, I (and most others here) could really not care less what you think. I'm happy with MY choices, you're happy with you choices - outside of that what is your fucking point? I guess like guys buying huge pickup trucks, this is the geek form of coping with having a small penis?
With all of this suppression of the truth, no wonder we need fine organizations like the BSA, RIAA and MPAA. Keep up the good work, boys!
In case you didn't notice, your logic train derailed somewhere around the point where you clicked "Reply to This." Just thought I'd let you know...
Re:Why don't I realize... (Score:1)
Remember when you were an obnoxious little kid (look around, you probably still are one), and people used to beat you up? Did you hang around with those people after that, and invite further beatings?
In case you don't get the picture yet: If you want to be an asshole, fine, but we don't like assholes, and you should go elsewhere.
In case you can ony think in single syllables I'll try a third form: Leave!
Re:Why don't I realize... (Score:2)
No, no! Don't you see, this guy is the best thing that's happened to Mac evangelism in a long, long time. If the PC fanatics argue that Macs are more expensive, or that they have fewer games available, they come off sounding reasonable. You actually have to refute their arguments to get people to see reason.
But guys like this make claims like "Microsoft's hardware is better than Apple's!" That kind of statement is obviously false on its face, even to the most uncritical reader. One glance at that kind of bull leads even the most jaded person to the obvious conclusion: "Hey, maybe I should go check out the Apple store."
Re:Sorry, I should have said:... (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank you for the clarification.